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First human spaceflight

The dispute has by now extended to Timeline of space exploration and Timeline of the Space Race where after a short RR, me and User:TompaDompa had temporarily restored the following passage while marking it up for discussion.

First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft and thus the first complete human spaceflight by then FAI definitions.

Relevant references:

• http://www.techrepublic.com/article/geek-trivia-a-leap-of-fakes
• https://www.seeker.com/gagarins-falsified-flight-record-1765739082.html
• https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/why-yuri-gagarin-remains-first-man-space-even-though-he-did-not-land-inside-his

The side advocating the removal claimed their rationale on the grounds of WP:MINORASPECT, although there was long and implicit consensus to preserve the passage before today. Conversely, me and perhaps some others like subject matter expert User:JustinTime55 who had upheld the passage because FAI rules at 1960s required takeoff and landing inside spacecraft. In this case, distinction matters and it would violate WP:DUE and WP:NPOV and become a case of WP:POVDELETION if the fact was left out.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Timeline_of_the_Space_Race&diff=753862145&oldid=753803108

• https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Timeline_of_space_exploration&diff=787659288&oldid=787604255

• https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Timeline_of_the_Space_Race&diff=prev&oldid=787604332

Taking account of other editors' concerns about WP:MINORASPECT while mindful of Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Space_and_balance where suppression of information risk making more problems rather than resolution, I had attempted to relegate the passage into a Template:NoteTag which can be seen here. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 20:06, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Do sources on the history of space exploration and the history of the Space Race (respectively) give significant weight to the distinction of being the first astronaut to land inside the spacecraft? I took a quick look at some such sources ( [22] [23] [24] [25] and [26] [27] [28] [29] [30], respectively) and they did not, but that could of course have been a non-representative sample. However, if they do not, this is a WP:MINORASPECT that should not be included because An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject.

I'll also note that https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/why-yuri-gagarin-remains-first-man-space-even-though-he-did-not-land-inside-his (cited above) says The conclusion of the delegates was to rework the parameters of human spaceflight to recognize that the great technological accomplishment of spaceflight was the launch, orbiting and safe return of the human, not the manner in which he or she landed. Gagarin and Titov's records remained on the FAI books. and as is true with any sports organization, the FAI reserved the right to reexamine and reinterpret its rules in light of new knowledge and circumstances. Yuri Gagarin remains indisputably the first person in space and the concept that the first cosmonauts had to land inside their spacecraft is a faded artifact of the transition from aviation to spaceflight. So going by that source, the assertion that Shepard's was the first "proper" spaceflight is a WP:FRINGE view that must not be included. TompaDompa ( talk) 20:19, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Taking reliability issue aside, Russian state media agency TASS had described that the view was even held by NASA which then attempted to get FAI to not recognize Yuri Gagarin as a cosmonaut and instead be referred as a parachute jumper.

• https://tass.com/science/868892

In this respect it is not really a fringe view, but rather something that had made it to mainstream but underreported, due to the falsification and suppression of information on this aspect by the former Soviet Union. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 20:27, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

I removed "First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft and thus the first complete human spaceflight by then FAI definitions." and its associated references from both Timeline of space exploration and Timeline of the Space Race as per WP:FALSEBALANCE. This is definitely a minority / fringe view and should not be included in either timeline. The only reason this requirement was on the initial Fédération Aéronautique Internationale rules is that it was a carry-over from aviation, the FAI subsequently amended these rules that make it clear this issue was irrelevant to Yuri Gagarin's achievements, refer to this reference for the complete explanation. This issue is already explaned on the Yuri Gagarin, however it would create a WP:FALSEBALANCE to included it in an other article, particularly the "Timeline" articles. Ilenart626 ( talk)

The sidebar in the often-invoked WP:FALSEBALANCE contains a passage from BBC Trust's policy stating that This does not mean that scientists cannot be questioned or challenged, but that their contributions must be properly scrutinized. Including an opposite view may well be appropriate, but [we] must clearly communicate the degree of credibility that the view carries.

In fact, as said before the view was the direct product of 1960s FAI rules, rather than some hodge podgey theories drawn up by some tin foilers like flat Earth believers. Implications or conclusions by virtue of classical textualism had been drawn from the interpretation of the FAI rules through reliable sources like the Tech Republic and Discovery Channel's Seeker (media company), although at that time as you mentioned, FAI gave in and retroactively mark him as the first man to fly in space out of pure practicality, mostly because many other spaceflights had already occurred by the time the scandal was uncovered. If TASS is to be believed, NASA had at one point attempt to use the grounds to persuade FAI to refer Gagarin as a parachutist. Even today, the view still appears in discussions related to Yuri Gagarin.

Because of these, the information that was embodied in the passage clearly falls into the quoted BBC Trust's policy as above. However, for now within the list articles I think it would be more appropriate to make it into Template:NoteTag, with an option of revisiting this to see whether to restore to a full blown text after half a year. This is because, from an eventualist lens, the ever increasing unpopularity against Russia due to the invasion of Ukraine can plausibly cause views expressing skepticism against Russian achievements in general, such as the one being discussed here, to be re-popularised and ending up on mainstream opinion, just like WP:CCC. This is not helped by the recent fact that Russian cosmonauts had displayed separatist flags on the International Space Station. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 09:47, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

The ability to perform a soft and safe landing of the descent capsule was quite an important technological distinction at that time, as well. It's why there was a longstanding and implicit consensus to preserve the passage for more than five years until now. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 10:07, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Just think about this perspective; it is the equivalent of Charles Lindbergh deadhanding his plane to Paris while bailing out onto a ship somewhere near the Irish coast. There was even an investigation by FAI itself on whether to disqualify Gagarin before budging out of practicality. In the grand scheme of things when covering events in the era where technological achievements and feats are showcased by either side of the Atlantic, that passage goes right into something we call a MacGuffin at least. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 10:15, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia Astronautica, despite some inaccuracies since it was not really up to date, had a footnote directly in Gagarin's entry of its manned spaceflight list page mentioning the caveat that he bailed out of flight with the implication that the record would be rejected by the FAI in normal circumstances. Keep note that the almanac was endorsed by the American Astronautical Society's History Committee in terms of credibility while NASA regularly refers its readers to it. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 13:19, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

NASA website describes Gagarin's flight as the first human spaceflight. TASS is not reliable to state that NASA actually considers his flight a parachute jump.

The story about FAI rules technicality is classified by TechRepublic as 'geek trivia', which it probably is.

On the substance of the matter, neither Shephard's Mercury-Redstone 3 or most of the modern spacecraft such as Soyuz and Crew Dragon are capable of performing a controlled landing in the sense old FAI rules required: the last phase of the flight is parachuting followed by an impact. PaulT2022 ( talk) 13:15, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Except that, unlike the other examples you've brought up, Gagarin ejected himself out of the spacecraft before touchdown. As said before, this is an equivalent of Charles Lindbergh deadhanding Spirit of St. Louis to Paris while bailing out onto a ship somewhere near the Irish coast. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 13:21, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

The NASA link which you've posted here said that This material is being kept online for historical purposes. Though accurate at the time of publication, it is no longer being updated. The page may contain broken links or outdated information, and parts may not function in current web browsers. Visit NASA.gov for current information, just as a note. According to the page, textually speaking, they merely state that Gagarin was the first to orbit the Earth. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 13:32, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

From a quick Google books search, I was able to uncover the following:

• The Race: The Complete True Story of How America Beat Russia to the Moon by TIME correspondent James L. Schefter. Page unknown.

The problem was, under FAI rules, a pilot must stay with his ship from takeoff to landing. ail out and it doesn't count.

• Human Spaceflight by Joseph A. Angelo. Page 24.

Years later, when Russian officials admitted that Gagarin had ejected from the Vostok 1 spacecraft during descent and did not land in the same craft in which he started his journey, some FAI officials raised a technicality that questioned the official status of his “first-in-spaceflight” record. Founded in 1905, the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI) is the world organization responsible for setting standards and keeping records within the fields of aeronautics and astronautics. In 1961, the FAI rules required that a pilot (that is, an astronaut or cosmonaut) must land with the spacecraft to be considered as having achieved an official spaceflight worthy of entry into the FAI book of records.

It was the second source stating that it was FAI officials and not average Joes that raised the technicality of his "first in spaceflight" record. That itself says a lot. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 14:23, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Here's a document by James Oberg which has just been found. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 14:38, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

• http://www.jamesoberg.com/red_star_in_orbit_04_Gagarin_only.pdf

This uncertainty came to a head in Paris three months later, when the International Aeronautical Federation, or FAI (the acronym for the French name), convened a meeting to certify the world records being claimed for the flight. A longstanding FAI rule could have meant an embarrassing propaganda defeat: to qualify for any new world flying records, a pilot must take off and land in his aircraft or spacecraft. The rule book was quite explicit on this point.

As it turned out, the Vostok capsule was equipped with an ejection seat, which served to catapult the pilot clear of the booster in the event of a launch failure. The same system was to be used during the final descent to earth, since the three-ton spherical landing capsule did not pack a parachute large enough to ensure a gentle (or even a survivable) landing. The pilot was supposed to fire the ejection seat at about 10,000 feet and come down separately. Gagarin had almost certainly used this method.

In Paris, the FAI director-general confronted the Soviet delegate with the crucial question: “Where was the pilot on in return in relation to the space vehicle?” Perhaps sensing a plot to deny the Soviet Union its rightful recognition, the Soviet spokesman loudly protested: “Ask the Americans if the U.S.A. believes that these records claimed for Gagarin were actually made. All the people of the world have already endorsed Gagarin’s flight and have accepted it as fact.” The wrangling went on for five hours, with the FAI officials demanding documentation that Gagarin had landed inside the ship and the Soviet delegates denouncing such requirements as obstructionist and insulting.

Finally, as dinnertime approached, the FAI officials gave in and agreed to certify the Soviet version of the flight that Gagarin had been inside the capsule. Subsequently, when foreign newsmen asked for evidence that Gagarin had landed inside the ship, Soviet officials would point to the FAI certification as independent proof of their claims. But as the proverb goes, nobody has a good enough memory to be a successful liar. A year later cosmonaut Popovich was asked how he landed, and without checking he blurted out, “Like Titov and Gagarin, I landed outside the ship”; in 1964 the three-man Voskhod capsule would include a small retrorocket to cushion the final landing, and boastful Soviet space officials would point to it as “the first time that a crew could land in its ship.” Ten years later a book by chief Soviet space correspondent Evgeny Riabchikov would describe how the Vostok came down in a plowed field while Gagarin himself came down in a pasture near a deep ravine.

Still, that isn't 1971 yet, when the full details of his landing came out. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 14:38, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

The paragraph from Human Spaceflight by Joseph A. Angelo. Page 24 continues with Despite the subsequent FAI record challenge based on a technicality within the rules, Gagarin's mission and marvelous accomplishment is still almost universally recognized as the first human spaceflight.

More importantly, none of the sources you've provided state that Shepard performed the first human spaceflight. They say that based on a technicality, in the opinion of authors (but not FAI), Gagarin's flight should've been disqualified from being recognized as an official record. This is different from the statement made in this edit.

What these sources would support is a footnote stating something along the lines of: Some authors speculate that in the case if FAI were to reject Gagarin's record based on a technicality, Shepard may have been considered to perform the first spaceflight.

We don't have a way to know whether FAI would've accepted Gagarin's record if they knew about bailing out, and neither whether Shepard's landing would've been considered the record by the same rules. Its all pure speculation and should be presented with appropriate wording and weight.

I agree with the opinion of editors who stated that its UNDUE, however, inclusion of a footnote about existing speculation could be useful for readers that share IP address's opinion about expressing skepticism against Russian achievements in general. PaulT2022 ( talk) 15:05, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

That's a great start! Furthermore in page 109 of Nicholas de Monchaux's Spacesuit: Fashioning Apollo, the following passage was shown:

The particulars of this process, and the fact of Gagarin's separate landing, were not revealed until 1978.

A reference tag was marked on the sentence within the book. Since according to the sources so far, the FAI had questioned the veracity of Soviet's record for two times, specifically after Titov's flight and during the 1970s, I was wondering whether it could lead to sources that can confirm that the latter had happened. I'll see if my local bookstore has the book this weekend.

On the articles, the proposed note tag text can also be worded as,

Some sources speculated that per the interpretation of FAI definitions in 1961, Shepard, rather than Gagarin, may have been considered to complete the first human spaceflight mission. This is due to a technicality stipulating the presence of pilot in spacecraft during launch and landing. However, later on FAI eventually recognised Gagarin as the first human to fly into space due to practical reasons.

204.15.72.92 ( talk) 16:10, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

However, later on FAI eventually recognised Gagarin as the first human to fly into space due to practical reasons. - every word here is a misrepresentation:

1. FAI recognised Gagarin's flight from the beginning

2. sources don't doubt the Gagarin was the first human to fly into space; they discuss whether FAI should've recognized this as a specific type of a record

3. 'practical' reasons that made FAI consider Gagarin's flight the first flight is an entirely unfounded speculation

What this sentence probably should say instead is something like FAI later changed its rules to recognise that the manner in which pilot of a spacecraft lands is irrelevant for establishing the record as long as safe return is accomplished (paraphrasing the penultimate paragraph from here)

PaulT2022 ( talk) 17:28, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

So the text would instead be Some sources speculated that per the interpretation of FAI definitions in 1961, Shepard, rather than Gagarin, may have been considered to complete the first human spaceflight mission. This is due to a technicality stipulating the presence of pilot in spacecraft during launch and landing. However FAI later changed its rules to recognise that the manner in which pilot of a spacecraft lands is irrelevant for establishing the record as long as safe return is accomplished.

Thanks. I'll wait for comments from others about this proposed solution before putting those onto the Timeline pages while moving on to discuss other issues in Space Race, including the omission of Qian Xuesen and the GALCIT. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 18:57, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with 'however': it implies a contradiction, whereas sources say the rules were updated to reflect differences between piloting spaceships and airships.

I think 'the interpretation' is also inappropriate: clearly its not the only one as FAI interpreted them to recognise Gagarin's flight instead of Shepard's. Probably should say 'per formalistic interpretation', 'per alternative interpretation' or something similar.

Ultimately, sources see this as a WP:FRINGE viewpoint and while I see a merit for its inclusion in a footnote, it shouldn't be described as anything different from what it is; definitely not as a some sort of truth kept secret by FAI as implied by the proposed wording. PaulT2022 ( talk) 20:49, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Hence, the passage would be Some sources speculated that per formalistic interpretation of FAI definitions in 1961, Shepard, rather than Gagarin, may have been considered to complete the first human spaceflight mission. This is due to a technicality stipulating the presence of pilot in spacecraft during launch and landing. FAI later changed its rules to recognise that the manner in which pilot of a spacecraft lands is irrelevant for establishing the record as long as safe return is accomplished. They would be a note tag attached to both Gagarin's "first human spaceflight" and Shepard's "First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft" in those Timeline articles. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 22:10, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Is there a source to state that the Shepard's flight would've indeed been the one recognised instead? Not being picky, just realised his flight was suborbital, so its not automatically obvious that it would've met the criteria. PaulT2022 ( talk) 22:55, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I think WP:BLUESKY would apply here as Shepard's flight was directly after Gagarin's making the former the second man in space, which has the logical implication of Freedom 7 being the first spaceflight instead had Vostok 1 been disqualified. Temporarily taking aside all these, presently it's a known and well established fact that he landed within his spacecraft whereas Gagarin did not. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 23:32, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Not only its well established, but its been reported by New York Times in "SOVIET CLARIFIES GAGARIN'S FLIGHT" 8 May 1961 p39, two months before FAI acknowledged Gagarin's records. The implication that Shepard was therefore first to fly to space because of landing method used by the Soviets never surfaced at the time. To the best of my understanding, none of the sources linked above makes such connection either. PaulT2022 ( talk) 03:55, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Ultimately, the sources say that the idea that Gagarin did not make the first crewed spaceflight is a WP:FRINGE view. Whether this was controversial decades ago is irrelevant—it isn't now. The idea that it was the equivalent of Charles Lindbergh deadhanding his plane to Paris while bailing out onto a ship somewhere near the Irish coast is the personal opinion of an editor, which carries no weight here. It is not appropriate to include this fringe view in the articles, not even in a footnote and not even if we clearly describe it as a fringe view. Debunking it unprompted would be legitimizing it (as worthy of being explicitly debunked) to an extent that is simply not justified by the sources we have. As Ilenart626 noted, this is covered at Yuri Gagarin#Vostok 1, which currently says:

At about 7,000 metres (23,000 ft), Gagarin ejected from the descending capsule as planned and landed using a parachute. ^[1] There were concerns Gagarin's spaceflight record would not be certified by the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI), the world governing body for setting standards and keeping records in the field, which at the time required that the pilot land with the craft. ^[2] Gagarin and Soviet officials initially refused to admit that he had not landed with his spacecraft, ^[3] an omission which became apparent after Titov's flight on Vostok 2 four months later. Gagarin's spaceflight records were nonetheless certified and reaffirmed by the FAI, which revised its rules, and acknowledged that the crucial steps of the safe launch, orbit, and return of the pilot had been accomplished. Gagarin is internationally recognised as the first human in space and first to orbit the Earth. ^[4]

That is the proper place and manner to cover this information. Sources on the topic of the articles at hand—the history of space exploration and the history of the Space Race, respectively—generally do not cover this aspect from what I've seen. That makes it a WP:MINORASPECT which is not to be included because it would be giving it undue weight. The same goes for Shepard being the first astronaut to land inside the spacecraft—it's a WP:MINORASPECT which is not to be included. At best, we can place {{ FAQ}} on the talk pages (see Talk:September 11 attacks for an example of how the template can be used). If we do so, it should say something like:

Q: Didn't Alan Shepard technically make the first human spaceflight?
A: No. This idea stems from old Fédération Aéronautique Internationale rules carried over from aviation stipulating that the pilot had to land inside the vessel, while Yuri Gagarin parachuted out of Vostok 1. The FAI decided to certify Gagarin's record and amended their rules to not require landing inside the spacecraft as they judged that landing safely was the important part. Gagarin is almost universally recognized as having made the first human spaceflight, and the conception that he did not is a WP:FRINGE view.

What do you think about this, PaulT2022? TompaDompa ( talk) 03:44, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

@ TompaDompa I agree completely with WP:FRINGE / WP:MINORASPECT. Not only its minor, but the implication that if FAI were not to recognise Gagarin's records would imply that he didn't fly to space is unsourced, as far as I understand. (FAI doesn't recognise primacy in the space race or the fact of the space flight; and Gagarin's flight was orbital, far above the required altitude and likely tracked by the US tracking stations. So it would've only affected FAI recognition of the altitude/duration of an orbital flight record.)

Having said that, the problem is not it was controversial because of the bail out decades ago (it wasn't - see this contemporary NYT article from 8 May 1961 for example), but that it became controversial now, because there are people eager to debunk Russian claims and achievements assuming that they're potential lies. (For example: https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2022/03/yuri-gagarin-gets-memory-holed-by-american-space-advocacy-group https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/12/putins-schoolboy-hero-inspiring-invasion-ukraine/)

James Oberg's quote above is alleged to be from the 70s. However, he himself mentions in the PDF that he reworked his article and book, and the part quoted above seems to be plagiarised from The cosmonaut who couldn't stop smiling by Andrew Jenks, pp.148-150, published in 2012. Jenks attributes the entire story about FAI concerns to his 2007 interview with a local teacher from Saratov, who also happens to be an amateur historian interested in the space race. Jenks also references two local untraceable newspapers without naming article authors, so its conceivable that they're written by the same teacher. Seeker article appears to be a rewrite of either James or Oberg (judging by the narrative structure). The rest of the sources who mention FAI being at odds about recognising Gagarin's primacy in space don't reference where the story comes from; it is possible that they're basing it on Jenks, as no pre-2007 sources that would talk about this controversy were presented.

I think that explaining why Gagarin is named/listed as first in space would be useful for readers who come to Wikipedia after reading fringe theories. Agree that its best if it would not be phrased as debunking because of legitimisation concerns. And definitely not in the proposed wording that would imply that FAI stole space race victory from Shepard.

Perhaps a contemporaneous source can be found that would say that FAI reaffirmed the Gagarin's flight eligibility after reviewing the landing method? Linking it as a reference for anyone in doubt would be better than a custom footnote. If such source doesn't exist, then its really problematic for adding anything as the only source I was able to trace is the teacher from Saratov mentioned by Jenks, and the rest appear to copy from him. None of them really makes a clear connection that if Gagarin's records wouldn't have been recognised by FAI, primacy of his flight would be somehow invalidated. PaulT2022 ( talk) 05:28, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

James Oberg's book Red star in orbit which was published in 1981, contains the exact long passage regarding the confrontation between FAI officials and Soviet delegates at page 55. The Encyclopedia Astronautica was more explicit that Gagarin would not qualify for all the FAI spaceflight records as the 1961 sporting code mandated every flight, including spaceflight as something which must involve the presence of pilot in their craft during takeoff and landing. It was interpreted by the Tech Republic that:

Thus, he did not "legally" complete a piloted flight under the guidelines of the FAI, the international aeronautics governing body.

Moreover, according to those sources, the records of both Gagarin's and Shepard's were examined at that time, while Smithsonian noted the following:

If nationals from two different countries claim a record, it is the FAI's job to examine the submitted documentation and make a ruling as to who has accomplished the feat first.

With above, the note tag would serve as a Macguffin in those articles. Besides that, landing safely while inside the spacecraft is an impressive feat on its own, particularly given the context of that era and the Charles Lindbergh analogy. "First in space" or "First to fly into space", and "First to complete spaceflight", although similar at a glance, can carry a different meaning. It's not just something like whether Pluto is a planet; rather Gagarin was only a hair breadth from being disqualified before FAI gave in. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 08:28, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

The point you're missing is, as evident from the contemporaneous publications, as well as FAI website, it certified three records for Gagarin's flight: duration of orbital flight, greatest altitude of orbital flight and greatest mass lifted in orbit. It certified two records for Shepard's non-orbital flight, in two different categories, for a sub-orbital flight. FAI never certified the record for who was first to fly to space.

You've supplied sources that say that because FAI recognised Gagarin's records, his primacy in space is unquestionable, and that the Soviets made contradicting statements about his landing to secure FAI records regardless of its ruling. There's no question about it. However, after reading all sources carefully, I can't find anything to support the claim that were his three orbital flight records not to be recognised, Shepard would've been considered the first man in space instead. PaulT2022 ( talk) 12:29, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

What we have is a WP:FRINGE view and a WP:MINORASPECT. Everything else is beside the point. I'm removing the fringe/undue material from article space. TompaDompa ( talk) 13:44, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

First of all, @ TompaDompa: please do not close the discussion yet as it hasn't run its full course. Presently there are only five participants which would be far from fulfilling a quorum, especially when subject matter experts such as @ JustinTime55: hadn't weighed in yet. In fact, according to page history he had restored or upheld the passage in 2016 while the information had been staying up on the page ever since with longstanding WP:SILENTCONSENSUS, until now.

Prematurely closing this discussion would be akin to saying a given political candidate had won the election when there are uncounted postal votes that could result in a loss or a tie. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 17:10, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

( edit conflict) Now you're just straight-up WP:WikiLawyering, and poorly at that. I didn't close the discussion and Most conversations do not need to be closed. per WP:WHENCLOSE. Silence is the weakest form of consensus per WP:SILENTCONSENSUS and it has now been challenged—several editors here agree that this is not appropriate to include. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. per WP:ONUS. You are promoting what is per the sources a WP:FRINGE view in article space. TompaDompa ( talk) 18:02, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Moreover, it would be more precise to state that it is (or was) a significant minority view rather than a "fringe" opinion, as it was the FAI officials that raise the technicality to the Soviet delegates. This states that Views held by a significant minority should be included, but should not be given as extensive coverage as majority views. To do so would overstate the extent of controversy. Aside from those, one thing which I notice that was overlooked from this discussion so far is that there is subtle yet significant etymological differences between "first man in space", "first human spaceflight mission", and "technically completing the first human spaceflight mission". It is not helpful to move the goalpost within this context, such as conflating the three altogether. I will make a table here to explain it easier.

Question	Yuri Gagarin	Alan Shepard
First person to cross the 100km Karman line boundary and into space?	Yes.	No.
First human spaceflight mission (irrespective of outcomes or technicalities)?	Yes.	No.
Technically completing the first human spaceflight mission by 1961 FAI definitions?	No. He ejected out of his spacecraft before landing.	Yes. He was in the spacecraft all the time.

The sources simply implied Point 3 based on the formalistic interpretation of 1961 FAI rules. Moreover, aside from WP:FALSEBALANCE and WP:CHILDPROTECT (due to an unfortunate fact that a thread attempting to do p*do advocacy is just above this Outpost Tavern), there is an interesting caveat in WP:NPOV in the form of WP:NONAZIS prohibiting views that attempt to whitewash Nazi Germany, Nazism and the likes from appearing on Wikipedia, presumably broadly construed. It is more than the simplistic discontent among readers.

As time goes on, we may very well see the editing community outlawing any edits or views that promote Russocentric totalitarian beliefs like Rashism or Russkiy Mir (Russian world) in the same fashion as above. When it happens any contents within any topic that is deemed too slanted towards pro-Russian viewpoints will be up for challenge, as with concurrent to the discrediting of Russophilic ideologies, a section in WP:NORACISTS states that racists generally believes in That their culture is superior to others and editors would want to err on the safe side, particularly given the association of Gagarin mythos by Putin with his war and Russia in general, and the display of separatist flags by Russian cosmonauts within the International Space Station.

This is entirely similar to the Midas Curse. In fact as per this Vanity Fair article which is already put here, the beginning had already started. Hence, if we remove the passage in the name of fixing "false balance", more likely than not we'd be ending up reinventing the wheel and end up on the starting point once again which by all means is going to be unnecessarily disruptive to all of us. Considering that the retention of passage in full may be akin to fighting fire with fire and causing undue weight, at this time the rewritting of passage into something as anodyne as possible and subsequent relegation into a note tag may be the least bad solution out, within the situation that is like between rock and a hard place.

I digress, indeed. But the gist is circumstances may wildly change so much that it would be better not to commit the sin of omission of throwing the baby out with the water. In the meantime only First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft would remain as main text within the articles, because what's the point of having to eject from spaceships like Soyuz or Dragon every time when there is a room of improvement to eliminate this major discomfort? It's an impressive and significant technological advancement on its own, despite being a "one small step". 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 17:59, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Technically completing the first human spaceflight mission by 1961 FAI definitions? - this is unsourced, as there's no reliable source that states FAI ever recognised who made the first human spaceflight (besides the Angelo's childrens' book written by a non-expert), and its trivial to verify that FAI indeed didn't make such judgement.

I retract my previous statements about merit existing to include this speculation, which indeed could've been there because of Russocentric concerns. As it stands now, its a speculation by two editors, not supported by a known reliable source. PaulT2022 ( talk) 18:16, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

The mentioned Tech Republic source stated that Gagarin Thus, he did not “legally” complete a piloted flight under the guidelines of the FAI, the international aeronautics governing body". But at this stage, I'd be happy to rewrite the proposed notetag into a more anodyne manner. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 18:22, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

How about nixing the explanatory footnote and instead using the {{ FAQ}} template in the manner I suggested above? TompaDompa ( talk) 18:59, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

@ TompaDompa: Thanks for the creation of the FAQ pages; don't forget Timeline of space exploration and also Space age. We're still in the process on whether to go a little bit WP:IGNOREALLRULES to move the Tech Republic and/or Smithsonian citations to the respective Gagarin's sections, given that most readers don't really bother to click the link to the talk page and the wider context which I think I had repeated ad infinitum here. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 20:39, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

This is getting rather tiresome. No, we're obviously not going to WP:Ignore all rules to go out of our way to get people to read WP:FRINGE views. If people don't read the FAQ debunking a WP:FRINGE theory unless they are looking for it because most readers don't really bother to click the link to the talk page, that would in fact be a feature rather than a bug. By trying to get people to read about a WP:FRINGE view, you are promoting a WP:FALSEBALANCE—surely you must realize this? TompaDompa ( talk) 20:48, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea, for now. Besides that, it might be helpful to put the Tech Republic and Smithsonian links into the Yuri Gagarin sections of both the Timeline articles where they would just be a "further reading" directing users to outside resources that contains the view while simultaneously affirming Gagarin's "first in space" record. That would be anodyne enough to allay concerns of "pro-Russian whitewashing", while adhering to WP:DUEWEIGHT. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 19:59, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm against as these articles don't say what records FAI was involved with, effectively spreading disinformation by omission. For anyone interested, contemporaneous NYT article specifies, some digging on FAI website allows to find answer as well.

It happened just about the exact time the events in Oberg's long passage happened. Note that there was still only circumstantial evidences that Gagarin jumped. According to Stephen Walker's book Beyond: The Astonishing Story of the First Human to Leave Our Planet and Journey into Space, there were even initial newspaper reports in Saratov that Gagarin jumped, only to be destroyed by the KGB. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 20:28, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Correction: The information somehow leaked out through the Iron Curtain and picked up by some Italian newspapers mere days after Vostok 1. RadioTV Svizzera's journalist Paolo Attivissimo has a Twitter thread of it with translations. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 14:56, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Not to mention that inclusion of these links is against WP:EL guideline. PaulT2022 ( talk) 20:12, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Categorically disagree with Not to mention that inclusion of these links is against WP:EL guideline. WP:ELYES states that Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article due to copyright issues, amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks), or other reasons. The Smithsonian article in particular could be an ad hoc FAQ for readers, not unlike as proposed by Tompa. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 20:17, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree with PaulT2022 here. Don't link to sites hosting WP:FRINGE views as "further reading", obviously. TompaDompa ( talk) 20:40, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

The Smithsonian citation which in addition of being far more reliable than Tech Republic, is more anodyne than the latter. It has mentions of the controversy, but ultimately affirmed the fact that Gagarin was the first in space. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 20:44, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

No, this source doesn't have mentions of the controversy, but ultimately affirmed the fact that Gagarin was the first in space. Rather, it clarifies that there is no controversy—that the idea that Gagarin did not make the first human spaceflight is a WP:FRINGE view. We shouldn't try to inform readers about WP:FRINGE views they are not already aware of. I added the link to the FAQ, because that's the appropriate place to put it in this context. TompaDompa ( talk) 21:01, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Regarding you are promoting a WP:FALSEBALANCE—surely you must realize this?, maybe. However the WP:FRINGE invocation that's now being thrown around like a shibboleth also contains the BBC Trust policy that This does not mean that scientists cannot be questioned or challenged, but that their contributions must be properly scrutinized. Including an opposite view may well be appropriate, but [we] must clearly communicate the degree of credibility that the view carries.

The bad thing is it is going to be in the eye of the beholder. In most times editorial disputes such as this can be affected by Wikipedia:GEOBIAS too. No offense, for example in America they would feel that the edit must be present in any form to maintain NPOV, while in Russia more might think it's extraneous or unnecessary "revisionism", and all of the rest could be a tossup, including apathetic attitudes like "meh, I don't care".

For the moment, I think we can soft close this discussion and move to the next topic of the inclusion of Qian Xuesen and GALCIT into Space Race, with the possibility of a re-opening at any time in case of changed circumstances; examples being the decision of Justin or other subject matter experts to weigh in, change of authoritative spaceflight timelines info (i.e. Britannica) to include the technicality amidst the rising anti-Russian sentiment, access to sources such as records from FAI or NASA that are not initially covered here which support the inclusion of the passage, or the expansion of WP:NONAZIS to prohibit the pushin pro-Russian ideologies of all spectrums. This is not to mention the possible concerns of "minority rule" on the Timeline and the space age large-traffic articles.

Move to the next? 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 21:16, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

( edit conflict) Per the sources, the idea that Gagarin did not make the first human spaceflight is a WP:FRINGE view. " Yuri Gagarin remains indisputably the first person in space and the concept that the first cosmonauts had to land inside their spacecraft is a faded artifact of the transition from aviation to spaceflight." and " Despite the subsequent FAI record challenge based on a technicality within the rules, Gagarin's mission and marvelous accomplishment is still almost universally recognized as the first human spaceflight."—mind you that these are your sources that you brought up. Whether there was some controversy several decades ago doesn't matter—the idea that Gagarin did not make the first human spaceflight is a WP:FRINGE view now.

With regard to Shepard being the first astronaut to land inside the spacecraft, sources on the topic of the articles at hand—the history of space exploration and the history of the Space Race, respectively—generally do not cover this aspect. It's a WP:MINORASPECT which is not to be mentioned in these articles. If you disagree with that, demonstrate that this is incorrect by citing sources on the topic of the history of space exploration and the history of the Space Race which demonstrates that this is in fact something the sources consider to be a significant aspect of these topics. TompaDompa ( talk) 18:18, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

By the same logic as you had put forth, First interplanetary escape without undercarriage cutoff.[clarification needed] would be FRINGE-y as well. However obviously that would be not germane in the discussion here due to it being in different era. Besides, WP:NOTPAPER may be of relevance while Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Space and balance detoured that Articles need to be interesting to attract and keep the attention of readers.

Otherwise, I'm more than inclined to put in the mentions of Qian Xuesen and the GALCIT into Space Race, assuming that there's a go from all of you. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 18:45, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Please note that the scope of this discussion isn't really limited to Gagarin and Shepard alone; the topic include other pro-Russian POV issues such as the omission of Qian Xuesen and the GALCIT. However as recently COVID hit me and I'm still grappling with neurological issues, I may leave this all entirely to the community to run on its own after the issues regarding Gagarin and Qian Xuesen were resolved.

Fine. I rewrote the proposed tag ground up into the following:

Some sources reported that Vostok 1 did not meet the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale's requirements of establishing records due to a technicality stipulating the presence of pilot in spacecraft during launch and landing. FAI changed its rules to recognise that the manner in which pilot of a spacecraft lands is irrelevant for establishing the record as long as safe return is accomplished.

Otherwise, taking PaulT2022's suggestion, for this time I will put the Tech Republic link and some of the rest into the Timeline articles, this time as a citation on Gagarin's "first human spaceflight mission" or so, while removing the text from Alan Shepard's section which according to page history has been there for about five years. 19:10, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

204.15.72.92 ( talk) 18:15, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I kindly request not to attribute to me what I haven't said.

My opinion is the entire FAI rules argument cannot be used to speculate who could've been considered first in space unless a WP:RS presented to establish the relevance of FAI rules to Gagarin being recognised as the first human to fly in space (TechRepublic author doesn't make such judgement), at which point an informed discussion on WP:FRINGE viewpoint inclusion can be held. As of now, the proposed edit is an unsourced speculation and I'm against it per WP:VERIFIABILITY. PaulT2022 ( talk) 19:34, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I kindly request not to attribute to me what I haven't said? Sure, however as the old saying goes, you can't unring a bell. Please keep that in mind next time. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 19:53, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

The "citation" option would not really involve the (re) addition of information per se onto the two articles per se; rather it would just be a "further reading" which directs users to outside resources that contains the view while simultaneously affirming Gagarin's "first in space" record. That would be anodyne enough to allay concerns of "pro-Russian whitewashing", while adhering to WP:DUEWEIGHT. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 19:53, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Hang on! The Seeker article implied that If Gagarin and Titov both ejected before landing, the Soviet Union would lose its spot in history as the first nation to launch a man into space. But I guess it's late now. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 21:38, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

The article then goes on to say the FAI held a special meeting of delegates to reexamine Titov's records and reconsider Gagarin's. The result of the meeting was a change to the parameters that defined spaceflight rather than a change to the records. The parameters switched to focus on the payload launched; this technical achievement mattered more than how the astronaut or cosmonaut landed. That Gagarin had orbited the Earth was the real achievement, and both his and Titov's records remain in the FAI's books. and After the decision to keep Gagarin's record intact, the early Vostok landing system went from a controversial issue to a historical oddity of the transition from flight in aircraft to spaceflight in capsules. In other words, there is no controversy and there hasn't been for decades. The idea that Gagarin did not make the first human spaceflight is a WP:FRINGE view. It's time to WP:Drop the stick. TompaDompa ( talk) 21:48, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

FTFY: there is no controversy and there hasn't been for decades yet. But fine, I'll move on to the next section for now. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 21:57, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Furthermore, the Seeker article has factual inaccuracies: if two nations were going to vie for the record of first in space, the FAI should have clear rules to determine a winner. The result of the meeting was a change to the parameters that defined spaceflight rather than a change to the records. The parameters switched to focus on the payload launched; this technical achievement mattered more than how the astronaut or cosmonaut landed.

These parameters were the ones claimed by the Soviets from the beginning and certified by FAI before the Titov's flight; FAI never made a determination of who was first in space.

Given the contradictions with secondary coverage in NYT and primary documents from FAI, I don't think this Seeker article can be considered to be a WP:RS per WP:REDFLAG PaulT2022 ( talk) 21:59, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't have an NYT subscription, can you please quote the relevant passage from it? 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 22:01, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Its a very short note, says that FAI certified three orbital flight records for Gagarin (added here) and two for the sub-orbital Shepard's flight. Published on 23 Jul 1961.

I suppose FAI website should have the details about what records and when they've certified in open access. PaulT2022 ( talk) 22:22, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. Although the atmosphere was so tense because of the charged nature of the underlying issues, I feel grateful to learn about a quirk that Gagarin's record of attaining highest altitude in elliptical orbit through a one-man spacecraft remains unsurpassed. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 22:27, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

204.15.72.92 endlessly arguing with walls of green text does not change the fact that you are pushing WP:FRINGE and WP:FALSEBALANCE issues. Suggest you get a life and stop wasting editors time with your nonsense. Ilenart626 ( talk) 01:24, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Suggest you to refresh yourself with WP:CIVILITY as get a life can often be construed as appearing to ridicule another editor's comment. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 09:01, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I have reverted the text below as their is no consensus for adding this Wikipedia:Fringe theories to the talk pages of Talk:Space Age, Talk:Timeline of the Space Race

and Talk:Timeline of space exploration. Two editors is not a consensus.

view ·  Frequently asked questions Q: Didn't Alan Shepard technically make the first human spaceflight? A: No. This idea stems from old Fédération Aéronautique Internationale rules carried over from aviation stipulating that the pilot had to land inside the vessel, while Yuri Gagarin parachuted out of Vostok 1. The FAI decided to amend their rules to not require landing inside the spacecraft as they judged that landing safely was the important part. Gagarin is almost universally recognized as having made the first human spaceflight, and the conception that he did not is a WP:FRINGE view. See here for a more detailed explanation from the National Air and Space Museum.

Ilenart626 ( talk) 09:19, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Given that you had performed these unwarranted reversions despite that this NPOVN discussion favoring the use of FAQ explainer talk page headers which was added by me and @ TompaDompa: in the affected pages:

1 2 3

I'm not sure how that would be different from disruptive editing. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 09:17, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Suggest you review Wikipedia:Consensus Ilenart626 ( talk)

Sure, the WP:CONLEVEL states that Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. However, it can also be argued from the other way that this discussion has only a participation of a handful of users without inputs from actual subject matter experts and the rest of the editing community, therefore looking more or less, to paraphrase a quote from For All Mankind (TV series), an "orchestrated discussion". To illustrate more, the page views of the articles stand in the thousands. Moving from that, it's helpful to read this too. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 10:10, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Again you are introducing irrelevant information. I also note that you have reverted my edits and as per WP:STATUSQUO these should be removed until we have Wikipedia:Consensus Ilenart626 ( talk) 10:49, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Once more WP:STATUSQUO states that "During a dispute discussion, you should not revert away from the status quo ante bellum until a consensus is established. Instead of reverting, insert an appropriate tag indicating the text is under discussion. If a dispute arises regarding which version is the status quo ante bellum then be the adult in the room and don't revert. Tag instead". This means that the affected pages are restored to versions like this on an interim basis, pending the outcome of this discussion.

Don't throw stones inside glass houses, next time. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 10:53, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Hmmmm, English not your first language? The term status quo ante bellum is a Latin phrase meaning "the situation as it existed before the war". This means we go back to what the articles say before you added your fringe theories

Ilenart626 ( talk) 11:19, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

According to page histories, the text had been present there for about six years by virtue of silent consensuses, along with subject matter experts such as this. At this stage, to pretend otherwise reeks of WP:JDLI. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 11:33, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I am not terribly attached to the FAQ—it was mainly an attempt at a compromise to get the WP:FRINGE view out of article space. I don't mind the FAQ being removed. I do however very much mind 204.15.72.92 reintroducing the WP:FRINGE view to article space. You know this is a WP:FRINGE view. You agree that this is a WP:FRINGE view. There is no disagreement here about removing the WP:FRINGE view from article space—the disagreement that remains is whether the FAQ should be on the talk pages. Re-adding the WP:FRINGE view to article space at this point is purely WP:Disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. TompaDompa ( talk) 12:16, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

At this point I'm okay with the text omitted from the article space of those three, simply because the time is not right yet. However the WP:POVDELETION state that Especially contentious text can be removed to the talk page if necessary, but only as a last resort, and never just deleted, which is very likely behind the rationale of putting up the FAQ templates. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 12:28, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

( edit conflict) No, the rationale behind the FAQ is that there is an editor who promotes WP:FRINGE views who also engages in WP:BLUDGEON and WP:IDHT behaviour that makes discussing the issue extremely time-consuming and patience-trying, and the hope was that the FAQ would function as a compromise that would bring that to an end. I don't think you fully appreciate just how disruptive you are being. As Chipmunkdavis said in the section above: Deadlock is certainly one way to describe all other editors agreeing your edits were poor. Please WP:Drop the stick. TompaDompa ( talk) 12:37, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I was actually in acceptance the FAQ compromise when I restored the template after he barged in to remove it under the grounds of WP:STATUSQUO. In fact, prior to that I was going to move on to discuss GALCIT and the lunar probes passages on Space Race. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 12:44, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

For the rest, the status quo ante bellum of Timeline of the Space Race and Space Age appear to be this and this respectively. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 12:58, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

And the consensus here—which includes you—is that the material under discussion is WP:FRINGE and should not be included. Stop it with your disruptive WP:WikiLawyering, WP:I didn't hear that, and WP:Bludgeoning behaviour and instead WP:Drop the stick. TompaDompa ( talk) 13:03, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Okay. I accept my responsibility, despite presently having Chronic Covid Syndrome at the moment. However, I think that Ilenart626 should not be acting too rash either by removing the FAQ template and instead offer his comments on the discussion first.

In fact because of the charged nature of the issue I had at one point considered asking uninvolved administrator to start an WP:RFC to solicit opinions across editors who're familiar with the subject. But fine, I'll head toward the FAQ compromise as originally agreed upon then. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 13:07, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The FAQ compromise was not originally agreed upon. I proposed it, but as I said I don't mind the FAQ being removed. You are in favour of including it. Ilenart626 is opposed. I'm not entirely sure what PaulT2022 thinks. TompaDompa ( talk) 13:19, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree with him that it's probably better off at Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group, although the WikiProject looks a little bit stale, with a defunct link in its resources section that now leads to something that's probably infested with malwares. Unfortunately I'll have to wait for others as IP address editors do not have page creation or move rights. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 18:16, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Definitely agree that this edit that   204.15.72.92 reintroduced in the Space Age article is Wikipedia:Fringe theories and should be removed. I also believe the FAQ above should also be removed, but happy to wait for input from other editors Ilenart626 ( talk) 12:34, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The old FAI rule, despite being perceivably pedantic, made sense in context though. They keep aviation records. If a person was the first to attempt flying across an ocean, say the Atlantic or the Pacific and crashed upon landing, the attempt is considered as a failure, even if he/she technically went from an end to another. Context matters and that's why the "asterisk" should be here to stay, even as a FAQ template relegated into talk page. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 14:47, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The edit should be removed as unsourced due to lack of WP:RS.

Where FAI is referenced (such as proposed FAQ or wording of Yuri Gagarin#Vostok 1), the vague "Gagarin's record" must never be used, as it might refer to a logbook entry or to the Soviet claim of Gagarin's three world records filed to FAI for example. It should be clear what records the concerns voiced in the sources affect.

If an FAQ is made, it probably should be maintained under Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group rather than one of the pages.

A possible way to resolve IP addresses's concerns about confused readers not understanding why Wikipedia claims that Gagarin was first in space, is to add a reference to a neutral source that clearly establishes Gagarin's primacy as the first person to fly to space by focusing on what was achieved, such as https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/56718196 PaulT2022 ( talk) 15:38, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. That would be a much more appropriate solution. The WikiProject Television's FAQ page looks set to be a useful example. While for the moment it would look very much like a stub page since there is only one question, it can be used as part of a standard operating procedure to clarify for the readers on any discrepancies in records or so on that may arise in the future, especially with the present revival of interest in space exploration. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 16:28, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

The controversy was not mentioned in the BBC article, although BBC itself has other language reports briefly mentioning it while closing it with "the FAI approved Gagarin's spaceflight records" and "first to travel to space", not to mention the title itself. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 12:18, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

• https://www.bbc.com/turkce/haberler-dunya-56716051
• https://www.bbc.com/zhongwen/trad/science-56717342

Speaking about the controversy itself and just to explain more of the context, this would be akin to the case of Ferdinand Magellan. Despite dying in the Philippines in the middle of the circumnavigational expedition, he was widely reported in textbooks as being the first to circumnavigate the globe for many years. Now the National Geographic and History Channel had came out to ask people to think again and that someone else may deserve the true credit for being the first person to circumnavigate globe.

• https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/article/magellan-first-sail-around-world-think-again

• https://www.history.com/news/was-magellan-the-first-person-to-circumnavigate-the-globe

A more precise analogy can be found in Claims to the first powered flight. For example, it is arguable that Hiram Maxim had achieved a first powered heavier than air flight simply because during trials in 1894, the machine lifted and was prevented from rising by the outriggers. During its test run, all the outriggers were engaged, showing that it had developed enough lift to take off, but in so doing, it pulled up the track; the tethered "flight" was aborted in time to prevent disaster, with exactly the same vein used to justify Gagarin's claim. To put it simply, it left the rail, flew a little ways only to crash. But is he remembered as the first man to fly a heavier-than-air?

Moreover, Alberto Santos-Dumont rather than Wright Brothers was recognised in Brazil as the first person to make a flight simply because it's the first of their kind recognised by the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale. There were differing views of criteria in order to gain recognition as first heavier than air flight too and within such backdrops no doubt there's a point to be nitpicky by law and by fact records, just like the list of firsts in aviation with First confirmed manned powered flight made by Clément Ader in particular, coupled with the present wider turbulent context, not helped with this Newsweek article from two months ago alleging Gagarin of touching the Queen's leg. There'd still be the argument on whether to classify John Glenn's Friendship 7 as technically the first to complete the first human orbital spaceflight by the strict interpretation, had Shepard beat Gagarin into space. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 19:26, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

By now the rough consensus appeared to favor the restoration of the FAQ templates, so I had proceeded to edit the according articles' talk pages. However, those templates may be superseded if it's decided to move the information to Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group/FAQ pursuant to PaulT2022's suggestions. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 11:49, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

"Rough" is certainly one way to describe the consensus with adding the FAQ. You support, I oppose but happy to see other Editors opinions, @ TompaDompa: does not mind it being removed and @ PaulT2022: stated "If an FAQ is made, it probably should be maintained under Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group rather than one of the pages." In other words, their is no consensus to add the FAQ to Talk:Space Age, Talk:Timeline of space exploration or Talk:Timeline of the Space Race. Therefore I am reverting your "Rough consensus" edits as their is no consensus.

PaulT2022 also made a very useful proposal to "...add a reference to a neutral source that clearly establishes Gagarin's primacy as the first person to fly to space by focusing on what was achieved, such as https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/56718196". I agree that this is worthwhile and will add this reference.

As TompaDompa has already suggested, IP address WP:drop the stick. Ilenart626 ( talk)

There is an implicit consensus which would be best indicated in this improvement edit made by @ TompaDompa: made immediately after Paul's feedback. Aside from that, your reversion had also orphaned the page; you'd be better off not acting too rash next time.

WP:KOOLAID said that However, speaking out against consensus and policy is not disruptive if it is done with civility, while we had already circled the wagon so many times regarding the problems that would arise if the passage was completely left out, even as a template in talk page. I'm pretty sure you have noticed the guideline stating that especially contentious content should be relegated to the talk page rather than deleted.

In fact, I was in agreement with @ PaulT2022: that it is best moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group, most certainly as a subpage. By then the move and the inclusion of templates in affected pages would not be mutually exclusive since editing those templates individually across multiple pages is set to be exhaustive without that "centralization", and likely not be as "odd" in terms of styles as it is under the subpage of the Timeline of the Space Race talkspace. To put it simply, if there is something to add to the template, they can simply edit the centralized page over at the WikiProject conveniently.

This is not to mention that despite the heated discussion between me and Ilenart626, I have to agree with the latter that this thread is not to be hard closed and instead left open of further comments from other editors and readers. This is due to the fact that there is no participation from members, particularly subject matter experts like JustinTime55 who're actually listed in Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight and Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group. In most times this can be quite problematic as this can be construed as WP:SHAMCONSENSUS or precisely unrepresentative consensus, although to avoid filibustering it's better if we can settle on something first, in this case the move of the information to the Wikiproject FAQs, like a "checkpoint" in a game. Unfortunately I may need further assistance to perform the move as IP editors do not have move permissions 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 11:59, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Otherwise, it might be possible to simply merge the FAQ onto the Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group front page itself, as a "FAQ for readers". Not to mention that foreign language BBC articles like this made mentions of the controversy but ultimately closing it out with "the FAI approved Gagarin's spaceflight records" and "first to travel to space". 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 12:11, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

What are you talking about? There is no implicit consensus to include the FAQ, and adjusting its phrasing doesn't create one. Stop misrepresenting the discussion as you have repeatedly done. TompaDompa ( talk) 14:25, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Regarding implicit consensus and stop misrepresentating the discussion, like it or not due to the improvement edit, by the views of WP:COMMONSENSE it can be broadly interpreted as being "hmm, okay" with it. As for the very latter, no, quite the opposite and not the first time. Instead, aside from the "implicit consensus", I see that you had mistaken my brief restoration edits of interim nature pursuant to WP:STATUSQUO and WP:PROCESSFIRST as disruptive, while giving no condemnation to edits made by Ilenart626. Please note that at worst it reeks of double standards and even be construed as gaslighting, which of course would not be taken kindly by the editing community. (Disclaimer: The original computer network was down not unlike the 2022 Rogers Communications outage so I have to use another network at another place, hence the address difference).

In light of an insight made by a very experienced editor and GA reviewer, turns out that we are not really arguing about scientific questions and instead over the semantics of a few words. Hence we have to consider the possibility of returning to the very starting point after going through a large circle, although with few modifications such as more citations in the affected pages along with the addition of FAQ in Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group. The only solace would be the learning of an interesting fact where Gagarin's record of attaining highest altitude in elliptical orbit through a one-man spacecraft remains unsurpassed.

After all, I have to strongly agree with his insight as per Dictionary of lexicography By R. R. K. Hartmann, Gregory James, an encyclopedic definition is more concerned with encyclopedic knowledge (facts) than linguistic concerns. Within the pages like Timeline of space exploration, the passage instead would be just like those that distinguised both successful and failed Mars probes in terms of firsts specifically Mars 1 and Mariner 4, alongside New Horizons' Last original encounter with one of the nine major planets recognized in 1981. These were allowed to stand without much fuss, making this more akin to unnecessarily make a mountain out of a molehill from that perspective alone. If this debacle occurs on Simple English Wikipedia, then you might have a point as that Wikipedia is described by Tim Dowling of The Guardian newspaper that "the Simple English version tends to stick to commonly accepted facts". 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 04:35, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

like it or not due to the improvement edit, by the views of WP:COMMONSENSE it can be broadly interpreted as being "hmm, okay" with it – I'm the one who made the improvement edit. I'm telling you that I don't agree that it means that the FAQ should be included. You could have asked me what I thought rather than assuming that I would be in favour of including the FAQ, and it's not like my approval would instantly create consensus in favour of including the FAQ anyway. The reason I called your edits disruptive is that you agree that the material is WP:FRINGE, that there is no controversy, and that the material does not belong in article space—and yet you added the material to article space to make a WP:POINT. I already told you this. You are being disruptive by promoting WP:FRINGE views that you acknowledge are fringe views, by WP:Bludgeoning the discussion, and by refusing to WP:Drop the stick. TompaDompa ( talk) 05:45, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

IMO this isn't a scientific question, it is a question on the mere definition of a mere word in the English language "spaceflight" and other synonyms. In most areas it goes by the common meaning of the term and IMO what Yuri did is included within that. But the article can and should cover "who was first" under other prominent definitions. North8000 ( talk) 12:30, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the insight which I had neglected in this discussion so far. 204.15.72.92 ( talk) 13:03, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

@ North8000: Although considering your insight, returning to the starting point where the passage remains on Alan Shepard's entry within the timelines looks set to be the way out, there are other legitimate concerns by the editors I've discussed with above that it would possibly confuse readers, or become a POV issue for readers living in Russia or other CIS countries. In this case I think it's also better to preserve other modifications made by TompaDompa and Ilenart626 namely the addition of more link citations from BBC and anywhere into the timeline boxes, and the so-called FAQ templates which according to PaulT2022, would be placed under Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight/Timeline of spaceflight working group. I'd be happy if you are able to give advice on this too.

Moreover, should serious disagreements still occur after this point then I am proposing a compromise counteroffer which will involve Wikipedia:Content_forking#Project-level_forking forking of only summarized contents which are undisputably common facts (i.e. Sputnik, Alexei Leonov's first spacewalk, Apollo 11) into Simple English Wikipedia, as a last resort, while leaving out intricacies like Mars 1M and the Alan Shepard passage. This would be a best of both worlds as the Simple version sticks to commons facts while the ordinary English Wikipedia favors more to the raw presentation of information. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 04:35, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Gargarin made the first human spaceflight, the full trip. If he felt safer or had a reason to parachute down (I haven't read the full discussion) he carried the most important object which defined his mission as a human spaceflight: himself. Mentioning it on pages is an interesting fact, but it should be worded so it does not diminish, in any way, Gargarin's pioneering accomplishment and actually promotes it (although Albert II would have something to clear his throat about). Randy Kryn ( talk) 03:03, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

True, and at the same time we need to avoid unnecessary WP:POVFUNNEL given that this is essentially a semantic debate rather than scientific question, and particularly the fact that the information distinguishing failed and successful Mars probe are allowed to uncontroversially stand. Notetags will be needed, as does those clarifying link references from BBC and otherwise that were added in the meantime. An ultimate last resort would be the forking of undisputedly common facts from those pages into Simple English Wikipedia. As a hypothetical and theoretical exercise I suppose that had Shepard beat Gagarin into space then we'd all be still arguing and discussing on John Glenn's "first orbital spaceflight without jumping out of spacecraft during landing" instead. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 04:35, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

I totaly agree with TompaDmpa, “You are being disruptive by promoting WP:FRINGE views that you acknowledge are fringe views, by WP:Bludgeoning the discussion, and by refusing to WP:Drop the stick.” You need to move on from this discussion as NO ONE agrees with you. Ilenart626 ( talk) 06:46, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Due to the unfortunate fact that some of us may be entering the WP:ASPERSIONS territory, alongside problems in my original computer network, it's better to do a temporary mutual withdrawal and take a break for a few days now.

Next, since this is a semantical debacle, I'd have to retract my earlier statements that agrees with Tompa's ad nauseum assertion regarding WP:FRINGE whether tacit or not, on the grounds it was a product of mischaracterization as, to quote a comment, "scientific question".

In the meantime an administrator from Simple English Wikipedia had been invited to comment on this discussion, in order to advice on the suitability of forking contents from Timeline of space exploration and Timeline of the Space Race into Simple English Wikipedia. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 17:15, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

some of us may be entering the WP:ASPERSIONS territory – yes, you made accusations of gaslighting. Now stop moving the goalposts. It doesn't matter if the question is one of science or semantics—per the sources, the position that Gagarin did not make the first human spaceflight is a WP:FRINGE one. It makes no difference if that's because it's a WP:FRINGE interpretation of "(human) spaceflight" semantically or because of some scientific reason. It's still WP:FRINGE, per the sources. TompaDompa ( talk) 17:32, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Regarding the accusations of gaslighting, it was made in the context of your misintepretation of procedural interim edits pursuant to WP:STATUSQUO and WP:PROCESSFIRST. For all the rest here, I would therefore share the page histories of Timeline of the Space Race, Timeline of space exploration and Space Age so that what were the "status quo ante bellum" would be clear enough in the air.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Timeline_of_the_Space_Race&offset=&limit=500&action=history
• https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Timeline_of_space_exploration&offset=&limit=500&action=history
• https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Space_Age&offset=&limit=500&action=history

Within the page histories, the facts will speak for themselves. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 18:39, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the page histories demonstrate that you wittingly restored WP:FRINGE material to article space to make a WP:POINT about WP:STATUSQUO. TompaDompa ( talk) 18:45, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

In fact, the standard operating procedures for WP:STATUSQUO edits involves the insert an appropriate tag indicating the text is under discussion.

• 1
• 2

At this point, to pretend otherwise would be more akin to the POV railroading. This is getting near the red line of WP:CIVILITY so I'd refrain from making further comments for a few days unless absolutely necessary, and instead passively awaiting further comments and advices from other subject matter experts whose fields are relevant to the topic of the discussion; can you do that in the spirit of WP:MUTUAL? 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 19:16, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Standard operating procedure is by no means inserting WP:FRINGE material that has already been removed for being WP:FRINGE material, that everyone in the discussion agrees is WP:FRINGE material, so it can be accompanied by a maintenance tag stating that it is WP:FRINGE material. Standard operating procedure for WP:FRINGE material is to remove the WP:FRINGE material. You added material that you knew and agreed wasn't compliant with the non-negotiable WP:Core content policy WP:NPOV because it's WP:FRINGE and tried to justify it by invoking the essay WP:STATUSQUO. Why do you want to include the WP:FRINGE material, knowing that it is WP:FRINGE material? TompaDompa ( talk) 19:37, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi,folks - just stepping in the middle here, following an invitation from 193.233.171.17 yesterday. I'm surprised to see so many bits spilled over this bit of esoterica. If the USSR had been vying for a cash prize and they didn't meet the conditions as verified by some outside observer, then they wouldn't have gotten it. Absent the cash prize and observer at the landing, and considering the FAI has since recognized Gagarin's flight as the first human spaceflight (because he did, after all, go to space and come back alive), Gagarin was the first. Any reader is free to research these matters more thoroughly and come to a different personal conclusion, but the conclusion throughout the corpus of literature on space exploration is unamibguous: the USSR was leading the space race. -- ke4roh ( talk) 13:56, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

@ Ke4roh:Thank you very much for the input. The discussion had in fact gotten so hot that I have to take a break and leave this to subject matter experts for a while. There is also the contentious question here on how to cover it as one side claims that it was "minority view" or even outright "fringe-y" while the other (including me and North) sees it as a "other prominent definitions" which "can and should be covered in the article"; the word "prominent" also vulnerable to different interpretations by the eyes of the beholders.

For the record the passage had actually stayed in the articles for six years or so, and in practice to arouse readers' interest in learning info from Wikipedia itself, including these kind of facts is also encouraged and even mandated, provided they are verifiable and given the proper weight, the latter again vulnerable to differing subjective judgement. This is not to mention that given the current international situation where readers are much more enthusiastic to challenge the veracity or extent of achievements made by Russia or USSR akin to lustration.

Summing these up, a number of middle way solutions have been proposed, such as the FAQ templates in the talk page of these articles and/or on relevant WikiProjects, alongside addition of footnotes. If (re-)inclusion of the passage is judged to be more preferable, then it certainly have to be rewritten so that it, to paraphrase a comment does not diminish Gagarin's flight in any way. Within the affected articles, a possible example would be the paring down the passage on Alan Shepard to just First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft. and leaving the rest into footnotes. I'd be thankful too if you can advise on how to proceed from here. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 19:58, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

It's not the opinion of some editors that this is WP:FRINGE, it's what the sources say. You know this, because it has been explained to you repeatedly. It has also been repeatedly explained to you that if you want to include Shepard being the first to land inside the spacecraft, you have to demonstrate that it is not a WP:MINORASPECT by showing that it is WP:PROPORTIONAL to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject (i.e. the history of space exploration and the history of the Space Race, respectively). TompaDompa ( talk) 21:54, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Regarding Shepard being the first to land inside the spacecraft, the Praxis Manned Spaceflight Log 1961-2006 by Tim Furniss and David J. Shayler describes Freedom 7 as 1st flight to end with the crew aboard on page 25. It's near the section "The Quest for Space". 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 22:37, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

A roughly-800-page tome giving this a single-sentence mention after having listed the same mission as "2nd manned space flight", "1st US manned space flight", "1st to make orientation manoueuvres", and "1st flight to splashdown in the sea" doesn't exactly scream that this is a significant aspect that should be included in our timelines. I'm sure you wouldn't think including that Lev Dyomin became the first grandfather in space with Soyuz 15 in our timelines would be WP:PROPORTIONAL based on this source alone, and that gets the same level of coverage by the source (if anything, slightly higher since it's the fourth milestone out of four listed rather than the fifth out of five). The same source credits Gagarin with "1st manned space flight", by the way. The source is also neither on history of space exploration or the history of the Space Race specifically but on the history of human spaceflight. Anyway, if we look at Appendix D: A Selected Timeline (which is way more similar in level of detail to our articles than the book as a whole is), it mentions of the respective missions that Yuri Gagarin becomes the first person fly into space and completes one orbit and Alan Shepard becomes the first American in space on a sub-orbital flight. TompaDompa ( talk) 23:22, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

The thing is, Shepard's first to land inside the spacecraft goes more to technical achievements while Dyumin's first grandfather in space goes more to "personal achievements", which the former would undoubtedly fit into the criteria in Timeline of the Space Race's lead sections specifically that of technical innovation. After all it's bound to be a sheer absurdity in the (aero)space field if pilots and by extension passengers cannot make their way home safely without jumping out of their craft in the midst of their landing to this day, though presently I have no strong feelings against including Dyumin's fact in those articles and/or elsewhere in Wikipedia since I actually spend more time reading than editing. Regarding that the source is also neither on history of space exploration or the history of the Space Race specifically but on the history of human spaceflight, concurrently they are interwoven or overlapping to each other as far as I can see regarding the standard perception of those fields. NASA has this stating Unlike the early U.S. human spaceflight programs, Gagarin did not land inside of capsule. Instead, he ejected from the spacecraft and landed by parachute. Different from Praxis logs and just like most other citations, they reported on the fact that Gagarin did not remain inside the spacecraft, although all it takes to reach to the conclusion as explicitly stated by Praxis is an immediate inference probably in the veins of disjunctive syllogism. Taking account of the logical aspects, I'd say that they meets the bar for "other prominent definitions".

On the footnotes, for the rest who're uninitiated, I start to get the feeling that this is reminiscent of those record disputes or discrepancies in Olympic sports so I went to check and found that in All-time Olympic Games medal table, there are Disputed participation notes near the bottom; the "some sources" wordings could be useful in this context as suggested earlier to cover that bit of info regarding the discrepancy of the Vostok 1 landing. The footnote methodology would also be useful if future disputes or discrepancies arise, in the ongoing advent of space exploration. After all despite our feelings and whatever is written, the Space Race sections of those timelines are bound to be looked as a scoreboard for most readers, given the obvious context of that era. Let's see what the experts have to say at this point; the reason why I invited Ke4roh and others to this discussion is due in part of Justin's surprising absence in here where significant inputs and advices from subject matter experts are needed in order to reach an amicable resolution; in this case WP:ALLARGUMENTS apply. I regret that I haven't thought about WP:RFC earlier, though it's too late by now. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 11:26, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

To my complete surprise, the present FAI Sporting Code on Section 8 (spaceflight) contains the following at 2.15:

UNCOMPLETED FLIGHT

A flight is deemed to be uncompleted if:

a) an accident occurs during the flight resulting in the death of any member of the crew within 48 hours or,

b) any member of the crew definitively leaves the spaceship during the flight.

Note: In the case of space stations which qualify as spaceships under 2.16 below, 2.15 (b) above shall not apply.

At this point it is definitely in the "other prominent definitions" territory. I rest my case for now. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 13:03, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough about Dyomin, but I could have just as well used "1st in-flight public TV" from Vostok 3 and 4 as my example. And none of this changes the fact that Shepard being the first to land inside the spacecraft is per the sources a WP:MINORASPECT. Your assertions about "other prominent definitions" is your personal opinion (and WP:Original research, to boot). Your comparison with record disputes or discrepancies in Olympic sports misses the mark because according to the sources, there is no controversy about Gagarin making the first human spaceflight. You even acknowledged yourself that there is no controversy. Per the sources, your position is a WP:FRINGE view. You're entitled to your opinion, but Wikipedia is not in the business of promoting WP:FRINGE views. So I'll ask you this outright, and I expect an answer: why are you promoting WP:FRINGE views on Wikipedia? TompaDompa ( talk) 13:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

In light of discovery of the wording in the present FAI definition, the matter then becomes that Gagarin and Shepard did indeed made spaceflight, except the former is "uncompleted spaceflight" while the latter is "completed spaceflight". Had FAI sporting codes remained textually same from the 1960s until now, the former wouldn't be called a "spaceflight" at all. Ultimately the Tech Republic article had the following:

Thus, he did not “legally” complete a piloted flight under the guidelines of the FAI, the international aeronautics governing body. For years, the Soviet Union hid this information from the world at large, omitting the pilot-egress portion of the Vostok flight plan and contending that Gagarin returned to Earth in his craft, therefore qualifying for FAI records and avoiding any political naysaying or second-guessing by Western powers looking to discredit Gagarin’s achievements. A similar space flight soon validated the rationale behind this subterfuge. On May 5, 1961—less than a month after Gagarin’s flight—U.S. astronaut Alan Shepard journeyed into and returned from outer space without leaving his Freedom 7 capsule (which could land safely in part because of its ability to splash down over the ocean). The Soviet Union’s deception went undiscovered for decades, well after others had surpassed both Gagarin’s and Shepard’s FAI records.

With that passage and combining with the present FAI sporting code and all the sources put in here so far, it goes right into one of the WP:OR exemptions, specifically that SYNTH is not the word "thus". Regarding my earlier agreement with your statement on WP:FRINGE, I had since retracted it after it was made clear that this was a semantical debacle. I'm not going, and have no obligation to answer regarding your personally-pointed question on WP:FRINGE under the grounds that it is very likely a loaded question which can only make heated discussions to end up badly, be it on Wikipedia and elsewhere. Instead, we should do a WP:MUTUAL and pass the stage once more to subject matter experts. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 14:16, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Gagarin and Shepard did indeed made spaceflight, except the former is "uncompleted spaceflight" is WP:Original research, specifically WP:SYNTH. It's a textbook example: you combined different sources to arrive at a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. TechRepublic—"an online trade publication and social community for IT professionals, providing advice on best practices and tools for the needs of IT decision" per our article on them—is hardly the most WP:Reliable source for what the mainstream view is on which the first human spaceflight was. And even then, they felt the need to qualify it with "legally" (" scare quotes" in original). The National Air and Space Museum however says: The conclusion of the delegates was to rework the parameters of human spaceflight to recognize that the great technological accomplishment of spaceflight was the launch, orbiting and safe return of the human, not the manner in which he or she landed. Gagarin and Titov's records remained on the FAI books. and as is true with any sports organization, the FAI reserved the right to reexamine and reinterpret its rules in light of new knowledge and circumstances. Yuri Gagarin remains indisputably the first person in space and the concept that the first cosmonauts had to land inside their spacecraft is a faded artifact of the transition from aviation to spaceflight. The FAI itself says the FAI duly amended the rules to encompass this new form of aviation and so the awards were ratified. The book Human Spaceflight by Joseph A. Angelo (a source you brought up—and quote mined, as noted by PaulT2022) says Gagarin's mission and marvelous accomplishment is still almost universally recognized as the first human spaceflight. And the Seeker article (not exactly a great source on this, but again one you brought up and quoted selectively) says the FAI held a special meeting of delegates to reexamine Titov's records and reconsider Gagarin's. The result of the meeting was a change to the parameters that defined spaceflight rather than a change to the records. The parameters switched to focus on the payload launched; this technical achievement mattered more than how the astronaut or cosmonaut landed. That Gagarin had orbited the Earth was the real achievement, and both his and Titov's records remain in the FAI's books. and After the decision to keep Gagarin's record intact, the early Vostok landing system went from a controversial issue to a historical oddity of the transition from flight in aircraft to spaceflight in capsules. You do understand that almost universally recognized as the first human spaceflight means that the notion that it wasn't is a WP:FRINGE view, right? Your whole "it's about semantics" argument is a complete red herring. It doesn't matter if you're promoting a WP:FRINGE interpretation of events or a WP:FRINGE interpretation of words—it's still WP:FRINGE. So answer the question: why are you so insistent on including this? TompaDompa ( talk) 15:27, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Ah, I actually missed more of SYNTH exceptions, namely that SYNTH is not a rigid rule, SYNTH is not obvious II saying that If something is obvious to anyone who reads and understands the sources that are supposed to support it, then it's not SYNTH. An example of a perfectly valid citation is given in the guideline on citations, at WP:Bundling: "The sun is pretty big, but the moon is not so big.[1]" The bundled citation uses one source for the size of the sun, and another for the size of the moon. Neither says that the sun is bigger than the moon, but the article is making that comparison. Given the two sources, the conclusion is obvious. So a typical reader can use the sources to check the accuracy of the comparison, and SYNTH is not just any synthesis which is significant because in 2004, Jimbo Wales actually contrasted synthesis with original research: "In many cases, the distinction between original research and synthesis of published work will require thoughtful editorial judgment." [2] It seems clear that "synthesis of published work" was assumed to be part of the legitimate role of Wikipedia. Furthermore, considering the wording of the 2.15 of present FAI sporting code, calling Vostok 1 as an "uncompleted flight" doesn't necessarily makes it not a spaceflight; it's simply a precisionist categorization based on the nature of the flight which is a little bit like how suborbital and orbital flights are distinguished. Again and sadly, that is also vulnerable to the eyes of the beholders as well. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 16:30, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Again with the terrible WP:WikiLawyering. You are expressing your opinion that, given this definition of "uncompleted spaceflight", that's what Gagarin did. Surely you see that you're doing the same thing as the hypothetical editor in the canonical "plagiarism" example of WP:SYNTH (The second paragraph is original research because it expresses a Wikipedia editor's opinion that, given the Harvard manual's definition of plagiarism, Jones did not commit it.)? Anyway, answer the question: why are you so insistent on including this? TompaDompa ( talk) 17:24, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Guess what? We have been reinventing a whole wheel without knowing it. A paragon of virtue for @ Randy Kryn:'s Mentioning it on pages is an interesting fact, but it should be worded so it does not diminish, in any way, Gargarin's pioneering accomplishment and actually promotes it can be found in Timeline of space travel by nationality where a footnote stated:

Under Fédération Aéronautique Internationale rules, the Vostok missions are not deemed true spaceflights, as cosmonauts did not land with the spacecraft (they ejected from the spacecraft and landed separately). The first Soviet mission that did fulfill this requirement was Voskhod 1. ("FAI Astronautic Records Commission – Sporting Code Section 8" (PDF). Fédération Aéronautique Internationale. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2006-05-26. Retrieved 2006-04-09.) However, despite this issue, the FAI does recognize Yuri Gagarin as the first person to complete a spaceflight.

The page history indicated a silent yet far more longstanding consensus, than the passage of Alan Shepard as stated above. In order to be lucid about the extent of "status quo" over there, here are a few links:

• 2008
• 2009
• 2010
• 2011
• 2012
• 2013
• 2014
• 2015
• 2016
• 2017
• 2018
• 2019
• 2020
• 2021

What if, we settle on that instead and hence make the remaining passage into only First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft? @ JustinTime55: @ PaulT2022: @ Randy Kryn: what's your take on this? 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 18:20, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Wouldn't this logic imply that Apollo 11 article needs to be amended to state that "although FAI later recognised the Apoolo 11 flight records, Apollo 11 mission isn't deemed a true spaceflight according to FAI requirements, as Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin exited the spacecraft, failing to complete flight to the Moon by FAI regulations" as well?

Sarcasm aside, my position is still the same: as FAI never recognised who was the first person to complete a spaceflight (or fly to the Moon for that matter), a WP:RS should be provided that would establish how FAI rules relevant to such determination, outside of their intended scope for establishing FAI-recognised records. (Where the 'leaving the ship' rule is consistently ignored by FAI both for Vostok 1 and Apollo 1.) I believe no sources (apart from a lengthy synth from FAI rule book) surfaced since this was discussed last time. PaulT2022 ( talk) 18:35, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Per the 2.13 of present FAI Sporting Code, Apollo 11 would qualify as Temporary halts at non-manned space stations or places other than the planet Earth, either with the purpose of refurbishing the spacecraft or making repairs, are not considered termination of flight as long as all work is performed by the original crew, the same original crew resumes the mission, and no other human beings are involved. Regarding Shepard's First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft alone, it is backed up by Praxis Manned Spaceflight Log 1961-2006 by Tim Furniss and David J. Shayler, which describes Freedom 7 as 1st flight to end with the crew aboard on page 25, near the section "The Quest for Space". 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 19:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

And as noted above, Shepard landing inside the spacecraft gets a single-sentence mention in a roughly-800-page tome—the same amount of weight as Vostok 3 and 4 having the "1st in-flight public TV" gets—and is not mentioned in the "Selected Timeline" presented in Appendix D. It is, per the sources, a WP:MINORASPECT. Why is it so important for you to include this? TompaDompa ( talk) 19:10, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

The Furniss and Shayler quote above doesn't mention anything about FAI rules or that Gagarin's spaceflight wasn't a spaceflight by some important definition. There's a massive gap between the proposed edit(s) and WP:RS, which is proposed to be filled with a massive amount of editor's opinion. PaulT2022 ( talk) 19:41, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

At this point the proposed edits can into just "First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft" alone on Alan Shepard's section within the timelines backed up by the Praxis citation, while putting a footnote identical to that was on Timeline of space travel by nationality on Yuri Gagarin's section before Tompa removed it, although for the latter a minor rewording is certainly in order. I suspect that by now, a sitewide WP:RFC is the only way in order to garner exact consensus from editors and readers on this and reach an amicable closure. By that stage I pledge to be respectful of the RFC outcome though. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 19:55, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

The RFC is currently being proposed at here.05:56, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

This is plain WP:I didn't hear that behaviour. The Shepard stuff violates WP:MINORASPECTS and the Gagarin stuff violates WP:FRINGE/ WP:Original research, as has been repeatedly explained to you. You still haven't answered my question: why are you pushing so hard to include this information? TompaDompa ( talk) 20:05, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Also, proposing a sitewide WP:RFC just seems like WP:Forum shopping to me. You started at Talk:Space Race, where all other editors agree[d] your edits were poor as CMD put it, then moved here (despite saying that you wouldn't, as Andyjsmith noted) where you have again been told by multiple editors that your suggestions violate Wikipedia's WP:Core content policies, and now you're suggesting to take it a step further? TompaDompa ( talk) 20:41, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

It is good that you alert us to the long-standing flagrant WP:Original research at the Timeline of space travel by nationality article so it can be removed. This is again a clear example of expressing a Wikipedia editor's opinion that, given the FAI rules, the Vostok missions were not "true spaceflights" (never mind that the FAI specifically amended their rules to address this as they considered this aspect to be outdated/irrelevant when it came to spaceflight) just as in the canonical "plagiarism" example of WP:SYNTH. And again: per the sources, Shepard being the first to land inside the spacecraft is a WP:MINORASPECT that it would be undue to mention in these articles. Why are you so dead set on including this? TompaDompa ( talk) 19:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Rather than request for comment, would suggest a WP:CLOSE of this discussion would be more appropriate. As per WP:WHENCLOSE I believe this discussion has reached the level where "When further contributions are unlikely to be helpful: ...when further responses are likely to result in little more than wasting everyone's time by repeating the same widely held view, then it should be closed sooner rather than later.".

I believe a simple summary of this discussion is 193.233.171.17 is advocating changes that the majority of Editors consider are WP:MINORASPECTS, WP:FRINGE and lately WP:Original research and none of the changes should be included. Thoughts?

Pinging all involved Editors for their input @ TompaDompa: @ PaulT2022: @ North8000: @ Randy Kryn: @ Ke4roh: Ilenart626 ( talk)

In fact, the discussion has also previously headed toward a "protracted stability" too before North's and Randy's comments. To play a bit of devil's advocate, without RFC there is still the loose end likely in form of close challenges, such as the issues unrepresentative consensus. But with RFC, the rationale of the loose ends would be rendered moot. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 05:56, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I initially was leaning towards WP:FRINGE based on a false claim by 193.233.171.17 that FAI recognised that Gagarin was first in space. After verifying this in contemporaneous NYT reporting and primary FAI publications, it became clear that FAI had nothing to do with recognising Gagarin's primacy in space. I believe only two sources were provided that could possibly be used to support the proposed edit without synthesis, one being a children's book written by a non-expert, making the edit unsourced per WP:REDFLAG due to statements about FAI involvement that contradict with coverage in NYT/FAI.

I support the concern raised by 193.233.171.17 about readers possibly coming to Wikipedia after hearing conspiracy theories and not understanding why it claims that Gagarin was first in space; I believe a consensus was reached in this discussion to resolve this by including a reference to a neutral source where Gagarin's primacy is explained and my understanding is that this was done.

Support close. PaulT2022 ( talk) 07:47, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

It's not just the mere confusion about the claims; in the event of omission readers would ask why Wikipedia neglects to cover it and give rise to the feelings of systematic bias by omission. Regarding reference to a neutral source where Gagarin's primacy is explained, there are BBC sources in other languages like this which are essentially the expanded version of the original report; they actually touched it for a bit before ending with well rounded closure saying that he's ultimately the first man in space or so. To WP:IAR a bit and assuming implicit agreement I gonna put the BBC article alongside the sources at those pages, due in part of the preparing of all possibilities with regards to the looming RFC. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 11:14, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I see that JustinTime55 has reverted your addition on Space race on the basis of WP:Citation overkill and I have reverted your additions to Timeline of space exploration and Timeline of the Space Race as their is no consensus for this addition. Do you really believe that adding this non-English citation which 99% of English Wiki reader cannot read helps in any way? Ilenart626 ( talk)

Per WP:NOENG, citations to foreign language reliable sources are allowed. Template:Request quotation can be used to verify the material should dispute arise. This is getting into the WP:JDLI territory considering your remarks of Do you really believe that adding this non-English citation which 99% of English Wiki reader cannot read helps in any way?. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 13:05, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Enough already. The material was already properly sourced meaning the addition was unnecessary, and the addition itself was a transparent attempt to Trojan horse your POV into the articles. If people want to read about the details of Vostok 1 and Yuri Gagarin, they can read those articles. Either come right out and state for the record why you want to include this in the timeline articles or WP:Drop the stick. TompaDompa ( talk) 13:49, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I'm neutral on this, I was just trying to help. North8000 ( talk) 12:40, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Following the brief and informal consultations and feedbacks from a particular subject matter expert on spaceflight topics who's also a de-facto lead editor in these fields within Wikipedia, it is learned that the following facts are present in historical consensus:

• Gagarin is acknowledged as first human in space and in orbit; as the FAI decided, it's a trivial technicality he didn't land in the craft.
• Shepard is the first American in space; also first to control his spacecraft and land in it (but no cigar as far as "first in space" goes).

Pursuant to the feedback which I hope will be a tiebreaker and thus avert WP:RFC and further WP:DRAMA; the former having the side effect of wasting editors' time, it should be okay to pare the passage at Alan Shepard's in the aforementioned timeline articles down to First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft, or simply smerge with First human-piloted space flight to become first to control his spacecraft and land in it though the latter could fail relevant style guide since the wording is not "professional" enough.

With regards to Yuri Gagarin and again in the pages discussed here, taking account of the suggestions from @ Randy Kryn: putting a so-called "asterisk on the entry" in the form of Template:NoteTag with a near carbon copy from Gagarin's biographical article stating the following should be good to go:

Gagarin ejected from the capsule during landing. Due to this there were concerns the spaceflight would not be recognized by the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale (FAI), the world governing body for setting standards and keeping records in the field, which at the time required that the pilot land with the craft. Gagarin's spaceflight records were nonetheless certified and reaffirmed by the FAI, which revised its rules, and acknowledged that the crucial steps of the safe launch, orbit, and return of the pilot had been accomplished. Gagarin is internationally recognised as the first human in space and first to orbit the Earth.

As this looks to be a last turn before RFC is inevitable, everyone here is invited to ponder about this. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 12:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

An RfC is in no way inevitable. You can always just WP:Drop the stick. Ilenart626 suggested closing this discussion on the grounds that further discussion is unlikely to be productive. PaulT2022 supported this suggestion. You yourself acknowledged that an RfC would be wasting editors' time. I agree that further discussion on this—here or elsewhere—is unlikely to be productive. This is the second venue (after Talk:Space Race) that has resoundly rejected your suggestions. Closing this discussion seems reasonable considering that you do not appear to be willing to just disengage. I would view you opening any new discussions on this, such as the RfC you mention, as overt WP:Forum shopping (as mentioned at WT:RFC). TompaDompa ( talk) 12:54, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

To digress a bit the central topic of the discussion had itself moved as time goes; the original Talk:Space Race thread was regarding perceived NPOV problems in Space Race, such as The Sputnik V COVID-19 vaccine in the "See also" section, which should just be in namesake satellite page as it's a bit out of scope in this article, appears to be something that "spikes the football" for Russia, in spite of original editor's intentions when adding the link to here which was long since fixed, and the omission of GALCIT which is actually a mere section below this discussion about Gagarin. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 13:18, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Keep note that there isn't really a WP:SNOWBALL consensus at the moment to prematurely hard close this discussion on the basis that a consensus was reached to resolve the issues raised by including this reference to a neutral source where Gagarin's primacy is explained on Timeline of space exploration and Timeline of the Space Race. 204.15.72.92 other changes were considered deficient by all other Editors and should not be included in any articles:

• IMO this isn't a scientific question, it is a question on the mere definition of a mere word in the English language "spaceflight" and other synonyms. In most areas it goes by the common meaning of the term and IMO what Yuri did is included within that. But the article can and should cover "who was first" under other prominent definitions. North8000 (talk) 12:30, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
• Gargarin made the first human spaceflight, the full trip. If he felt safer or had a reason to parachute down (I haven't read the full discussion) he carried the most important object which defined his mission as a human spaceflight: himself. Mentioning it on pages is an interesting fact, but it should be worded so it does not diminish, in any way, Gargarin's pioneering accomplishment and actually promotes it (although Albert II would have something to clear his throat about). Randy Kryn (talk) 03:03, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

193.233.171.17 ( talk) 13:25, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Note: Quotation text edited to reflect a posted comment. The old version cited a draft comment. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 16:23, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

The details of Gagarin's spaceflight can be read, for those who are interested in reading about them, at Yuri Gagarin and Vostok 1. That should be satisfactory to you. Your suggestions about the timeline articles have been resoundly rejected as incompatible with WP:Core content policies. TompaDompa ( talk) 13:34, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

I see that three Editors involved in this discussion have all confirmed that they believe the discussion should be closed. Suggest that it should be closed on the basis that a consensus was reached to resolve the issues raised by including this reference to a neutral source where Gagarin's primacy is explained on Timeline of space exploration and Timeline of the Space Race. 204.15.72.92 other changes were considered deficient by all other Editors and should not be included in any articles.

I see that 204.15.72.92 has requested JustinTime55 further input to this discussion on his Talk page. Recommend that we leave the discussion open for another 24 hours and, if after that time their is no further useful input, that we request closure. Ilenart626 ( talk) 13:45, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, my concerns about reader's animosity towards perceived pro-Russia slants in general within the current international context are vindicated to a degree as of this moment. But nevermind; in the meantime an ad-hoc request had been delivered to the aforementioned subject matter expert requesting feedback and/or assessment of the "last-minute solution", which in this very context will serve as the final say. With that in mind, it is hoped that this can be resolved in 24 hours particularly given that this discussion has been going non-stop for almost two weeks give or take. After all to be fair we, including myself and yourselves aren't spotless and blameless either because ultimately it seems like way too much WP:Wikidrama being made of a dispute which should be easily resolvable by growing the hell up and presenting the verifiable mainstream facts in a NPOV way. This is one thing that is absolutely umambigous. Once this issue is amicably resolved, I hope ya'll have the best of all lucks. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 13:55, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Oh, is that it—you think including this is necessary to combat a perceived pro-Russian slant in the articles? TompaDompa ( talk) 14:00, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

And let's be clear here: the only reason this has dragged on for two weeks is that you have refused to take no for an answer. TompaDompa ( talk) 16:00, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi, it's me again. Going into the realms of meta stuff which will be temporarily outside the topic of this discussion, there were cases like that before where the project decided to accede to "reader feelings" or so on, such as the renaming of Kiev to Kyiv; there's even an article specifically on the impacts of the war to Wikipedia editing as a whole. Maintaining project stability is all that matters for Wikipedia while its administrative processes are actually more akin authoritarian systems; there is even WP:CONEXCEPT stating that Wikipedia can hypothetically impose measures to override some standard consensuses and do things like prohibiting "whitewashing of Russian imperialism" if let's say it determined that it may harm project stability in the long run. While it hasn't obviously happened yet, to the best of my understanding Russia's action against Wikipedia might be a final straw to trigger a kind of Streisand effect and make the editing community to be fervent to check, minimise and/or fix those so-called pro-Russian slants in every field, be it polar expedition topics, history, and so on. In other words, not just this one. While outright disruptive actions such as vandalism would still be forbidden, legit or gray case actions like addition of verifiable contents to put a nuance (like this case) or removal of unsourced/unsubstantiated pufferies to that end will be the way and the norm.

Going back to this topic, yes I had to switch networks again since the previous two are open anonymising networks, thus vulnerable to misuse by vandals followed by blocks on the infrastructures. Nonetheless at this point I'd take it as a sign and after re-reading Justin's initial comments I think for the moment if the footnotes can be dropped leaving only First human space mission that landed with pilot still in spacecraft or smerge to become something like first to control his spacecraft and land in it on the aforementioned affected pages, and we can agree on it in principle, then we can skip waiting for Justin and proceed to a swift closure. 194.145.237.79 ( talk) 16:57, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

The current geopolitical situation with the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is neither here nor there. Wikipedia is not a place to WP:Right great wrongs.

It's great that you finally agree that the Gagarin stuff should not be included. I trust that you will not bring it up again. Nevertheless, Shepard landing (or more technically accurately splashing down) inside the spacecraft is per the sources a WP:MINORASPECT whose inclusion in these articles would be undue. TompaDompa ( talk) 21:32, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

@ TompaDompa: You're welcome. Pursuant to Blueboar's advice, this will be my last comment ever on this thread and I'd head out after this. I trust ya'll will abide that as well.

Ultimately I'd have to go back thinking about how to recover from Chronic Covid Syndrome, which due to me not getting Paxlovid sooner is not going to be easy, but is going to be hard.

Godspeed.

194.145.237.79 ( talk) 23:10, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Just to add, 24 hours is ideal, but the maximum should be until this Sunday to account for his quite-frequent breaks. If he finally weighs in and made the final call, I pledge to accept the judgement no matter what it is; you have my word. Godspeed. 193.233.171.17 ( talk) 19:18, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

193.233.171.17 was wondering where you obtained the following text you posted above: I see that three Editors involved in this discussion have all confirmed that the discussion should be closed on the basis that a consensus was reached to resolve the issues raised by including this reference to a neutral source where Gagarin's primacy is explained: as its funny that it is identical to this text I was in the process of drafting in my Sandbox. However I now see that you now admitt above that you were reading my sandbox before you posted your comments. Do you do that often to try and get advantage in discussions? Ilenart626 ( talk)

Looking at the latest proposals from anom I do not see anything useful or worth discussing further. Have requested closure at [ [31]], may take a few days depending on availability of an uninvolved Editor. Ilenart626 ( talk) 21:24, 22 July 2022 (UTC)