This category is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This category is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a
WikiProject dedicated to coverage of
Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
project page, or contribute to the
project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
I'm not sure, like the Russian Soviet Republic there were other state formations that were at different times included or not included under the Russian State. Until 1918 this was the Russian Republic and it does not really make sense to me to separate them. For World War I the categories are left as Russian because it does not make sense to separate Russian Empire and Russian Republic. The same can be said for the various separatist/pro-independence states during the civil war. We also have to be careful not to overcategorize.
Mellk (
talk)
15:49, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I agree that it will be complicated to do, more complicated than with the RSFSR. But it would also be strange to categorise these Civil War battles as involving "Russia", which would imply the Russian Federation, which wouldn't emerge until 1991. You know what? I'll try to make a list of battles that would involve the
Russian State (1918–1920) as such, and see if that would be enough for a category. I'll make separate lists of battles involving White forces which were non-Russian State forces. That should give us some insight into how viable this would be, or if it would create an overcategorised mess.
NLeeuw (
talk)
15:57, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Personally I would not create such categories and not categorize such pages.
Category:Battles of the Russian Civil War by country for example does not make sense IMO since we have a Soviet Russia subcategory but the other countries do not distinguish between different factions and state formations. For Finland example there were Finnish Reds versus Finnish Whites who each proclaimed their own states. Same goes for the wars by country categories.
Finnish Civil War includes
Category:Wars involving Finland? I don't think that would make sense? I would rather just include such pages under
Category:Battles of the Russian Civil War or any other subcat of this (without trying to throw countries in the mix). Fundamentally for Russia it is just Bolsheviks and allies against Whites and allies.
Mellk (
talk)
16:16, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Also, Soviet Russia is not the name of a country. The Bolsheviks overthrew the provisional government of the Russian Republic but did not change this name, so there was no new state here, only a new government. The name Russian Soviet Republic was later adopted in early 1918.
Mellk (
talk)
15:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes, rather than trying to do former countries I think it would make more sense to include armies instead and have this as a subcat as I mentioned in my last comment.
Mellk (
talk)
16:21, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I agree. It was the various military formations and units who were doing the fighting, not so much the "Russian State", certainly not for the entire period of the Civil War. But I'm not sure whether every unit deserves its own category. E.g. it's a good point that "Finland" was for a time divided the
Finnish Civil War (27 January 1918–15 May 1918), so which side really represents "Finland"? The
Red Guards (Finland) were involved in at least 4 wars:
Russian Revolution of 1905,
Finnish Civil War,
Estonian War of Independence, and
Heimosodat (Kinship Wars). Maybe not enough for a "wars involving" category, but probably enough for a "battles involving" category.
NLeeuw (
talk)
16:30, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Good idea. Not to mention that these states were only partially recognized or unrecognized and sometimes were in union/existed as an autonomy within others at different times. There are just far too many short-lived states.
Mellk (
talk)
16:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
OK, sounds good to me. Of course, we can also add other parent categories if they are not already included in the Russian Civil War category for other new categories.
Mellk (
talk)
16:59, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Looks like a good approach. I think
Category:Battles of the Russian Civil War by country would be fine to include Germany etc. (we probably do not need to distinguish German Empire and Weimar Republic etc) but it does not really work for Finland, Ukraine etc. We should continue with belligerent parties/formations in those cases if there is enough to populate them. Thanks.
Mellk (
talk)
17:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Alright, I've gotten a lot further. The AFSR cat now has 26 items, and probably more on the way. I've included operations of the
Don Army in it as well. But some White Army formations were certainly not part of it, but separate. These include:
The
Russian Army (1919) article seems to try to have an overarching scope for all White formations, but it is largely
WP:UNSOURCED and seems
WP:OR. Nominally, Kolchak may have been in control, but in practice, these formations seem to have operated autonomously, in separate fronts of the war, with their own leaders and ideological tendencies.
I've temporarily put all ambiguous articles in
Category:White movement for now, to await further diffusion. I see that ruwiki has a
ru:Категория:Сражения Белого движения (Category:Battles of the White Movement), which is convenient, but I also think it is a bit too arbitrary and OR. The White movement was not a unified whole, but a catch-all of anti-Bolshevik anti-separatist groupings, sometimes infighting. We would be wise to only categorise by identifiable military formations instead of making things up.
I've also added a lot more to
Category:Battles involving Soviet Russia (1917–1922). There seem to be very few battles in which a Ukrainian soviet republic is involved independently of the RSFSR; it usually works as a mere satellite. By contrast, the West Ukrainian People's Republic (WUPR) and Ukrainian People's Republic (UPR) seem to fight completely separate wars, one against Poland and Austria, the other mostly against the Bolsheviks and Whites. I've got just under 10 battles for the WUPR so far, so that cat will have to wait. I can't just put them under
Category:Battles involving the Ukrainian People's Republic, that would be ahistorical.
Yes, we probably shouldn't lump all of them under the White movement category. We can include the White movement category as a parent category instead if applicable. In regards to
Category:Battles of World War I involving Russia, I do not think there is enough to populate a new category for Russian Republic. The
Kerensky offensive is definitely notable but, technically speaking, this would still fall under the Russian Empire as the status of the monarchy was not resolved yet until later in the year when the Russian Republic was proclaimed. Unfortunately it looks like there is a mistake in some of those articles conflating the provisional government with the republic.
Mellk (
talk)
05:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Mellk I've done a lot of information gathering below, which hopefully helps clear a lot of things up. I'm afraid we will barely be able to fill another category with at least 10 items involving a specific White provisional government or military formation or unit. The loyalty and hierarchy of and between various groups and people and organisations was a huge mess. E.g. we could claim the Bermontians were nominally loyal to Kolchak, but in practice they fought for the German Empire, which Kolchak still wanted to fight against.
The provisional government is just the interim government, not the state. It overlaps with both Russian Empire and Russian Republic, so this does not make sense to me. For a general White Army formations category, I think it depends on sources. If they can be considered as such by RS (without changing allegiances) then we can include them there. Those that can not be safely considered as such, then we should not put them there. But I think for most of the formations, whether they belonged to the Whites or Reds is defining.
Mellk (
talk)
11:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Agreed. I'll see if I can find RS for the formations involved that call them "White Army/Armies". It's a bit of a catch-all term, but sometimes it may have to do. E.g.
Capture of Kiev by the White Army is a bit ambiguous and generalised. Strictly speaking, it was the AFSR, but replacing "the White Army" by the Armed Forces of South Russia will make for a very long title, and just South Russia will probably raise lots of questions for readers. But by my knowledge, no other White Army formation ever captured Kiev, so the risk of confusion is minimal.
NLeeuw (
talk)
14:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes, I think that works. I don't have a strong opinion on whether to limit this to pre-1919. I guess it depends on if any articles continue to mention Volunteer Army separately but it looks like it they just mention South Russia/Russian State overall e.g.
Advance on Moscow (1919) and
Orel–Kursk operation. Also I appreciate the breakdown below, thanks.
Mellk (
talk)
19:58, 6 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Alright Done. Not sure if I'm entirely happy with it; there is a lot of overlap with AFSR as expected, but also the
"What links here" tool really helped finding more battles. I'm done for the day, perhaps I'll continue tomorrow.
NLeeuw (
talk)
20:53, 6 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Battles involving White Army formations and polities
This category is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a
list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the
full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles
This category is within the scope of WikiProject Russia, a
WikiProject dedicated to coverage of
Russia on Wikipedia. To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the
project page, or contribute to the
project discussion.RussiaWikipedia:WikiProject RussiaTemplate:WikiProject RussiaRussia articles
I'm not sure, like the Russian Soviet Republic there were other state formations that were at different times included or not included under the Russian State. Until 1918 this was the Russian Republic and it does not really make sense to me to separate them. For World War I the categories are left as Russian because it does not make sense to separate Russian Empire and Russian Republic. The same can be said for the various separatist/pro-independence states during the civil war. We also have to be careful not to overcategorize.
Mellk (
talk)
15:49, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I agree that it will be complicated to do, more complicated than with the RSFSR. But it would also be strange to categorise these Civil War battles as involving "Russia", which would imply the Russian Federation, which wouldn't emerge until 1991. You know what? I'll try to make a list of battles that would involve the
Russian State (1918–1920) as such, and see if that would be enough for a category. I'll make separate lists of battles involving White forces which were non-Russian State forces. That should give us some insight into how viable this would be, or if it would create an overcategorised mess.
NLeeuw (
talk)
15:57, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Personally I would not create such categories and not categorize such pages.
Category:Battles of the Russian Civil War by country for example does not make sense IMO since we have a Soviet Russia subcategory but the other countries do not distinguish between different factions and state formations. For Finland example there were Finnish Reds versus Finnish Whites who each proclaimed their own states. Same goes for the wars by country categories.
Finnish Civil War includes
Category:Wars involving Finland? I don't think that would make sense? I would rather just include such pages under
Category:Battles of the Russian Civil War or any other subcat of this (without trying to throw countries in the mix). Fundamentally for Russia it is just Bolsheviks and allies against Whites and allies.
Mellk (
talk)
16:16, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Also, Soviet Russia is not the name of a country. The Bolsheviks overthrew the provisional government of the Russian Republic but did not change this name, so there was no new state here, only a new government. The name Russian Soviet Republic was later adopted in early 1918.
Mellk (
talk)
15:58, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes, rather than trying to do former countries I think it would make more sense to include armies instead and have this as a subcat as I mentioned in my last comment.
Mellk (
talk)
16:21, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
I agree. It was the various military formations and units who were doing the fighting, not so much the "Russian State", certainly not for the entire period of the Civil War. But I'm not sure whether every unit deserves its own category. E.g. it's a good point that "Finland" was for a time divided the
Finnish Civil War (27 January 1918–15 May 1918), so which side really represents "Finland"? The
Red Guards (Finland) were involved in at least 4 wars:
Russian Revolution of 1905,
Finnish Civil War,
Estonian War of Independence, and
Heimosodat (Kinship Wars). Maybe not enough for a "wars involving" category, but probably enough for a "battles involving" category.
NLeeuw (
talk)
16:30, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Good idea. Not to mention that these states were only partially recognized or unrecognized and sometimes were in union/existed as an autonomy within others at different times. There are just far too many short-lived states.
Mellk (
talk)
16:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
OK, sounds good to me. Of course, we can also add other parent categories if they are not already included in the Russian Civil War category for other new categories.
Mellk (
talk)
16:59, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Looks like a good approach. I think
Category:Battles of the Russian Civil War by country would be fine to include Germany etc. (we probably do not need to distinguish German Empire and Weimar Republic etc) but it does not really work for Finland, Ukraine etc. We should continue with belligerent parties/formations in those cases if there is enough to populate them. Thanks.
Mellk (
talk)
17:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Alright, I've gotten a lot further. The AFSR cat now has 26 items, and probably more on the way. I've included operations of the
Don Army in it as well. But some White Army formations were certainly not part of it, but separate. These include:
The
Russian Army (1919) article seems to try to have an overarching scope for all White formations, but it is largely
WP:UNSOURCED and seems
WP:OR. Nominally, Kolchak may have been in control, but in practice, these formations seem to have operated autonomously, in separate fronts of the war, with their own leaders and ideological tendencies.
I've temporarily put all ambiguous articles in
Category:White movement for now, to await further diffusion. I see that ruwiki has a
ru:Категория:Сражения Белого движения (Category:Battles of the White Movement), which is convenient, but I also think it is a bit too arbitrary and OR. The White movement was not a unified whole, but a catch-all of anti-Bolshevik anti-separatist groupings, sometimes infighting. We would be wise to only categorise by identifiable military formations instead of making things up.
I've also added a lot more to
Category:Battles involving Soviet Russia (1917–1922). There seem to be very few battles in which a Ukrainian soviet republic is involved independently of the RSFSR; it usually works as a mere satellite. By contrast, the West Ukrainian People's Republic (WUPR) and Ukrainian People's Republic (UPR) seem to fight completely separate wars, one against Poland and Austria, the other mostly against the Bolsheviks and Whites. I've got just under 10 battles for the WUPR so far, so that cat will have to wait. I can't just put them under
Category:Battles involving the Ukrainian People's Republic, that would be ahistorical.
Yes, we probably shouldn't lump all of them under the White movement category. We can include the White movement category as a parent category instead if applicable. In regards to
Category:Battles of World War I involving Russia, I do not think there is enough to populate a new category for Russian Republic. The
Kerensky offensive is definitely notable but, technically speaking, this would still fall under the Russian Empire as the status of the monarchy was not resolved yet until later in the year when the Russian Republic was proclaimed. Unfortunately it looks like there is a mistake in some of those articles conflating the provisional government with the republic.
Mellk (
talk)
05:12, 5 May 2024 (UTC)reply
@
Mellk I've done a lot of information gathering below, which hopefully helps clear a lot of things up. I'm afraid we will barely be able to fill another category with at least 10 items involving a specific White provisional government or military formation or unit. The loyalty and hierarchy of and between various groups and people and organisations was a huge mess. E.g. we could claim the Bermontians were nominally loyal to Kolchak, but in practice they fought for the German Empire, which Kolchak still wanted to fight against.
The provisional government is just the interim government, not the state. It overlaps with both Russian Empire and Russian Republic, so this does not make sense to me. For a general White Army formations category, I think it depends on sources. If they can be considered as such by RS (without changing allegiances) then we can include them there. Those that can not be safely considered as such, then we should not put them there. But I think for most of the formations, whether they belonged to the Whites or Reds is defining.
Mellk (
talk)
11:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Agreed. I'll see if I can find RS for the formations involved that call them "White Army/Armies". It's a bit of a catch-all term, but sometimes it may have to do. E.g.
Capture of Kiev by the White Army is a bit ambiguous and generalised. Strictly speaking, it was the AFSR, but replacing "the White Army" by the Armed Forces of South Russia will make for a very long title, and just South Russia will probably raise lots of questions for readers. But by my knowledge, no other White Army formation ever captured Kiev, so the risk of confusion is minimal.
NLeeuw (
talk)
14:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Yes, I think that works. I don't have a strong opinion on whether to limit this to pre-1919. I guess it depends on if any articles continue to mention Volunteer Army separately but it looks like it they just mention South Russia/Russian State overall e.g.
Advance on Moscow (1919) and
Orel–Kursk operation. Also I appreciate the breakdown below, thanks.
Mellk (
talk)
19:58, 6 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Alright Done. Not sure if I'm entirely happy with it; there is a lot of overlap with AFSR as expected, but also the
"What links here" tool really helped finding more battles. I'm done for the day, perhaps I'll continue tomorrow.
NLeeuw (
talk)
20:53, 6 May 2024 (UTC)reply
Battles involving White Army formations and polities