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:See: Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 14# Orthodox Christian categories.
I noticed that all the pages formerly in Category:Vestments have been put in one or more of Anglican vestments, Roman Catholic vestments, and Orthodox vestments. Many if not all of the vestments currently in Orthodox vestments are also used in the Eastern Catholic Churches. Either the RC category should be added to those pages, or this category should be renamed in a way that refers to the liturgical rite, rather than the juridical church. There is discussion at the Talk:Eastern Rite to move that page to Eastern Catholic Churches (currently a redirect), and have the article at Eastern Rite discuss the rites of the Divine Liturgy common to both Orthodox and Eastern Catholicism. Gimmetrow 15:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, the problem is, if I go to pages such as Sticharion and Phelonion, I find that they are only in categories identified as Orthodox. They are used in Eastern Catholic, non-Orthodox, Churches as well. But if I go to Category:Roman Catholic vestments, they are not in that category. There are various possible solutions.
I tend to prefer the second option. Gimmetrow 17:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, that relates to a different issue about an ambiguous use of "Roman Catholic." When "Roman" refers to being subject to the pope, Eastern Catholics are "Roman". When "Roman" refers to practices particular to the western Catholic Church, they are not "Roman". The latter sense is how "RC" would have to be taken in those two articles. These two senses are mentioned early on in Roman Catholic Church.
Yes this is basically a theological concern for EC. Could you explain further why you have objections to a rename on those grounds?
The other issue is that there may not be many vestments uniquely Eastern Catholic or uniquely Orthodox. Almost every eastern liturgical tradition has a Catholic and an Orthodox use. The third option would probably create two identical categories. The first option would basically create "Orthodox vestments" as a subcategory of "RC vestments." I can see objections to either one, and we probably need other input. Gimmetrow 21:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, I'll try to explain. RC and Orthodox differ mainly over the primacy of the Pope. It also happens that the most common visible ceremonies used by the RC are very different from the visible ceremonies most commonly used by the Orthodox. Eastern Catholics have the same visible ceremonies as the Orthodox, but recognize the primacy of the Pope in the RC sense, and so they identify with being Roman Catholic and not Orthodox. This issue is already reflected in most of the other pages I have looked at, and there is a general category called "Eastern Rite Catholicism".
(There are also other Christian groups which are neither Orthodox nor Roman Catholic, and also have the same visible ceremonies. On wiki these appear to be called "Oriential Orthodox" while what most people would understand by simply "Orthodox" are called "Eastern Orthodox")
This page is a category page. I'm having the discussion here because it relates to a number of pages that are linked to this category. Basically I am objecting to finding articles of relevance to EC that are categorized only as Orthodox. The same articles are relevant to Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy, but "Eastern Rite Catholics" would not identify with either of those categories. Gimmetrow 15:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Now I'm not sure I understand your concern. In so far as vestments are concerned, Latter-day Saints, Adventists, and most Protestants use vestments in the western traditions. No reason "Western Christian" has to mean only RC. On the category redirect from EC to Orthodox, the redirect is in some categories that don't really fit; I can edit that. But back to sticharion, the issue is that the categories there do not include EC. Do we still need to list the category on every article, even it refers to the same thing as Orthodox vestments? Gimmetrow 19:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This category does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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:See: Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 14# Orthodox Christian categories.
I noticed that all the pages formerly in Category:Vestments have been put in one or more of Anglican vestments, Roman Catholic vestments, and Orthodox vestments. Many if not all of the vestments currently in Orthodox vestments are also used in the Eastern Catholic Churches. Either the RC category should be added to those pages, or this category should be renamed in a way that refers to the liturgical rite, rather than the juridical church. There is discussion at the Talk:Eastern Rite to move that page to Eastern Catholic Churches (currently a redirect), and have the article at Eastern Rite discuss the rites of the Divine Liturgy common to both Orthodox and Eastern Catholicism. Gimmetrow 15:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, the problem is, if I go to pages such as Sticharion and Phelonion, I find that they are only in categories identified as Orthodox. They are used in Eastern Catholic, non-Orthodox, Churches as well. But if I go to Category:Roman Catholic vestments, they are not in that category. There are various possible solutions.
I tend to prefer the second option. Gimmetrow 17:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, that relates to a different issue about an ambiguous use of "Roman Catholic." When "Roman" refers to being subject to the pope, Eastern Catholics are "Roman". When "Roman" refers to practices particular to the western Catholic Church, they are not "Roman". The latter sense is how "RC" would have to be taken in those two articles. These two senses are mentioned early on in Roman Catholic Church.
Yes this is basically a theological concern for EC. Could you explain further why you have objections to a rename on those grounds?
The other issue is that there may not be many vestments uniquely Eastern Catholic or uniquely Orthodox. Almost every eastern liturgical tradition has a Catholic and an Orthodox use. The third option would probably create two identical categories. The first option would basically create "Orthodox vestments" as a subcategory of "RC vestments." I can see objections to either one, and we probably need other input. Gimmetrow 21:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, I'll try to explain. RC and Orthodox differ mainly over the primacy of the Pope. It also happens that the most common visible ceremonies used by the RC are very different from the visible ceremonies most commonly used by the Orthodox. Eastern Catholics have the same visible ceremonies as the Orthodox, but recognize the primacy of the Pope in the RC sense, and so they identify with being Roman Catholic and not Orthodox. This issue is already reflected in most of the other pages I have looked at, and there is a general category called "Eastern Rite Catholicism".
(There are also other Christian groups which are neither Orthodox nor Roman Catholic, and also have the same visible ceremonies. On wiki these appear to be called "Oriential Orthodox" while what most people would understand by simply "Orthodox" are called "Eastern Orthodox")
This page is a category page. I'm having the discussion here because it relates to a number of pages that are linked to this category. Basically I am objecting to finding articles of relevance to EC that are categorized only as Orthodox. The same articles are relevant to Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy, but "Eastern Rite Catholics" would not identify with either of those categories. Gimmetrow 15:58, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
Now I'm not sure I understand your concern. In so far as vestments are concerned, Latter-day Saints, Adventists, and most Protestants use vestments in the western traditions. No reason "Western Christian" has to mean only RC. On the category redirect from EC to Orthodox, the redirect is in some categories that don't really fit; I can edit that. But back to sticharion, the issue is that the categories there do not include EC. Do we still need to list the category on every article, even it refers to the same thing as Orthodox vestments? Gimmetrow 19:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)