![]() | This category does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||
|
![]() | Most of the discussion relating to this and other stub categories occurs at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stub sorting. You may wish to consider leaving a note there rather than here. |
I think we should remove the following from this category's text:
In practice, the country related sub-categories are not geography sub-categories at all, but general usage categories for all types of article relating to that country. -- Chris j wood 22:44, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Is it still necessary for all of the geo-stub categories to go directly into Category:Stub categories in addition to this category? Could we just put them here and include a list at the top (since the list is there anyway)? That would seriously cut down on the number of stubs displaying in the parent category, making it much easier to tell what is going on. - Aranel ("Sarah") 23:18, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Where's the stub for England (as opposed to UK)? — MacRusgail 11:22, July 11, 2005
England currently has over 2000 stubs - far too big for a stub category to be effective. The original plan was simply to take out the easier to digest chunks like Scotland, Wales, NI and London in the hope that the size of the main category would come down to something useful - it didn't. For this reason there is currently discussion underway at WP:WSS/C about the best way to split the remaining stubs up. The present suggestion is to split England into the nine governmental regions, to make usably-sized stub categories. The oher possibility is to do a tally of what is in this category and remove individula counties. In either case, there will be separate categories for different parts of England soon. Grutness... wha? 23:50, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Okay - there's three distinct points here so:
Grutness... wha? 00:38, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
When the splitting was started, there was no idea just how many stubs there would be for each individual country, so the bigger countries were pared off first (such as the US and the UK), then the more obvious of the rest. Others were simply grouped by region until it was kniown whether they would reach the WP:WSS criteria for splitting. Now, several of them are so large they are being proposed for further split. In the case of the Channel Islands and IoM, they have never got close to threshold, but, as I say, the UK category is in the process of being discussed for split. If you want to propose a separate category for the Channel islands and can show that there are over 60 current stubs for there, then feel free to do so at WP:WSS/C, where such proposals are debated. Given that the split is likely to be started in the next week, then a separate category for one or the other, or both, may well take place then. As for where to put them for now, as it says quite clearly at the top of Category:Europe geography stubs, UK-geo-stub is used for "United Kingdom (including the Isle of Man and Channel Isles) ". Please don't just use geo-stub for them, since I'll simply have to move them again! Grutness... wha? 00:30, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Where is written that one must have a certain number of articles to create a new category. Pedantry demands that stubs for the British Crown Dependencies should not be in UK_geography_stubs (some pedants would say they should not even be in a sub-category of it). So if the CI and IoM stubs want a category of their own why can't they have one? Category:Candidates_for_speedy_deletion usually has less than 60 items and no one complains about that. -- RHaworth 10:12, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I did a "guesstimate" from the UK geo stubs, and if 60-100 is the lower threshold, wouldn't Cornwall qualify? I suggest {{UKC-geo-stub}} and a small St Piran's cross. Also would Yorkshire qualify as well?-- MacRusgail 20:06, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Currently, there are separate geography stub categories for Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. A separate category for England has been mooted, but it would contain some 3800 stub articles, considerably more than is regarded as optimum according to Wikipedia: WikiProject Stub sorting guidelines (which roughly state that stub categories should have between 100 and 600 items to be of best use to editors). In order to remedy this situation, all 3860 current unsubcategorised UK geography stubs have just been tallied to see whereabouts they refer to. Discussions are now underway with regard to splitting off regions or individual counties that have over 100 stub articles. Understandably, given the confusion between traditional counties, ceremonial counties, and the split of city areas over the last few decades, this is a thorny issue. We at WP:WSS would welcome any input at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Criteria#Further_split_of_UK-geo-stub. Grutness... wha? 03:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Who shall learn this: AfricaC <> CAsia <> CentralAm ? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 02:20, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I pointed it out because I thought it would be of use to editors interested in Argentinian articles. Obviously I was wrong in your case, since you are happy to put them in the general geo-stub categpory where Argentinian editors will not find them. But if you want to impede the development of articles on Argentina, so be it - although it seems to be a clearly anti-Argentinian move on your part. I didn't point out a perfectly acceptable template so that you could make your own duplicate of it.
As to the two variants you mention: CentralAm was created before names were standardised (there is a redirect from CAmerica-geo-stub, though), and AfricaC and the others are used instead of CAfrica etc to stop the confusion which would ensue with SAfrica being used for a region (Southern Africa) rather than for a country (South Africa).
You also have to realise that quite a number of the names in use are those created by people who have ignored standard practice and simply created stubs and redirects without proposing them at WP:WSS/C first. If the names were subject to debate first, then there would be virtually no non-standard names. it is people who simply decide to create stubs and redirects for their own use without consensus that cause most of the problems for the stub sorting wikiproject, no matter how well-meaning those creations may be. Grutness... wha? 11:15, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Peru, Venezuela, Ecuador, Colombia, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay should IMO all get their own geo-stub. Splittung SouthAm is too much work. When creating a stub you probably know which country it belongs do. Afterwards by simply seeing it in Cat:SouthAm-geo-stub people may have hard time with locating the stubs correctly. Maybe some of these cats currently do not have much stubs, but certainly these countries are big enough to produce more stubs soon. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 12:02, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Maybe instead of answering here, write a FAQ Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:04, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
why do wales and scotland get UKW/UKS while a country large as Argentina is not allowed a redirect like AR? UK-bias here? And the word wales is allready short!! not to compare with Argentina. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 02:26, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
..."english countries" like Serbia-Montenegro, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kyrgyzstan...? Yet no shortening for countries like Australia, Canada, Malaysia. Most commonwealth countries don't even have separate geo-stub categories. Some bias. We could quite asily have had AU for Australia , CA for Canada and ML for Malaysia, but it would be too confusing, since other countries could easily be mistaken for them, and most people don't have any knowledge of any ISO codes other than for their own country. Maybe AU is left out because people could confuse it with Austria Yes, exactly. Just as AR could be confused for Armenia. Seven whole letters! Woohoo! You clearly don't like your country's name. CUT AND PASTE. As for Northern Ireland being "An english country", I'd advise you not to try saying that in Belfast! Grutness... wha? 00:58, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
The SA-stub was created before the WikiProject formalised the rules for stub names, and several from that time still exist. Many are being changed, but it is a long process. If a separate Saudi Arabia geo-stub is ever needed - which it may be if the number of stubs increases beyond its current 41 - then the name will be changed. Until that time, changing the template on 500 or so South African geography stubs is not a high priority. By the way, you may be interested to know, given my "obvious pro-British bias", that there may well soon be a Northamptonshire-geo-stub for the 200 or so stubs from that English county. Of course, the British postcodes are easy enough for anyone to look up, so I could simply make it NN-geo-stub, but no, it goes against naming policy. As for P.N.G.-geo-stub, yes, it probably should have stops. But stops are not used in stub template names. Ever. Otherwise we would have U.K.-geo-stub, U.S.-geo-stub... and Argentina-geo-stub. In other words, this is totally meaningless in the context of your argument. What I call international is what is used throughout the english-speaking world (perhaps you have forgotten that this is the English language version of Wikipedia?). As for PNG, if we ever need a network graphics geo-stub, for towns and cities within the mythical land of Portablenetworkgraphica then we will have to change PNG-geo-stub. As for my "British understanding of international", it has come about through living and working in a number of different countries (I have not been to Britain for over 30 years). Are you seriously trying to tell me that the people in Argentina, or Ghana, or Iran, or Mexicodo not recognise "U.S." as referring to the United states, or "U.K." as referring to the United Kingdom? Because if you are I can find you many, many examples to prove you incorrect. As to "just me and my friends", it is the WP:WSS naming conventions that we're talking about here, not some arbitrary rule that I've decided on off the top of my head. Grutness... wha? 00:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
There's no point in carrying on with this. You're simply arguing from an inflexible position based on what you want, I'm simply arguing from an inflexible position based on Wikipedia naming convention. The whole argument is a waste of time. It's also in completely the wrong place - this should either have been argued at Template talk:Argentina-geo-stub or at SFD. Grutness... wha? 00:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This category does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | Most of the discussion relating to this and other stub categories occurs at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stub sorting. You may wish to consider leaving a note there rather than here. |
I think we should remove the following from this category's text:
In practice, the country related sub-categories are not geography sub-categories at all, but general usage categories for all types of article relating to that country. -- Chris j wood 22:44, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Is it still necessary for all of the geo-stub categories to go directly into Category:Stub categories in addition to this category? Could we just put them here and include a list at the top (since the list is there anyway)? That would seriously cut down on the number of stubs displaying in the parent category, making it much easier to tell what is going on. - Aranel ("Sarah") 23:18, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Where's the stub for England (as opposed to UK)? — MacRusgail 11:22, July 11, 2005
England currently has over 2000 stubs - far too big for a stub category to be effective. The original plan was simply to take out the easier to digest chunks like Scotland, Wales, NI and London in the hope that the size of the main category would come down to something useful - it didn't. For this reason there is currently discussion underway at WP:WSS/C about the best way to split the remaining stubs up. The present suggestion is to split England into the nine governmental regions, to make usably-sized stub categories. The oher possibility is to do a tally of what is in this category and remove individula counties. In either case, there will be separate categories for different parts of England soon. Grutness... wha? 23:50, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
Okay - there's three distinct points here so:
Grutness... wha? 00:38, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
When the splitting was started, there was no idea just how many stubs there would be for each individual country, so the bigger countries were pared off first (such as the US and the UK), then the more obvious of the rest. Others were simply grouped by region until it was kniown whether they would reach the WP:WSS criteria for splitting. Now, several of them are so large they are being proposed for further split. In the case of the Channel Islands and IoM, they have never got close to threshold, but, as I say, the UK category is in the process of being discussed for split. If you want to propose a separate category for the Channel islands and can show that there are over 60 current stubs for there, then feel free to do so at WP:WSS/C, where such proposals are debated. Given that the split is likely to be started in the next week, then a separate category for one or the other, or both, may well take place then. As for where to put them for now, as it says quite clearly at the top of Category:Europe geography stubs, UK-geo-stub is used for "United Kingdom (including the Isle of Man and Channel Isles) ". Please don't just use geo-stub for them, since I'll simply have to move them again! Grutness... wha? 00:30, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Where is written that one must have a certain number of articles to create a new category. Pedantry demands that stubs for the British Crown Dependencies should not be in UK_geography_stubs (some pedants would say they should not even be in a sub-category of it). So if the CI and IoM stubs want a category of their own why can't they have one? Category:Candidates_for_speedy_deletion usually has less than 60 items and no one complains about that. -- RHaworth 10:12, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
I did a "guesstimate" from the UK geo stubs, and if 60-100 is the lower threshold, wouldn't Cornwall qualify? I suggest {{UKC-geo-stub}} and a small St Piran's cross. Also would Yorkshire qualify as well?-- MacRusgail 20:06, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Currently, there are separate geography stub categories for Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. A separate category for England has been mooted, but it would contain some 3800 stub articles, considerably more than is regarded as optimum according to Wikipedia: WikiProject Stub sorting guidelines (which roughly state that stub categories should have between 100 and 600 items to be of best use to editors). In order to remedy this situation, all 3860 current unsubcategorised UK geography stubs have just been tallied to see whereabouts they refer to. Discussions are now underway with regard to splitting off regions or individual counties that have over 100 stub articles. Understandably, given the confusion between traditional counties, ceremonial counties, and the split of city areas over the last few decades, this is a thorny issue. We at WP:WSS would welcome any input at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Criteria#Further_split_of_UK-geo-stub. Grutness... wha? 03:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
Who shall learn this: AfricaC <> CAsia <> CentralAm ? Tobias Conradi (Talk) 02:20, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
I pointed it out because I thought it would be of use to editors interested in Argentinian articles. Obviously I was wrong in your case, since you are happy to put them in the general geo-stub categpory where Argentinian editors will not find them. But if you want to impede the development of articles on Argentina, so be it - although it seems to be a clearly anti-Argentinian move on your part. I didn't point out a perfectly acceptable template so that you could make your own duplicate of it.
As to the two variants you mention: CentralAm was created before names were standardised (there is a redirect from CAmerica-geo-stub, though), and AfricaC and the others are used instead of CAfrica etc to stop the confusion which would ensue with SAfrica being used for a region (Southern Africa) rather than for a country (South Africa).
You also have to realise that quite a number of the names in use are those created by people who have ignored standard practice and simply created stubs and redirects without proposing them at WP:WSS/C first. If the names were subject to debate first, then there would be virtually no non-standard names. it is people who simply decide to create stubs and redirects for their own use without consensus that cause most of the problems for the stub sorting wikiproject, no matter how well-meaning those creations may be. Grutness... wha? 11:15, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Peru, Venezuela, Ecuador, Colombia, Bolivia, Paraguay, Uruguay should IMO all get their own geo-stub. Splittung SouthAm is too much work. When creating a stub you probably know which country it belongs do. Afterwards by simply seeing it in Cat:SouthAm-geo-stub people may have hard time with locating the stubs correctly. Maybe some of these cats currently do not have much stubs, but certainly these countries are big enough to produce more stubs soon. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 12:02, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
Maybe instead of answering here, write a FAQ Tobias Conradi (Talk) 11:04, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
why do wales and scotland get UKW/UKS while a country large as Argentina is not allowed a redirect like AR? UK-bias here? And the word wales is allready short!! not to compare with Argentina. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 02:26, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
..."english countries" like Serbia-Montenegro, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kyrgyzstan...? Yet no shortening for countries like Australia, Canada, Malaysia. Most commonwealth countries don't even have separate geo-stub categories. Some bias. We could quite asily have had AU for Australia , CA for Canada and ML for Malaysia, but it would be too confusing, since other countries could easily be mistaken for them, and most people don't have any knowledge of any ISO codes other than for their own country. Maybe AU is left out because people could confuse it with Austria Yes, exactly. Just as AR could be confused for Armenia. Seven whole letters! Woohoo! You clearly don't like your country's name. CUT AND PASTE. As for Northern Ireland being "An english country", I'd advise you not to try saying that in Belfast! Grutness... wha? 00:58, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
The SA-stub was created before the WikiProject formalised the rules for stub names, and several from that time still exist. Many are being changed, but it is a long process. If a separate Saudi Arabia geo-stub is ever needed - which it may be if the number of stubs increases beyond its current 41 - then the name will be changed. Until that time, changing the template on 500 or so South African geography stubs is not a high priority. By the way, you may be interested to know, given my "obvious pro-British bias", that there may well soon be a Northamptonshire-geo-stub for the 200 or so stubs from that English county. Of course, the British postcodes are easy enough for anyone to look up, so I could simply make it NN-geo-stub, but no, it goes against naming policy. As for P.N.G.-geo-stub, yes, it probably should have stops. But stops are not used in stub template names. Ever. Otherwise we would have U.K.-geo-stub, U.S.-geo-stub... and Argentina-geo-stub. In other words, this is totally meaningless in the context of your argument. What I call international is what is used throughout the english-speaking world (perhaps you have forgotten that this is the English language version of Wikipedia?). As for PNG, if we ever need a network graphics geo-stub, for towns and cities within the mythical land of Portablenetworkgraphica then we will have to change PNG-geo-stub. As for my "British understanding of international", it has come about through living and working in a number of different countries (I have not been to Britain for over 30 years). Are you seriously trying to tell me that the people in Argentina, or Ghana, or Iran, or Mexicodo not recognise "U.S." as referring to the United states, or "U.K." as referring to the United Kingdom? Because if you are I can find you many, many examples to prove you incorrect. As to "just me and my friends", it is the WP:WSS naming conventions that we're talking about here, not some arbitrary rule that I've decided on off the top of my head. Grutness... wha? 00:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
There's no point in carrying on with this. You're simply arguing from an inflexible position based on what you want, I'm simply arguing from an inflexible position based on Wikipedia naming convention. The whole argument is a waste of time. It's also in completely the wrong place - this should either have been argued at Template talk:Argentina-geo-stub or at SFD. Grutness... wha? 00:32, 22 July 2005 (UTC)