This category was nominated for deletion on 20 May 2022. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This category does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I am of course referring to this. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Category:North_American_Jews&diff=920962885&oldid=920733399
I am ambivalent on the Asian diaspora parent cat, but there is no reason to remove the Middle Eastern one. The Jewish diaspora originates in Israel, which is in the Middle East. That's not an opinion. That's a fact verified by reams upon reams of scholarship, including every single peer-reviewed DNA paper released over the past 30 years. Therefore, syllogistically speaking, the Jewish diaspora is a Middle Eastern diaspora. That is why we are called 'diaspora Jews' in every country except Israel. This really shouldn't be controversial at all.
User:Debresser's insistence that "not all Jews are of Middle Eastern descent" is not good enough and, for the most part, not even true. One, with the exception of recent converts, who collectively make up less than 1% of the total Jewish population, all Jews are of Middle Eastern descent. 1% is not enough to remove a category. Two, even if that weren't the case, removing it would still be inconsistent with Wikipedia's wider categorization scheme. For instance, Irish people are categorized under "Celtic people". /info/en/?search=Category:Irish_people. Does that mean everybody in Ireland is a Celt? Does it mean recent immigrants to Ireland from India or Africa are Celts? Obviously not. Is everybody in Britain "Germanic", as this category ( /info/en/?search=Category:English_people) suggests? Again, the answer is no.
Then you have the claim that Ashkenazi Jews are not "really" Middle Eastern, either because they are "phonies" or have been away for "too long". This argument is similarly inconsistent, and borders on blatant anti-Semitism (denying Jewish heritage/identity, as well as applying double standards to Jews, would certainly qualify). The Romani are still categorized as South Asians, even though they've been in Europe for roughly as long as Jews have. Chinese-Singaporeans and Chinese-Malays are categorized as Chinese despite living in those countries since the Middle Ages, if not earlier. I could go on and on.
I don't see these arbitrary guidelines applied anywhere else except here, and I'd really like to know why.
It could also be pointed out that if "not all Jews are Middle Eastern", than the "North American people by ethnic or national origin" category doesn't belong here either. After all, not all Jews are ethnic Jews. That tiny, minuscule percentage of converts isn't ethnically Jewish in any way. So if we're going by the logic that a category is inapplicable unless it applies to "all" within it, why don't we remove that as well? The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 14:31, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
Furthermore, "this has been discussed" is a semantic stop sign. It is not valid reason for gatekeeping a category, or enforcing a parent cat's removal. That you obtained a "consensus" (and I'm using scare quotes here because most voted to keep the category, not to remove it) favorable to your own POV years back does not preclude us from revisiting the topic again in the future. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not WP:Consensus. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 14:34, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
If Jews are not a founding Middle East people, how are their ancient relics e.g the Dead Sea Scrolls and Temple Mosaics still being found in the Middle East (modern Israel) from 2,600 years ago? < https://mfa.gov.il/MFA/IsraelExperience/History/Pages/Archeologists-restore-flooring-from-second-temple-courtyard-in-Jerusalem-9-September-2016.aspx> Masses and masses of archeological evidence abounds < http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/links/Archaeology.htm> In addition there is no significant difference between Ashkenazi populations dispersed to Europe and Mizrachi populations dispersed to the Arab world in terms of genetics, culture, linguistic roots and so on as proven by recent DNA studies. Jews are part of the Middle East diaspora and any efforts to remove this link would be strange to the point of unique bias. < https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3543766/> CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 15:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
I absolutely agree that Ashkenazi is Jew and is Middle Eastern. Akiva Bernake ( talk) 15:41, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
There is no question that Jews are a founding Middle Eastern people and there is no significant difference between Ashkenazi Jews who were dispersed and Mizrachi Jews who stayed in the Middle East in terms of genetics, culture or language roots. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 15:49, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
You could not be more wrong. Every Jew who marries has a Ketuba - it's a document checked by a rabbi and verified in front of 10 members of the community saying who the parents are. Every male child has a brit mila (checked) and every death is checked. We have always been a highly literate and documenting people. There have been tiny numbers of proselytes - both because we don't accept converts and because it was no pleasure to be Jew in Christendom; no one wanted in to the tribe, for sure! Apart from genetics, which prove 75% Levantine DNA across the entire Jewish population (including Ashkenazi) [1] there are ancient family names - Cohen, Levi (priests,) Benjamin, Judah... names that non Jews never take. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:14, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
2. Most Jews do not self-identify as being of Middle Eastern descent. I, for example, identify as being of Dutch descent. Without self-identification, Wikipedia should not use the category.
Because one person self identifies as Dutch, it does nothing to change the fact that Jews are a Middle Eastern people who are closely associated with Israel in daily prayers, customs, festivals and the Hebrew language. Europeans would tell us to "go back to your Palestine!" CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:16, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
3. Even if technically, many Jews are from Middle Eastern descent, this is from over 2,00 years (~100 generations) ago, and is not relevant to Wikipedia categorizing.
Jews have returned to what is now renamed Israel century after century. You may not know the history but most of us do. For example, the first printing press in the Middle East was built in 1577 in Safed and printed in Hebrew. [2] The Safed community and Jerusalem Jews had several working synagogues - the Rambam having been operational almost without cease since 1267. There are thousands of citations in libraries of European Rabbis turning to the superior knowledge of the parent, Middle Eastern communities and bringing Jews home where possible. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 23:05, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
We literally have our own bone marrow bank world wide because the mitrochondrial DNA is 75% Levantine (Middle Eastern) and Jews are more likely to get a medical match from other Jews than from ANY host population. [3] CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:19, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
4. This has been discussed intensively years ago, and there is a clear consensus not to have this category. 4. These categories were added by User:The Human Trumpet Solo on September 26 in this edit, and the consensus version of this page is without it. The burden of proof is therefore on him to show that there is consensus for this. Please note that consensus is established on all related categories. Category:People of Jewish descent, which is the parent category of this one, shows no Middle eastern category. 6. User:The Human Trumpet Solo was reported at WP:ANI in 2017 for edit warring about precisely this same issue (see User_talk:The_Human_Trumpet_Solo#WP:ANI), and he is at it again. Another editor also has warned him already on his talkpage (see User_talk:The_Human_Trumpet_Solo#Cat_removal). Debresser ( talk) 16:18, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
"Another editor also has warned him already on his talkpage". That was you. You simply refused to sign your name initially, presumably so that it would look like I have more people against me than I really do. The only other "warning" was from a similarly aggressive user whose antics recently got him topic-banned (and justifiably so). The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 12:33, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
You have some kind of personal issue that is against the vast bulk of Jewish opinion. Even Ashkenazim have, and have always had, family in the Middle East. To pretend Jews are not a founding Middle Eastern people, with the history (such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, ancient Jewish Temple mosaics and royal seals, synagogues of centuries and more turning up in the archaeology every week [4]) is, frankly, to disenfranchise us from reality. Most Jews would find this very insulting. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:26, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
"Jews are not from Middle Eastern descent"
Have any citations for this?
1. You should read what I wrote above, because I answered this point in great detail. To recap... "User:Debresser's insistence that "not all Jews are of Middle Eastern descent" is not good enough and, for the most part, not even true. One, with the exception of recent converts, who collectively make up less than 1% of the total Jewish population, all Jews are of Middle Eastern descent. 1% is not enough to remove a category. Two, even if that weren't the case, removing it would still be inconsistent with Wikipedia's wider categorization scheme. For instance, Irish people are categorized under "Celtic people". /info/en/?search=Category:Irish_people. Does that mean everybody in Ireland is a Celt? Does it mean recent immigrants to Ireland from India or Africa are Celts? Obviously not. Is everybody in Britain "Germanic", as this category ( /info/en/?search=Category:English_people) suggests? Again, the answer is no. Then you have the claim that Ashkenazi Jews are not "really" Middle Eastern, either because they are "phonies" or have been away for "too long". This argument is similarly inconsistent, and borders on blatant anti-Semitism (denying Jewish heritage/identity, as well as applying double standards to Jews, would certainly qualify). The Romani are still categorized as South Asians, even though they've been in Europe for roughly as long as Jews have. Chinese-Singaporeans and Chinese-Malays are categorized as Chinese despite living in those countries since the Middle Ages, if not earlier. I could go on and on. "
2. I'd like to see some statistics for that. Otherwise, it is just WP:ANECDOTE and WP:IDONTLIKEIT. You are free to identify however you please, but feelings mean nothing. And I don't see how acknowledging the Middle Eastern origin of Jews detracts in any way from your own identity, as if it is somehow in competition with pre-diasporic Jewish history.
3. I answered this already. Refer back to number 1.
4. One, WP:CCC. Two, the majority actually "voted" in favoring of keeping the category. It was only removed after you WP:HOUNDed an admin for his decision to keep it.
5. My adding the category was consisted with WP:BRD. You could've just reverted and then discussed, but instead you opted for gate-keeping and semantic stop signs (i.e. "this has been discussed"), ignoring WP:CCC.
6. That was 2 years ago. And if I recall, you were brought to ANI for the same exact reasons, as well as for emotionally-charged attacks and belligerent behavior. In fact, you are doing the same things again right now. You are now over well over the 3RR, last I checked. Now it looks as though you're also guilty of WP:Personal attacks and WP:BULLY. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:Rainbowofpeace&diff=921221448&oldid=915169507 The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 16:46, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Jews are not a race - we are an ethno nationalism - a group of people connected by Middle Eastern culture, Middle Eastern language (Hebrew,) 75% Middle Eastern genes. No one would say Sikhs were French in origin... or Yazidis who have fled as refugees to England are not clearly Middle Eastern. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:29, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Being Jewish is not genetically determined. That's a plainly racist viewpoint. A Jew is someone with a Jewish mother or someone who has converted to Judaism. If you are Reform, you would accept patrilineals as Jewish as well.
This is a nit picking argument based on a tiny percentage of the population and the recent emancipation of Jewry. In the last two millennia, the number of converts into Judaism has been miniscule. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:57, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
The claim that there are no differences between Ashkenazim and Mizrahim is absurd on its face, the terms of distinction wouldn't even exist if there weren't notable differences. "Mizrahi", furthermore, is a label of fairly recent usage and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with genetics. Bohemian Baltimore ( talk) 16:51, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Around 5% of Jews - some here, it seems - adhere to sophisticated arguments and nitpicking to say a whole range of things about Jewish identity in the diaspora. Out in the real world, no one ever thought Jews anything but a Middle Eastern people throughout history. Jews paid for their remains to go home century after century and there are 70 thousand Jewish graves from 3,500 years ago to today in Jerusalem - the Mount of Olives. [36] It would be biased in the extreme and, frankly, weird to divorce the majority of Jews from our Middle Eastern origins - especially based on the arguments of a few naysayers. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:37, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
"What is being "bitterly opposed" is explicitly racializing, ahistorical viewpoints that would be considered fringe scientific-racism by many Jews and non-Jews alike."
The fact that Jews are an ethnic group and that the vast majority of Jews have origins in the Middle East is hardly fringe. On the contrary, there's been an overwhelming genetic consensus on this for decades, and an overwhelming academic one for even longer than that. In fact, Jews have always self-defined this way.
"Despite the Southern Levantine origins of the Jewish people, Jewishness and Judaism has become a multi-faceted, multi-ethnic, multi-national, multi-racial religion and civilization that is absolutely not reducible to racially essentialist interpretations of genetics."
In other words, Jews can and did mix with outside populations, like almost every other ethnic group in existence. That's hardly news. My point is, it doesn't change a thing. However mixed one may be, or however strongly attached they are to their diaspora countries, the Middle Eastern descent is still there. My objection is that you appear to view descent/origins as something that can be swapped out or replaced on the fly, simply by settling somewhere else or by dint of intermarriage. It doesn't work that way, certainly not on any other article of this nature.
"You hugely diminish the number of gerim and their role throughout Jewish history."
Outside of Ethiopia, a brief period in ancient Rome, and in ancient Canaan itself, conversion was always rare. Hell, it's still rare. Even in North America. And the vast majority of Jews - all but 1% of global Jewry (if even that) - trace at least part, if not the majority, of their ancestry to ancient Israel. Hence, Middle Eastern diaspora in North America. The vast majority of us are not converts. Are gerim equally Jewish? Of course they are. But that doesn't invalidate the Middle Eastern descent of the Jewish diaspora writ large (which is what this category pertains to). Please refer back to my point about Irish and English people.
"I have no animosity towards secular Jews"
And why do you think secular Jews exist? Could it be that we're.... and ethnicity? Would secular Jews exist if Jews weren't an ethnicity? Hell no. If that were the case, I'd be able to trade in my Jew-card any time I want. But alas, I can't do that. Because it's not possible to change one's ethnicity.
"A substantial portion of Ashkenazi Jews, Beta Israel, and many others are the descendants of converts (mixed or otherwise)."
Ashkenazim, on average, are genetically more than half-Levantine. Without exception. They cluster in between Druze, Lebanese, and southern Europeans on PCA plots. So, Ashkenazim are indisputably Middle Eastern. They're European too (specifically Greek/Italian), but also Middle Eastern. Beta Israel descend primarily from converts, but all of them have Middle Eastern descent (albeit significantly less than that of other Jews). They are African and Middle Eastern.
See, one does not cancel out the other. Both can co-exist, and be acknowledged simultaneously.
"Many of the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews were European women (and men) who converted to Judaism and married Jews."
There were women who converted, but very few men. The Y-DNA line is solidly Middle Eastern. And those who did convert married into the larger Jewish (Middle Eastern) gene pool, and contributed to it. You act as though they outright replaced the original Middle Eastern population that set up colonies in Europe.
"And it's not a matter of "mixing" causing Middle Easternness to be "canceled out", it's a matter of numerous Jews not being from the Middle East and not being part of or identifying with Middle Eastern culture and identity. A Lithuanian Jew isn't Middle Eastern because they are from...Lithuania...not the ME. A Chinese Jew, also not from the Middle East. Chinese Jews are Chinese. Etc."
You contradicted yourself here. First, you say it doesn't cancel out their Middle Eastern. Then, in the same breath, you argue that it does. Which one is it?
As for "not being part of or identifying with Middle Eastern culture and identity", what do you think Jewish culture/identity is? It's literally southern Israelite culture, as preserved by Jews throughout the world and in Israel itself.
"Millions upon millions of diaspora Jews, historically and presently, identified/identify quite strongly with the culture or nation they were raised in and would scoff at the idea of being "Middle Eastern" as ridiculous."
Can you source this please? Because I highly doubt that "millions upon millions" number is accurate. From my experience, most Jews have no trouble at all acknowledging their Middle Eastern origins.
"Can individual non-MENA Jews identify with being Middle Eastern? Sure, go ahead, nobody's stopping you."
You can spin it however you want, but by zealously working to remove the Middle Eastern category from this page, that is precisely what you are doing. I mean, you just said point blank that Ashkenazi Jews are "not Middle Eastern". And for the countless Ashkenazim out there who do identify primarily (if not entirely) as Middle Eastern, you absolutely did deny their identity.
"But the desire to assert an inherent "Levantine" racial essence to Jews is, 1.) Explicitly racialist and promoting discredited 19th century-style pseudo race-science"
When you're done strawmanning and gaslighting me (and comparing peer-reviewed academic papers from less than a decade ago, as well as Wikipedia's own reliably-sourced articles on this same subject, to 19th century race scientists), you might want to go back and read my comments again. You claim you're not denying the Middle Eastern identity of Ashkenazi Jews, and yet here you are equating them with white nationalist pseudo-scientists.
"In all likelihood, a tired attempt to trumpet a very particular form of Zionist ideological propaganda while claiming that Zionist political viewpoint to be "the" objective Jewish viewpoint. This is all problematic, and yes, offensive to many Jews"
You are aware that 97% of the world's Jews are Zionists, right?
"who don't want their diasporic identities stripped away and erased,"
I'm not denying anyone's identity. I'm not the one removing categories and equating Jews who ID as Levantine to "racists" and "discredited pseudo-scientists". You and Debresser are the one's doing that, not me.
Adding on the "Middle Eastern diaspora" category in no way diminishes diaspora history. That is a ludicrous assertion.
"to have racist pseudoscience branded as "Jewish fact","
I cited quite a few RS here. Care to point out to me which of them constitute "racist pseudoscience"?
"and aggressive Zionist propaganda heralded as the voice of all Jews and Judaism"
Again, you are aware that 97% of the world's Jews are Zionists, right?
"Declaring all Jews to be "Middle Eastern" invalidates and erases both diasporic Jewish identities as well as Middle Eastern Jewish identities."
No, it doesn't. Acknowledging the Middle Eastern ethnic identity of Jews qua Jews does not entail invalidating diaspora identity, or vice versa. Believe it or not, it's possible be multiple things at once. These identities are not in competition with one another.
And the fact that you keep using the term "diasporic" here only proves my point. We are a diaspora. A diaspora = a subset of a population that lives outside of its indigenous homeland. Jews outside of Israel are, without exception, called diaspora Jews for a reason. Why? Because the Jewish diaspora is a Middle Eastern one. Hence, the "Middle Eastern diaspora in North America" category.
"If all Jews are "Middle Eastern", what are Jews from the Middle East? Middle Eastern Middle Eastern Jews?"
"Mizrahi Jews" works just fine. "Middle Eastern Jews" is a redundant and silly term.
"echo the tired old refrain that Jews in the diaspora are essentially foreigners who do not belong (Palestinians who wandered into Europe, to paraphrase that great friend of the Jews, Immanuel Kant)."
All you're doing is proving my point. You're gaslighting Jews who identify first and foremost with their Israelite origins and painting them as "racists" for doing so, all while refusing to acknowledge the reams upon reams of academic and DNA sources that are literally right in front of you, which verify the fact that, yes, we collectively originate in the Middle East. This really shouldn't be controversial.
"As for Ashkenazim being "phony" Jews or whatever, that is absolutely not my perspective."
You repeatedly denied their Middle Eastern identity/origins on this page. And on that Washington DC article too.
"As for the Romani, I would consider branding them as inherently "South Asian" as almost equally farfetched. The Romani are a global diaspora culture that has settled in a huge variety of countries and could be described as "European" just as easily, maybe even more easily, as they could be described as "South Asian." There are Romani of every imaginable skin color, nationality, language, religion, etc. I've met plenty of Roma who identify as white and/or European, for example. There are Arab and MENA Roma, Latino Roma, and so on. I don't want to argue endlessly about Roma identity, but referencing the Roma in regards to Jewish identity isn't very convincing to me. There's no double standard coming from me. I'm sure there are other similar diasporic populations I could point to."
And yet Romani are listed under "South Asian diaspora" on their respective categories, with zero objections from anyone. Jews are the ONLY population whose well-documented, well-supported ethnic origins are the object of bitter dispute. It's absolutely absurd and, frankly, racist.
"One last note: Jews who don't identify as "Middle Eastern" are not "denying Jewish heritage/identity", because being "Middle Eastern" is *not* the heritage or identity of non-MENA Jews who belong to and identify with diasporic cultures. I'm not sure if you are implying that Jews who don't identify as "Middle Eastern" are "bordering on blatant anti-Semitism", but it looks like you are advocating that view or something close to it."
Arguing that Ashkenazim are "inauthentically" Middle Eastern and applying double standards to Jews is antisemitic. That's what I said. You may take from that what you wish. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 01:59, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Ah, somehow I missed this one.
"Please note that consensus is established on all related categories. Category:People of Jewish descent, which is the parent category of this one, shows no Middle eastern category."
That's because you and your now topic-banned friend kept reverting anyone who tried to add it. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 13:11, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Furthermore, I've been quite vocal in the past on my belief that all Israeli settlements in the West Bank should be dismantled and evacuated, just like in Gaza. So I'm afraid your claim that I am a "Zionist operative" is misplaced. I'm simply puzzled as to why there is so much obscurantism at work vis a vis the Middle Eastern descent of most (and by "most", I mean upwards of 99%) modern Jews. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 13:18, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Localising the references (better if this section is archived). Specifying single column since there are lots of long quotes. -- Mirokado ( talk) 19:32, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
Jews-are-ethnoreligious-group
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Nicholson2002
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Neusner1991
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Dowty1998
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Abraham 2010
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Although Dio's figure of 985 as the number of villages destroyed during the war seems hyperbolic, all Judaean villages, without exception, excavated thus far were razed following the Bar Kochba Revolt. This evidence supports the impression of total regional destruction following the war. Historical sources note the vast number of captives sold into slavery in Palestine and shipped abroad. ... The Judaean Jewish community never recovered from the Bar Kochba war. In its wake, Jews no longer formed the majority in Palestine, and the Jewish center moved to the Galilee. Jews were also subjected to a series of religious edicts promulgated by Hadrian that were designed to uproot the nationalistic elements with the Judaean Jewish community, these proclamations remained in effect until Hadrian's death in 138. An additional, more lasting punitive measure taken by the Romans involved expunging Judaea from the provincial name, changing it from Provincia Judaea to Provincia Syria Palestina. Although such name changes occurred elsewhere, never before or after was a nation's name expunged as the result of rebellion.
JDB
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
Sorry, but this thread has become unreadable. @ User:CelebrateIsrael, I don't know exactly what is going on but this is not how comments should be replied to on a talk page. This conversation has becoming confusing and impossible to follow. Bohemian Baltimore ( talk)
What has become abundantly clear from the above discussion is that this recent edit has no consensus, and that it is opposed by knowledgeable editors with a plethora of good arguments. User:The Human Trumpet Solo, please comply with the relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and self-revert till such time as you obtain consensus. Debresser ( talk) 10:23, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
I also remind editors that this issue was discussed, and rejected, at Category_talk:Jews#Asian_people. Debresser ( talk) 10:26, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
it is a fact that Jews are an ethnoreligious tribal people whose origins are in the middle east. The genetic arguments are pretty much proven that they trace their origin as a people to the Levant. it is a fact that Judaism is the spiritual mode and method of those people and in the modern context there are a small percentage of converts however conversion is discouraged in Judaism. using the entire " there are some jews who aren't actually jewish" is a weak argument. There are people who follow Judaism who are not of Jewish ethnicity but again its a small percentage.
I think its a huge red flag that certain users spend so much time editing Jewish and Israeli topics and make the same arguments every time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingryan6966 ( talk • contribs) 01:10, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not avoid facts just because they seem controversial. Evolution, abortion, climate change and immigrant and LGBTQ issues are also controversial. That's why wikipedia must state the facts we have historical proof that the Jews are a Levantine people who lived in Israel and were directed into a DIASPORA by the Roman's. Now if you want me to start bringing sources I have several. -
Rainbowofpeace (
talk)
23:56, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Nobody is denying that Jews and Judaism originate from the Middle East. It is however not useful to add "Middle Eastern descent" and "Asian descent" to biographical categories about Jewish or Jewish-descent people. Jews have created their own identity and adding this millenium-old "descent" to every single Jewish category is overkill and serves absolutely no purpose. Jews are not the only diaspora group that has migrated in the last few thousand years. Will you add "Mongol descent" to every Native American category? "Central Asian descent" to every Slavic or Turkish people category? "South Asian descent" to every Indo-European category? "East African descent" to every human article in the encyclopedia? (After all, we are all homo sapiens.) This is a disruption of
Wikipedia's category system to make a very unclear
POINT. This has been discussed extensively on
Category talk:People of Jewish descent among others. Oh, and people arguing that most of the editors present disagreed with you
, you may notice the number of
single-purpose accounts attracted by this topic (see a new one that just
reverted me). I wonder which external forum is receiving alarming message about Wikipedia plotting to undermine Jewish or Israeli identity. If this is the case and if you are coming from there, you've been lied to.
Place Clichy (
talk)
16:52, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
Great to hear that you know that Jews are of Middle Eastern descent, but saying that you removed the categories that confirm that because in your eyes it makes little sense to place them there is not really credible considering how you are actively targeting and erasing those categories EVERYWHERE but placing for example Middle Eastern diaspora in Arab diaspora in North America. That is what I call trying to make a point! Also, the fact that Jews are of Middle Eastern descent may be something that you know, but a lot of people are in fact denying and erasing that identity or don't even know that when that is actually very important in current discussions, too. You are actively contributing to that misinformation giving questionable reasons. Categorising Jews in Middle Eastern descent is not wrong and not withholding or hiding that information is very important considering that it is put into question constantly for the sake of certain narratives and arguments. Why such a passion to remove it? (
Info Anonym (
talk)
17:41, 17 October 2019 (UTC))
Stop removing a category that is relevant and most of all true! I don’t see how it would bother someone so much to disconnect Jews and the Middle East, knowing there is a connection, to go around and delete the categories unless they have an ulterior motive. Jews descend from the Middle East, DNA tests prove that modern Jews are still overwhelmingly Middle Eastern, Jews rightfully consider themselves and identify as Middle Eastern, Jewish religion and culture originates and is closely tied to the Middle East e.g. religious Jews have always prayed and pray to Jerusalem every day which is and was in the Middle East and now the Jewish state has been reestablished in the Middle East again! Yes, of course, their middle eastern descent is important and valid! And even if you were to take that argument about the last generations into consideration, we can then make the point that by now the majority of Jews have been in the Middle East for generations again + the mizrahi and Sephardi jews who have been there even earlier! This category confirming the connection is important and relevant considering that people regularly deny it and use that denial of Jewish indigeneity and even just presence in the Middle East before the reestablishment of Israel as argument for its annihilation and illegitimacy. You literally bring no better argument forward than the fact that you personally (!) don’t deem it relevant. If you don’t undo it or leave it when I do or someone else does it, that ultimately only proves how you are just trying to make an argument. Possibly the one I mentioned before. ( Info Anonym ( talk) 03:18, 18 October 2019 (UTC))
So, first off, WP:TRUTH says that there should be reliable sources for added material. There are many reliable sources that prove that Jews are of middle eastern descent and very, very few contradicting ones, most disproven by now like the Khazar theory. And as I said, which you however ignored, there is scientific evidence through DNA tests that modern day Jews are still overwhelmingly Middle Eastern and the ones who are not - are not actually ethnically Jewish as "Jews" was literally the name given to the people that fled from and were expelled from Judea (hence their name). Unless you argue that (the ancient Jews) Israelites/Judeans are not even Middle Eastern your argument is not consistent.
Moreover WP:TRUTH says that you shouldn’t delete content just because you believe it to be untrue, either. Which is certainly the case with you considering all evidence speaks against the point you’re making that Jews are not Middle Eastern. And in this category talk most people already agreed on that.
"Jewish religion and culture originates and is closely tied to the Middle East“ and "people regularly deny it and use that denial of Jewish indigeneity and even just presence in the Middle East before the reestablishment of Israel as argument for its annihilation and illegitimacy“ - Your criticism towards those statements was that they don’t prove descent. They don’t because that is not what I made them for as nobody had actually been arguing Jewish Middle Eastern descent before you. Place Clichy was talking about how adding it everywhere is an overkill and serves absolutely no purpose. The discussion was about whether that is relevant or not. And as I and Jeffgr9 and others have shown - it is. It is an integral part of Jewish identity. Genetically AND culturally. It has never been lost. But you basically reduced all the points to „2000 years ago so what?“ without actually disproving any of them.
Also me pointing out that you personally don’t deem it relevant is not a case of WP:NPA but me pointing out that it doesn’t seem like a WP:NPOV.
But to make it simple - we are talking about the category „Middle Eastern diaspora in North America“ right? Look at the Wikipedia article for diaspora. It says: „A diaspora is a scattered population whose origin lies in a separate geographic locale. In particular, diaspora has come to refer to involuntary mass dispersions of a population from its indigenous territories, most notably the expulsion of Jews from the Land of Israel (known as the Jewish diaspora)(…)“. In the article of jewish diaspora it says that it „refers to the dispersion of Israelites or Jews out of their ancestral homeland (the Land of Israel) and their subsequent settlement in other parts of the globe.“. We all know that the Land of Israel, which is described as the ancestral homeland of the Jews, was in the Middle East. Thus, even following the definitions ON WIKIPEDIA, it makes sense to call it a Middle Eastern Diaspora especially considering the goal of categories is to able to navigate through WIKIPEDIA and contradictions within wikipedia are not helpful!
And concerning the last two guidelines you pointed to:
- WP:CONSENSUS says „In deletion discussions, a lack of consensus normally results in the article, page, image, or other content being kept.“ Which is what it started off as!
- WP:CATV says that a category should GENERALLY be uncontroversial which is very important in the judicial meaning of the word. That means that there are exceptions such as if the category is verifiable and defining. Which it is in this case. If you want to delete that category you need to bring forward evidence that speaks against the category being defining for Jews in North America. Otherwise as WP:CONSENSUS says, we leave it. ( Info Anonym ( talk) 00:43, 19 October 2019 (UTC))
„What I meant when referring you to
WP:TRUTH is that from the first two lines of that essay you may understand that statements like "Stop removing a category that is relevant and most of all true!" are not very relevant on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not about "The Truth“.“ - Okay, but it is also verifiable by reliable sources as it is required by
WP:TRUTH.
„Wikipedia descent categories are not about DNA evidence. They are also about self-identification and relevance. These two conditions are not met in this case. Not to mention that the DNA evidence itself shows that not all Jews are of Middle Eastern descent, and is all about average gene occurrence.“ - I started talking about DNA because YOU started talking about it and now you criticise me for giving you counter arguments. I had been mainly talking about relevance up until you started arguing about the descent although everybody already agreed on that. And I and others already proved that it is relevant (they descend from there, religious jews pray to Jerusalem (in the middle east) everyday and have done so forever, they DO identify as middle eastern (barely any jew will tell you he’s white), their reestablished state is in the middle east, their culture is middle eastern, too, their food is etc I won’t repeat everything now, you can go back in the discussion). You can’t keep switching what you deem your main supporting argument for the deletion whenever I disprove it. There is an OBVIOUS unwillingness to identify jews as what they are for ulterior motives thus a case of WP:NPOV.
„The fact that the name "Jew" has a connection to the Middle East is not relevant to this discussion about descent, not names.“ - again I mentioned the name because you were talking about descent and jews are ethnically literally the people expelled from Judea. The ones that don’t are not Jews and thus irrelevant to the discussion of whether Jews are from the Middle East or not (exclusively religious jews or converts are a minority and generally not relevant when talking about the descent of the jews) .
„There is no such thing as "cultural" descent.“ - I never said there was. That is what I said: „The discussion was about whether that is relevant or not. And as I and Jeffgr9 and others have shown - it is. It is an integral part of Jewish identity. Genetically AND culturally. It has never been lost.“. I, once again, was talking about how it was RELEVANT because it IS part of their culture. It is actually what their culture IS - a middle eastern one.
„This is not a deletion discussion, this is a discussion about whether to include a category. Somebody tried to add it recently, and he has to establish consensus, and obviously has not been able to do so.“ - not true, look at how the discussion started. So unless you reach consensus on the deletion, the category stays.
„Wikipedia is not a court room, although sometimes I think that it would be a good think for admins to make their decisions based on good arguments like in a court, so let's not assume that this is the exception to the rule.“ - What are you talking about? The word GENERALLY literally implies that there is exceptions. And what do you think is more important? That a category is verifiable and defining (like this one) or uncontroversial? ( Info Anonym ( talk) 21:04, 20 October 2019 (UTC))
It's telling that Jews never say "next year in Cracow", "next year in Vilna", or "next year in Moscow". Western diaspora Jews (Ashkenazi and Sephardic), are Middle Easterners who were exiled into Europe, but retained their identity. Yes, they have about 35-45% genetic contribution from Europeans, but that doesn't invalidate their Middle Easternness, any more than the fact that African Americans have 15-25% British DNA invalidates their Africanness. Jews are an indigenous Middle Eastern group, despite the exile to Europe.
Let's look at the genetics Ashkenazi Jews are 55% Levantine, 35% North Italian, and 10% Central/Eastern European Sephardic Jews are 65% Levantine, 20% North Italian, and 15% Iberian
So the majority of Jewish DNA is from the Levant (Israel), as well as their cultural traditions and identity.
PopesTouch ( talk) 04:30, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having. To illustrate, Woody Allen would be commonly and consistently defined as a Jewish New Yorker cinematographer, and Theodor Herzl as a Jewish Austrian intellectual and activist, but they would probably not be commonly defined as being of Asian descent, of Middle Eastern descent or of South Asian descent. To illustrate more:
I'll answer this in the morning. Until then, I have two things to say...
Not only are Jews a Middle Eastern population, but they are actually the oldest indigenous Middle Eastern group still in existence - with the same identity, same language, same homeland, same holidays, same basic mythology and foundation texts, and same spiritual tradition that they had 3,000 years ago. The fact that Jews were exiled from their land on a number of occasions, persecuted and enslaved -- doesn't take away from their Middle Eastern (specifically Levantine) identity, but rather strengthens this fact because during their wanderings throughout the world, they were mostly rejected as foreigners and persecuted due to their origins. In addition, the fact that Jews kept their identity alive and returned en masse to their homeland is testament to the overwhelmingly powerful nature of this identity, and of the Jewish pull towards their land and region of origin.
~~Balaganist~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Balaganist ( talk • contribs) 04:55, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Just to clarify, I am an infrequent editor here, but I have a degree in Jewish and Islamic Civilisations and a continuing interest in modern and ancient Jewish history, which is how I discovered this page. Apologies for the lack of signature, am still learning. Teresa12345678 ( talk) 07:52, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
the fact that Jews are of Middle Eastern descent may be something that you know, but a lot of people are in fact denying and erasing that identity or don't even know that when that is actually very important in current discussionsand
not withholding or hiding that information is very important considering that it is put into question constantly for the sake of certain narratives and arguments.Indeed, adding this mention of Middle Eastern descent to individual people's categories on Wikipedia to obtain a gain in other 'current discussions' (which I am not sure what they are but I guess are linked to the electoral situation in Israel) is textbook examples of soap-boxing and attempting to disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. About the reference to 'certain narratives and arguments' (again unspecified, but which I guess are about perceived challenges to the legitimacy of the State of Israel), it is also very, very wrong to try to distort Wikipedia to balance a perceived distortion in the other direction, an attitude we call Righting Great Wrongs. Lastly, about your mention of your
continuing interest in modern and ancient Jewish history, which is how [you] discovered this page: we have indeed seen, in this discussion as well as previous discussions on the topic, an influx of first-time editors bringing from the outside a seemingly coordinated point of view, which is a well-known way to distort the appearance of consensus known as canvassing. I welcome you again as I believe, as any new editor, you can bring value to Wikipedia, but we have to warn you about such tactics. (BTW, which is the forum broadcasting alarming messages about this discussion?)
a lot of people are in fact denying and erasing that identity[Middle Eastern identity of Jews]. I hope you understand by now that while on one hand Wikipedia was not written by Jews and for Jews and tries to stick to NPOV, there is no conspiration here to "deny and erase that identity". NPOV rules would be applied just the same if someone tried and argue with fringe point of views in the other direction. However people of Jewish descent categories are still categories for individual people, not groups, and it would be undue weight and non-neutral to add them under Middle Eastern descent for Jewish groups which do not have any actual descent since Antiquity. Place Clichy ( talk) 14:32, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Anybody who’s not Levantine or Middle Eastern is not actually ethnically Jewish...That is of course very debatable. Even putting aside the eventual cases of conversion of an entire group to Judaism, we must consider either that the Jews did not intermix with their neighbours during thousands of years, or that they descend from both Middle Eastern ancestors and many other ancestors: in the case of Askhenazi Jews for instance, Category:People of European descent, Category:People of Slavic descent or Category:People of German descent would be just as legitimate. Here is the key point: singling out the Middle Eastern descent and placating it on every Jewish descent category is cherrypicking the line of descent which suits best your point of view, and giving UNDUE weight to this line over others, both of which are totally against the basis of NPOV.
There's a lot to answer here. I will do so in depth later. But a few quick notes.
Category:Turkic peoples is not presently under any descent category. However, Category:People of Turkish descent IS presently under Category:People of Turkic descent, which is itself under Category:People of Central Asian descent.
Slavs are NOT of Central Asian descent. There is no evidence that Slavs (save for Russians and a minority of Kazakhs) come from any part of Asia. Those that do come from Asia are already under Asian descent. And while I'm at it, Category:People of Russian descent is under Category:People of European descent and Category:People of Asian descent. Do all Russian people come from Asia? Do all Russian people come from Europe? The answer, in both cases, is "no". That ties back into my original point.
Category:French-Canadians is not under Gauls or Celts because the Gauls and Celts of France (excluding those in Brittany) went extinct long ago. There ARE no more Gauls, and most modern French people do not identify (ethnically or otherwise) with any Celtic people or tribe. So that rules out placing Category:French people, excluding Category:Bretons, under Category:Celts. And it certainly rules out placing them under Category:Gauls, seeing as the Gauls no longer exist. Jews, by contrast, never went extinct, nor did we abandon our previous ethnic identity after entering diaspora. That's pretty much why we're diaspora Jews (a diaspora which you seem to agree is Middle Eastern) everywhere outside of Israel. So it's not comparable.
Likewise, Category:Native American people are not included under Siberian because their tribal identities were born and forged in North America. They do not identify with Siberia, whereas Jews (in a collective national and ethnic sense) do identify with Israel, hence "Am Yisra'el" (the nation of Israel). Again, it's not the same.
The comparison to human origins in Africa honestly doesn't even warrant a response. It is reaching, needless to say.
I don't agree at all with Place Clichy's proposal, and find it absurd on its face. There is no precedent, on this site or anywhere else, for imposing arbitrary cut-off points/expiration dates on descent. I've only seen such proposals put forward on Jewish categories, and that alone tells me that we really shouldn't be doing it. The Jewish people's origins are in the Middle East. The Jewish diaspora is a Middle Eastern diaspora. Jewish identity is, literally, a Middle Eastern identity ("Jew" is a cognate of "Judean"). And, as countless DNA papers and other sources have shown, the overwhelming majority of us are not converts.
I've yet to hear a single convincing reason for removing these categories. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 13:40, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
"Jewish identity is a lot more defining for these people than millenium-old Judean descent, "
Jewish identity IS Judean identity. Literally. That's how the term "Jew" was coined. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 13:44, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
"To illustrate, Woody Allen would be commonly and consistently defined as a Jewish New Yorker cinematographer, and Theodor Herzl as a Jewish Austrian intellectual and activist, but they would probably not be commonly defined as being of Asian descent, of Middle Eastern descent or of South Asian descent."
Those individuals are commonly defined as Jews, and Jews qua Jews are commonly (and academically) defined as Middle Eastern, Levantine, Southwest Asian. Jewish is more specific. Similarly, most sources refer to Murray Abraham as Assyrian. They don't say "Middle Eastern" because that goes without saying. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 14:04, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
" Adding "Middle Eastern" categories to Jewish topics might be more akin to slapping Siberian categories on Native Americans, Indian categories for Romani, or Central Asian categories for people from Turkey and Bosnia."
Romani people are under South Asian, and Turks are under Central Asian as well. Bosnians are not because they're not a Turkic people, nor do they have any descent from Central Asia. Category:Native American people are not included under Siberian because their tribal identities were born and forged in North America. They do not identify with Siberia, whereas Jews (in a collective national and ethnic sense) do identify with Israel, hence "Am Yisra'el" (the nation of Israel). Again, it's not the same. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 14:18, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
"Please don't mistake disagreeing for ignoring."
Most of my points were indeed ignored. At least 3/4 of them were never addressed at all. There were attempts to answer the other 1/4, but I addressed each of those counterpoints immediately afterward. Unless there's something I'm missing.
Speaking of which, some more replies...
"I wouldn't say that it has been "proven" that "ethnic Jews" are of Middle Eastern descent."
Except it has been proven. There are no less than 36 reliable sources in this thread proving exactly that.
"The point is to determine if this 2000-year-old descent is WP:DEFINING enough to be the basis for a category inclusion for people categories."
We are widely defined as a Middle Eastern people and diaspora. For example, I highly doubt Jews in Europe, North America, or any place outside Israel would be widely referred to as "diaspora Jews" if that weren't the case. There are also reams of academic sources demonstrating and reaffirming this descent right here, in this thread. I don't know what else you could possibly want?
But if you have any RS demonstrating that Jews are NOT commonly defined as Middle Eastern, that'd be helpful.
"And for it to be defining for a person, I would expect at least that they would be able to show a genealogy tree going back to Antiquity."
This is an unreasonable request. As shown via countless other examples, no other ethnic or national group is expected, let alone required, to share their own family trees just to have their origins acknowledged. Not the Romani. Not the Turks. Not North African Arabs. Nor anyone else EXCEPT for Jews. Why?
In most cases, we simply take an ethnic group's narrative as given and - with a few reliable sources here and there - list them accordingly. Jews qua Jews meet both of these requirements vis a vis Middle Eastern descent. We've defined ourselves that way for our entire existence, and the reliable sources are all right there. But for some reason, that's not good enough for you.
"To place this descent category on a people category amounts to say that we can be reasonably sure that everybody in this category (say, "North American people of Jewish descent") can show such a tree."
We don't enforce these standards on any other group. Why here? Why the Jews?
Why? No one, not a single person, has even made the slightest attempt at answering these questions. And that is why I remain wholly unconvinced that these longstanding categories should be removed.
"You are making some assumptions here which amount to claims of racial purity:"
No one, to my knowledge, made any such claim. Racial purity is not required to place an ethnic group under a specific descent category.
"Even putting aside the eventual cases of conversion of an entire group to Judaism, we must consider either that the Jews did not intermix with their neighbours during thousands of years, or that they descend from both Middle Eastern ancestors and many other ancestors:"
There is no evidence of entire groups converting to Judaism, outside of the Khazars. And they ceased to exist centuries ago.
There was substantial conversion in some parts of the world (notably Ethiopia and India), but these Jewish groups still have proven Middle Eastern descent. Significantly less than other Jewish groups, but it's still there. And unless one wants to impose genetic/race purity laws on Jews, there's no reason to disqualify or exclude it. For example, it's 100% possible to acknowledge the African descent of Jews who lived in Africa while also acknowledging their Middle Eastern descent. They are not in competition. That's why "People of African-Jewish descent" is under People of African descent AND People of Jewish descent.
Furthermore, the above mentioned groups amount to less than 1% of world Jewry. We're talking maybe a few hundred thousand out of at least 14 million people. 99% of the world's Jews are either Ashkenazi, Sephardi, or Mizrahi (or some combination of the three), and all of these groups are verifiably of Middle Eastern descent. Europeans and Muslims weren't exactly queueing up to convert to Judaism.
But even ignoring all of that, no other ethnic group is required to be accurate 1:1 to be eligible for a descent category. I gave countless examples of the opposite.
"in the case of Askhenazi Jews for instance, Category:People of European descent, Category:People of Slavic descent or Category:People of German descent would be just as legitimate."
People of German-Jewish descent are under people of German descent already. Likewise, people of Czech-Jewish descent are under people of Czech descent. And through there, both are under people of European descent. So their diaspora history, at the very least, is not being erased. The problem is people wanting to erase the pre-diaspora history.
Point being, Ashkenazim can be acknowledged as both European and Middle Eastern. It's not one or the other. Nor should it be.
"Here is the key point: singling out the Middle Eastern descent and placating it on every Jewish descent category is cherrypicking the line of descent which suits best your point of view, and giving UNDUE weight to this line over others, both of which are totally against the basis of NPOV."
No one is doing that.
"All I can say is that the descent of French people from Gauls and Celts is very much a topic of consideration and is at the heart of French 19th-century and 20th-century nationalism, see fr:Nos ancêtres les Gaulois if you read French."
You're still not quite getting it.
Modern French people do NOT identify as Gauls. They don't identify as Celts. The Gallic people and ethnic identity are extinct. The Jewish people and ethnic identity (i.e. Judean) are NOT extinct. It's just not comparable.
"Greeks constructed their national identity around that of the ancient Hellenes."
Hellenes and Greeks are the same people. And I don't know of a single person who challenges the descent of Greeks - broadly speaking - from the Hellenes, although it can be safely assumed that not all present-day Greeks actually descend from ancient ones.
"Russians make much commotion about the old Kievan Rus' and therefore come to interfere in Ukraine's business."
This is basically the same thing as the ancient Hellenes example above.
"Mormon beliefs assert that they descend from the original Israelites which would have crossed the ocean to America in Pre-Columbian times, and they are not the only ones, see British Israelism."
Neither of these groups actually have Israelite descent, though. There is no evidence for it whatsoever.
The same clearly cannot be said of today's Jews. Again, this is reaching.
"WP:DUCK"
This is WP:Conspiracy theory. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 00:14, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
Another thing worth noting is that anyone can become Assyrian, or Maronite, or Shawnee, etc. But we still categorize the first two under Middle Eastern people and the third under indigenous peoples/ethnicities of North America. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk)
Cite error: There are <ref group=note>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=note}}
template (see the
help page).
This category was nominated for deletion on 20 May 2022. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This category does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I am of course referring to this. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Category:North_American_Jews&diff=920962885&oldid=920733399
I am ambivalent on the Asian diaspora parent cat, but there is no reason to remove the Middle Eastern one. The Jewish diaspora originates in Israel, which is in the Middle East. That's not an opinion. That's a fact verified by reams upon reams of scholarship, including every single peer-reviewed DNA paper released over the past 30 years. Therefore, syllogistically speaking, the Jewish diaspora is a Middle Eastern diaspora. That is why we are called 'diaspora Jews' in every country except Israel. This really shouldn't be controversial at all.
User:Debresser's insistence that "not all Jews are of Middle Eastern descent" is not good enough and, for the most part, not even true. One, with the exception of recent converts, who collectively make up less than 1% of the total Jewish population, all Jews are of Middle Eastern descent. 1% is not enough to remove a category. Two, even if that weren't the case, removing it would still be inconsistent with Wikipedia's wider categorization scheme. For instance, Irish people are categorized under "Celtic people". /info/en/?search=Category:Irish_people. Does that mean everybody in Ireland is a Celt? Does it mean recent immigrants to Ireland from India or Africa are Celts? Obviously not. Is everybody in Britain "Germanic", as this category ( /info/en/?search=Category:English_people) suggests? Again, the answer is no.
Then you have the claim that Ashkenazi Jews are not "really" Middle Eastern, either because they are "phonies" or have been away for "too long". This argument is similarly inconsistent, and borders on blatant anti-Semitism (denying Jewish heritage/identity, as well as applying double standards to Jews, would certainly qualify). The Romani are still categorized as South Asians, even though they've been in Europe for roughly as long as Jews have. Chinese-Singaporeans and Chinese-Malays are categorized as Chinese despite living in those countries since the Middle Ages, if not earlier. I could go on and on.
I don't see these arbitrary guidelines applied anywhere else except here, and I'd really like to know why.
It could also be pointed out that if "not all Jews are Middle Eastern", than the "North American people by ethnic or national origin" category doesn't belong here either. After all, not all Jews are ethnic Jews. That tiny, minuscule percentage of converts isn't ethnically Jewish in any way. So if we're going by the logic that a category is inapplicable unless it applies to "all" within it, why don't we remove that as well? The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 14:31, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
Furthermore, "this has been discussed" is a semantic stop sign. It is not valid reason for gatekeeping a category, or enforcing a parent cat's removal. That you obtained a "consensus" (and I'm using scare quotes here because most voted to keep the category, not to remove it) favorable to your own POV years back does not preclude us from revisiting the topic again in the future. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not WP:Consensus. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 14:34, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
If Jews are not a founding Middle East people, how are their ancient relics e.g the Dead Sea Scrolls and Temple Mosaics still being found in the Middle East (modern Israel) from 2,600 years ago? < https://mfa.gov.il/MFA/IsraelExperience/History/Pages/Archeologists-restore-flooring-from-second-temple-courtyard-in-Jerusalem-9-September-2016.aspx> Masses and masses of archeological evidence abounds < http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/links/Archaeology.htm> In addition there is no significant difference between Ashkenazi populations dispersed to Europe and Mizrachi populations dispersed to the Arab world in terms of genetics, culture, linguistic roots and so on as proven by recent DNA studies. Jews are part of the Middle East diaspora and any efforts to remove this link would be strange to the point of unique bias. < https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3543766/> CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 15:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
I absolutely agree that Ashkenazi is Jew and is Middle Eastern. Akiva Bernake ( talk) 15:41, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
There is no question that Jews are a founding Middle Eastern people and there is no significant difference between Ashkenazi Jews who were dispersed and Mizrachi Jews who stayed in the Middle East in terms of genetics, culture or language roots. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 15:49, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
You could not be more wrong. Every Jew who marries has a Ketuba - it's a document checked by a rabbi and verified in front of 10 members of the community saying who the parents are. Every male child has a brit mila (checked) and every death is checked. We have always been a highly literate and documenting people. There have been tiny numbers of proselytes - both because we don't accept converts and because it was no pleasure to be Jew in Christendom; no one wanted in to the tribe, for sure! Apart from genetics, which prove 75% Levantine DNA across the entire Jewish population (including Ashkenazi) [1] there are ancient family names - Cohen, Levi (priests,) Benjamin, Judah... names that non Jews never take. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:14, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
2. Most Jews do not self-identify as being of Middle Eastern descent. I, for example, identify as being of Dutch descent. Without self-identification, Wikipedia should not use the category.
Because one person self identifies as Dutch, it does nothing to change the fact that Jews are a Middle Eastern people who are closely associated with Israel in daily prayers, customs, festivals and the Hebrew language. Europeans would tell us to "go back to your Palestine!" CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:16, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
3. Even if technically, many Jews are from Middle Eastern descent, this is from over 2,00 years (~100 generations) ago, and is not relevant to Wikipedia categorizing.
Jews have returned to what is now renamed Israel century after century. You may not know the history but most of us do. For example, the first printing press in the Middle East was built in 1577 in Safed and printed in Hebrew. [2] The Safed community and Jerusalem Jews had several working synagogues - the Rambam having been operational almost without cease since 1267. There are thousands of citations in libraries of European Rabbis turning to the superior knowledge of the parent, Middle Eastern communities and bringing Jews home where possible. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 23:05, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
We literally have our own bone marrow bank world wide because the mitrochondrial DNA is 75% Levantine (Middle Eastern) and Jews are more likely to get a medical match from other Jews than from ANY host population. [3] CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:19, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
4. This has been discussed intensively years ago, and there is a clear consensus not to have this category. 4. These categories were added by User:The Human Trumpet Solo on September 26 in this edit, and the consensus version of this page is without it. The burden of proof is therefore on him to show that there is consensus for this. Please note that consensus is established on all related categories. Category:People of Jewish descent, which is the parent category of this one, shows no Middle eastern category. 6. User:The Human Trumpet Solo was reported at WP:ANI in 2017 for edit warring about precisely this same issue (see User_talk:The_Human_Trumpet_Solo#WP:ANI), and he is at it again. Another editor also has warned him already on his talkpage (see User_talk:The_Human_Trumpet_Solo#Cat_removal). Debresser ( talk) 16:18, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
"Another editor also has warned him already on his talkpage". That was you. You simply refused to sign your name initially, presumably so that it would look like I have more people against me than I really do. The only other "warning" was from a similarly aggressive user whose antics recently got him topic-banned (and justifiably so). The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 12:33, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
You have some kind of personal issue that is against the vast bulk of Jewish opinion. Even Ashkenazim have, and have always had, family in the Middle East. To pretend Jews are not a founding Middle Eastern people, with the history (such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, ancient Jewish Temple mosaics and royal seals, synagogues of centuries and more turning up in the archaeology every week [4]) is, frankly, to disenfranchise us from reality. Most Jews would find this very insulting. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:26, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
"Jews are not from Middle Eastern descent"
Have any citations for this?
1. You should read what I wrote above, because I answered this point in great detail. To recap... "User:Debresser's insistence that "not all Jews are of Middle Eastern descent" is not good enough and, for the most part, not even true. One, with the exception of recent converts, who collectively make up less than 1% of the total Jewish population, all Jews are of Middle Eastern descent. 1% is not enough to remove a category. Two, even if that weren't the case, removing it would still be inconsistent with Wikipedia's wider categorization scheme. For instance, Irish people are categorized under "Celtic people". /info/en/?search=Category:Irish_people. Does that mean everybody in Ireland is a Celt? Does it mean recent immigrants to Ireland from India or Africa are Celts? Obviously not. Is everybody in Britain "Germanic", as this category ( /info/en/?search=Category:English_people) suggests? Again, the answer is no. Then you have the claim that Ashkenazi Jews are not "really" Middle Eastern, either because they are "phonies" or have been away for "too long". This argument is similarly inconsistent, and borders on blatant anti-Semitism (denying Jewish heritage/identity, as well as applying double standards to Jews, would certainly qualify). The Romani are still categorized as South Asians, even though they've been in Europe for roughly as long as Jews have. Chinese-Singaporeans and Chinese-Malays are categorized as Chinese despite living in those countries since the Middle Ages, if not earlier. I could go on and on. "
2. I'd like to see some statistics for that. Otherwise, it is just WP:ANECDOTE and WP:IDONTLIKEIT. You are free to identify however you please, but feelings mean nothing. And I don't see how acknowledging the Middle Eastern origin of Jews detracts in any way from your own identity, as if it is somehow in competition with pre-diasporic Jewish history.
3. I answered this already. Refer back to number 1.
4. One, WP:CCC. Two, the majority actually "voted" in favoring of keeping the category. It was only removed after you WP:HOUNDed an admin for his decision to keep it.
5. My adding the category was consisted with WP:BRD. You could've just reverted and then discussed, but instead you opted for gate-keeping and semantic stop signs (i.e. "this has been discussed"), ignoring WP:CCC.
6. That was 2 years ago. And if I recall, you were brought to ANI for the same exact reasons, as well as for emotionally-charged attacks and belligerent behavior. In fact, you are doing the same things again right now. You are now over well over the 3RR, last I checked. Now it looks as though you're also guilty of WP:Personal attacks and WP:BULLY. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk:Rainbowofpeace&diff=921221448&oldid=915169507 The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 16:46, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Jews are not a race - we are an ethno nationalism - a group of people connected by Middle Eastern culture, Middle Eastern language (Hebrew,) 75% Middle Eastern genes. No one would say Sikhs were French in origin... or Yazidis who have fled as refugees to England are not clearly Middle Eastern. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:29, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Being Jewish is not genetically determined. That's a plainly racist viewpoint. A Jew is someone with a Jewish mother or someone who has converted to Judaism. If you are Reform, you would accept patrilineals as Jewish as well.
This is a nit picking argument based on a tiny percentage of the population and the recent emancipation of Jewry. In the last two millennia, the number of converts into Judaism has been miniscule. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:57, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
The claim that there are no differences between Ashkenazim and Mizrahim is absurd on its face, the terms of distinction wouldn't even exist if there weren't notable differences. "Mizrahi", furthermore, is a label of fairly recent usage and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with genetics. Bohemian Baltimore ( talk) 16:51, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Around 5% of Jews - some here, it seems - adhere to sophisticated arguments and nitpicking to say a whole range of things about Jewish identity in the diaspora. Out in the real world, no one ever thought Jews anything but a Middle Eastern people throughout history. Jews paid for their remains to go home century after century and there are 70 thousand Jewish graves from 3,500 years ago to today in Jerusalem - the Mount of Olives. [36] It would be biased in the extreme and, frankly, weird to divorce the majority of Jews from our Middle Eastern origins - especially based on the arguments of a few naysayers. CelebrateIsrael ( talk) 22:37, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
"What is being "bitterly opposed" is explicitly racializing, ahistorical viewpoints that would be considered fringe scientific-racism by many Jews and non-Jews alike."
The fact that Jews are an ethnic group and that the vast majority of Jews have origins in the Middle East is hardly fringe. On the contrary, there's been an overwhelming genetic consensus on this for decades, and an overwhelming academic one for even longer than that. In fact, Jews have always self-defined this way.
"Despite the Southern Levantine origins of the Jewish people, Jewishness and Judaism has become a multi-faceted, multi-ethnic, multi-national, multi-racial religion and civilization that is absolutely not reducible to racially essentialist interpretations of genetics."
In other words, Jews can and did mix with outside populations, like almost every other ethnic group in existence. That's hardly news. My point is, it doesn't change a thing. However mixed one may be, or however strongly attached they are to their diaspora countries, the Middle Eastern descent is still there. My objection is that you appear to view descent/origins as something that can be swapped out or replaced on the fly, simply by settling somewhere else or by dint of intermarriage. It doesn't work that way, certainly not on any other article of this nature.
"You hugely diminish the number of gerim and their role throughout Jewish history."
Outside of Ethiopia, a brief period in ancient Rome, and in ancient Canaan itself, conversion was always rare. Hell, it's still rare. Even in North America. And the vast majority of Jews - all but 1% of global Jewry (if even that) - trace at least part, if not the majority, of their ancestry to ancient Israel. Hence, Middle Eastern diaspora in North America. The vast majority of us are not converts. Are gerim equally Jewish? Of course they are. But that doesn't invalidate the Middle Eastern descent of the Jewish diaspora writ large (which is what this category pertains to). Please refer back to my point about Irish and English people.
"I have no animosity towards secular Jews"
And why do you think secular Jews exist? Could it be that we're.... and ethnicity? Would secular Jews exist if Jews weren't an ethnicity? Hell no. If that were the case, I'd be able to trade in my Jew-card any time I want. But alas, I can't do that. Because it's not possible to change one's ethnicity.
"A substantial portion of Ashkenazi Jews, Beta Israel, and many others are the descendants of converts (mixed or otherwise)."
Ashkenazim, on average, are genetically more than half-Levantine. Without exception. They cluster in between Druze, Lebanese, and southern Europeans on PCA plots. So, Ashkenazim are indisputably Middle Eastern. They're European too (specifically Greek/Italian), but also Middle Eastern. Beta Israel descend primarily from converts, but all of them have Middle Eastern descent (albeit significantly less than that of other Jews). They are African and Middle Eastern.
See, one does not cancel out the other. Both can co-exist, and be acknowledged simultaneously.
"Many of the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews were European women (and men) who converted to Judaism and married Jews."
There were women who converted, but very few men. The Y-DNA line is solidly Middle Eastern. And those who did convert married into the larger Jewish (Middle Eastern) gene pool, and contributed to it. You act as though they outright replaced the original Middle Eastern population that set up colonies in Europe.
"And it's not a matter of "mixing" causing Middle Easternness to be "canceled out", it's a matter of numerous Jews not being from the Middle East and not being part of or identifying with Middle Eastern culture and identity. A Lithuanian Jew isn't Middle Eastern because they are from...Lithuania...not the ME. A Chinese Jew, also not from the Middle East. Chinese Jews are Chinese. Etc."
You contradicted yourself here. First, you say it doesn't cancel out their Middle Eastern. Then, in the same breath, you argue that it does. Which one is it?
As for "not being part of or identifying with Middle Eastern culture and identity", what do you think Jewish culture/identity is? It's literally southern Israelite culture, as preserved by Jews throughout the world and in Israel itself.
"Millions upon millions of diaspora Jews, historically and presently, identified/identify quite strongly with the culture or nation they were raised in and would scoff at the idea of being "Middle Eastern" as ridiculous."
Can you source this please? Because I highly doubt that "millions upon millions" number is accurate. From my experience, most Jews have no trouble at all acknowledging their Middle Eastern origins.
"Can individual non-MENA Jews identify with being Middle Eastern? Sure, go ahead, nobody's stopping you."
You can spin it however you want, but by zealously working to remove the Middle Eastern category from this page, that is precisely what you are doing. I mean, you just said point blank that Ashkenazi Jews are "not Middle Eastern". And for the countless Ashkenazim out there who do identify primarily (if not entirely) as Middle Eastern, you absolutely did deny their identity.
"But the desire to assert an inherent "Levantine" racial essence to Jews is, 1.) Explicitly racialist and promoting discredited 19th century-style pseudo race-science"
When you're done strawmanning and gaslighting me (and comparing peer-reviewed academic papers from less than a decade ago, as well as Wikipedia's own reliably-sourced articles on this same subject, to 19th century race scientists), you might want to go back and read my comments again. You claim you're not denying the Middle Eastern identity of Ashkenazi Jews, and yet here you are equating them with white nationalist pseudo-scientists.
"In all likelihood, a tired attempt to trumpet a very particular form of Zionist ideological propaganda while claiming that Zionist political viewpoint to be "the" objective Jewish viewpoint. This is all problematic, and yes, offensive to many Jews"
You are aware that 97% of the world's Jews are Zionists, right?
"who don't want their diasporic identities stripped away and erased,"
I'm not denying anyone's identity. I'm not the one removing categories and equating Jews who ID as Levantine to "racists" and "discredited pseudo-scientists". You and Debresser are the one's doing that, not me.
Adding on the "Middle Eastern diaspora" category in no way diminishes diaspora history. That is a ludicrous assertion.
"to have racist pseudoscience branded as "Jewish fact","
I cited quite a few RS here. Care to point out to me which of them constitute "racist pseudoscience"?
"and aggressive Zionist propaganda heralded as the voice of all Jews and Judaism"
Again, you are aware that 97% of the world's Jews are Zionists, right?
"Declaring all Jews to be "Middle Eastern" invalidates and erases both diasporic Jewish identities as well as Middle Eastern Jewish identities."
No, it doesn't. Acknowledging the Middle Eastern ethnic identity of Jews qua Jews does not entail invalidating diaspora identity, or vice versa. Believe it or not, it's possible be multiple things at once. These identities are not in competition with one another.
And the fact that you keep using the term "diasporic" here only proves my point. We are a diaspora. A diaspora = a subset of a population that lives outside of its indigenous homeland. Jews outside of Israel are, without exception, called diaspora Jews for a reason. Why? Because the Jewish diaspora is a Middle Eastern one. Hence, the "Middle Eastern diaspora in North America" category.
"If all Jews are "Middle Eastern", what are Jews from the Middle East? Middle Eastern Middle Eastern Jews?"
"Mizrahi Jews" works just fine. "Middle Eastern Jews" is a redundant and silly term.
"echo the tired old refrain that Jews in the diaspora are essentially foreigners who do not belong (Palestinians who wandered into Europe, to paraphrase that great friend of the Jews, Immanuel Kant)."
All you're doing is proving my point. You're gaslighting Jews who identify first and foremost with their Israelite origins and painting them as "racists" for doing so, all while refusing to acknowledge the reams upon reams of academic and DNA sources that are literally right in front of you, which verify the fact that, yes, we collectively originate in the Middle East. This really shouldn't be controversial.
"As for Ashkenazim being "phony" Jews or whatever, that is absolutely not my perspective."
You repeatedly denied their Middle Eastern identity/origins on this page. And on that Washington DC article too.
"As for the Romani, I would consider branding them as inherently "South Asian" as almost equally farfetched. The Romani are a global diaspora culture that has settled in a huge variety of countries and could be described as "European" just as easily, maybe even more easily, as they could be described as "South Asian." There are Romani of every imaginable skin color, nationality, language, religion, etc. I've met plenty of Roma who identify as white and/or European, for example. There are Arab and MENA Roma, Latino Roma, and so on. I don't want to argue endlessly about Roma identity, but referencing the Roma in regards to Jewish identity isn't very convincing to me. There's no double standard coming from me. I'm sure there are other similar diasporic populations I could point to."
And yet Romani are listed under "South Asian diaspora" on their respective categories, with zero objections from anyone. Jews are the ONLY population whose well-documented, well-supported ethnic origins are the object of bitter dispute. It's absolutely absurd and, frankly, racist.
"One last note: Jews who don't identify as "Middle Eastern" are not "denying Jewish heritage/identity", because being "Middle Eastern" is *not* the heritage or identity of non-MENA Jews who belong to and identify with diasporic cultures. I'm not sure if you are implying that Jews who don't identify as "Middle Eastern" are "bordering on blatant anti-Semitism", but it looks like you are advocating that view or something close to it."
Arguing that Ashkenazim are "inauthentically" Middle Eastern and applying double standards to Jews is antisemitic. That's what I said. You may take from that what you wish. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 01:59, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Ah, somehow I missed this one.
"Please note that consensus is established on all related categories. Category:People of Jewish descent, which is the parent category of this one, shows no Middle eastern category."
That's because you and your now topic-banned friend kept reverting anyone who tried to add it. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 13:11, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Furthermore, I've been quite vocal in the past on my belief that all Israeli settlements in the West Bank should be dismantled and evacuated, just like in Gaza. So I'm afraid your claim that I am a "Zionist operative" is misplaced. I'm simply puzzled as to why there is so much obscurantism at work vis a vis the Middle Eastern descent of most (and by "most", I mean upwards of 99%) modern Jews. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 13:18, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Localising the references (better if this section is archived). Specifying single column since there are lots of long quotes. -- Mirokado ( talk) 19:32, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
Jews-are-ethnoreligious-group
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Nicholson2002
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Neusner1991
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Dowty1998
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Abraham 2010
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Although Dio's figure of 985 as the number of villages destroyed during the war seems hyperbolic, all Judaean villages, without exception, excavated thus far were razed following the Bar Kochba Revolt. This evidence supports the impression of total regional destruction following the war. Historical sources note the vast number of captives sold into slavery in Palestine and shipped abroad. ... The Judaean Jewish community never recovered from the Bar Kochba war. In its wake, Jews no longer formed the majority in Palestine, and the Jewish center moved to the Galilee. Jews were also subjected to a series of religious edicts promulgated by Hadrian that were designed to uproot the nationalistic elements with the Judaean Jewish community, these proclamations remained in effect until Hadrian's death in 138. An additional, more lasting punitive measure taken by the Romans involved expunging Judaea from the provincial name, changing it from Provincia Judaea to Provincia Syria Palestina. Although such name changes occurred elsewhere, never before or after was a nation's name expunged as the result of rebellion.
JDB
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).{{
cite web}}
: Missing or empty |title=
(
help)
Sorry, but this thread has become unreadable. @ User:CelebrateIsrael, I don't know exactly what is going on but this is not how comments should be replied to on a talk page. This conversation has becoming confusing and impossible to follow. Bohemian Baltimore ( talk)
What has become abundantly clear from the above discussion is that this recent edit has no consensus, and that it is opposed by knowledgeable editors with a plethora of good arguments. User:The Human Trumpet Solo, please comply with the relevant Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and self-revert till such time as you obtain consensus. Debresser ( talk) 10:23, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
I also remind editors that this issue was discussed, and rejected, at Category_talk:Jews#Asian_people. Debresser ( talk) 10:26, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
it is a fact that Jews are an ethnoreligious tribal people whose origins are in the middle east. The genetic arguments are pretty much proven that they trace their origin as a people to the Levant. it is a fact that Judaism is the spiritual mode and method of those people and in the modern context there are a small percentage of converts however conversion is discouraged in Judaism. using the entire " there are some jews who aren't actually jewish" is a weak argument. There are people who follow Judaism who are not of Jewish ethnicity but again its a small percentage.
I think its a huge red flag that certain users spend so much time editing Jewish and Israeli topics and make the same arguments every time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingryan6966 ( talk • contribs) 01:10, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not avoid facts just because they seem controversial. Evolution, abortion, climate change and immigrant and LGBTQ issues are also controversial. That's why wikipedia must state the facts we have historical proof that the Jews are a Levantine people who lived in Israel and were directed into a DIASPORA by the Roman's. Now if you want me to start bringing sources I have several. -
Rainbowofpeace (
talk)
23:56, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Nobody is denying that Jews and Judaism originate from the Middle East. It is however not useful to add "Middle Eastern descent" and "Asian descent" to biographical categories about Jewish or Jewish-descent people. Jews have created their own identity and adding this millenium-old "descent" to every single Jewish category is overkill and serves absolutely no purpose. Jews are not the only diaspora group that has migrated in the last few thousand years. Will you add "Mongol descent" to every Native American category? "Central Asian descent" to every Slavic or Turkish people category? "South Asian descent" to every Indo-European category? "East African descent" to every human article in the encyclopedia? (After all, we are all homo sapiens.) This is a disruption of
Wikipedia's category system to make a very unclear
POINT. This has been discussed extensively on
Category talk:People of Jewish descent among others. Oh, and people arguing that most of the editors present disagreed with you
, you may notice the number of
single-purpose accounts attracted by this topic (see a new one that just
reverted me). I wonder which external forum is receiving alarming message about Wikipedia plotting to undermine Jewish or Israeli identity. If this is the case and if you are coming from there, you've been lied to.
Place Clichy (
talk)
16:52, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
Great to hear that you know that Jews are of Middle Eastern descent, but saying that you removed the categories that confirm that because in your eyes it makes little sense to place them there is not really credible considering how you are actively targeting and erasing those categories EVERYWHERE but placing for example Middle Eastern diaspora in Arab diaspora in North America. That is what I call trying to make a point! Also, the fact that Jews are of Middle Eastern descent may be something that you know, but a lot of people are in fact denying and erasing that identity or don't even know that when that is actually very important in current discussions, too. You are actively contributing to that misinformation giving questionable reasons. Categorising Jews in Middle Eastern descent is not wrong and not withholding or hiding that information is very important considering that it is put into question constantly for the sake of certain narratives and arguments. Why such a passion to remove it? (
Info Anonym (
talk)
17:41, 17 October 2019 (UTC))
Stop removing a category that is relevant and most of all true! I don’t see how it would bother someone so much to disconnect Jews and the Middle East, knowing there is a connection, to go around and delete the categories unless they have an ulterior motive. Jews descend from the Middle East, DNA tests prove that modern Jews are still overwhelmingly Middle Eastern, Jews rightfully consider themselves and identify as Middle Eastern, Jewish religion and culture originates and is closely tied to the Middle East e.g. religious Jews have always prayed and pray to Jerusalem every day which is and was in the Middle East and now the Jewish state has been reestablished in the Middle East again! Yes, of course, their middle eastern descent is important and valid! And even if you were to take that argument about the last generations into consideration, we can then make the point that by now the majority of Jews have been in the Middle East for generations again + the mizrahi and Sephardi jews who have been there even earlier! This category confirming the connection is important and relevant considering that people regularly deny it and use that denial of Jewish indigeneity and even just presence in the Middle East before the reestablishment of Israel as argument for its annihilation and illegitimacy. You literally bring no better argument forward than the fact that you personally (!) don’t deem it relevant. If you don’t undo it or leave it when I do or someone else does it, that ultimately only proves how you are just trying to make an argument. Possibly the one I mentioned before. ( Info Anonym ( talk) 03:18, 18 October 2019 (UTC))
So, first off, WP:TRUTH says that there should be reliable sources for added material. There are many reliable sources that prove that Jews are of middle eastern descent and very, very few contradicting ones, most disproven by now like the Khazar theory. And as I said, which you however ignored, there is scientific evidence through DNA tests that modern day Jews are still overwhelmingly Middle Eastern and the ones who are not - are not actually ethnically Jewish as "Jews" was literally the name given to the people that fled from and were expelled from Judea (hence their name). Unless you argue that (the ancient Jews) Israelites/Judeans are not even Middle Eastern your argument is not consistent.
Moreover WP:TRUTH says that you shouldn’t delete content just because you believe it to be untrue, either. Which is certainly the case with you considering all evidence speaks against the point you’re making that Jews are not Middle Eastern. And in this category talk most people already agreed on that.
"Jewish religion and culture originates and is closely tied to the Middle East“ and "people regularly deny it and use that denial of Jewish indigeneity and even just presence in the Middle East before the reestablishment of Israel as argument for its annihilation and illegitimacy“ - Your criticism towards those statements was that they don’t prove descent. They don’t because that is not what I made them for as nobody had actually been arguing Jewish Middle Eastern descent before you. Place Clichy was talking about how adding it everywhere is an overkill and serves absolutely no purpose. The discussion was about whether that is relevant or not. And as I and Jeffgr9 and others have shown - it is. It is an integral part of Jewish identity. Genetically AND culturally. It has never been lost. But you basically reduced all the points to „2000 years ago so what?“ without actually disproving any of them.
Also me pointing out that you personally don’t deem it relevant is not a case of WP:NPA but me pointing out that it doesn’t seem like a WP:NPOV.
But to make it simple - we are talking about the category „Middle Eastern diaspora in North America“ right? Look at the Wikipedia article for diaspora. It says: „A diaspora is a scattered population whose origin lies in a separate geographic locale. In particular, diaspora has come to refer to involuntary mass dispersions of a population from its indigenous territories, most notably the expulsion of Jews from the Land of Israel (known as the Jewish diaspora)(…)“. In the article of jewish diaspora it says that it „refers to the dispersion of Israelites or Jews out of their ancestral homeland (the Land of Israel) and their subsequent settlement in other parts of the globe.“. We all know that the Land of Israel, which is described as the ancestral homeland of the Jews, was in the Middle East. Thus, even following the definitions ON WIKIPEDIA, it makes sense to call it a Middle Eastern Diaspora especially considering the goal of categories is to able to navigate through WIKIPEDIA and contradictions within wikipedia are not helpful!
And concerning the last two guidelines you pointed to:
- WP:CONSENSUS says „In deletion discussions, a lack of consensus normally results in the article, page, image, or other content being kept.“ Which is what it started off as!
- WP:CATV says that a category should GENERALLY be uncontroversial which is very important in the judicial meaning of the word. That means that there are exceptions such as if the category is verifiable and defining. Which it is in this case. If you want to delete that category you need to bring forward evidence that speaks against the category being defining for Jews in North America. Otherwise as WP:CONSENSUS says, we leave it. ( Info Anonym ( talk) 00:43, 19 October 2019 (UTC))
„What I meant when referring you to
WP:TRUTH is that from the first two lines of that essay you may understand that statements like "Stop removing a category that is relevant and most of all true!" are not very relevant on Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not about "The Truth“.“ - Okay, but it is also verifiable by reliable sources as it is required by
WP:TRUTH.
„Wikipedia descent categories are not about DNA evidence. They are also about self-identification and relevance. These two conditions are not met in this case. Not to mention that the DNA evidence itself shows that not all Jews are of Middle Eastern descent, and is all about average gene occurrence.“ - I started talking about DNA because YOU started talking about it and now you criticise me for giving you counter arguments. I had been mainly talking about relevance up until you started arguing about the descent although everybody already agreed on that. And I and others already proved that it is relevant (they descend from there, religious jews pray to Jerusalem (in the middle east) everyday and have done so forever, they DO identify as middle eastern (barely any jew will tell you he’s white), their reestablished state is in the middle east, their culture is middle eastern, too, their food is etc I won’t repeat everything now, you can go back in the discussion). You can’t keep switching what you deem your main supporting argument for the deletion whenever I disprove it. There is an OBVIOUS unwillingness to identify jews as what they are for ulterior motives thus a case of WP:NPOV.
„The fact that the name "Jew" has a connection to the Middle East is not relevant to this discussion about descent, not names.“ - again I mentioned the name because you were talking about descent and jews are ethnically literally the people expelled from Judea. The ones that don’t are not Jews and thus irrelevant to the discussion of whether Jews are from the Middle East or not (exclusively religious jews or converts are a minority and generally not relevant when talking about the descent of the jews) .
„There is no such thing as "cultural" descent.“ - I never said there was. That is what I said: „The discussion was about whether that is relevant or not. And as I and Jeffgr9 and others have shown - it is. It is an integral part of Jewish identity. Genetically AND culturally. It has never been lost.“. I, once again, was talking about how it was RELEVANT because it IS part of their culture. It is actually what their culture IS - a middle eastern one.
„This is not a deletion discussion, this is a discussion about whether to include a category. Somebody tried to add it recently, and he has to establish consensus, and obviously has not been able to do so.“ - not true, look at how the discussion started. So unless you reach consensus on the deletion, the category stays.
„Wikipedia is not a court room, although sometimes I think that it would be a good think for admins to make their decisions based on good arguments like in a court, so let's not assume that this is the exception to the rule.“ - What are you talking about? The word GENERALLY literally implies that there is exceptions. And what do you think is more important? That a category is verifiable and defining (like this one) or uncontroversial? ( Info Anonym ( talk) 21:04, 20 October 2019 (UTC))
It's telling that Jews never say "next year in Cracow", "next year in Vilna", or "next year in Moscow". Western diaspora Jews (Ashkenazi and Sephardic), are Middle Easterners who were exiled into Europe, but retained their identity. Yes, they have about 35-45% genetic contribution from Europeans, but that doesn't invalidate their Middle Easternness, any more than the fact that African Americans have 15-25% British DNA invalidates their Africanness. Jews are an indigenous Middle Eastern group, despite the exile to Europe.
Let's look at the genetics Ashkenazi Jews are 55% Levantine, 35% North Italian, and 10% Central/Eastern European Sephardic Jews are 65% Levantine, 20% North Italian, and 15% Iberian
So the majority of Jewish DNA is from the Levant (Israel), as well as their cultural traditions and identity.
PopesTouch ( talk) 04:30, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having. To illustrate, Woody Allen would be commonly and consistently defined as a Jewish New Yorker cinematographer, and Theodor Herzl as a Jewish Austrian intellectual and activist, but they would probably not be commonly defined as being of Asian descent, of Middle Eastern descent or of South Asian descent. To illustrate more:
I'll answer this in the morning. Until then, I have two things to say...
Not only are Jews a Middle Eastern population, but they are actually the oldest indigenous Middle Eastern group still in existence - with the same identity, same language, same homeland, same holidays, same basic mythology and foundation texts, and same spiritual tradition that they had 3,000 years ago. The fact that Jews were exiled from their land on a number of occasions, persecuted and enslaved -- doesn't take away from their Middle Eastern (specifically Levantine) identity, but rather strengthens this fact because during their wanderings throughout the world, they were mostly rejected as foreigners and persecuted due to their origins. In addition, the fact that Jews kept their identity alive and returned en masse to their homeland is testament to the overwhelmingly powerful nature of this identity, and of the Jewish pull towards their land and region of origin.
~~Balaganist~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Balaganist ( talk • contribs) 04:55, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Just to clarify, I am an infrequent editor here, but I have a degree in Jewish and Islamic Civilisations and a continuing interest in modern and ancient Jewish history, which is how I discovered this page. Apologies for the lack of signature, am still learning. Teresa12345678 ( talk) 07:52, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
the fact that Jews are of Middle Eastern descent may be something that you know, but a lot of people are in fact denying and erasing that identity or don't even know that when that is actually very important in current discussionsand
not withholding or hiding that information is very important considering that it is put into question constantly for the sake of certain narratives and arguments.Indeed, adding this mention of Middle Eastern descent to individual people's categories on Wikipedia to obtain a gain in other 'current discussions' (which I am not sure what they are but I guess are linked to the electoral situation in Israel) is textbook examples of soap-boxing and attempting to disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. About the reference to 'certain narratives and arguments' (again unspecified, but which I guess are about perceived challenges to the legitimacy of the State of Israel), it is also very, very wrong to try to distort Wikipedia to balance a perceived distortion in the other direction, an attitude we call Righting Great Wrongs. Lastly, about your mention of your
continuing interest in modern and ancient Jewish history, which is how [you] discovered this page: we have indeed seen, in this discussion as well as previous discussions on the topic, an influx of first-time editors bringing from the outside a seemingly coordinated point of view, which is a well-known way to distort the appearance of consensus known as canvassing. I welcome you again as I believe, as any new editor, you can bring value to Wikipedia, but we have to warn you about such tactics. (BTW, which is the forum broadcasting alarming messages about this discussion?)
a lot of people are in fact denying and erasing that identity[Middle Eastern identity of Jews]. I hope you understand by now that while on one hand Wikipedia was not written by Jews and for Jews and tries to stick to NPOV, there is no conspiration here to "deny and erase that identity". NPOV rules would be applied just the same if someone tried and argue with fringe point of views in the other direction. However people of Jewish descent categories are still categories for individual people, not groups, and it would be undue weight and non-neutral to add them under Middle Eastern descent for Jewish groups which do not have any actual descent since Antiquity. Place Clichy ( talk) 14:32, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Anybody who’s not Levantine or Middle Eastern is not actually ethnically Jewish...That is of course very debatable. Even putting aside the eventual cases of conversion of an entire group to Judaism, we must consider either that the Jews did not intermix with their neighbours during thousands of years, or that they descend from both Middle Eastern ancestors and many other ancestors: in the case of Askhenazi Jews for instance, Category:People of European descent, Category:People of Slavic descent or Category:People of German descent would be just as legitimate. Here is the key point: singling out the Middle Eastern descent and placating it on every Jewish descent category is cherrypicking the line of descent which suits best your point of view, and giving UNDUE weight to this line over others, both of which are totally against the basis of NPOV.
There's a lot to answer here. I will do so in depth later. But a few quick notes.
Category:Turkic peoples is not presently under any descent category. However, Category:People of Turkish descent IS presently under Category:People of Turkic descent, which is itself under Category:People of Central Asian descent.
Slavs are NOT of Central Asian descent. There is no evidence that Slavs (save for Russians and a minority of Kazakhs) come from any part of Asia. Those that do come from Asia are already under Asian descent. And while I'm at it, Category:People of Russian descent is under Category:People of European descent and Category:People of Asian descent. Do all Russian people come from Asia? Do all Russian people come from Europe? The answer, in both cases, is "no". That ties back into my original point.
Category:French-Canadians is not under Gauls or Celts because the Gauls and Celts of France (excluding those in Brittany) went extinct long ago. There ARE no more Gauls, and most modern French people do not identify (ethnically or otherwise) with any Celtic people or tribe. So that rules out placing Category:French people, excluding Category:Bretons, under Category:Celts. And it certainly rules out placing them under Category:Gauls, seeing as the Gauls no longer exist. Jews, by contrast, never went extinct, nor did we abandon our previous ethnic identity after entering diaspora. That's pretty much why we're diaspora Jews (a diaspora which you seem to agree is Middle Eastern) everywhere outside of Israel. So it's not comparable.
Likewise, Category:Native American people are not included under Siberian because their tribal identities were born and forged in North America. They do not identify with Siberia, whereas Jews (in a collective national and ethnic sense) do identify with Israel, hence "Am Yisra'el" (the nation of Israel). Again, it's not the same.
The comparison to human origins in Africa honestly doesn't even warrant a response. It is reaching, needless to say.
I don't agree at all with Place Clichy's proposal, and find it absurd on its face. There is no precedent, on this site or anywhere else, for imposing arbitrary cut-off points/expiration dates on descent. I've only seen such proposals put forward on Jewish categories, and that alone tells me that we really shouldn't be doing it. The Jewish people's origins are in the Middle East. The Jewish diaspora is a Middle Eastern diaspora. Jewish identity is, literally, a Middle Eastern identity ("Jew" is a cognate of "Judean"). And, as countless DNA papers and other sources have shown, the overwhelming majority of us are not converts.
I've yet to hear a single convincing reason for removing these categories. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 13:40, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
"Jewish identity is a lot more defining for these people than millenium-old Judean descent, "
Jewish identity IS Judean identity. Literally. That's how the term "Jew" was coined. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 13:44, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
"To illustrate, Woody Allen would be commonly and consistently defined as a Jewish New Yorker cinematographer, and Theodor Herzl as a Jewish Austrian intellectual and activist, but they would probably not be commonly defined as being of Asian descent, of Middle Eastern descent or of South Asian descent."
Those individuals are commonly defined as Jews, and Jews qua Jews are commonly (and academically) defined as Middle Eastern, Levantine, Southwest Asian. Jewish is more specific. Similarly, most sources refer to Murray Abraham as Assyrian. They don't say "Middle Eastern" because that goes without saying. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 14:04, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
" Adding "Middle Eastern" categories to Jewish topics might be more akin to slapping Siberian categories on Native Americans, Indian categories for Romani, or Central Asian categories for people from Turkey and Bosnia."
Romani people are under South Asian, and Turks are under Central Asian as well. Bosnians are not because they're not a Turkic people, nor do they have any descent from Central Asia. Category:Native American people are not included under Siberian because their tribal identities were born and forged in North America. They do not identify with Siberia, whereas Jews (in a collective national and ethnic sense) do identify with Israel, hence "Am Yisra'el" (the nation of Israel). Again, it's not the same. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 14:18, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
"Please don't mistake disagreeing for ignoring."
Most of my points were indeed ignored. At least 3/4 of them were never addressed at all. There were attempts to answer the other 1/4, but I addressed each of those counterpoints immediately afterward. Unless there's something I'm missing.
Speaking of which, some more replies...
"I wouldn't say that it has been "proven" that "ethnic Jews" are of Middle Eastern descent."
Except it has been proven. There are no less than 36 reliable sources in this thread proving exactly that.
"The point is to determine if this 2000-year-old descent is WP:DEFINING enough to be the basis for a category inclusion for people categories."
We are widely defined as a Middle Eastern people and diaspora. For example, I highly doubt Jews in Europe, North America, or any place outside Israel would be widely referred to as "diaspora Jews" if that weren't the case. There are also reams of academic sources demonstrating and reaffirming this descent right here, in this thread. I don't know what else you could possibly want?
But if you have any RS demonstrating that Jews are NOT commonly defined as Middle Eastern, that'd be helpful.
"And for it to be defining for a person, I would expect at least that they would be able to show a genealogy tree going back to Antiquity."
This is an unreasonable request. As shown via countless other examples, no other ethnic or national group is expected, let alone required, to share their own family trees just to have their origins acknowledged. Not the Romani. Not the Turks. Not North African Arabs. Nor anyone else EXCEPT for Jews. Why?
In most cases, we simply take an ethnic group's narrative as given and - with a few reliable sources here and there - list them accordingly. Jews qua Jews meet both of these requirements vis a vis Middle Eastern descent. We've defined ourselves that way for our entire existence, and the reliable sources are all right there. But for some reason, that's not good enough for you.
"To place this descent category on a people category amounts to say that we can be reasonably sure that everybody in this category (say, "North American people of Jewish descent") can show such a tree."
We don't enforce these standards on any other group. Why here? Why the Jews?
Why? No one, not a single person, has even made the slightest attempt at answering these questions. And that is why I remain wholly unconvinced that these longstanding categories should be removed.
"You are making some assumptions here which amount to claims of racial purity:"
No one, to my knowledge, made any such claim. Racial purity is not required to place an ethnic group under a specific descent category.
"Even putting aside the eventual cases of conversion of an entire group to Judaism, we must consider either that the Jews did not intermix with their neighbours during thousands of years, or that they descend from both Middle Eastern ancestors and many other ancestors:"
There is no evidence of entire groups converting to Judaism, outside of the Khazars. And they ceased to exist centuries ago.
There was substantial conversion in some parts of the world (notably Ethiopia and India), but these Jewish groups still have proven Middle Eastern descent. Significantly less than other Jewish groups, but it's still there. And unless one wants to impose genetic/race purity laws on Jews, there's no reason to disqualify or exclude it. For example, it's 100% possible to acknowledge the African descent of Jews who lived in Africa while also acknowledging their Middle Eastern descent. They are not in competition. That's why "People of African-Jewish descent" is under People of African descent AND People of Jewish descent.
Furthermore, the above mentioned groups amount to less than 1% of world Jewry. We're talking maybe a few hundred thousand out of at least 14 million people. 99% of the world's Jews are either Ashkenazi, Sephardi, or Mizrahi (or some combination of the three), and all of these groups are verifiably of Middle Eastern descent. Europeans and Muslims weren't exactly queueing up to convert to Judaism.
But even ignoring all of that, no other ethnic group is required to be accurate 1:1 to be eligible for a descent category. I gave countless examples of the opposite.
"in the case of Askhenazi Jews for instance, Category:People of European descent, Category:People of Slavic descent or Category:People of German descent would be just as legitimate."
People of German-Jewish descent are under people of German descent already. Likewise, people of Czech-Jewish descent are under people of Czech descent. And through there, both are under people of European descent. So their diaspora history, at the very least, is not being erased. The problem is people wanting to erase the pre-diaspora history.
Point being, Ashkenazim can be acknowledged as both European and Middle Eastern. It's not one or the other. Nor should it be.
"Here is the key point: singling out the Middle Eastern descent and placating it on every Jewish descent category is cherrypicking the line of descent which suits best your point of view, and giving UNDUE weight to this line over others, both of which are totally against the basis of NPOV."
No one is doing that.
"All I can say is that the descent of French people from Gauls and Celts is very much a topic of consideration and is at the heart of French 19th-century and 20th-century nationalism, see fr:Nos ancêtres les Gaulois if you read French."
You're still not quite getting it.
Modern French people do NOT identify as Gauls. They don't identify as Celts. The Gallic people and ethnic identity are extinct. The Jewish people and ethnic identity (i.e. Judean) are NOT extinct. It's just not comparable.
"Greeks constructed their national identity around that of the ancient Hellenes."
Hellenes and Greeks are the same people. And I don't know of a single person who challenges the descent of Greeks - broadly speaking - from the Hellenes, although it can be safely assumed that not all present-day Greeks actually descend from ancient ones.
"Russians make much commotion about the old Kievan Rus' and therefore come to interfere in Ukraine's business."
This is basically the same thing as the ancient Hellenes example above.
"Mormon beliefs assert that they descend from the original Israelites which would have crossed the ocean to America in Pre-Columbian times, and they are not the only ones, see British Israelism."
Neither of these groups actually have Israelite descent, though. There is no evidence for it whatsoever.
The same clearly cannot be said of today's Jews. Again, this is reaching.
"WP:DUCK"
This is WP:Conspiracy theory. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk) 00:14, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
Another thing worth noting is that anyone can become Assyrian, or Maronite, or Shawnee, etc. But we still categorize the first two under Middle Eastern people and the third under indigenous peoples/ethnicities of North America. The Human Trumpet Solo ( talk)
Cite error: There are <ref group=note>
tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=note}}
template (see the
help page).