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I think we should start referring to peer review articles which clearly won't make it to FA this round (i.e. numerous objections). People are rather reluctant to "vote" to refer (maybe because it sounds less harsh or critical than "object"?), so this would prevent the main FAC page from being clogged up. Thoughts? Johnleemk | Talk 17:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
A major consideration has been missed in the effrots to purge FAC of submissions that on the surface do not yet appear to be realistic candidates. Peer Review is not the appropriate place for all types of requests. As stated in the instructions for PR, requests for Pages needing attention, Requests for expansion, content disputes, or Cleanup should be sent to the locations set up for those functions. Due to the differing natures of PR and FAC, a discussion moved directly from FAC without appropriate context looks very much like a content dispute.
While I understand the desire to remove FAC submissions that don't have a snowball's chance, dumping these submissions on Peer Review without appropriate additions/changes does not seem the best way to handle the problem. Instead FAC should work towards concensus on an archiving policy that meets current needs. -- Allen3 talk 15:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with people submitting their failed or failing FAC to peer review if they are committed to improving the article. After all improving articles is what peer review is for. But it is poor form to simply quote the FAC nomination verbatim - a mere link to the FAC nomination would be much less distracting and serve the same purpose. Equally someone else moving the nomination to peer review serves little purpose unless the person moving the article is committed to improving the article themselves. Firstly because the original submitter may not be aware of where their nomination has been moved to. And secondly because we have no evidence that the submitter would follow through with peer review's recommendations. Some people decide to have-a-shot at a FAC but are not really committed to improving the article, it is wrong of those working with FACs to simply start offloading such people on the peer review page (which is what I was referring to when I talked about dumping). Peer review's resources are limited and are much better focused towards those articles where it can make a difference (because there is an active contributor willing to work on improvements).
Peer reviewing an article is an intensive process, I would argue more-so than the FAC process. If potential submitters are genuinely interested in getting feedback on their article and are committed to improving the article they are encouraged to submit an article. But there should be no shifting of content to peer review unless the person doing the shifting is committed to improvement. Somehow, I don't believe Johnleemk was committed to improving the ABBA article - certainly he hasn't made any of the last 500 edits to the article.
Cedars 00:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Peer review is too cluttered. I propose that we split it into two parts. One exclusively for articles that will be put up on FAC after a set period of time (this space should be serious: refs should be added and it should adhere to WP:WIAFA); and another for general comments and suggestions. =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the mechanisms of PR are OK - the problem is that there aren't enough people (or sufficient capable people) working there. How else can one explain the large number of trivial editing problems that are found in FAC even AFTER an article has been PR'ed? If things worked as they should, PR would have removed all of the little issues with articles - and FAC could address the big-picture matters such as "Does the article cover the material? Is it encyclopedic?" - and would essentially just be an up/down vote. If that system was actually working, then PR would be an almost essential thing for an article heading for FAC. The root problem is that it isn't working. Far too many trivial problems are being found in articles that have 'passed PR through no comments after 2 weeks. SteveBaker 14:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
If the failing article is a good article, then I suggest it should be refered to Wikipedia:Good Article Collaboration of the week. This is a new colaboration project, to give good articles that final polish and flaw correction to turn them into featured articles. This should also plug the gap between articles that went through Peer Review, but failed a FAC. (There have been quite a lot of articles getting stuck in this gap) -- Barberio 22:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Isn't the last archive a little quick? I understand the discussions were long, but not even letting the current month's worth of topics stand seems a little hasty? -- Tsavage 16:50, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
If I may make a recommendation (in fact, I think I will), can we add hidden text at the top of the FAC page to remind editors, before adding, that it meets basic FAC requirements? Currently, the hidden text just says, "Add new nominations at the top of the list immediately below." However, it we added one or two more lines which said something along the lines of, "Before adding your nomination, please ensure that the article has references, incline citations, and has been given a proper copyedit for grammar and point of view. Also, you might wish to consider Peer Review as an option before listing an article below".
A lot of the nominations are by fans of a particular rock group, author, etc., and not by prior contributors to an article. As well, although the rules of what should be in a FAC is at the top of the article, I don't believe many nominators read this. We receive a lot of nominations which say "I believe this meets all featured article guidelines" and then don't have a single reference. Perhaps they'd be more likely to read this hidden text as they get ready to nominate their article, and then they could reconsider the nomination or perhaps move it to Peer Review first.
Just a long, wordy suggestion. -- Ataricodfish 20:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Crossposted to
User talk:Eternal Equinox
I'm banning
User:Eternal Equinox from
WP:FAC for three weeks from today for bad behavior and bullying of voters on
the "We Belong Together" discussion. EE, "banned" means that you mustn't nominate pages nor take part in discussions of pages you have contributed to. If you do, you can be blocked by any admin, first for 24 hours and then progressively for longer. But I hope you won't. Please instead learn something from this about the culture the community wants on FAC. Don't, when you return, try again to force articles through FAC by wearing down the opposition. You'll be welcome back if you resolve to be courteous to Oppose voters, and above all, if you change your mindset to trying to fix, and learn from, objections, rather than trying to argue them into the ground.
Remember that you'll be free to work on improving articles during those three weeks. If you wish, you may also vote support or oppose on other FACs, that you have not edited, but please make sure you don't abuse this concession in any way. If you use it to post disruptively or in bad faith on FAC, you'll be blocked. Oh, and if you try to get round any of this by using sockpuppets, you'll be in real trouble. Bishonen | ノート 21:59, 20 March 2006 (UTC).
How on earth can Bish just decide this herself? I don't agree with it. If EE would like to nominate any other articles for FAC, or express anything about a nom (replying to a vote, for instance, or notifying voters of some change in the article), I would be happy to act as a proxy for that if he or she would like. Everyking 14:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Everyking, I now regret restoring your comment that Bunchofgrapes had very properly removed as being a violation of Everyking 3, since you immediately started to encroach further on the strength on it. When will I ever learn, eh? You must have missed where I said "I'm not suggesting it as precedent". By repeatedly attacking my actions on this page you're repeatedly violating the arbcom remedy that BofG quotes. As for you, EE, no, I'm not going to be sucked into the black hole of your ruleslawyering. The mistake Opposers on FAC have been making is that they've been spending the best years of their lives trying to deal with just the kind of bad-faith questions that your post above exemplifies, but that's not going to happen with me. I'm sorry you wouldn't notice the FAC culture if it jumped up and bit you on the ass—that you understand the notion of a culture so little that you ask to be directed to a policy/guideline page for it! I'm sorry I referred to you as female, it was unintentional; I do believe you're male. For my part, I resent having the garbled "quote" "disrupt the FAC process by tearing down the opposition for the FAC to pass through" put into my mouth; that's your English, not mine. My gender gets mistaken all the time and I don't give a piss. Bishonen | ノート 22:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC).
Comment My, my. Here and elsewhere in the roving "reprimands" department, I sense a lot of self-righteousness and even relish in punishing people, which, whether they "deserve" it or not, makes me leary of the punishers as well. As the recipient of a good portion of "wearing down" from EE on "We Belong...", I'm not so much concerned with that approach, but with the management of such extended reviews. I've frequently suggested simply keeping the nom periods down. If the FAC Director can decide in favor of Bulbasaur, then the Director can also be bold enough to decide that objections aren't being addressed and "wearing down" is occurring, and close a FAC after a couple of weeks. Instead, "we" (the "community"?) turn on an individual and act as if that user is the entire problem. I really have no issue with the wearing down per se: vigorous, unconstrained debate is good, as long as the process it occurs in can manage it. Bcrowell had cause to be upset: in that instance, "rules" ( WP:Vandalism) were being maybe bent to remove his follow-ups, perhaps EE should have asked for an IP check to see if it really was Bcrowell, or a wiser observer who has that power (admins?) could've initiated a check. But silencing people for at best borderline "bad behavior" in a process of rendering judgement (aka FAC) seems like not a good way to keep things "fair" and "objective" and all sides represented... -- Tsavage 00:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Tsavage, if you have the time to, could you please resubmit your objections on Talk:We Belong Together? If this is a waste of time for you, then of course you don't need to comply as it is only a request. I'm going to attempt to compromise what you believe does not make the article featured status-worthy. Thanks! I've also posted this on your talk page. — Eternal Equinox | talk 00:35, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Would anyone like to answer my questions? One does not get banned from a nightclub and then the reasons behind the banning remain unclear. One does not get arrested for "no reason". Therefore, this ban and Bishonen's consistent avoiding of my questions makes no sense whatsoever. I would like answers or I'm afraid I'll have to look elsewhere. — Eternal Equinox | talk 13:37, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Could you please move this discussion to an RFC page or your respective talk pages. Its getting more personal and less to do with the FAC page. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
After some off-site discussion between me and User:Eternal Equinox, we have come to a private agreement whereby he's now unbanned. As far as I'm concerned, he's free to use WP:FAC like anybody else, and is welcome back. Bishonen | ノート 22:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC).
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
← ( Archive 17) |
![]() |
( Archive 15) → |
I think we should start referring to peer review articles which clearly won't make it to FA this round (i.e. numerous objections). People are rather reluctant to "vote" to refer (maybe because it sounds less harsh or critical than "object"?), so this would prevent the main FAC page from being clogged up. Thoughts? Johnleemk | Talk 17:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
A major consideration has been missed in the effrots to purge FAC of submissions that on the surface do not yet appear to be realistic candidates. Peer Review is not the appropriate place for all types of requests. As stated in the instructions for PR, requests for Pages needing attention, Requests for expansion, content disputes, or Cleanup should be sent to the locations set up for those functions. Due to the differing natures of PR and FAC, a discussion moved directly from FAC without appropriate context looks very much like a content dispute.
While I understand the desire to remove FAC submissions that don't have a snowball's chance, dumping these submissions on Peer Review without appropriate additions/changes does not seem the best way to handle the problem. Instead FAC should work towards concensus on an archiving policy that meets current needs. -- Allen3 talk 15:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with people submitting their failed or failing FAC to peer review if they are committed to improving the article. After all improving articles is what peer review is for. But it is poor form to simply quote the FAC nomination verbatim - a mere link to the FAC nomination would be much less distracting and serve the same purpose. Equally someone else moving the nomination to peer review serves little purpose unless the person moving the article is committed to improving the article themselves. Firstly because the original submitter may not be aware of where their nomination has been moved to. And secondly because we have no evidence that the submitter would follow through with peer review's recommendations. Some people decide to have-a-shot at a FAC but are not really committed to improving the article, it is wrong of those working with FACs to simply start offloading such people on the peer review page (which is what I was referring to when I talked about dumping). Peer review's resources are limited and are much better focused towards those articles where it can make a difference (because there is an active contributor willing to work on improvements).
Peer reviewing an article is an intensive process, I would argue more-so than the FAC process. If potential submitters are genuinely interested in getting feedback on their article and are committed to improving the article they are encouraged to submit an article. But there should be no shifting of content to peer review unless the person doing the shifting is committed to improvement. Somehow, I don't believe Johnleemk was committed to improving the ABBA article - certainly he hasn't made any of the last 500 edits to the article.
Cedars 00:31, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Peer review is too cluttered. I propose that we split it into two parts. One exclusively for articles that will be put up on FAC after a set period of time (this space should be serious: refs should be added and it should adhere to WP:WIAFA); and another for general comments and suggestions. =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:26, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the mechanisms of PR are OK - the problem is that there aren't enough people (or sufficient capable people) working there. How else can one explain the large number of trivial editing problems that are found in FAC even AFTER an article has been PR'ed? If things worked as they should, PR would have removed all of the little issues with articles - and FAC could address the big-picture matters such as "Does the article cover the material? Is it encyclopedic?" - and would essentially just be an up/down vote. If that system was actually working, then PR would be an almost essential thing for an article heading for FAC. The root problem is that it isn't working. Far too many trivial problems are being found in articles that have 'passed PR through no comments after 2 weeks. SteveBaker 14:13, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
If the failing article is a good article, then I suggest it should be refered to Wikipedia:Good Article Collaboration of the week. This is a new colaboration project, to give good articles that final polish and flaw correction to turn them into featured articles. This should also plug the gap between articles that went through Peer Review, but failed a FAC. (There have been quite a lot of articles getting stuck in this gap) -- Barberio 22:41, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Isn't the last archive a little quick? I understand the discussions were long, but not even letting the current month's worth of topics stand seems a little hasty? -- Tsavage 16:50, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
If I may make a recommendation (in fact, I think I will), can we add hidden text at the top of the FAC page to remind editors, before adding, that it meets basic FAC requirements? Currently, the hidden text just says, "Add new nominations at the top of the list immediately below." However, it we added one or two more lines which said something along the lines of, "Before adding your nomination, please ensure that the article has references, incline citations, and has been given a proper copyedit for grammar and point of view. Also, you might wish to consider Peer Review as an option before listing an article below".
A lot of the nominations are by fans of a particular rock group, author, etc., and not by prior contributors to an article. As well, although the rules of what should be in a FAC is at the top of the article, I don't believe many nominators read this. We receive a lot of nominations which say "I believe this meets all featured article guidelines" and then don't have a single reference. Perhaps they'd be more likely to read this hidden text as they get ready to nominate their article, and then they could reconsider the nomination or perhaps move it to Peer Review first.
Just a long, wordy suggestion. -- Ataricodfish 20:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Crossposted to
User talk:Eternal Equinox
I'm banning
User:Eternal Equinox from
WP:FAC for three weeks from today for bad behavior and bullying of voters on
the "We Belong Together" discussion. EE, "banned" means that you mustn't nominate pages nor take part in discussions of pages you have contributed to. If you do, you can be blocked by any admin, first for 24 hours and then progressively for longer. But I hope you won't. Please instead learn something from this about the culture the community wants on FAC. Don't, when you return, try again to force articles through FAC by wearing down the opposition. You'll be welcome back if you resolve to be courteous to Oppose voters, and above all, if you change your mindset to trying to fix, and learn from, objections, rather than trying to argue them into the ground.
Remember that you'll be free to work on improving articles during those three weeks. If you wish, you may also vote support or oppose on other FACs, that you have not edited, but please make sure you don't abuse this concession in any way. If you use it to post disruptively or in bad faith on FAC, you'll be blocked. Oh, and if you try to get round any of this by using sockpuppets, you'll be in real trouble. Bishonen | ノート 21:59, 20 March 2006 (UTC).
How on earth can Bish just decide this herself? I don't agree with it. If EE would like to nominate any other articles for FAC, or express anything about a nom (replying to a vote, for instance, or notifying voters of some change in the article), I would be happy to act as a proxy for that if he or she would like. Everyking 14:19, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Everyking, I now regret restoring your comment that Bunchofgrapes had very properly removed as being a violation of Everyking 3, since you immediately started to encroach further on the strength on it. When will I ever learn, eh? You must have missed where I said "I'm not suggesting it as precedent". By repeatedly attacking my actions on this page you're repeatedly violating the arbcom remedy that BofG quotes. As for you, EE, no, I'm not going to be sucked into the black hole of your ruleslawyering. The mistake Opposers on FAC have been making is that they've been spending the best years of their lives trying to deal with just the kind of bad-faith questions that your post above exemplifies, but that's not going to happen with me. I'm sorry you wouldn't notice the FAC culture if it jumped up and bit you on the ass—that you understand the notion of a culture so little that you ask to be directed to a policy/guideline page for it! I'm sorry I referred to you as female, it was unintentional; I do believe you're male. For my part, I resent having the garbled "quote" "disrupt the FAC process by tearing down the opposition for the FAC to pass through" put into my mouth; that's your English, not mine. My gender gets mistaken all the time and I don't give a piss. Bishonen | ノート 22:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC).
Comment My, my. Here and elsewhere in the roving "reprimands" department, I sense a lot of self-righteousness and even relish in punishing people, which, whether they "deserve" it or not, makes me leary of the punishers as well. As the recipient of a good portion of "wearing down" from EE on "We Belong...", I'm not so much concerned with that approach, but with the management of such extended reviews. I've frequently suggested simply keeping the nom periods down. If the FAC Director can decide in favor of Bulbasaur, then the Director can also be bold enough to decide that objections aren't being addressed and "wearing down" is occurring, and close a FAC after a couple of weeks. Instead, "we" (the "community"?) turn on an individual and act as if that user is the entire problem. I really have no issue with the wearing down per se: vigorous, unconstrained debate is good, as long as the process it occurs in can manage it. Bcrowell had cause to be upset: in that instance, "rules" ( WP:Vandalism) were being maybe bent to remove his follow-ups, perhaps EE should have asked for an IP check to see if it really was Bcrowell, or a wiser observer who has that power (admins?) could've initiated a check. But silencing people for at best borderline "bad behavior" in a process of rendering judgement (aka FAC) seems like not a good way to keep things "fair" and "objective" and all sides represented... -- Tsavage 00:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Tsavage, if you have the time to, could you please resubmit your objections on Talk:We Belong Together? If this is a waste of time for you, then of course you don't need to comply as it is only a request. I'm going to attempt to compromise what you believe does not make the article featured status-worthy. Thanks! I've also posted this on your talk page. — Eternal Equinox | talk 00:35, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Would anyone like to answer my questions? One does not get banned from a nightclub and then the reasons behind the banning remain unclear. One does not get arrested for "no reason". Therefore, this ban and Bishonen's consistent avoiding of my questions makes no sense whatsoever. I would like answers or I'm afraid I'll have to look elsewhere. — Eternal Equinox | talk 13:37, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
Could you please move this discussion to an RFC page or your respective talk pages. Its getting more personal and less to do with the FAC page. Regards, =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
After some off-site discussion between me and User:Eternal Equinox, we have come to a private agreement whereby he's now unbanned. As far as I'm concerned, he's free to use WP:FAC like anybody else, and is welcome back. Bishonen | ノート 22:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC).