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There is some controversy over the use of this category. However, the article on Kurdistan clearly states what the name means, and this category is applied to those geographical areas that are traditionally Kurdish, and does not imply a political stance. This approach is also based on the historical existence of Kurdistan as a political division of the Ottoman Empire. -- Gareth Hughes 15:05, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I would very much like to see specific administrative divisions of Turkey (20 provinces, I counted) removed from under the category of Kurdistan. I was going to do it myself, but do not want enter into a tug of war. (1.) The categorization has militant (not to say chimerical) content, no official value. It is not confirmed by the votes obtained by militantly Kurdish political entities in Turkey. The more so because not all citizens of Kurdish stock in Turkey vote for them. People living there have a say as much as ... (2.) 'Geographical areas that are traditionally Kurdish' as a basis is very open to discussion. Try replacing 'Kurdish' with any other ethnic denomination in the same context and you have explosive material. (3.) The article that treats 'historical existence of Kurdistan as a political division of the Ottoman Empire' is a stub. I learned that Bedirhan Bey had revolted for the Kurdish cause back in 1847 and a Kurdistan province had been constituted and then a few years later, new administrative arrangements had been brought into effect because of that. Well, and then what? The article on the 'administrative divisions of the Ottoman Empire' seem desperately short of maps (they are asking for them!) relating to different periods and names. I am mischievously tempted to bring out other regional names in history as 'Rum' and 'Turkestan' and 'Padania' but I will avoid the temptation.
I think categorizing any article on a location in Turkey under the category 'Kurdistan' should be avoided. It would be unavoidably political. There is a Turkish saying that goes like, 'It takes one fool to throw a stone into a well, and it takes forty intelligent men to pull it out.' -- Cretanforever 08:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Kurdistan is a geographical area. This doesnot necessarily have a political meaning. It has been used for the first time in 12th century by the Seljuk Sultans. The term is being used in Iraq and Iran officially,and it can be found on all encyclopaedias such as Britannica. The category is important since it shows which areas this term is referring to. There is a Kurdistan page, and if this category is removed then users unfamiliar with the region won't be able to understand that article in the geographical/historical context as well. Many of the articles here refer to the geography and history of the region. I agree that in Turkey this term isnot recognized, but this is only after 1923. May be a compromise solution is to acknowledge somewhere that the term isnot recognized by Turkey. Heja Helweda 19:39, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
The Category Kurdistan has repeatedly been removed and I feel that tagging articles about the region that Kurds live in is a reasonable thing and will be adding the category back to the Batman articles and others. The primary argument (beyond personal opinion) used for the repeated removal has been that it somehow implies that Kurdistan is a country; as far as I know, no one has advanced the idea that it is a country — it demonstrably is not. However, the category has twice survived CFD and the use of the category does not really have this implication, it simply indicates that an area is a part of the historic lands of the Kurds, the land they have, and do, live in. Kurdistan may, at some point, become an independent nation — with northern Iraq as a likely start — but beyond documenting populations and the fact that there is a movement for the establishment of a Kurdish state, wikipedia articles should not, obviously, misrepresent the current state of the Land of the Kurds. Areas that can reasonably be cited as having predominate and historical Kurdish populations should be so categorized. -- Moby 11:52, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree, Moby, we have two issues at stake here. 1) Whether 'Kurdistan' is a legitimate category, 2) What articles fit into this category.
The first question has been answered positively in the CfD vote. However, I believe that before we start adding this category haphazardly to a lot of articles, we might better find a consensus on issue number two. The right place for such a discussion would be the category's talk page. What do you all think? Please answer that question on Category talk:Kurdistan ;-) -- Hippalus 13:10, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
When English speakers see a proper noun ending -stan they think of it in political terms. They regard "stan" as meaning "country".
So how about a name change for the category tags applied to Turkish provinces and other places where substantial numbers of Kurds dwell?
I propose category:Kurdish inhabited region. What do you all think? -- Uncle Ed 20:02, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
FYI, this new category, Category:Kurdish inhabited regions, is currently nominated for deletion - see Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_May_27#Category:Kurdish_inhabited_regions. Bertilvidet 14:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
In my view, articles about Kurdish inhabited regions of Middle East (cities, towns, provinces), with a Kurdish majority, can be tagged under this category, since that's the definition of the term Kurdistan. This applies to Turkey/Iran/Iraq/Syria. Heja Helweda 00:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
From the Oxford English Dictionary of "Kurd":
So there we have it, the area of Kurdistan is northern Iran and Iraq, eastern Turkey and adjacent regions of the former USSR. Any competing defintions? - FrancisTyers 13:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
As a competing definition; anywhere in Turkey where the pro-Kurdish party (parties) obtains more than half the votes. As opposed to the parties who has not been seen pronouncing or advocating the term, or even has been seen loathing it (Turkish nationalist MHP scores better than Kurdish nationalists in some parts of the alleged Turkish K.). I fear being led to the conclusion that the naming of their geographies will be done against the wishes of a large part of the populations there. -- Cretanforever 09:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Thrace article is an article, not a category. -- Cretanforever 12:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I have been asked to come here to offer a neutral point of view. As I stated over at Talk:Batman, Turkey though, just because one person has asked me to come here, doesn't mean I'm going to side with them.
As Moby pointed out quite eloquently above Areas that can reasonably be cited as having predominate and historical Kurdish populations should be so categorized and this I have to say is something that I agree with. At first glance however Category:Kurdistan doesn't actually say that. It doesn't say anything other than that this article has something to do with Kurdistan and I don't believe that is specific enough for the purpose of including this category in articles like Batman, Turkey. It needs to be obvious from the article content as to why that category has been included, and if you have pointed out (for example) Such and such city is predominantly Kurdish, then the category needs to be (merely an example) Category:Cities of predominantly Kurdish population. Or Category:Places formerly in Kurdistan. Or whatever: you're the experts on this subject, not me.
An example from my own editing experience is Category:Places formerly in Buckinghamshire, which is a sub-category (eventually) of Category:Buckinghamshire. The articles under the former category have something to do with Buckinghamshire, but just including them in that category with no other information may come across as misleading, which is why we have sub-categories. I note that at present there isn't actually a sub-category that says what you (Moby) pointed out above.
As far as the CFD goes this is a legitimate category, and I'm not questioning that at all. --
Fr
a
ncs2000
23:40, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The fact is that Kurdish people make the majority in this cities and provinces, then if someone dosen´t want this to appear or being showed here at Wikipedia or somewhere welse, that´s a another story.
SO I see no wrong to link this cities to Category:kurdish cities, with the text, cities in Iraq, Turkey, Iran and Syria where kurds form the majority of the population. -- Otro DiA OtrO DiA 11:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
WHAT HAS NOT SHOWN ON THE MAP
As i checked map has shown is not real measure of the kurdistan borders as it is estimated area.whereas if someone knows historical roots of kurds would have known the kurdistan is from mediterranean to urmiye lake and from black sea coast to abbasid built military town samarra.
historical kurdish tribes inhabited area was included present armenia,azerbaycan and some extented areas in central anatolia and caucasus region.Armenian came to region and settled 6th century bc and just a century later persians.a.c 7h arabs and 11th century turkomans.high mountained area has not been changed his population as kurds was dominately controlled the high mountaines but central towns had controlled by the central powers and settled by them.Today in the kurdistan,there is a high populated turkish people.between urfa to siirt arabs.in the south musul kerkuk has sizeable arabs turkomans.in the iranian kurdistan by the persian or other regional people such as lurs gilaks mazenderans.
in the present day kurds claimes their soil back which had occupied in the last 3 milenia.But
present day kurdistan carrying out with lots of conflicts and indefinite popluation and borders
problems.But at least kurds wants their occupied lands should be recognized and to be known their historical connections with their occupied geography not to be assimilated by the three central power of middle east.turks,arabs and persians.
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
82.39.9.237 (
talk •
contribs)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There is some controversy over the use of this category. However, the article on Kurdistan clearly states what the name means, and this category is applied to those geographical areas that are traditionally Kurdish, and does not imply a political stance. This approach is also based on the historical existence of Kurdistan as a political division of the Ottoman Empire. -- Gareth Hughes 15:05, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
I would very much like to see specific administrative divisions of Turkey (20 provinces, I counted) removed from under the category of Kurdistan. I was going to do it myself, but do not want enter into a tug of war. (1.) The categorization has militant (not to say chimerical) content, no official value. It is not confirmed by the votes obtained by militantly Kurdish political entities in Turkey. The more so because not all citizens of Kurdish stock in Turkey vote for them. People living there have a say as much as ... (2.) 'Geographical areas that are traditionally Kurdish' as a basis is very open to discussion. Try replacing 'Kurdish' with any other ethnic denomination in the same context and you have explosive material. (3.) The article that treats 'historical existence of Kurdistan as a political division of the Ottoman Empire' is a stub. I learned that Bedirhan Bey had revolted for the Kurdish cause back in 1847 and a Kurdistan province had been constituted and then a few years later, new administrative arrangements had been brought into effect because of that. Well, and then what? The article on the 'administrative divisions of the Ottoman Empire' seem desperately short of maps (they are asking for them!) relating to different periods and names. I am mischievously tempted to bring out other regional names in history as 'Rum' and 'Turkestan' and 'Padania' but I will avoid the temptation.
I think categorizing any article on a location in Turkey under the category 'Kurdistan' should be avoided. It would be unavoidably political. There is a Turkish saying that goes like, 'It takes one fool to throw a stone into a well, and it takes forty intelligent men to pull it out.' -- Cretanforever 08:10, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Kurdistan is a geographical area. This doesnot necessarily have a political meaning. It has been used for the first time in 12th century by the Seljuk Sultans. The term is being used in Iraq and Iran officially,and it can be found on all encyclopaedias such as Britannica. The category is important since it shows which areas this term is referring to. There is a Kurdistan page, and if this category is removed then users unfamiliar with the region won't be able to understand that article in the geographical/historical context as well. Many of the articles here refer to the geography and history of the region. I agree that in Turkey this term isnot recognized, but this is only after 1923. May be a compromise solution is to acknowledge somewhere that the term isnot recognized by Turkey. Heja Helweda 19:39, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
The Category Kurdistan has repeatedly been removed and I feel that tagging articles about the region that Kurds live in is a reasonable thing and will be adding the category back to the Batman articles and others. The primary argument (beyond personal opinion) used for the repeated removal has been that it somehow implies that Kurdistan is a country; as far as I know, no one has advanced the idea that it is a country — it demonstrably is not. However, the category has twice survived CFD and the use of the category does not really have this implication, it simply indicates that an area is a part of the historic lands of the Kurds, the land they have, and do, live in. Kurdistan may, at some point, become an independent nation — with northern Iraq as a likely start — but beyond documenting populations and the fact that there is a movement for the establishment of a Kurdish state, wikipedia articles should not, obviously, misrepresent the current state of the Land of the Kurds. Areas that can reasonably be cited as having predominate and historical Kurdish populations should be so categorized. -- Moby 11:52, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree, Moby, we have two issues at stake here. 1) Whether 'Kurdistan' is a legitimate category, 2) What articles fit into this category.
The first question has been answered positively in the CfD vote. However, I believe that before we start adding this category haphazardly to a lot of articles, we might better find a consensus on issue number two. The right place for such a discussion would be the category's talk page. What do you all think? Please answer that question on Category talk:Kurdistan ;-) -- Hippalus 13:10, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
When English speakers see a proper noun ending -stan they think of it in political terms. They regard "stan" as meaning "country".
So how about a name change for the category tags applied to Turkish provinces and other places where substantial numbers of Kurds dwell?
I propose category:Kurdish inhabited region. What do you all think? -- Uncle Ed 20:02, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
FYI, this new category, Category:Kurdish inhabited regions, is currently nominated for deletion - see Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_May_27#Category:Kurdish_inhabited_regions. Bertilvidet 14:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
In my view, articles about Kurdish inhabited regions of Middle East (cities, towns, provinces), with a Kurdish majority, can be tagged under this category, since that's the definition of the term Kurdistan. This applies to Turkey/Iran/Iraq/Syria. Heja Helweda 00:07, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
From the Oxford English Dictionary of "Kurd":
So there we have it, the area of Kurdistan is northern Iran and Iraq, eastern Turkey and adjacent regions of the former USSR. Any competing defintions? - FrancisTyers 13:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
As a competing definition; anywhere in Turkey where the pro-Kurdish party (parties) obtains more than half the votes. As opposed to the parties who has not been seen pronouncing or advocating the term, or even has been seen loathing it (Turkish nationalist MHP scores better than Kurdish nationalists in some parts of the alleged Turkish K.). I fear being led to the conclusion that the naming of their geographies will be done against the wishes of a large part of the populations there. -- Cretanforever 09:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Thrace article is an article, not a category. -- Cretanforever 12:22, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
I have been asked to come here to offer a neutral point of view. As I stated over at Talk:Batman, Turkey though, just because one person has asked me to come here, doesn't mean I'm going to side with them.
As Moby pointed out quite eloquently above Areas that can reasonably be cited as having predominate and historical Kurdish populations should be so categorized and this I have to say is something that I agree with. At first glance however Category:Kurdistan doesn't actually say that. It doesn't say anything other than that this article has something to do with Kurdistan and I don't believe that is specific enough for the purpose of including this category in articles like Batman, Turkey. It needs to be obvious from the article content as to why that category has been included, and if you have pointed out (for example) Such and such city is predominantly Kurdish, then the category needs to be (merely an example) Category:Cities of predominantly Kurdish population. Or Category:Places formerly in Kurdistan. Or whatever: you're the experts on this subject, not me.
An example from my own editing experience is Category:Places formerly in Buckinghamshire, which is a sub-category (eventually) of Category:Buckinghamshire. The articles under the former category have something to do with Buckinghamshire, but just including them in that category with no other information may come across as misleading, which is why we have sub-categories. I note that at present there isn't actually a sub-category that says what you (Moby) pointed out above.
As far as the CFD goes this is a legitimate category, and I'm not questioning that at all. --
Fr
a
ncs2000
23:40, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
The fact is that Kurdish people make the majority in this cities and provinces, then if someone dosen´t want this to appear or being showed here at Wikipedia or somewhere welse, that´s a another story.
SO I see no wrong to link this cities to Category:kurdish cities, with the text, cities in Iraq, Turkey, Iran and Syria where kurds form the majority of the population. -- Otro DiA OtrO DiA 11:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
WHAT HAS NOT SHOWN ON THE MAP
As i checked map has shown is not real measure of the kurdistan borders as it is estimated area.whereas if someone knows historical roots of kurds would have known the kurdistan is from mediterranean to urmiye lake and from black sea coast to abbasid built military town samarra.
historical kurdish tribes inhabited area was included present armenia,azerbaycan and some extented areas in central anatolia and caucasus region.Armenian came to region and settled 6th century bc and just a century later persians.a.c 7h arabs and 11th century turkomans.high mountained area has not been changed his population as kurds was dominately controlled the high mountaines but central towns had controlled by the central powers and settled by them.Today in the kurdistan,there is a high populated turkish people.between urfa to siirt arabs.in the south musul kerkuk has sizeable arabs turkomans.in the iranian kurdistan by the persian or other regional people such as lurs gilaks mazenderans.
in the present day kurds claimes their soil back which had occupied in the last 3 milenia.But
present day kurdistan carrying out with lots of conflicts and indefinite popluation and borders
problems.But at least kurds wants their occupied lands should be recognized and to be known their historical connections with their occupied geography not to be assimilated by the three central power of middle east.turks,arabs and persians.
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
82.39.9.237 (
talk •
contribs)