This category is part of WikiProject Alternative music, a group of Wikipedians interested in improving the encyclopedic coverage of articles relating to
alternative rock. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by
the project page and/or leave a query at
the project's talk page.Alternative musicWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative musicTemplate:WikiProject Alternative musicAlternative music articles
This category is within the scope of the
Pixies task force, a task force which is currently considered to be inactive.
@
Koavf: I guess it isn't as common for musicians. Clearly you are passionate about this, so I'm not going to press further. Still though, I think it is a bad idea to have these parentless categories. —Mr. Guye (
talk) (
contribs)
00:13, 16 October 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Mr. Guye: I'm confused as to why you even brought up this topic if the only response you have to even the mildest questioning or scrutiny is "whatever". I want to discuss this with you; do you have anything to say in response to my questions? And these categories aren't parentless--they are just part of a scheme for categorization that is for Wikipedia maintenance. How are these musician categories different from other eponymous categories? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯00:21, 16 October 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Koavf: They are parentless if you are a non-editor, who can't see hidden categories. For examples of eponymous categories that actually do have content parent categories, see:
Categories using the name of a person hold articles directly related to that person. Remember this when placing the article in larger categories. If the person is a member of a category, put the article about the person in the larger category. If articles directly related to the person are also members of the larger category, put the category with the person's name in the larger category. This often results in the article and category being categorized differently. For an example of this see
George W. Bush and
Category:George W. Bush.
@
Mr. Guye: Which categories should eponymous categories be in and under what circumstances? We clearly have some disagreement here and it relates to a lot more than just this category. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯01:13, 16 October 2018 (UTC)reply
As I have complained before, the category system is trying to do two jobs and falling between the stools. Membership can mean either "is a" or "is somehow related to". Whilst
Black Francis is an American alternative rock musician,
Category:Black Francis isn't and nor are many of its members, so it can only qualify using the "is somehow related to" criterion. I would add such categories only to tree(s) of "categories of categories", i.e. leave it only in
Category:Wikipedia categories named after American musicians and any "Wikipedia categories that ..." categories that it belongs in. This avoids false conclusions such as "
Headache (song) is a musician" which can be reached by traversing the category tree and incorrectly assuming "is a" relationships.
Certes (
talk)
11:13, 16 October 2018 (UTC)reply
I think a wholesale switch would be too difficult but the ability to identify more clearly which is which would help readers, especially when using tools such as
PetScan.
Certes (
talk)
18:02, 16 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Certes, I see no guideline or policy that supports your claim that category membership can mean "is somehow related to", and a couple of guidelines that say it does not mean this, including
WP:NONDEF which says that such categorization should be avoided. Upon what are you basing your claim?
Mathglot (
talk)
09:15, 18 October 2018 (UTC)reply
I agree that no guideline says this should happen. I base my claim on what articles actually do appear in categories. For example,
Category:William Shakespeare contains
an asteroid,
an insult and
a lawsuit. Such vaguely associated members can be useful and only become a problem if we classify that category within a parent category which should be reserved for articles. The Shakespeare category
used to be in inappropriate parents such as
Category:16th-century English writers, at which point a category traversal searching for writers would come up with asteroids, insults, etc.
Certes (
talk)
09:43, 18 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Well,
other stuff happens, and it should be based on policy and guidelines, don't you agree? If you think categories like that are useful then you should attempt to gain
consensus for a change of policy at
WT:CAT. (Once upon a time, I agreed with you, until I came around to the prevailing point of view.) But as long as this is the policy, we should not knowingly go against it, just because we think it is "useful" as the community has decided otherwise. As far as your examples, eponymous categories for people generally should not be created although Shakespeare may well be an exception; this is governed by
WP:OCEPON. As two of the three articles don't qualify imho per
WP:CATDEF, I've removed them from the category. For the other one (Prick) I've changed the category to
Category:Shakespearean phrases, which does satisfy CATDEF. We'll see if that sticks. Three down, nine hundred thousand to go...
Mathglot (
talk)
10:32, 18 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Thank you for tidying up. I agree that we should be following the guidelines but, as you imply, fixing all cases would be an ambitious task. The most practical solution may be to keep eponymous categories out of inappropriate parents.
Certes (
talk)
11:04, 18 October 2018 (UTC)reply
This category is part of WikiProject Alternative music, a group of Wikipedians interested in improving the encyclopedic coverage of articles relating to
alternative rock. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by
the project page and/or leave a query at
the project's talk page.Alternative musicWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative musicTemplate:WikiProject Alternative musicAlternative music articles
This category is within the scope of the
Pixies task force, a task force which is currently considered to be inactive.
@
Koavf: I guess it isn't as common for musicians. Clearly you are passionate about this, so I'm not going to press further. Still though, I think it is a bad idea to have these parentless categories. —Mr. Guye (
talk) (
contribs)
00:13, 16 October 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Mr. Guye: I'm confused as to why you even brought up this topic if the only response you have to even the mildest questioning or scrutiny is "whatever". I want to discuss this with you; do you have anything to say in response to my questions? And these categories aren't parentless--they are just part of a scheme for categorization that is for Wikipedia maintenance. How are these musician categories different from other eponymous categories? ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯00:21, 16 October 2018 (UTC)reply
@
Koavf: They are parentless if you are a non-editor, who can't see hidden categories. For examples of eponymous categories that actually do have content parent categories, see:
Categories using the name of a person hold articles directly related to that person. Remember this when placing the article in larger categories. If the person is a member of a category, put the article about the person in the larger category. If articles directly related to the person are also members of the larger category, put the category with the person's name in the larger category. This often results in the article and category being categorized differently. For an example of this see
George W. Bush and
Category:George W. Bush.
@
Mr. Guye: Which categories should eponymous categories be in and under what circumstances? We clearly have some disagreement here and it relates to a lot more than just this category. ―
Justin (koavf)❤
T☮
C☺
M☯01:13, 16 October 2018 (UTC)reply
As I have complained before, the category system is trying to do two jobs and falling between the stools. Membership can mean either "is a" or "is somehow related to". Whilst
Black Francis is an American alternative rock musician,
Category:Black Francis isn't and nor are many of its members, so it can only qualify using the "is somehow related to" criterion. I would add such categories only to tree(s) of "categories of categories", i.e. leave it only in
Category:Wikipedia categories named after American musicians and any "Wikipedia categories that ..." categories that it belongs in. This avoids false conclusions such as "
Headache (song) is a musician" which can be reached by traversing the category tree and incorrectly assuming "is a" relationships.
Certes (
talk)
11:13, 16 October 2018 (UTC)reply
I think a wholesale switch would be too difficult but the ability to identify more clearly which is which would help readers, especially when using tools such as
PetScan.
Certes (
talk)
18:02, 16 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Certes, I see no guideline or policy that supports your claim that category membership can mean "is somehow related to", and a couple of guidelines that say it does not mean this, including
WP:NONDEF which says that such categorization should be avoided. Upon what are you basing your claim?
Mathglot (
talk)
09:15, 18 October 2018 (UTC)reply
I agree that no guideline says this should happen. I base my claim on what articles actually do appear in categories. For example,
Category:William Shakespeare contains
an asteroid,
an insult and
a lawsuit. Such vaguely associated members can be useful and only become a problem if we classify that category within a parent category which should be reserved for articles. The Shakespeare category
used to be in inappropriate parents such as
Category:16th-century English writers, at which point a category traversal searching for writers would come up with asteroids, insults, etc.
Certes (
talk)
09:43, 18 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Well,
other stuff happens, and it should be based on policy and guidelines, don't you agree? If you think categories like that are useful then you should attempt to gain
consensus for a change of policy at
WT:CAT. (Once upon a time, I agreed with you, until I came around to the prevailing point of view.) But as long as this is the policy, we should not knowingly go against it, just because we think it is "useful" as the community has decided otherwise. As far as your examples, eponymous categories for people generally should not be created although Shakespeare may well be an exception; this is governed by
WP:OCEPON. As two of the three articles don't qualify imho per
WP:CATDEF, I've removed them from the category. For the other one (Prick) I've changed the category to
Category:Shakespearean phrases, which does satisfy CATDEF. We'll see if that sticks. Three down, nine hundred thousand to go...
Mathglot (
talk)
10:32, 18 October 2018 (UTC)reply
Thank you for tidying up. I agree that we should be following the guidelines but, as you imply, fixing all cases would be an ambitious task. The most practical solution may be to keep eponymous categories out of inappropriate parents.
Certes (
talk)
11:04, 18 October 2018 (UTC)reply