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The section War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Human shields is being frequently crafted by a couple of editors to:-
This source is being used to claim " source reports it as fact. See WP:ALLEGED", but the source appears to be quoting and summarizing statements provided by Ukrainian civilians, mainly a Ukrainian schoolteacher named Svitlana Bryhinets.
I believe the allegations by the Russian armed forces, covered by reliable sources, [5] should be preserved since Azov Battalion's claims are being mentioned for alleging Russia of using chemical weapons. [6]
Civilians from South Africa and Bangladesh have said that they were used as human shields by Ukrainian forces. This has got coverage from undoubtedly reliable sources like:
Moodley said she witnessed first-hand Ukrainian soldiers and police using black and Indian people as human shields while they were under attack by Russians, shouting that their lives meant nothing. "They were using black people as human shields," she said.
We are being used as human shields. They don't even give us enough food to eat," lamented Malik.
This Washington Post article provides details on the use of civilian-populated areas as battlefield by Ukrainian forces. It quotes Canadian academic William Schabas, Human Rights Watch researcher Richard Weir and others.
At this moment, the section is clearly not complying with
WP:YESPOV which says "Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them'
" and failing to maintain
WP:NPOV by keeping it one-sided.
Georgethedragonslayer (
talk) 10:08, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in the Wikipedia article." But here, upon checking the information we only find the claims from your "two" reliable sources to be based on the quotes provided by Ukrainian citizens, so they need to be properly attributed. You are similarly misreading the quotation by ignoring the sentence that "They imprisoned us with the sole purpose of using us as human shields," as the source is clearly talking about the "detention camp in Mykolaiv" which has been under Ukrainian control. Georgethedragonslayer ( talk) 08:32, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
Some protestors from the Maidan formed a predominantly female self-defence unit known as Unit 39, while in Eastern Ukraine there is reported to be a 25-member all female battalion based in the town of Krasny Luch. Some have suggested that the women have been recruited on the Eastern side as human shields; a Kiev news agency reported Donetsk leaders as saying 'no one will shoot at separatists if they are women'.
Women played a key role in providing supplies to family members who were effectively trapped on Ukrainian military bases in Crimea. Some went so far as to act as human shields, protecting Ukrainian troops during the invasion.
I don't know about TimesLIVE (what used to be a free tabloid from South Aftica) but I wouldn't call The Daily Star "undoubtedly reliable". It publishes a lot of sensationalist stories and garbage. Maybe not up there with DailyMail but maybe something like Express UK. Regardless, both of these sources "report" on claims that have not gotten coverage in any other main sources. If you search for "Russia Ukraine human shields" (or "Ukraine Russia human shields") you have to click through like 15+ pages of search results of "Russia is using human shields" before you find these stories. Someone (the editors trying to add this nonsense) went to a lot of trouble to find *something*, anything, that would serve as an excuse for them to write "both Russia and Ukraine are doing it". It's textbook POV pushing with false balance.
And in fact the story in the Star is just dubious. The individuals involved were in some detention camp "ran by the European Union" (sic) in the town of Zhuravychi which is... in Western Ukraine close to the Polish border nowhere close to where any fighting took place. Yet they are making claims that "Russians have taken the city" or "Russian tanks rolling by" and are calling on "Russian authorities to come rescue them" (!!!). They claim to be "human shields" but... like I said, there's absolutely been no fighting happening where they're at. It turns out that they're in the camp because they entered Ukraine illegally after... confusing Ukraine with Russia and crossing the border, and it seems Ukraine didn't know what to do with them ( [15]). It seems efforts were being made to repatriate them but it's not like you can just let a bunch of foreign dudes go wandering around a country that just got invaded and there's a war going on. Apparently these efforts weren't taking fast enough to to their liking. The claims about being "human shields" are pretty obviously hyperbolic exaggerations at best.
If you think that the above is on par with putting carriages with children on your tanks as you launch attacks then YOU are the one with a POV problem. In fact, this gross distortion right here illustrates nicely what the actual problem is on the article, and how desperately some people are trying to "both sides" the stories of war crimes that are coming out (sad truth is that one side is responsible for overwhelming majority of war crimes that've occurred and saying anything other than that fact is a clear breach of WP:NPOV and even WP:NOTHERE). Volunteer Marek 01:05, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
Article /info/en/?search=General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy is clearly full of problems, but apparently one user treats this article as holy and reverts changes. This includes talk page info. User has multiple accounts (as you can see that one user edited the other user's user page) which he uses to spread his agenda. Here's someone complaining about not having the endurance to keep fighting with the user: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy&oldid=786509167#Non_neutral It's from 2017 and the issues persist. We have many people attempting to fix the mistakes of one person—you know, the way wikipedia is supposed to work. But, this guy has been getting away with a spin on the article for ages-- 2604:2D80:DE11:1300:5D41:23B2:3C8B:39DC ( talk) 12:03, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
I found this article on a list of articles needing a copy edit, and indeed, one or more of the authors was clearly not a native English speaker, based on a lot of minor idiomatic tells. It wasn’t so bad that an original was needed though, nor did I find one. I think I have taken care of the English, and have removed that tag.
It does seem however to have been written from a Turkish point of view, particularly with reference to Cyprus, and in a couple of places it refers to “terrorists” (Kurds? Greeks?)
So....I think it could use some attention from people more familiar than I with the geopolitics and history of the region. I myself have no horse in this race and was merely there as the machine translation whisperer. Nor does there currently seem to be a particular dispute. It’s a new article, and obviously a notable topic.
@ StellarNerd: Elinruby ( talk) 23:09, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
This article is inherently quite controversial; for those who haven't followed the news, actor Johnny Depp won a defamation case against his ex-wife, actress Amber Heard, where she was found liable for making false statements that she was the victim of domestic abuse. Distilled, the main dispute is as follows:
Overall there are walls of text to wade through on the article talk; the most recent section heading, Talk:Depp v. Heard#Coming to an actual consensus for the "Reactions" section, gives a reasonable taste. Resolution through bludgeoning seems unlikely. Ovinus ( talk) 05:55, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
"Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.") I conducted searches google news searches for an appropriate period, from June 1 (the day of the verdict) to June 12 (the day before the search) which now display:
In writing the above I revisited my searches and found some different search result reading and have added note on the Depp v. Heard page to say:
Full disclosure, the results for the news searches on google for June 1-12 that I'm now finding are: 29,900 results for Depp Heard trial 5,720 results for Depp Heard trial MeToo This is on the same stated methodology that I mentioned earlier that, "On the results page you can only see the result numbers by selecting the text around and under the date and copying and pasting somewhere else." Something somewhere has glitched but my search based argument for WP:Due seems to have dissipated.
This search methodology was something that we regularly used when working with the Islamic State pages but I hadn't previously come across results variations, not least like this.
Greg Kaye 07:19, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
"Legal experts considered that Depp's chances of winning in the US were weaker than in the UK citing strong freedom of speech protections in the US."Later, when edit the internal link into I'd put this text, I had a real brain fart and mixed up the US and the UK with the result of the following edit edit [24] and, in the same text as I'd previously written, it then said
"Legal experts considered Depp's chances of winning to be better in the US than the UK."I do my best with editing, try to scrupulously keep my edits to NPOV and have done things like being the first to edit back a #MeToo reference into the article after another editor had blanked content with all the others. I think that the lack of diffs being presented here is suggestive that the accusations are nonsense. Greg Kaye 11:36, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
A dispute has arisen over the use of a totalitarian-era source used to claim the demographic primacy of one ethnic group over another [25] [26]. This is a high visibility country level article. Khirurg ( talk) 15:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia says that both Hawaii and new jersey are the 47th largest state. That can't be — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.134.112.215 ( talk) 15:54, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Does this sentence in Uyghur genocide meet weight: "A former Chinese police detective, exiled in Europe, revealed to CNN in 2021 details of the systematic torture of Uyghurs in detention camps in Xinjiang, acts in which he had participated, as he had feared his own arrest had he dissented." [ "Chinese whistleblower exposes torture of Uyghur prisoners in CNN interview", 5 October 2021.]
In the interview with CNN presenter Wolf Blitzer, a man using a pseudonym, dressed in the uniform of an inspector (3rd class) of the People's Police of the People's Republic of China, and disguised with a covid mask and dark sunglasses, claims to have participated in torture at the instructions of his superiors.
The interview was reported in The Times and The Telegraph, but I could find no coverage in other major mainstream reliable media, or any follow-up stories on CNN.
Given the lack of attention paid to this interview, I don't think it is significant to the topic, which has received widespread coverage. There are lots of red flags here: the lack of widespread coverage, the lack of corroboration and the fact that the disguise would not actually work.
TFD ( talk) 00:31, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
— Ⓜ️hawk10 ( talk) 01:54, 20 June 2022 (UTC)A former Chinese police detective, exiled in Europe, revealed to CNN in 2021 details of the systematic torture of Uyghurs in detention camps in Xinjiang, acts in which he had participated, and the fear of his own arrest had he dissented while in China.
revealed [...] details"). The sources (including the USHMM), from the US, UK, and Taiwan, might be completely reliable for most things, but they generally follow their government's line on China. Relations between those countries and China are at a new low, and during a "cold war" it's common for every false or exaggerated report from a refugee to be reported as news. Maybe this report is accurate, and maybe it's not. NightHeron ( talk) 08:52, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Over the past couple of weeks there has been a large amount of information added to Anti-Russian sentiment by a single user. Everything appears to be sourced, but I'm not convinced it's presented neutrally. I'd like to solicit the views of this noticeboard to let me know if I'm over-reacting. A collection of the edits (several difs) can be seen here, here, and here.
A few lines which concerned me:
Biased media coverage, as well as Russian actions such as the Second Chechen War, a Russian reaction to eastward NATO expansion and Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections contributed to anti-Russian sentiment
United Kingdom limited how much Russian nationals are allowed to save on bank accounts. Banking industry considered the restriction to violate UK equality laws, which forbid discrimination by nationality.
A mismatch between U.S. rhetoric about promoting democratic reforms in Russia and actual U.S. actions and policy has been said to cause deep resentment among Russians, helping Russian propaganda to construct a narrative of U.S. malign interference.
— Czello 21:28, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
Some analysts have argued that official Western rhetoric and journalism about Russian actions abroad have contributed to anti-Russian sentiment after the dissolution of Soviet Union in 1991, besides justifiable disapproval of Russian actions such as the Second Chechen War and reaction to NATO expansion. More recently, Russian interference in the 2016 United States election was proven by the investigation, however the press has been criticized for repeatedly covering unconfirmed and later discredited allegations of collusion between Donald Trump and Russia for years.-- PaulT2022 ( talk) 00:20, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
The Entire Article may also be a Copyright Violation as it Quotes Verbatim from Books on Secular Humanist. Which is the problem. It is Definitely also One in Which a Conflict of Interest exists with The Editor.
Here is The Link to The Article.
The Article basically Reads like an Advertisement trying to Convert You to Humanism. It has Glowing Things to say about it, disparages Christianity and Islam, and even The Criticism Page takes The Critic of Humanism from Books by Humanist Authors Who want to promote Humanism, and say Nonsense things like;
"Criticism of humanism focuses on its adherence to human rights, which some critics have further claimed are "Western"."
Seriously, The Criticism Section basically has fewer Critics of Humanism than The Humanism and Religion Section has of Theism and of Christianity. Which it offers No Counter to. It is Clearly one Sided and Biased.
It also Passes off Strawman Versions of the Existence of God as Genuine, and Attacks them, then claims their Failures are Why People become Humanist. Like Claiming The Ontological Argument is basically saying God Exists because We can Think of Him. That is not The Ontological Argument. That is a Ridiculous Strawman of The Ontological Argument. And Darwin did not Overturn The Argument From Deign. The Claims are Baseless. No Effort to Offer the Other Side is made. It just Declares them Failures and presents them ad a reason people are Choosing Humanism. If these Arguments are present, they should be Presented as they Really are and not Reduced to a Straw Man. And Counters to the Humanist View should be Included. Though in this Case I'd prefer it to simply be Removed since they don;t Serve any Purpose. Wikipedia Already has Articles on these Argukents, which explain them in Better and More Accurate Ways, and they do not serve to Explain Humanism in This Aetivle, but Rather are an Attack on Theism.
This is the Entire Humanism and Religion Section.
"Humanism and religion
Humanism is a naturalistic philosophy—it rejects gods, angels, immortal souls, and all supernatural phenomena. The universe is natural and can be studied by science.[89] While opposition to the various forms of theism might come from many philosophical or historical domains, the most convincing argument in terms of public opinion is naturalism. Historical arguments fail to convince the public because historical research is often open to interpretation.[90] For similar reasons, large parts of the population are unconvinced by arguments based on aesthetics (classical literature touches human souls more than holy scriptures) or ethics (religion's history on slavery, gay rights, racism).[89] Driven by the successes of science and technology, naturalistic arguments gain prominence in public opinion.[91]
On the other hand, traditional arguments for the existence of God are falling short. The ontological argument (roughly, that God exists because we can think of him) lacks empirical evidence, and seemingly lacks understanding of reality. The cosmological argument (God as the necessary first cause) also doesn't prove God's existence since other causes, or prime movers (physical entities, mass, energy, or something else) might have been the cause of the universe. The teleological argument (or argument from design) has been eliminated by Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection. However, the failure of rational arguments to prove God's existence does not prove God's non-existence.[92] A more popular cause of religious belief is personal experience—which is also problematic, because personal experiences are vague and subject to interpretation, and wishful thinking might also lead the way to desired conclusions.[93]
While humanism was founded as antithetic to religious establishments, religious views are not totally incompatible with humanism. Many deists, for example (such as Mary Wollstonecraft, Voltaire, Thomas Paine), had views resonating with a humanistic approach to life—since (for deists) God does not interfere with our daily life or give commands, they can espouse a humanistic perspective.[94] Also, many humanists have an anthropological interest in religions—how they evolved, matured, affect morality, and other features of the human condition.[95]"
Compare this o the Critisism Section where the Bulk of The Critism is basically that Humanism is a form of Christianity.
"Criticism
Criticism of humanism focuses on its adherence to human rights, which some critics have further claimed are "Western". Critics claim humanist values are becoming a tool of Western moral dominance, which is a form of neo-colonialism leading to oppression and a lack of ethical diversity.[155] Other critics argue humanism is an oppressive philosophy because it is not free from the biases of the white, heterosexual males who shaped it.[156]
Anthropology professor Talal Asad sees humanism as a project of modernity and a secularized continuation of Western Christian theology. In Asad's view, just as the Catholic Church passed the Christian doctrine of love to Africa and Asia while assisting in the enslavement of large parts of their population, humanist values have at times been a pretext for Western countries to expand their influence to other parts of the world to humanize "barbarians".[157] Asad has also argued humanism is not a purely secular phenomenon but takes from Christianity the idea of the essence of humanity.[158] Asad is not optimistic Western humanisms can incorporate other humanistic traditions such as those from India and China without subsuming and ultimately eliminating them.[159]
Sociology professor Didier Fassin sees humanism's focus on empathy and compassion rather than goodness and justice as a problem. According to Fassin, humanism originated in the Christian tradition, particularly the Parable of the Good Samaritan, in which empathy is universalized. Fassin also claims humanism's central essence, the sanctity of human life, is a religious victory hidden in a secular wrapper.[160]
History professor Samuel Moyn attacks humanism for its advocacy of human rights. According to Moyn, in the 1960s, human rights were a declaration of anti-colonial struggle but during the 1970s, they were transformed into a utopian vision, replacing the failing utopias of the 20th century. The humanist underpinning of human rights transforms them into a moral tool that is impractical and ultimately non-political. He also finds a commonality between humanism and the Catholic discourse on human dignity.[161]"
It is also not Hard to Find Criticism of Humanism. And it'd be Nice of Christian Criticism of Humanism was included. Especially given how Anti-Christian This Artcle is. I'd also Like to see Islamic Critisism of Humanism that isn't "Its another form of Christianity".
This Article claims Conservatives support Christian values, and thus are not Coompatible with Humanism. Which is just False. It Depicts Humanists as Progressives and Christians as Conservatives. It makes Outright value Judgements on Social Positions. I'd also like to have a More Neutral and Nuanced View of Humanist beliefs. This Article Demands We accept that what Humanists say about Themselves and how They Describe The World and their beliefs are an unquestionable Truth. But its not.
Why, for example, must I Agree that Humanism is not a form of Religion? Why should I accept that People are leaving Religion because Religion promoted Slavery and Bigotry and Racism? Am I supposed to Accept that Humanists did not promote these Things? Am I supped to Think all Religious people did? Am i really supposed to Thank Humanism for The Islamic tolerance and Advancements in the Middle Ages? As if Islam does not have these merits? Am I supposed to just Accept that Immanuel Kant promoted Rationalism? What of The Critique of Pure Reason he Wrote?
Am I really supposed to just Accept that Conservatives Reject Individualism and the Liberals Accept it?
Am i supposed to just Blindly Accept that Humanists Books written to Promote Humanism are Entirely unbiased and You don't Need Any Other Source to Write a Humanism Article, even for The Criticism page? And how Humanists Describe Christianity or other Religions is Accurate? Didn't Steven Law Write The Evil God Challenge? Isn't He an Anti-Theist? Isn't A. C. Grayling an Anti-Theist? Why should their Views on how Wonderful Humanism is and How Terrible Religion is, especially How Terrible The Christian Religion is, be seen as some Inviolable Truth?
The Article is a Bad Joke. And it needs to be Delt with.
SKWills ( talk) 09:35, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
The article reflects what contemporary academic Reliable Sources are saying. Article moslty relies on books as The oxford handbook of Humanism, The Wiley Blackwell Handbook of Humanism and other academic level, peer reviewed articles. Cinadon 36 11:12, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
SKWills (
talk) 11:42, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
There is a current RFC on Talk:Astrology regarding the neutrality of the lede. 5.151.22.143 ( talk) 12:59, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Astrology is fake ya know 88.110.165.143 ( talk) 23:39, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
I am a contibutor to Wikipedia - but never again. The Wikipedia article on the movie 2000 Mules - /info/en/?search=2000_Mules - that can not be editted - is such an absurdly partisan hit job on the movie that I will not fund this level of lying. The movie speaks for itself and anyone could draw their own conclusions. Instead, it is nothing but a partisan political hit job.
Goodbye Wikipedia. It'll never get another dollar from me. Hope it goes broke for converting itself to being a partisan political organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Screwwiko ( talk • contribs) 14:00, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
I've noticed a... troublesome running thing about pages pertaining to animals, animal agriculture, and animal agriculture...
So I was on the Beef page and noticed that the page claimed that beef (and meat in general) have a huge negative environmental impact and make up most greenhouse gas emissions and would significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions if everyone stopped eating beef and meat in general. This claim has proven to be exaggerated and agriculture (both plant and animal) only makes up about 10% of greenhouse gas emissions [30] [31]. Multiple sources used in the article clearly had a pro-vegan bias, including use of an opinion piece of a citation..
Now that's just one article. But I went looking further and found some more... disturbing pro-vegan and pro-animal rights biases on tons of pages...
Ethics of eating meat, Carnism, Psychology of eating meat, among tons of other articles, clearly have an agenda on pushing veganism and animal rights, plus PETA is often used as a source despite the fact that the organization has actively been involved in misinformation campaigns (such as the "milk causes autism" thing). Then I found the WP:Animal rights project, ostensibly meant to educate readers about the concept of animal rights, but is clearly made to push an agenda instead. WP:ADVOCACY comes to mind in regards to this. Greyhound 84 ( talk) 23:37, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
that the majority of crops are grown solely to feed livestock."
noticed that the page claimed that beef (and meat in general) have a huge negative environmental impact- This is not actually controversial. What's controversial is the "what do we do about it" part.
make up most greenhouse gas emissions- It doesn't say that, at least not the version I'm looking at. It says "Beef has a high environmental impact, being a primary driver of deforestation with the highest greenhouse gas emissions of any agricultural product", which seems pretty accurate.
would significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions if everyone stopped eating beef and meat in general- this isn't wrong. It's oversimplified both in terms of massively scaling up replacements and the various socioeconomic considerations, but it's not wrong. More importantly, it's an opinion that an awful lot of people have expressed. We should not say, in Wikipedia's voice, that "if everyone stopped eating meat, it would fix climate change," but we can present strategies reliable sources have presented and we can highlight areas that contribute significantly to climate change (areas where there's room to make changes all the better).
Ethics of eating meat, Carnism, Psychology of eating meat, among tons of other articles, clearly have an agenda on pushing veganism and animal rights- A subject like carnism is predicated on there being cognitive dissonance between people's fondness for animals and being ok with eating them. Of course it sounds like it's pushing an "animal rights POV" -- because that's what it's about. With any of these articles, however, we should present ideas in rough proportion to the way reliable sources write about them, which bring me to the most important bit:
Wikipedia appeals to authority by using "X claims that..." formulations, which is laughable (contested claims should precisely be attributed to their originators rather than stated in wikivoice), and
Wikipedia gives prominence to fringe POVs or uses below-MEDRS-quality sources, which is certainly a problem but not limited to vegan-adjacent topics by any means. As far as I know, MEDRS-sloppiness is not slanted towards pro-veganism either, and your posts here so far failed to convince me of that. Tigraan Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 14:19, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
After reading the Postcolonialism article, it is my opinion that the section on Ireland is a blatant example of failing to comply with the encyclopedia's standards of neutrality.
First and most importantly, a review of the postcolonial discourses in Irish scholarship indicates that there's been a back and forth dialogue between literary critics (say, Joycean scholars) and who we would normally think of as "mainstream" historians, with the majority of the latter opposing the idea that 20th Century Ireland could be conceived as a "postcolonial" society. We can see historians pushing back against this theory at least as early as 1990 [40]. In the Oxford handbook of modern Irish history published 2015, it was much the same story (p.516 [41]). The only thing that actually changed in 25+ years of scholarship is that all the steam had left this debate by the time the Oxford Handbook was published.
In light of all this, it should come as little surprise that the Ireland section in this article was almost entirely sourced to 'Men of Letters' (ie, scholars of literature) while the dominant view of the historians has been left out with no indication to readers that this subject is controversial. By my count there were only two sources that could be qualified as mainstream historians of the subject -Liam Kennedy and Stephen Howe -but the both of these scholars explicitly reject postcolonialism (specifically as the theory has been applied to Ireland, which may require further context), and were thus misquoted in this section as defending statements they do not endorse.
I'm trying to be as brief as possible so ask for more info if needed. Jonathan f1 ( talk) 21:00, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
What I think I should do right now is state my whole case in full with sources and then back away so other editors can comment. I want to cover as much as possible so please bear with me. I should probably also leave a message on the talk page of that article directing editors' attention over here.
What is most striking when you review the postcolonial critiques is that every single one of these historians cited here and on the article page, without exception, writes in very generalized terms about the views of historians on the postcolonial question (they are not merely writing about their own personal opinions or research). And they’ve been remarkably consistent on this point for more than 30 years.
In 1990, Brian Walker wrote,
"In recent years, in the field of Irish literary criticism, much emphasis has been placed on setting Irish writing in its historical context, particularly its political and social context. This emphasis, however, has sometimes produced simplistic approaches to Irish history, and has ignored the new understanding that historians have of our past. One such questionable view is the analysis which describes Ireland as either ‘colonial’ or ‘postcolonial’. In what follows it will be argued that this approach is incorrect, and any understanding based on it will be misleading. A more accurate and more helpful approach is to set Ireland, both north and south, in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, in its European context." [44]
In 1993 we have Liam Kennedy writing,
Historians of Ireland, with the notable exception of writers in the "green" marxist tradition, have generally found colonial concepts of limited or little value in charting the course of social and economic change in Ireland after 1800.
[45]
This piece by Kennedy was cited in the Ireland section of the article, but the editor misstated Kennedy's views (more on this below).
In 2005 Shaun Richards writes,
Prior to developing a postcolonial reading of [Brian Friel's] plays it is necessary to acknowledge some significant problems in reading his work through what might be described as an unreflective application of postcolonial theory. As noted above, the legitimacy of colonial/postcolonial readings of Ireland is refuted by historians. (p. 268
[46])
In 2015, in a review of the Oxford handbook of modern Irish history, Mary Daly of UCD cites Stephen Howe on colonial/postcolonial theory (from the historian's perspective):
"..the early writings about Ireland from a post-colonial perspective — mainly by literary scholars — which attracted considerable criticism from historians, have been superseded by ‘a fast-growing literature’, which pays attention to ‘complexity and nuance’." (p.516
[47])
In the Fall of 2020, in a panel discussion on "Decolonising Irish history" (a cross-disciplinary project that's still ongoing), historian Ian McBride (Oxford) made the point that,
"When we turn to Ireland, of course the idea of decolonising Irish history divides into two: And that's because the Irish think of Empire as something that was done to them, while historians increasingly think of Empire as something the Irish did to other peoples." (commentary begins at 14 mins
[48]).
What's also significant about this is that these historians all specialize in different areas of Modern Irish history (Liam Kennedy, for example, is an economic historian, while Brian Walker's research focuses mainly on Modern Irish political history), and yet they all independently agree with each other.
Earlier I mentioned that colonialism/postcolonialism in Ireland has non-European implications, that literary critics sustain the application of this theory to readings of Ireland by systematically removing the Irish out of Europe and placing them in the position of Africans, Indians or Native Americans. For the postcolonial period in Ireland (post-1921) the analogy then frames Ireland's economic and social position in the context of overseas colonies that had gained independence from European powers (countries that are often referred to as 'Third World').
In the Ireland section of this article you will read comparisons between the Irish and the indigenous peoples of the Americas. At end of the first paragraph the editor writes,
"Many scholars have drawn parallels between: the economic, cultural and social subjugation of Ireland, and the experiences of the colonized regions of the world[61]"
Citation 61 is the Liam Kennedy article I cited at the beginning. Except Kennedy never makes any comparison to "colonized regions of the world" (read "non-European").
The whole point of Kennedy's piece was that it was a refutation of the postcolonialist claim that the economic status of southern Ireland at the time of partition was on par with "third world countries". And he does this by publishing a range of economic metrics showing that Ireland's economic development during the independence/partition period was on level with European norms, and very far removed from the "third world." At one point he describes the analogies between "internal" European colonies and overseas colonies like "Namibia" as "nonsense strutting on theoretical stilts." (p. 115 [49])
But readers wouldn't know this reading the article, would they? What this editor likely did was cherry-pick the parts of Kennedy's analysis where he is framing the position of the postcolonialists, right before he challenges them. But the fact that Kennedy challenged this supposition is not mentioned in this section (why cite Kennedy at all if you're not going to publish his views?)
The only other historian cited in this section was Stephen Howe, but here, too, readers are given no indication that Howe has been one of the most vocal critics of Irish postcolonialism. Jonathan f1 ( talk) 20:56, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Reliable sources show that Beergate emerged as a controversy out of debates about Partygate, and continues to have that context. Both refer to allegations about earlier events, the first disclosed and questioned was the Durham event which did not develop into a controversy until around nine months later when taken up as a response to Partygate allegations. At Talk:Beergate#Partygate's significance? discussion was derailed by personal attacks, at Talk:Beergate#Relationship to Partygate I put together sources which were dismissed by DeFacto, who made unsourced claims that "Partygate is one thing, Beergate is another. The two involve different places, different people, different police forces, different circumstances, and have almost nothing in common other than the two leaders have been accused of breaking Covid lockdown regulations, and both denied the allegations with similar defences. To knit them together, in the way you appear to be trying to do, is total OR with no basis in the reliable sources". In a series of edits DeFacto then drastically restructured the article out of date sequence to imply that the article is about Durham police investigations rather than the emergence of the controversy, which was demoted to a section near the end of the article. In my view this contravenes NPOV Article structure policy. Layouts are now being discussed under Talk:Beergate#Article structure. Input will be welcome. . . dave souza, talk 13:28, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
I have proposed to move the Living with COVID-19 article to Endemic management of COVID-19. Please see the related discussion, more input would be appreciated. SmolBrane ( talk) 23:36, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
It is a well-known fact that "comfort women" have two opinions: "licensed prostitutes" and "sex slaves." However, in the current article, the first paragraph says "Comfort women or comfort girls were women and girls forced into sexual slavery by the Imperial Japanese Army… and editor is eliminating the "licensed prostitutes" claim on this basis. To maintain neutrality, this paragraph should be changed to, for example, "Comfort women or comfort girls were women and girls to provide sexual services to the Imperial Japanese Army.... The discussion on both sides regarding this rewrite has been exhausted on Talk. I believe that this article violates 5P2. Eyagi ( talk) 05:13, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
It is a well-known fact that "comfort women" have two opinions: "licensed prostitutes" and "sex slaves."
That may be true in a technical sense, but the vast majority were forcibly prostituted by Japan during the time period in question. The two "sides" are no where equal or even close.
Zaathras (
talk) 03:27, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Dispute over whether a particular claim should be stated in the narrative voice of the article vs. specifically attributed as the view of a particular scholar:
vs.
with other wordings of course being possible; several have been suggested. I'm a party to the dispute, so I'll leave it at this here. You can look at the recent history of the article and at Talk:Book_of_Daniel#Over-strong_assertion. - Jmabel | Talk 02:39, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Christians consider the resurrection of Jesus to be the cornerstone of their faith (see 1 Corinthians 15) and the most important event in history.[49]
Comments are welcome here. An editor is arguing that our article is politically biased against the North American Man/Boy Love Association. They also made edits to the article itself, which were reverted, but then they tagged it. Crossroads -talk- 04:51, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Your comments welcome at Talk:United_States_foreign_aid#Morality NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 01:17, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
On Nader Shah's Article in Azeri language, Nader Shah is introduced as the king of "Azerbaijan, Turkistan, Iran and India":
Nadir şah Əfşar ( fars. نادر شاه; Nâdir şâh) 22 oktyabr 1688, Dərgəz, Rəzəvi Xorasan ostanı – 19 iyun 1747, Qoçan, Rəzəvi Xorasan ostanı) — Azərbaycan, Türküstan, İran və Hindistanın şahı (1736–1747) və türksoylu əfşarlar sülaləsinin banisi.
which is a clear falsification of history, as he has always been known as the king of Iran/Persia:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Nadir-Shah
There are numerous pieces of historical evidence to support this fact.
Moreover, in a more absurd piece of misinformation, Michael Axworthy's book on Nader Shah named " the Sword of Persia" has been translated as "the Sword of the East":
"Hərbi nailiyyətlərinə görə bəzi tarixçilər ona "Şərqin qılıncı", "Şərqin Napoleonu" və "İkinci Makedoniyalı İsgəndər" kimi ləqəblər veriblər."
I corrected these false information as follows:
https://az.wikipedia.org/?title=Nadir_%C5%9Fah_%C6%8Ff%C5%9Far&oldid=6528735
But the corrections were immediately reverted by @ Dancewithdevil, sadly. LieDetector98 ( talk) 21:02, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Editors are invited to comment at the following RfC: Talk:TERF#RfC: Oxford English Dictionary. Crossroads -talk- 18:06, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
This article on the city of Hebron /info/en/?search=Hebron#CITEREFCohen1985 seems to be skewed in the direction of the Arab population. Among other things, Jewish residents are constantly referred to only as settlers, when some of them had homes there (until their massacre and expulsion) for many thousands of years. In addition, the language used to describe the ongoing 'civil unrest' is notably slanted, see below:
A violent episode occurred on 2 May 1980, when 6 yeshiva students died, on the way home from Sabbath prayer at the Tomb of the Patriarchs, in a grenade and firearm attack. The event provided a major motivation for settlers near Hebron to join the Jewish Underground. On July 26, 1983, Israeli settlers attacked the Islamic University and shot three people dead and injured over thirty others.
Look at the difference in the language here: "A violent episode occurred" - as if it happened, with no one causing it-- on 2 May 1980, when 6 yeshiva students died - instead of were murdered--, on the way home from Sabbath prayer at the Tomb of the Patriarchs, in a grenade and firearm attack-- atack by whom? No responsibility is attributed, it just happened.
Then: " On July 26, 1983, Israeli settlers attacked the Islamic University and shot three people dead and injured over thirty others." -- here, the settlers attacked and shot. On reviewing other articles on the subject, I discovered that the Hebron Mayor mentioned in the article ["Hebron mayor Mustafa Abdel Nabi invited the Christian Peacemaker Teams to assist the local Palestinian community in opposition to what they describe as Israeli military occupation, collective punishment, settler harassment, home demolitions and land expropriation."] was one of those actually convicted of the Yeshiva students' murder noted above, but he was released in an Israeli prisoner exchange and is now honored by his community, when he should be in jail for murder.
In fact, upon further reading here, I also note that this paragraph has much more of a passive voice when discussing what Arabs did to Jews and even observers: "Over the period of the First Intifada and Second Intifada, the Jewish community was subjected to attacks by Palestinian militants, especially during the periods of the intifadas;" ' which saw--which saw?? ' 3 fatal stabbings and 9 fatal shootings in between the first and second Intifada (0.9% of all fatalities in Israel and the West Bank) and 17 fatal shootings (9 soldiers and 8 settlers) and 2 fatalities from a bombing during the second Intifada, and thousands of rounds ' fired on it from the hills--from the hills? the land shot them? ' above the Abu-Sneina and Harat al-Sheikh neighbourhoods. 12 Israeli soldiers ' were killed '--by? Why do all of the Jewsih references say "X did this" but the arab ones say "oh, it happened to them? (Hebron Brigade commander Colonel Dror Weinberg and two other officers, 6 soldiers and 3 members of the security unit of Kiryat Arba) in an ambush. Two Temporary International Presence in Hebron observers were killed by Palestinian gunmen in a shooting attack on the road to Hebron --at least here it says who killed them, but it's still a passive voice.
Review your articles if you really want to be neutral. 2601:C8:C200:E130:90BC:7714:BE49:B937 ( talk) 21:52, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Most articles on diplomatic relations between countries (and even some non-countries) follow the Country-Country relations convention (per WP:NDESC), except for Cross-Strait relations (which should be Taiwan–China relations). There have been discussions about this since 2008 [50], and there was a few move discussion [51], but the closer (H/T Natg 19) did not clarify how WP:COMMONNAME should apply (per Blubabluba9990's comments). I recently attempted to rename the page Taiwan–China Cross-Strait relations, which I thought was a good compromise, but it was reverted (H/T Derek1022). Should I request a Move Review or create another Move Request? ScrumptiousFood ( talk) 17:59, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
For instance Asiya and Moses. Apologies if this has been hashed out before. So far as I can see, we only have the person infobox to use, but that aside, should they state unequivocally items such as birth place, place of death, and in the case of Moses nationality? Historically there were no Israelites at the time Moses is said to have existed. Doug Weller talk 15:56, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek has been pushing his or her point of view rather than a neutral one on the Donetsk People's Republic–Russia relations and Luhansk People's Republic–Russia relations articles mass removing blocks of information and claiming these article don't meet notability requirements and has been trying to redirect the articles. He has been constantly been reverted each time and this back and forth has been going on for a while. It seems he wants the article to go away as in deleted, but is not willing for some reason take it to Afd which would be the right place to take it if the articles merit deletion or could end up being redirected.
Marek has been adding the phrase "puppet states" in the lead in both articles and claiming that the Financial Times and op-ed article from The Washington Post support the inclusion of this. But yet none of those articles make mention of both the DPR and LPP by name. And an op-ed piece is not a reliable source unless "are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." But this is not the case when it's been added to these articles.
Marek has been adding template notices to both articles claiming there is a GNG, neutrality, and synthesis issues. On the talk pages, there is a bit more detail of this issue on the DPR–Russia relations talk page. Even claiming that my edit was nothing but an excuse to revert which is not true.
I noticed this first when Marek redirected the LPR relations article to Luhansk People's Republic#Recognition and international relations which I reverted. On the DPR article this has been going on since July 13 which started all of this where in his own edit summaries he states:
On LPR-Russia relations:
That is not what the NPOV policy states. If Marek is right that we should not engage in fiction which is the existence of the DPR and LPR then we should do away with Donetsk People's Republic–South Ossetia relations since these are two states that are largely unrecognized and viewed as Russian puppet states. Matter of fact we should do away with all the articles listed on Template:Foreign relations of Abkhazia and Template:Foreign relations of South Ossetia since both viewed as a puppet states and thus their relations with Russia articles should be removed because it's clearly fiction it seems.
Marek is trying to do away with these articles without seeking consensus from other editors on a Afd or start an Rfc. I've decided not to undo his latest revert on both articles because that would go nowhere and reach into a never-ending edit war. WikiCleanerMan ( talk) 20:36, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
The user Adakiko is repeatedly deleting clear information - that no British homeless people were offered sponsorship from the vilage of Oakhill despit this being obvious from their own very cited article. Via 78 70 161 206 ( talk) 10:15, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
IMO one of the main NPOV forms and POV methods at articles is using wiki rules and guidelines to promulgate a differential standard of what gets into an article and what doesn't. Either tending to keep favorable and mainstream material out and negative material in or vice versa depending on the topic of the article. Somethings the smaller scale cases are more useful because they are simpler without numerous other complicating factors and I think that this is one of those. My concern about the outcome is secondary.
At the Foundation for Economic Education (which is described as a conservative libertarian think tank) article "Editor #1" added this text: "In 2018, the organization hosted its annual Foundation for Economic Education Conference (FEECon) in Atlanta, Georgia, gathering more than 1,000 attendees." and provided two sources for the material. One was a 800+ word article ( https://semo.edu/news/2018/06/eight-students-travel-to-atlanta-for-annual-foundation-for-economic-education-conference-feecon/ ) on the Southeast Missouri State University web site covering the conference and the participation of some of their students in it. The second was a short article in the Atlanta Downtown website ( https://www.atlantadowntown.com/do/feecon-2019 )briefly describing the event. Editor #2 took it out, editor #3 (me) put it back in, and editor #2 took it out again. The rationales for removal were/are:
The actual points as made are in the edit summaries and at Foundation for Economic Education#NPOV Issues
For me the outcome is secondary but I would request a review of the 5 rationales whether any or all of them are grounds for exclusion at this point. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 00:19, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks everyone! North8000 ( talk) 12:48, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Would like to get consensus one way or the other on the appropriateness of using the word "claim" (as opposed to the Wikipedia-recommended use of more neutral terms such as "said" or "stated") in this edit where, following WP's guidelines here, I replaced "claim" with "stated" in this article but Horse Eye's Back objects to my edit. I am coming to this forum because failure to satisfy WP:CLAIM is failure to satisfy WP:NPOV because of the bias it introduces, as noted in the WP:NPOV policy here.
I made several attempts at reaching agreement, including 3 clear edit summaries pointing to the policies being broken, namely, this edit (fails WP:CLAIM), this one (fails WP:SECONDARY), and this one (fails WP:BURDEN). After Horse Eye’s restored the illegitimate word "claim" twice, I also held 3 rounds of discussions with him here, but they were not successful.
In addition to the 3 policy violations above, the entire statement with the word "claim" in it is also in a violation of WP:COPYVIO, for it was copied verbatim from the newspaper article cited but without providing the required quotation marks. For comparison, the original newspaper article cited at the end of that statement reads,
Not including the quotation marks has the additional effect of giving the false impression that the statement is a generally-accepted fact (which it is not) and not someone’s opinion (which it is). The statement is the opinion of the article’s writer; it is not fact. I wrote the other editor here that the statement, as it stood with the "claim" word there, was presenting an opinion as a fact. But, still, the editor went off on a tangent here and questioned me when the burden of proof was on him, for he is the editor restoring material in conflict with WP:CLAIM.
IAE, after 3 rounds of discussion here, the editor still failed here to provide a convincing reason for overriding WP policy to permit his use of "claim" in place of WP’s suggested neutral term "stated" ( WP:NPOV). Wikipedia's policy here is clear, that we shouldn't edit in such a way as to "call the credibility of an individual's statement (here, Scott Ritter’s statement) into question". That is, we don't know (and, for that matter, neither does the author) if the FBI did or did not hound Ms. Marina, so we should not present Scott Ritter’s statement as a "claim" but simply leave it as a statement, and this is accomplished by the use of the replacement word "stated".
In an attempt to help him keep his statement there with his preferred "claim" word intact, I went as far as suggesting to Horse's Eye here 4 different ways how he could bring his statement into compliance, but he refused all of them here. For example, I proposed to Horse Eye's Back that one way we could keep the statement with the word "claim" in it, was if he could provide cites from other sources that also used the word "claim", but once again he came back empty-handed here. He could not find one single additional source that made the same "claim" allegation, and his only "leg to stand on" was the one single source by the one single author in the one single article given in the cite.
Given Horse's Eye failure to find even a single other source, but still attempting to reach a compromise, I even proposed to him here that perhaps the statement could be rephrased from
This rewording would have made it clear that the "claim" part was the opinion of the author and not a consensus of journalists or historians at large. However, he still refused to compromise here.
So, I ask the community to provide your thoughts on the justification as to whether or not the statement should be (a) kept in its current form, should be (b) adjusted to instead read "stated", or (c) should be eliminated entirely for lacking additional validating secondary sources.
BTW, Kleinpecan was also involved in the very first restoring of that questionable content and he, too, failed to comply with WP:BURDEN when replied to here.
Regards, Mercy11 ( talk) 07:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
To say that someone asserted or claimed something can call their statement's credibility into question, by emphasizing any potential contradiction or implying disregard for evidence. We might say that for fringe (or even false) claims, e.g. "astrologers claim to divine personality traits from the movements of stars", but without reason to think that claim is fringe, I think you're correct to say that it is better to go with stated.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 90 | ← | Archive 95 | Archive 96 | Archive 97 | Archive 98 | Archive 99 | Archive 100 |
The section War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine#Human shields is being frequently crafted by a couple of editors to:-
This source is being used to claim " source reports it as fact. See WP:ALLEGED", but the source appears to be quoting and summarizing statements provided by Ukrainian civilians, mainly a Ukrainian schoolteacher named Svitlana Bryhinets.
I believe the allegations by the Russian armed forces, covered by reliable sources, [5] should be preserved since Azov Battalion's claims are being mentioned for alleging Russia of using chemical weapons. [6]
Civilians from South Africa and Bangladesh have said that they were used as human shields by Ukrainian forces. This has got coverage from undoubtedly reliable sources like:
Moodley said she witnessed first-hand Ukrainian soldiers and police using black and Indian people as human shields while they were under attack by Russians, shouting that their lives meant nothing. "They were using black people as human shields," she said.
We are being used as human shields. They don't even give us enough food to eat," lamented Malik.
This Washington Post article provides details on the use of civilian-populated areas as battlefield by Ukrainian forces. It quotes Canadian academic William Schabas, Human Rights Watch researcher Richard Weir and others.
At this moment, the section is clearly not complying with
WP:YESPOV which says "Wikipedia aims to describe disputes, but not engage in them'
" and failing to maintain
WP:NPOV by keeping it one-sided.
Georgethedragonslayer (
talk) 10:08, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
In general, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible. Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in the Wikipedia article." But here, upon checking the information we only find the claims from your "two" reliable sources to be based on the quotes provided by Ukrainian citizens, so they need to be properly attributed. You are similarly misreading the quotation by ignoring the sentence that "They imprisoned us with the sole purpose of using us as human shields," as the source is clearly talking about the "detention camp in Mykolaiv" which has been under Ukrainian control. Georgethedragonslayer ( talk) 08:32, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
Some protestors from the Maidan formed a predominantly female self-defence unit known as Unit 39, while in Eastern Ukraine there is reported to be a 25-member all female battalion based in the town of Krasny Luch. Some have suggested that the women have been recruited on the Eastern side as human shields; a Kiev news agency reported Donetsk leaders as saying 'no one will shoot at separatists if they are women'.
Women played a key role in providing supplies to family members who were effectively trapped on Ukrainian military bases in Crimea. Some went so far as to act as human shields, protecting Ukrainian troops during the invasion.
I don't know about TimesLIVE (what used to be a free tabloid from South Aftica) but I wouldn't call The Daily Star "undoubtedly reliable". It publishes a lot of sensationalist stories and garbage. Maybe not up there with DailyMail but maybe something like Express UK. Regardless, both of these sources "report" on claims that have not gotten coverage in any other main sources. If you search for "Russia Ukraine human shields" (or "Ukraine Russia human shields") you have to click through like 15+ pages of search results of "Russia is using human shields" before you find these stories. Someone (the editors trying to add this nonsense) went to a lot of trouble to find *something*, anything, that would serve as an excuse for them to write "both Russia and Ukraine are doing it". It's textbook POV pushing with false balance.
And in fact the story in the Star is just dubious. The individuals involved were in some detention camp "ran by the European Union" (sic) in the town of Zhuravychi which is... in Western Ukraine close to the Polish border nowhere close to where any fighting took place. Yet they are making claims that "Russians have taken the city" or "Russian tanks rolling by" and are calling on "Russian authorities to come rescue them" (!!!). They claim to be "human shields" but... like I said, there's absolutely been no fighting happening where they're at. It turns out that they're in the camp because they entered Ukraine illegally after... confusing Ukraine with Russia and crossing the border, and it seems Ukraine didn't know what to do with them ( [15]). It seems efforts were being made to repatriate them but it's not like you can just let a bunch of foreign dudes go wandering around a country that just got invaded and there's a war going on. Apparently these efforts weren't taking fast enough to to their liking. The claims about being "human shields" are pretty obviously hyperbolic exaggerations at best.
If you think that the above is on par with putting carriages with children on your tanks as you launch attacks then YOU are the one with a POV problem. In fact, this gross distortion right here illustrates nicely what the actual problem is on the article, and how desperately some people are trying to "both sides" the stories of war crimes that are coming out (sad truth is that one side is responsible for overwhelming majority of war crimes that've occurred and saying anything other than that fact is a clear breach of WP:NPOV and even WP:NOTHERE). Volunteer Marek 01:05, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
Article /info/en/?search=General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy is clearly full of problems, but apparently one user treats this article as holy and reverts changes. This includes talk page info. User has multiple accounts (as you can see that one user edited the other user's user page) which he uses to spread his agenda. Here's someone complaining about not having the endurance to keep fighting with the user: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy&oldid=786509167#Non_neutral It's from 2017 and the issues persist. We have many people attempting to fix the mistakes of one person—you know, the way wikipedia is supposed to work. But, this guy has been getting away with a spin on the article for ages-- 2604:2D80:DE11:1300:5D41:23B2:3C8B:39DC ( talk) 12:03, 8 June 2022 (UTC)
I found this article on a list of articles needing a copy edit, and indeed, one or more of the authors was clearly not a native English speaker, based on a lot of minor idiomatic tells. It wasn’t so bad that an original was needed though, nor did I find one. I think I have taken care of the English, and have removed that tag.
It does seem however to have been written from a Turkish point of view, particularly with reference to Cyprus, and in a couple of places it refers to “terrorists” (Kurds? Greeks?)
So....I think it could use some attention from people more familiar than I with the geopolitics and history of the region. I myself have no horse in this race and was merely there as the machine translation whisperer. Nor does there currently seem to be a particular dispute. It’s a new article, and obviously a notable topic.
@ StellarNerd: Elinruby ( talk) 23:09, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
This article is inherently quite controversial; for those who haven't followed the news, actor Johnny Depp won a defamation case against his ex-wife, actress Amber Heard, where she was found liable for making false statements that she was the victim of domestic abuse. Distilled, the main dispute is as follows:
Overall there are walls of text to wade through on the article talk; the most recent section heading, Talk:Depp v. Heard#Coming to an actual consensus for the "Reactions" section, gives a reasonable taste. Resolution through bludgeoning seems unlikely. Ovinus ( talk) 05:55, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
"Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.") I conducted searches google news searches for an appropriate period, from June 1 (the day of the verdict) to June 12 (the day before the search) which now display:
In writing the above I revisited my searches and found some different search result reading and have added note on the Depp v. Heard page to say:
Full disclosure, the results for the news searches on google for June 1-12 that I'm now finding are: 29,900 results for Depp Heard trial 5,720 results for Depp Heard trial MeToo This is on the same stated methodology that I mentioned earlier that, "On the results page you can only see the result numbers by selecting the text around and under the date and copying and pasting somewhere else." Something somewhere has glitched but my search based argument for WP:Due seems to have dissipated.
This search methodology was something that we regularly used when working with the Islamic State pages but I hadn't previously come across results variations, not least like this.
Greg Kaye 07:19, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
"Legal experts considered that Depp's chances of winning in the US were weaker than in the UK citing strong freedom of speech protections in the US."Later, when edit the internal link into I'd put this text, I had a real brain fart and mixed up the US and the UK with the result of the following edit edit [24] and, in the same text as I'd previously written, it then said
"Legal experts considered Depp's chances of winning to be better in the US than the UK."I do my best with editing, try to scrupulously keep my edits to NPOV and have done things like being the first to edit back a #MeToo reference into the article after another editor had blanked content with all the others. I think that the lack of diffs being presented here is suggestive that the accusations are nonsense. Greg Kaye 11:36, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
A dispute has arisen over the use of a totalitarian-era source used to claim the demographic primacy of one ethnic group over another [25] [26]. This is a high visibility country level article. Khirurg ( talk) 15:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
Wikipedia says that both Hawaii and new jersey are the 47th largest state. That can't be — Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.134.112.215 ( talk) 15:54, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Does this sentence in Uyghur genocide meet weight: "A former Chinese police detective, exiled in Europe, revealed to CNN in 2021 details of the systematic torture of Uyghurs in detention camps in Xinjiang, acts in which he had participated, as he had feared his own arrest had he dissented." [ "Chinese whistleblower exposes torture of Uyghur prisoners in CNN interview", 5 October 2021.]
In the interview with CNN presenter Wolf Blitzer, a man using a pseudonym, dressed in the uniform of an inspector (3rd class) of the People's Police of the People's Republic of China, and disguised with a covid mask and dark sunglasses, claims to have participated in torture at the instructions of his superiors.
The interview was reported in The Times and The Telegraph, but I could find no coverage in other major mainstream reliable media, or any follow-up stories on CNN.
Given the lack of attention paid to this interview, I don't think it is significant to the topic, which has received widespread coverage. There are lots of red flags here: the lack of widespread coverage, the lack of corroboration and the fact that the disguise would not actually work.
TFD ( talk) 00:31, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
— Ⓜ️hawk10 ( talk) 01:54, 20 June 2022 (UTC)A former Chinese police detective, exiled in Europe, revealed to CNN in 2021 details of the systematic torture of Uyghurs in detention camps in Xinjiang, acts in which he had participated, and the fear of his own arrest had he dissented while in China.
revealed [...] details"). The sources (including the USHMM), from the US, UK, and Taiwan, might be completely reliable for most things, but they generally follow their government's line on China. Relations between those countries and China are at a new low, and during a "cold war" it's common for every false or exaggerated report from a refugee to be reported as news. Maybe this report is accurate, and maybe it's not. NightHeron ( talk) 08:52, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Over the past couple of weeks there has been a large amount of information added to Anti-Russian sentiment by a single user. Everything appears to be sourced, but I'm not convinced it's presented neutrally. I'd like to solicit the views of this noticeboard to let me know if I'm over-reacting. A collection of the edits (several difs) can be seen here, here, and here.
A few lines which concerned me:
Biased media coverage, as well as Russian actions such as the Second Chechen War, a Russian reaction to eastward NATO expansion and Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections contributed to anti-Russian sentiment
United Kingdom limited how much Russian nationals are allowed to save on bank accounts. Banking industry considered the restriction to violate UK equality laws, which forbid discrimination by nationality.
A mismatch between U.S. rhetoric about promoting democratic reforms in Russia and actual U.S. actions and policy has been said to cause deep resentment among Russians, helping Russian propaganda to construct a narrative of U.S. malign interference.
— Czello 21:28, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
Some analysts have argued that official Western rhetoric and journalism about Russian actions abroad have contributed to anti-Russian sentiment after the dissolution of Soviet Union in 1991, besides justifiable disapproval of Russian actions such as the Second Chechen War and reaction to NATO expansion. More recently, Russian interference in the 2016 United States election was proven by the investigation, however the press has been criticized for repeatedly covering unconfirmed and later discredited allegations of collusion between Donald Trump and Russia for years.-- PaulT2022 ( talk) 00:20, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
The Entire Article may also be a Copyright Violation as it Quotes Verbatim from Books on Secular Humanist. Which is the problem. It is Definitely also One in Which a Conflict of Interest exists with The Editor.
Here is The Link to The Article.
The Article basically Reads like an Advertisement trying to Convert You to Humanism. It has Glowing Things to say about it, disparages Christianity and Islam, and even The Criticism Page takes The Critic of Humanism from Books by Humanist Authors Who want to promote Humanism, and say Nonsense things like;
"Criticism of humanism focuses on its adherence to human rights, which some critics have further claimed are "Western"."
Seriously, The Criticism Section basically has fewer Critics of Humanism than The Humanism and Religion Section has of Theism and of Christianity. Which it offers No Counter to. It is Clearly one Sided and Biased.
It also Passes off Strawman Versions of the Existence of God as Genuine, and Attacks them, then claims their Failures are Why People become Humanist. Like Claiming The Ontological Argument is basically saying God Exists because We can Think of Him. That is not The Ontological Argument. That is a Ridiculous Strawman of The Ontological Argument. And Darwin did not Overturn The Argument From Deign. The Claims are Baseless. No Effort to Offer the Other Side is made. It just Declares them Failures and presents them ad a reason people are Choosing Humanism. If these Arguments are present, they should be Presented as they Really are and not Reduced to a Straw Man. And Counters to the Humanist View should be Included. Though in this Case I'd prefer it to simply be Removed since they don;t Serve any Purpose. Wikipedia Already has Articles on these Argukents, which explain them in Better and More Accurate Ways, and they do not serve to Explain Humanism in This Aetivle, but Rather are an Attack on Theism.
This is the Entire Humanism and Religion Section.
"Humanism and religion
Humanism is a naturalistic philosophy—it rejects gods, angels, immortal souls, and all supernatural phenomena. The universe is natural and can be studied by science.[89] While opposition to the various forms of theism might come from many philosophical or historical domains, the most convincing argument in terms of public opinion is naturalism. Historical arguments fail to convince the public because historical research is often open to interpretation.[90] For similar reasons, large parts of the population are unconvinced by arguments based on aesthetics (classical literature touches human souls more than holy scriptures) or ethics (religion's history on slavery, gay rights, racism).[89] Driven by the successes of science and technology, naturalistic arguments gain prominence in public opinion.[91]
On the other hand, traditional arguments for the existence of God are falling short. The ontological argument (roughly, that God exists because we can think of him) lacks empirical evidence, and seemingly lacks understanding of reality. The cosmological argument (God as the necessary first cause) also doesn't prove God's existence since other causes, or prime movers (physical entities, mass, energy, or something else) might have been the cause of the universe. The teleological argument (or argument from design) has been eliminated by Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection. However, the failure of rational arguments to prove God's existence does not prove God's non-existence.[92] A more popular cause of religious belief is personal experience—which is also problematic, because personal experiences are vague and subject to interpretation, and wishful thinking might also lead the way to desired conclusions.[93]
While humanism was founded as antithetic to religious establishments, religious views are not totally incompatible with humanism. Many deists, for example (such as Mary Wollstonecraft, Voltaire, Thomas Paine), had views resonating with a humanistic approach to life—since (for deists) God does not interfere with our daily life or give commands, they can espouse a humanistic perspective.[94] Also, many humanists have an anthropological interest in religions—how they evolved, matured, affect morality, and other features of the human condition.[95]"
Compare this o the Critisism Section where the Bulk of The Critism is basically that Humanism is a form of Christianity.
"Criticism
Criticism of humanism focuses on its adherence to human rights, which some critics have further claimed are "Western". Critics claim humanist values are becoming a tool of Western moral dominance, which is a form of neo-colonialism leading to oppression and a lack of ethical diversity.[155] Other critics argue humanism is an oppressive philosophy because it is not free from the biases of the white, heterosexual males who shaped it.[156]
Anthropology professor Talal Asad sees humanism as a project of modernity and a secularized continuation of Western Christian theology. In Asad's view, just as the Catholic Church passed the Christian doctrine of love to Africa and Asia while assisting in the enslavement of large parts of their population, humanist values have at times been a pretext for Western countries to expand their influence to other parts of the world to humanize "barbarians".[157] Asad has also argued humanism is not a purely secular phenomenon but takes from Christianity the idea of the essence of humanity.[158] Asad is not optimistic Western humanisms can incorporate other humanistic traditions such as those from India and China without subsuming and ultimately eliminating them.[159]
Sociology professor Didier Fassin sees humanism's focus on empathy and compassion rather than goodness and justice as a problem. According to Fassin, humanism originated in the Christian tradition, particularly the Parable of the Good Samaritan, in which empathy is universalized. Fassin also claims humanism's central essence, the sanctity of human life, is a religious victory hidden in a secular wrapper.[160]
History professor Samuel Moyn attacks humanism for its advocacy of human rights. According to Moyn, in the 1960s, human rights were a declaration of anti-colonial struggle but during the 1970s, they were transformed into a utopian vision, replacing the failing utopias of the 20th century. The humanist underpinning of human rights transforms them into a moral tool that is impractical and ultimately non-political. He also finds a commonality between humanism and the Catholic discourse on human dignity.[161]"
It is also not Hard to Find Criticism of Humanism. And it'd be Nice of Christian Criticism of Humanism was included. Especially given how Anti-Christian This Artcle is. I'd also Like to see Islamic Critisism of Humanism that isn't "Its another form of Christianity".
This Article claims Conservatives support Christian values, and thus are not Coompatible with Humanism. Which is just False. It Depicts Humanists as Progressives and Christians as Conservatives. It makes Outright value Judgements on Social Positions. I'd also like to have a More Neutral and Nuanced View of Humanist beliefs. This Article Demands We accept that what Humanists say about Themselves and how They Describe The World and their beliefs are an unquestionable Truth. But its not.
Why, for example, must I Agree that Humanism is not a form of Religion? Why should I accept that People are leaving Religion because Religion promoted Slavery and Bigotry and Racism? Am I supposed to Accept that Humanists did not promote these Things? Am I supped to Think all Religious people did? Am i really supposed to Thank Humanism for The Islamic tolerance and Advancements in the Middle Ages? As if Islam does not have these merits? Am I supposed to just Accept that Immanuel Kant promoted Rationalism? What of The Critique of Pure Reason he Wrote?
Am I really supposed to just Accept that Conservatives Reject Individualism and the Liberals Accept it?
Am i supposed to just Blindly Accept that Humanists Books written to Promote Humanism are Entirely unbiased and You don't Need Any Other Source to Write a Humanism Article, even for The Criticism page? And how Humanists Describe Christianity or other Religions is Accurate? Didn't Steven Law Write The Evil God Challenge? Isn't He an Anti-Theist? Isn't A. C. Grayling an Anti-Theist? Why should their Views on how Wonderful Humanism is and How Terrible Religion is, especially How Terrible The Christian Religion is, be seen as some Inviolable Truth?
The Article is a Bad Joke. And it needs to be Delt with.
SKWills ( talk) 09:35, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
The article reflects what contemporary academic Reliable Sources are saying. Article moslty relies on books as The oxford handbook of Humanism, The Wiley Blackwell Handbook of Humanism and other academic level, peer reviewed articles. Cinadon 36 11:12, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
SKWills (
talk) 11:42, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
There is a current RFC on Talk:Astrology regarding the neutrality of the lede. 5.151.22.143 ( talk) 12:59, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Astrology is fake ya know 88.110.165.143 ( talk) 23:39, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
I am a contibutor to Wikipedia - but never again. The Wikipedia article on the movie 2000 Mules - /info/en/?search=2000_Mules - that can not be editted - is such an absurdly partisan hit job on the movie that I will not fund this level of lying. The movie speaks for itself and anyone could draw their own conclusions. Instead, it is nothing but a partisan political hit job.
Goodbye Wikipedia. It'll never get another dollar from me. Hope it goes broke for converting itself to being a partisan political organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Screwwiko ( talk • contribs) 14:00, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
I've noticed a... troublesome running thing about pages pertaining to animals, animal agriculture, and animal agriculture...
So I was on the Beef page and noticed that the page claimed that beef (and meat in general) have a huge negative environmental impact and make up most greenhouse gas emissions and would significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions if everyone stopped eating beef and meat in general. This claim has proven to be exaggerated and agriculture (both plant and animal) only makes up about 10% of greenhouse gas emissions [30] [31]. Multiple sources used in the article clearly had a pro-vegan bias, including use of an opinion piece of a citation..
Now that's just one article. But I went looking further and found some more... disturbing pro-vegan and pro-animal rights biases on tons of pages...
Ethics of eating meat, Carnism, Psychology of eating meat, among tons of other articles, clearly have an agenda on pushing veganism and animal rights, plus PETA is often used as a source despite the fact that the organization has actively been involved in misinformation campaigns (such as the "milk causes autism" thing). Then I found the WP:Animal rights project, ostensibly meant to educate readers about the concept of animal rights, but is clearly made to push an agenda instead. WP:ADVOCACY comes to mind in regards to this. Greyhound 84 ( talk) 23:37, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
that the majority of crops are grown solely to feed livestock."
noticed that the page claimed that beef (and meat in general) have a huge negative environmental impact- This is not actually controversial. What's controversial is the "what do we do about it" part.
make up most greenhouse gas emissions- It doesn't say that, at least not the version I'm looking at. It says "Beef has a high environmental impact, being a primary driver of deforestation with the highest greenhouse gas emissions of any agricultural product", which seems pretty accurate.
would significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions if everyone stopped eating beef and meat in general- this isn't wrong. It's oversimplified both in terms of massively scaling up replacements and the various socioeconomic considerations, but it's not wrong. More importantly, it's an opinion that an awful lot of people have expressed. We should not say, in Wikipedia's voice, that "if everyone stopped eating meat, it would fix climate change," but we can present strategies reliable sources have presented and we can highlight areas that contribute significantly to climate change (areas where there's room to make changes all the better).
Ethics of eating meat, Carnism, Psychology of eating meat, among tons of other articles, clearly have an agenda on pushing veganism and animal rights- A subject like carnism is predicated on there being cognitive dissonance between people's fondness for animals and being ok with eating them. Of course it sounds like it's pushing an "animal rights POV" -- because that's what it's about. With any of these articles, however, we should present ideas in rough proportion to the way reliable sources write about them, which bring me to the most important bit:
Wikipedia appeals to authority by using "X claims that..." formulations, which is laughable (contested claims should precisely be attributed to their originators rather than stated in wikivoice), and
Wikipedia gives prominence to fringe POVs or uses below-MEDRS-quality sources, which is certainly a problem but not limited to vegan-adjacent topics by any means. As far as I know, MEDRS-sloppiness is not slanted towards pro-veganism either, and your posts here so far failed to convince me of that. Tigraan Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 14:19, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
After reading the Postcolonialism article, it is my opinion that the section on Ireland is a blatant example of failing to comply with the encyclopedia's standards of neutrality.
First and most importantly, a review of the postcolonial discourses in Irish scholarship indicates that there's been a back and forth dialogue between literary critics (say, Joycean scholars) and who we would normally think of as "mainstream" historians, with the majority of the latter opposing the idea that 20th Century Ireland could be conceived as a "postcolonial" society. We can see historians pushing back against this theory at least as early as 1990 [40]. In the Oxford handbook of modern Irish history published 2015, it was much the same story (p.516 [41]). The only thing that actually changed in 25+ years of scholarship is that all the steam had left this debate by the time the Oxford Handbook was published.
In light of all this, it should come as little surprise that the Ireland section in this article was almost entirely sourced to 'Men of Letters' (ie, scholars of literature) while the dominant view of the historians has been left out with no indication to readers that this subject is controversial. By my count there were only two sources that could be qualified as mainstream historians of the subject -Liam Kennedy and Stephen Howe -but the both of these scholars explicitly reject postcolonialism (specifically as the theory has been applied to Ireland, which may require further context), and were thus misquoted in this section as defending statements they do not endorse.
I'm trying to be as brief as possible so ask for more info if needed. Jonathan f1 ( talk) 21:00, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
What I think I should do right now is state my whole case in full with sources and then back away so other editors can comment. I want to cover as much as possible so please bear with me. I should probably also leave a message on the talk page of that article directing editors' attention over here.
What is most striking when you review the postcolonial critiques is that every single one of these historians cited here and on the article page, without exception, writes in very generalized terms about the views of historians on the postcolonial question (they are not merely writing about their own personal opinions or research). And they’ve been remarkably consistent on this point for more than 30 years.
In 1990, Brian Walker wrote,
"In recent years, in the field of Irish literary criticism, much emphasis has been placed on setting Irish writing in its historical context, particularly its political and social context. This emphasis, however, has sometimes produced simplistic approaches to Irish history, and has ignored the new understanding that historians have of our past. One such questionable view is the analysis which describes Ireland as either ‘colonial’ or ‘postcolonial’. In what follows it will be argued that this approach is incorrect, and any understanding based on it will be misleading. A more accurate and more helpful approach is to set Ireland, both north and south, in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, in its European context." [44]
In 1993 we have Liam Kennedy writing,
Historians of Ireland, with the notable exception of writers in the "green" marxist tradition, have generally found colonial concepts of limited or little value in charting the course of social and economic change in Ireland after 1800.
[45]
This piece by Kennedy was cited in the Ireland section of the article, but the editor misstated Kennedy's views (more on this below).
In 2005 Shaun Richards writes,
Prior to developing a postcolonial reading of [Brian Friel's] plays it is necessary to acknowledge some significant problems in reading his work through what might be described as an unreflective application of postcolonial theory. As noted above, the legitimacy of colonial/postcolonial readings of Ireland is refuted by historians. (p. 268
[46])
In 2015, in a review of the Oxford handbook of modern Irish history, Mary Daly of UCD cites Stephen Howe on colonial/postcolonial theory (from the historian's perspective):
"..the early writings about Ireland from a post-colonial perspective — mainly by literary scholars — which attracted considerable criticism from historians, have been superseded by ‘a fast-growing literature’, which pays attention to ‘complexity and nuance’." (p.516
[47])
In the Fall of 2020, in a panel discussion on "Decolonising Irish history" (a cross-disciplinary project that's still ongoing), historian Ian McBride (Oxford) made the point that,
"When we turn to Ireland, of course the idea of decolonising Irish history divides into two: And that's because the Irish think of Empire as something that was done to them, while historians increasingly think of Empire as something the Irish did to other peoples." (commentary begins at 14 mins
[48]).
What's also significant about this is that these historians all specialize in different areas of Modern Irish history (Liam Kennedy, for example, is an economic historian, while Brian Walker's research focuses mainly on Modern Irish political history), and yet they all independently agree with each other.
Earlier I mentioned that colonialism/postcolonialism in Ireland has non-European implications, that literary critics sustain the application of this theory to readings of Ireland by systematically removing the Irish out of Europe and placing them in the position of Africans, Indians or Native Americans. For the postcolonial period in Ireland (post-1921) the analogy then frames Ireland's economic and social position in the context of overseas colonies that had gained independence from European powers (countries that are often referred to as 'Third World').
In the Ireland section of this article you will read comparisons between the Irish and the indigenous peoples of the Americas. At end of the first paragraph the editor writes,
"Many scholars have drawn parallels between: the economic, cultural and social subjugation of Ireland, and the experiences of the colonized regions of the world[61]"
Citation 61 is the Liam Kennedy article I cited at the beginning. Except Kennedy never makes any comparison to "colonized regions of the world" (read "non-European").
The whole point of Kennedy's piece was that it was a refutation of the postcolonialist claim that the economic status of southern Ireland at the time of partition was on par with "third world countries". And he does this by publishing a range of economic metrics showing that Ireland's economic development during the independence/partition period was on level with European norms, and very far removed from the "third world." At one point he describes the analogies between "internal" European colonies and overseas colonies like "Namibia" as "nonsense strutting on theoretical stilts." (p. 115 [49])
But readers wouldn't know this reading the article, would they? What this editor likely did was cherry-pick the parts of Kennedy's analysis where he is framing the position of the postcolonialists, right before he challenges them. But the fact that Kennedy challenged this supposition is not mentioned in this section (why cite Kennedy at all if you're not going to publish his views?)
The only other historian cited in this section was Stephen Howe, but here, too, readers are given no indication that Howe has been one of the most vocal critics of Irish postcolonialism. Jonathan f1 ( talk) 20:56, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
Reliable sources show that Beergate emerged as a controversy out of debates about Partygate, and continues to have that context. Both refer to allegations about earlier events, the first disclosed and questioned was the Durham event which did not develop into a controversy until around nine months later when taken up as a response to Partygate allegations. At Talk:Beergate#Partygate's significance? discussion was derailed by personal attacks, at Talk:Beergate#Relationship to Partygate I put together sources which were dismissed by DeFacto, who made unsourced claims that "Partygate is one thing, Beergate is another. The two involve different places, different people, different police forces, different circumstances, and have almost nothing in common other than the two leaders have been accused of breaking Covid lockdown regulations, and both denied the allegations with similar defences. To knit them together, in the way you appear to be trying to do, is total OR with no basis in the reliable sources". In a series of edits DeFacto then drastically restructured the article out of date sequence to imply that the article is about Durham police investigations rather than the emergence of the controversy, which was demoted to a section near the end of the article. In my view this contravenes NPOV Article structure policy. Layouts are now being discussed under Talk:Beergate#Article structure. Input will be welcome. . . dave souza, talk 13:28, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
I have proposed to move the Living with COVID-19 article to Endemic management of COVID-19. Please see the related discussion, more input would be appreciated. SmolBrane ( talk) 23:36, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
It is a well-known fact that "comfort women" have two opinions: "licensed prostitutes" and "sex slaves." However, in the current article, the first paragraph says "Comfort women or comfort girls were women and girls forced into sexual slavery by the Imperial Japanese Army… and editor is eliminating the "licensed prostitutes" claim on this basis. To maintain neutrality, this paragraph should be changed to, for example, "Comfort women or comfort girls were women and girls to provide sexual services to the Imperial Japanese Army.... The discussion on both sides regarding this rewrite has been exhausted on Talk. I believe that this article violates 5P2. Eyagi ( talk) 05:13, 26 June 2022 (UTC)
It is a well-known fact that "comfort women" have two opinions: "licensed prostitutes" and "sex slaves."
That may be true in a technical sense, but the vast majority were forcibly prostituted by Japan during the time period in question. The two "sides" are no where equal or even close.
Zaathras (
talk) 03:27, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Dispute over whether a particular claim should be stated in the narrative voice of the article vs. specifically attributed as the view of a particular scholar:
vs.
with other wordings of course being possible; several have been suggested. I'm a party to the dispute, so I'll leave it at this here. You can look at the recent history of the article and at Talk:Book_of_Daniel#Over-strong_assertion. - Jmabel | Talk 02:39, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Christians consider the resurrection of Jesus to be the cornerstone of their faith (see 1 Corinthians 15) and the most important event in history.[49]
Comments are welcome here. An editor is arguing that our article is politically biased against the North American Man/Boy Love Association. They also made edits to the article itself, which were reverted, but then they tagged it. Crossroads -talk- 04:51, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Your comments welcome at Talk:United_States_foreign_aid#Morality NewsAndEventsGuy ( talk) 01:17, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
On Nader Shah's Article in Azeri language, Nader Shah is introduced as the king of "Azerbaijan, Turkistan, Iran and India":
Nadir şah Əfşar ( fars. نادر شاه; Nâdir şâh) 22 oktyabr 1688, Dərgəz, Rəzəvi Xorasan ostanı – 19 iyun 1747, Qoçan, Rəzəvi Xorasan ostanı) — Azərbaycan, Türküstan, İran və Hindistanın şahı (1736–1747) və türksoylu əfşarlar sülaləsinin banisi.
which is a clear falsification of history, as he has always been known as the king of Iran/Persia:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Nadir-Shah
There are numerous pieces of historical evidence to support this fact.
Moreover, in a more absurd piece of misinformation, Michael Axworthy's book on Nader Shah named " the Sword of Persia" has been translated as "the Sword of the East":
"Hərbi nailiyyətlərinə görə bəzi tarixçilər ona "Şərqin qılıncı", "Şərqin Napoleonu" və "İkinci Makedoniyalı İsgəndər" kimi ləqəblər veriblər."
I corrected these false information as follows:
https://az.wikipedia.org/?title=Nadir_%C5%9Fah_%C6%8Ff%C5%9Far&oldid=6528735
But the corrections were immediately reverted by @ Dancewithdevil, sadly. LieDetector98 ( talk) 21:02, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Editors are invited to comment at the following RfC: Talk:TERF#RfC: Oxford English Dictionary. Crossroads -talk- 18:06, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
This article on the city of Hebron /info/en/?search=Hebron#CITEREFCohen1985 seems to be skewed in the direction of the Arab population. Among other things, Jewish residents are constantly referred to only as settlers, when some of them had homes there (until their massacre and expulsion) for many thousands of years. In addition, the language used to describe the ongoing 'civil unrest' is notably slanted, see below:
A violent episode occurred on 2 May 1980, when 6 yeshiva students died, on the way home from Sabbath prayer at the Tomb of the Patriarchs, in a grenade and firearm attack. The event provided a major motivation for settlers near Hebron to join the Jewish Underground. On July 26, 1983, Israeli settlers attacked the Islamic University and shot three people dead and injured over thirty others.
Look at the difference in the language here: "A violent episode occurred" - as if it happened, with no one causing it-- on 2 May 1980, when 6 yeshiva students died - instead of were murdered--, on the way home from Sabbath prayer at the Tomb of the Patriarchs, in a grenade and firearm attack-- atack by whom? No responsibility is attributed, it just happened.
Then: " On July 26, 1983, Israeli settlers attacked the Islamic University and shot three people dead and injured over thirty others." -- here, the settlers attacked and shot. On reviewing other articles on the subject, I discovered that the Hebron Mayor mentioned in the article ["Hebron mayor Mustafa Abdel Nabi invited the Christian Peacemaker Teams to assist the local Palestinian community in opposition to what they describe as Israeli military occupation, collective punishment, settler harassment, home demolitions and land expropriation."] was one of those actually convicted of the Yeshiva students' murder noted above, but he was released in an Israeli prisoner exchange and is now honored by his community, when he should be in jail for murder.
In fact, upon further reading here, I also note that this paragraph has much more of a passive voice when discussing what Arabs did to Jews and even observers: "Over the period of the First Intifada and Second Intifada, the Jewish community was subjected to attacks by Palestinian militants, especially during the periods of the intifadas;" ' which saw--which saw?? ' 3 fatal stabbings and 9 fatal shootings in between the first and second Intifada (0.9% of all fatalities in Israel and the West Bank) and 17 fatal shootings (9 soldiers and 8 settlers) and 2 fatalities from a bombing during the second Intifada, and thousands of rounds ' fired on it from the hills--from the hills? the land shot them? ' above the Abu-Sneina and Harat al-Sheikh neighbourhoods. 12 Israeli soldiers ' were killed '--by? Why do all of the Jewsih references say "X did this" but the arab ones say "oh, it happened to them? (Hebron Brigade commander Colonel Dror Weinberg and two other officers, 6 soldiers and 3 members of the security unit of Kiryat Arba) in an ambush. Two Temporary International Presence in Hebron observers were killed by Palestinian gunmen in a shooting attack on the road to Hebron --at least here it says who killed them, but it's still a passive voice.
Review your articles if you really want to be neutral. 2601:C8:C200:E130:90BC:7714:BE49:B937 ( talk) 21:52, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Most articles on diplomatic relations between countries (and even some non-countries) follow the Country-Country relations convention (per WP:NDESC), except for Cross-Strait relations (which should be Taiwan–China relations). There have been discussions about this since 2008 [50], and there was a few move discussion [51], but the closer (H/T Natg 19) did not clarify how WP:COMMONNAME should apply (per Blubabluba9990's comments). I recently attempted to rename the page Taiwan–China Cross-Strait relations, which I thought was a good compromise, but it was reverted (H/T Derek1022). Should I request a Move Review or create another Move Request? ScrumptiousFood ( talk) 17:59, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
For instance Asiya and Moses. Apologies if this has been hashed out before. So far as I can see, we only have the person infobox to use, but that aside, should they state unequivocally items such as birth place, place of death, and in the case of Moses nationality? Historically there were no Israelites at the time Moses is said to have existed. Doug Weller talk 15:56, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek has been pushing his or her point of view rather than a neutral one on the Donetsk People's Republic–Russia relations and Luhansk People's Republic–Russia relations articles mass removing blocks of information and claiming these article don't meet notability requirements and has been trying to redirect the articles. He has been constantly been reverted each time and this back and forth has been going on for a while. It seems he wants the article to go away as in deleted, but is not willing for some reason take it to Afd which would be the right place to take it if the articles merit deletion or could end up being redirected.
Marek has been adding the phrase "puppet states" in the lead in both articles and claiming that the Financial Times and op-ed article from The Washington Post support the inclusion of this. But yet none of those articles make mention of both the DPR and LPP by name. And an op-ed piece is not a reliable source unless "are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." But this is not the case when it's been added to these articles.
Marek has been adding template notices to both articles claiming there is a GNG, neutrality, and synthesis issues. On the talk pages, there is a bit more detail of this issue on the DPR–Russia relations talk page. Even claiming that my edit was nothing but an excuse to revert which is not true.
I noticed this first when Marek redirected the LPR relations article to Luhansk People's Republic#Recognition and international relations which I reverted. On the DPR article this has been going on since July 13 which started all of this where in his own edit summaries he states:
On LPR-Russia relations:
That is not what the NPOV policy states. If Marek is right that we should not engage in fiction which is the existence of the DPR and LPR then we should do away with Donetsk People's Republic–South Ossetia relations since these are two states that are largely unrecognized and viewed as Russian puppet states. Matter of fact we should do away with all the articles listed on Template:Foreign relations of Abkhazia and Template:Foreign relations of South Ossetia since both viewed as a puppet states and thus their relations with Russia articles should be removed because it's clearly fiction it seems.
Marek is trying to do away with these articles without seeking consensus from other editors on a Afd or start an Rfc. I've decided not to undo his latest revert on both articles because that would go nowhere and reach into a never-ending edit war. WikiCleanerMan ( talk) 20:36, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
The user Adakiko is repeatedly deleting clear information - that no British homeless people were offered sponsorship from the vilage of Oakhill despit this being obvious from their own very cited article. Via 78 70 161 206 ( talk) 10:15, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
IMO one of the main NPOV forms and POV methods at articles is using wiki rules and guidelines to promulgate a differential standard of what gets into an article and what doesn't. Either tending to keep favorable and mainstream material out and negative material in or vice versa depending on the topic of the article. Somethings the smaller scale cases are more useful because they are simpler without numerous other complicating factors and I think that this is one of those. My concern about the outcome is secondary.
At the Foundation for Economic Education (which is described as a conservative libertarian think tank) article "Editor #1" added this text: "In 2018, the organization hosted its annual Foundation for Economic Education Conference (FEECon) in Atlanta, Georgia, gathering more than 1,000 attendees." and provided two sources for the material. One was a 800+ word article ( https://semo.edu/news/2018/06/eight-students-travel-to-atlanta-for-annual-foundation-for-economic-education-conference-feecon/ ) on the Southeast Missouri State University web site covering the conference and the participation of some of their students in it. The second was a short article in the Atlanta Downtown website ( https://www.atlantadowntown.com/do/feecon-2019 )briefly describing the event. Editor #2 took it out, editor #3 (me) put it back in, and editor #2 took it out again. The rationales for removal were/are:
The actual points as made are in the edit summaries and at Foundation for Economic Education#NPOV Issues
For me the outcome is secondary but I would request a review of the 5 rationales whether any or all of them are grounds for exclusion at this point. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 00:19, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks everyone! North8000 ( talk) 12:48, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
Would like to get consensus one way or the other on the appropriateness of using the word "claim" (as opposed to the Wikipedia-recommended use of more neutral terms such as "said" or "stated") in this edit where, following WP's guidelines here, I replaced "claim" with "stated" in this article but Horse Eye's Back objects to my edit. I am coming to this forum because failure to satisfy WP:CLAIM is failure to satisfy WP:NPOV because of the bias it introduces, as noted in the WP:NPOV policy here.
I made several attempts at reaching agreement, including 3 clear edit summaries pointing to the policies being broken, namely, this edit (fails WP:CLAIM), this one (fails WP:SECONDARY), and this one (fails WP:BURDEN). After Horse Eye’s restored the illegitimate word "claim" twice, I also held 3 rounds of discussions with him here, but they were not successful.
In addition to the 3 policy violations above, the entire statement with the word "claim" in it is also in a violation of WP:COPYVIO, for it was copied verbatim from the newspaper article cited but without providing the required quotation marks. For comparison, the original newspaper article cited at the end of that statement reads,
Not including the quotation marks has the additional effect of giving the false impression that the statement is a generally-accepted fact (which it is not) and not someone’s opinion (which it is). The statement is the opinion of the article’s writer; it is not fact. I wrote the other editor here that the statement, as it stood with the "claim" word there, was presenting an opinion as a fact. But, still, the editor went off on a tangent here and questioned me when the burden of proof was on him, for he is the editor restoring material in conflict with WP:CLAIM.
IAE, after 3 rounds of discussion here, the editor still failed here to provide a convincing reason for overriding WP policy to permit his use of "claim" in place of WP’s suggested neutral term "stated" ( WP:NPOV). Wikipedia's policy here is clear, that we shouldn't edit in such a way as to "call the credibility of an individual's statement (here, Scott Ritter’s statement) into question". That is, we don't know (and, for that matter, neither does the author) if the FBI did or did not hound Ms. Marina, so we should not present Scott Ritter’s statement as a "claim" but simply leave it as a statement, and this is accomplished by the use of the replacement word "stated".
In an attempt to help him keep his statement there with his preferred "claim" word intact, I went as far as suggesting to Horse's Eye here 4 different ways how he could bring his statement into compliance, but he refused all of them here. For example, I proposed to Horse Eye's Back that one way we could keep the statement with the word "claim" in it, was if he could provide cites from other sources that also used the word "claim", but once again he came back empty-handed here. He could not find one single additional source that made the same "claim" allegation, and his only "leg to stand on" was the one single source by the one single author in the one single article given in the cite.
Given Horse's Eye failure to find even a single other source, but still attempting to reach a compromise, I even proposed to him here that perhaps the statement could be rephrased from
This rewording would have made it clear that the "claim" part was the opinion of the author and not a consensus of journalists or historians at large. However, he still refused to compromise here.
So, I ask the community to provide your thoughts on the justification as to whether or not the statement should be (a) kept in its current form, should be (b) adjusted to instead read "stated", or (c) should be eliminated entirely for lacking additional validating secondary sources.
BTW, Kleinpecan was also involved in the very first restoring of that questionable content and he, too, failed to comply with WP:BURDEN when replied to here.
Regards, Mercy11 ( talk) 07:42, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
To say that someone asserted or claimed something can call their statement's credibility into question, by emphasizing any potential contradiction or implying disregard for evidence. We might say that for fringe (or even false) claims, e.g. "astrologers claim to divine personality traits from the movements of stars", but without reason to think that claim is fringe, I think you're correct to say that it is better to go with stated.