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Rand Paul ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
There is a sentence on Rand Paul's Wikipedia page that should be changed, due to obvious bias. The sentence currently reads:
"In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which falsely claims that masks are not effective".
I think it should read: "In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which (according to YouTube) falsely claims that masks are not effective."
If this sentence isn't changed, it demonstates a clear bias by Wikipedia about masks in general, as well as about the YouTube video being referenced. Neutral reporting demands that no judgement is made by the reporting entity. They can report that another entity has made a certain judgement, but they are not supposed to make one themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:4A:C801:2390:B034:A59C:E7AB:8DFE ( talk) 23:45, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
"In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which falsely claims that masks are not effective".The sentence does not state any rationale in Wikipedia's voice. The sentence says three (maybe four) things:
If there is doubt regarding whether or not he claimed that masks are not effective, it is not reasonable. AlexEng( TALK) 02:19, 23 December 2021 (UTC)In the video, Mr. Paul says: “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection.” Later in the video, he adds, “Trying to shape human behavior isn’t the same as following the actual science, which tells us that cloth masks don’t work.”
What do RS say? Slatersteven ( talk) 18:41, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
There are multiple statements buried in that sentence (and keeping in mind that masks have only partial and variable effectiveness which means that such can be in context be termed both effective and ineffective)
The above are all extraordinary claims. Without even getting into NPOV, Both under WP:Verifiability and especially WP:BLP these would need very strong sourcing (which they don't have) to be in Wikipedia. Further, burying additional "slam" statements (via adjectives) in a sentence which is informing about a YouTube suspension is also bad practice and not informative. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 14:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
that Rand Paul claimed...masks are ineffective,
that such a claim is false, and
that...Rand Paul made a clearly false claim. I do not see why any of these three claims would in fact be extraordinary (and in the case of the second claim, it seems FRINGE to me to even propose that it is extraordinary). The NYT article clearly makes all three statements, and I see no reason that would not be sufficient verification for all three. Rand Paul was suspended from YouTube for making misleading medical claims, and WP should plainly follow the sources that sat this. Newimpartial ( talk) 17:45, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
... the senator said that “there’s no value” in wearing masks.
In fact, masks do work, according to the near-unanimous recommendations of public health experts.
In the video, Mr. Paul says: “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection.” Later in the video, he adds, “Trying to shape human behavior isn’t the same as following the actual science, which tells us that cloth masks don’t work.” In fact, masks do work, according to the near-unanimous recommendations of public health experts.That's what "in fact" means. It's a prepositional phrase establishing contrast with the previous statement, and it's often used to rebut claims in journalism. I'm flabbergasted that we apparently need to have a discussion on basic grammar to step through what is plainly written in the source.
Paul falsely claimed in the removed video, “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection," adding that “cloth masks don’t work."
Rand Paul’s false claim that masks don’t work
In the three-minute video Paul disputed the effectiveness of masks, which the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and medical experts around the world have recommended to limit the spread of the coronavirus.as well as
YouTube suspended U.S. Sen. Rand Paul for seven days on Tuesday and removed a video posted by the Kentucky Republican that claimed cloth masks don’t prevent infection, saying it violated policies on COVID-19 misinformation.
In the video, Paul, whose background is in ophthalmology, criticized the effectiveness of “over the counter” and cloth-based masks. “They don’t prevent infection,” he said at one point in the roughly three-minute video. “Trying to shape human behavior isn’t the same as following the actual science, which tells us that cloth masks don’t work.”
The New York Times reports that Paul false claimed, “most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection” in the video. Later in the video he claimed again that cloth masks don't work.and also
However, masks do work, according to health officials and scientists. The World Health Organization's policy says that fabric, non-medical masks can be used by the general public under the age of 60 and who do not have underlying health conditions.(Note the use of preposition to rebut a claim once again)
YouTube has suspended Republican Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky from uploading content for one week after he posted a video claiming most masks are ineffective in combatting COVID-19and also
Public health experts have said masks, even cloth masks, which Paul took particular issue with, offer protection against COVID-19 transmission, which in turn prevents infection. But Paul claimed in the video, "cloth masks don’t work," and that most over-the-counter masks “don’t prevent infection,” according to YouTube, which it said violated its policies against spreading COVID-19 medical misinformation.
novel conclusiondo you refer? I don't see anything stated in the current article text that goes beyond the (NYT) source provided. Newimpartial ( talk) 21:25, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm afraid, Masem, that you are simply wrong about this. Unless the statement that Paul falsely claims that masks are not effective
is disputed by some RS, it would be a violation of NPOV to attribute it to the New York Times. We don't attribute statements unless there is disagreement among reliable sources, or unless they employ value-laden LABELS (and prior discussions have not established that "falsely" is a value-laden label, in terms of policy).
Newimpartial (
talk) 19:14, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
YouTube suspended Sen. Rand Paul's account on Tuesday for posting a video claiming cloth face masks are ineffective against the coronavirus....
Paul falsely claimed in the removed video, “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection," adding that “cloth masks don’t work."[3] What you are suggesting is that we ignore that because you, personally, believe that the media is being too critical and want to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS by correcting that here. Even if you don't recognize it, that suggestion blatantly misrepresents the source for the purposes of inserting your personal POV into the article. The primary reason we have problems with NPOV writing on these articles is precisely because of errors like the one you are making here - editors who are unable to separate "what they believe the sources should say" from "what the sources say" and who therefore argue stridently that their POV language is required for NPOV. NBC and the NYT's wording is not critical - Paul is not being "criticized by the media" in the vague boogieman sense you are using here, and the fact that you felt the need to imply otherwise undermines your point by diving headfirst into WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS territory. The sources for this are objectively summarizing the broadly-accepted facts in and impartial neutral tone. Your suggestion, on the other hand, would crudely insert your POV into the article based solely on your personal gut disagreement with or distrust for those sources. -- Aquillion ( talk) 20:52, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
which is not something we know is true- this seems to me to raise the key point; WP is WP:NOTTRUTH, much as you would like for it to be so. We cannot put words in YouTube's mouth, but if reliable sources have done so (and none have not done so), we have no choice but to follow them. Any alternative would be a novel interpretation of the primary sources, which is what you gave offered above. Newimpartial ( talk) 22:43, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
are not effective, appears to be both accurate and well-sourced. Let's not wander into the weeds for no reason. Newimpartial ( talk) 19:09, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
In fact, masks do work, according to the near-unanimous recommendations of public health experts.NBC says that
YouTube suspended Sen. Rand Paul's account on Tuesday for posting a video claiming cloth face masks are ineffective against the coronavirus....
Paul falsely claimed in the removed video, “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection," adding that “cloth masks don’t work."[4] Politifact says that
YouTube and Twitter on Aug. 10 temporarily suspended accounts belonging to Sen. Rand Paul and Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene on grounds they violated the platforms’ policies against spreading COVID-19 misinformation.[5]. Many other sources say similar things. Without a source contradicting this it would be a clear WP:NPOV violation to frame it as YouTube's opinion (it would be representing an essentially uncontested fact as opinion), and it would be grossly misrepresenting the source (presenting this as merely YouTube's opinion when the source flatly says otherwise.) Suggesting that we could add
(according to YouTube)using that source is suggesting a shocking violation of WP:NPOV and WP:TONE. - Aquillion ( talk) 20:52, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
"In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video in which he falsely claimed that most masks are not effective".Losing precision/context can have the result of appearing as editorial bias/selective use of information, which does end up entering into NPOV-violating territory. However, once this is rectified I don't think it's necessary to attribute "falsely claimed" to YouTube, as there's a strong weight of RS which say his claim that most masks don't work is scientifically false. Jr8825 • Talk 21:35, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
"Paul falsely claimed in the removed video, "Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection," adding that "cloth masks don’t work""( NBC), is not the same as saying
"Paul falsely claimed masks don't work". This kind of inaccuracy matters when fighting the spread of misinformation, we want to ensure readers trust our content. Jr8825 • Talk 22:51, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Why do you even need the word falsely in there? Why not just say YouTube suspended Paul for claiming that masks don't work which violates their policies on COVID misinformation, the end. You dont need to attribute to YouTube what other expert sources say is true, and who YouTube relies on in determining their misinformation policy. But you also dont need to push in "falsely" either, it is just not necessary there. nableezy - 22:36, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
tantamount to altering published quotes- the whole project of this encyclopaedia depends on RS that paraphrase and even summarize the content of primary sources. Newimpartial ( talk) 19:40, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you think is going wrong, so here e.g. is NBC's discussion of YouTube's reasoning: "We removed content from Senator Paul’s channel for including claims that masks are ineffective in preventing the contraction or transmission of COVID-19, in accordance with our COVID-19 medical misinformation policies,"
NBC specifically describes the claims in question thus, Paul falsely claimed in the removed video, “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection," adding that “cloth masks don’t work."
The current version of our article reads, In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which falsely claims that masks are not effective
. I don't see any
WP:SYNTH there whatsoever.
Newimpartial (
talk) 20:11, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
WP:Ver and wp:nor establish a sourcing / sourcability requirement for inclusion, not a mandate or force for inclusion. Just because a source is generally OK does not mandate including what they wrote. For example, if they say that youtube said something that they didn't say. Or, if due to such reasons or others, such does not meet the even higher standards of WP:BLP. Saying that YouTube made a damning statement about Paul, and a statement that YouTube never made certainly is an extraordinary claim. North8000 ( talk) 20:00, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which falsely claims that masks are not effective. The reliable sources establish a sequence: Paul makes statements on YouTube which the RS document to be false; Paul is then suspended by YouTube under its misinformation policy. Our article text doesn't suggest that YouTube made any particular
statementabout the matter, so you seem to be making up a claim and then interpreting it as EXTRAORDINARY. Newimpartial ( talk) 20:20, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
he published a video which falsely claims that masks are not effective? That statement has been supported by multiple RS in this discussion, and contradicted by none. Newimpartial ( talk)
I also agree with Masem's rationale even though they are focusing on a different area than me. I think that Masem's main point is that the questioned statement blends both:
into the same sentence and in a way that implies that the "somebody else's assessment" was the reason given by YT for the 1 week suspension. And the a wiki editor doing such is synthesis/OR.
My different aspect is this. If you ask an expert "will this mask certainly prevent transmission of Covid", they will say "no" because it is only partially effective at that. So there are variable meanings of "effective" and under some of those saying "not effective" can be true. Which means that saying "not effective" is an arguable statement rather than a categorically false one. So Paul made an arguable statement, not a flatly false one. So a statement that he made a false statement is at best an extraordinary claim and under WP:BLP would need very strong sourcing (that it was a false statement). North8000 ( talk) 18:33, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Why can't the sentence be turned around, to avoid the potential inference that YouTube made a declaration as to the falsity of Paul's claim? That is, change:
In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which falsely claims that masks are not effective.
In August 2021, Paul published a video in which he falsely claimed that masks are not effective, after which he was suspended from YouTube for a week under their misinformation policy.
Does this address the concerns? 172.195.96.244 ( talk) 11:20, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
“We removed content from Senator Paul’s channel for including claims that masks are ineffective in preventing the contraction or transmission of COVID-19, in accordance with our COVID-19 medical misinformation policies,” YouTube said in a statement. “We apply our policies consistently across the platform, regardless of speaker or political views.”
In August 2021, Paul published a YouTube video that falsely claimed "that masks are ineffective in preventing the contraction or transmission of COVID-19."[r1][r2][r3+] YouTube took down the video and suspended Paul for a week under their COVID-19 misinformation policy.[r1][r3+]
(according to YouTube). This addition is not acceptable because RS does not emphasize YouTubes viewpoint, they explain the RS truth, not YouTube truth. While I could go back and forth in my head to decide whether or not I though Pauls comments arose to the level of saying "mask are ineffective", but that would be WP:OR. So I'm obligated to make this decision purely on whether or not RS said that Paul claimed masks as being ineffective. WaPo said this:
Rand Paul’s false claim that masks don’t work. ABC said this:
he posted a video claiming most masks are ineffective in combatting COVID-19. Politico said this:
In the video, Paul, whose background is in ophthalmology, criticized the effectiveness of “over the counter” and cloth-based masks. “They don’t prevent infection,” he said at one point in the roughly three-minute video. “Trying to shape human behavior isn’t the same as following the actual science, which tells us that cloth masks don’t work.”Some sources say strictly that Paul thinks masks are ineffective, but some others elaborate on how he said "most masks" or specified he was talking about over the counter masks and cloth ones. I think Wikipedia should follow suit. The sentence should read:
In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which falsely claims that most "over the counter" and cloth masks are not effective.Iamreallygoodatcheckers ( talk) 06:27, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
What counts as DUE when discussing how a politician voted to various legislation? I'm asking in context to a range of good faith edits made by Fenetrejones. The edits typically are in the form of person voted for/against a particular law and often cite sources that contain roll calls of votes like house.gov, govtrack.us, RollCall etc. They are also typically mass added thus most/everyone who voted for/against the bill in question had an edit (examples [8] [9] [10] [11]). Note that I don't question the accuracy of this information, only it's weight. How do we decide if it's UNDUE to list how a politician voted on an issue?
I would argue that at minimum we need a RS discussing the bill and discussing how the politician in question was significant in it's passage/non-passage. If an article concludes by saying "the following senators voted for/against this bill" then I would say that doesn't establish weight for inclusion in the senator/politician's BLP even if it might be due in an article about the bill. My view, backed by various RfCs, is that WEIGHT doesn't have reciprocity. That A is DUE in an article about B doesn't mean B is DUE in an article about A. As edited there appears to be no selection criteria why these specific bills were picked to be included in the various BLPs which means they may just be ones an editor is interested in. What standards should nominally apply? I think it is an important question in cases where there are mass additions since reverting many edits can look like hounding whereas reverting a single edit often is seen as simple, good faith editorial disagreement. Springee ( talk) 14:49, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Israel has been accused by three notable human rights organizations of committing the crime of apartheid in its treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories, those being B'tselem, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. We have an article Israel and the apartheid analogy which discusses this and other accusations directed against Israel regarding the crime of apartheid, but just regarding the three human rights groups, their accusations have been widely covered in reliable sources. For example:
Several users have claimed the any mention of this material in the
Israel article under the section on the occupied territories is a NPOV violation and
WP:UNDUE. At issue is the material removed in
this diff which includes a user
oddly placing a serious of {{
POV statement}}
tags within a direct quote. Do the source above establish weight to include this material quoted here?
Israel's treatment of the Palestinians within the occupied territories has drawn accusations that it is guilty of the crime of apartheid by human rights groups such as B'tselem, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, with the criticism extending in to its treatment of Palestinians within Israel as well. Israel rejects that it is guilty of the crime against humanity, saying that the claim peddles "lies, inconsistencies, and unfounded assertions that originate from well-known anti-Israeli hate organisations" while the Palestinians called the report a "detailed affirmation of the cruel reality of entrenched racism, exclusion, oppression, colonialism, apartheid, and attempted erasure that the Palestinian people have endured".
Does the removed material include appropriately the accusations and relevant responses? Or do these source not demonstrate that the accusations have sufficient weight to be included in our article? nableezy - 20:17, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
This article has been edited by admirers and critics of the 2nd Marquess of Sligo, who was (depending on which paragraph of the article you read) was either a champion of freedom or a greedy slave-owning barstard. -- Orange Mike | Talk 16:19, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
I've found that there are many Yazidi articles on enwiki that have fallen victim to Kurdish POV. The articles are about Yazidis who were born in Armenia. And Armenian Yazidis generally consider themselves a separate ethnic group. In Armenia, the Yazidis have been recognized as an independent ethnic group since 2002. Furthermore, their language is officially registered there with the name "Ezdiki" (Yazidi language). Yezidis are not Kurds ( talk) 20:59, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
Would some others mind taking a look at New South Wales Police Force strip search scandal as well as the related New South Wales Police Force strip search scandal (Freedom of Information releases), Issues relating to the use of drug detection dogs in New South Wales and New South Wales Police Force strip search scandal (Law Enforcement Conduct Commission investigations)? They're all covering the same subject and have been created by essentially the same person. The articles seem to rely heavily on primary sources as well as some user-generated sources like social media posts, etc., but there also does seem enough secondary coverage to perhaps justify at least a main article about the matter. One of my main concerns is whether the use of the word "scandal" may be undue since it's not clear whether that's how it's being reported by main media sources. There seems to lots of issues at play here so it might be a "scandal" in some sense, but not sure Wikipedia's voice should be used in this way. I'm bringing this up here for discussion because it involves multiple articles and I thought would be easier to discuss in one place, then on multiple article talk pages. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 00:14, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Maxorazon ( talk) 09:51, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
In this article flag of malaysia. In the designer section in flag of malaysia wikipedia page. at this wikipedia page. Malaysia flag is design by mohammad hamzah which is inspired and borrow 2 major design from johor flag and east india company flag. But this section say that malaysia flag design which is red and white stripes is from majapahit kingdom. Red and white stripes is from east india company flag. Because before malaysia indepence east india company flag is use in malaysia teritory under british rule. this section say east india company flag is from majapahit flag . I think this is not true. And this source for this section https://www.republika.co.id/berita/pw1udm385/getahgetih-majapahit-dwi-warna-hingga-bendera-malaysia this section source is from news web in indonesia language i think. I dont think we can use news web to become source. Is not book or international journal is news page. And I dont know how to read indonesian . But this wikipedia page is in english. So better use source in english language so the other editor can read too. And when i add in talk discussion my discussion is deleted and no one respond. I need third party editor to end this dispute. If can i need editor from england or united kingdom who know history about malaysia and east india company. This is the section.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tota negi ( talk • contribs) 10:10, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
An editor has repeatedly added a liink at the top of the Critique of work article to associate that page with the recent subreddit called R/antiwork, on which we have a separate article here. The "Critique of work" is a body of work that dates back to the Marxist writer Paul Lafargue over 100 years ago. The current subreddit is a separate and distinct topic that has recently been added to the Critique of work lead here]. The entire Critique of work page has been written by a single editor as a separate page rather than as part of the R/antiwork page.
How do others suggest sorting this out to avoid conflating the current online subreddit with the historical scholarship and polemic ? SPECIFICO talk 16:26, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
The article for Rheinmetall, Germany's largest defense contractor, has been sourced entirely to the firm's corporate website. User:RandomCanadian blanked most of the prose two weeks ago. I would like to put in some work this weekend to try to get it up to snuff. I think the content should be restored for the time being. Tagging Wikipedia:Nazi affiliation task force User:Shushugah, User:Ermenrich, User:asilvering, User:Ploni, User:buidhe. Schierbecker ( talk) 03:32, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
There's a merge request at Talk:Autism spectrum#Merger proposal; Outdated terminology/taxonomy. I'm not entirely sure if this is the best place for the request but it does have to do with a certain point of view and its incompatibility with WP:MEDRS. (I also recommend seeing: User talk:Wretchskull#'Stop edit warring and achieve consensus' (re: autism spectrum)). Thank you - Wretchskull ( talk) 20:04, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
The page Qatar and State Sponsored Terrorism looks very well sourced on the face value, but a careful examination of all statements and sources used to back them would reveal that this article is standing largely on falsified sources. It might have been started as a political attack and propaganda against the subject. The tone is largely tilted against the subject with several unsupported allegations.
It was started in 2015 with 24 sources, but all 24 sources were unverifiable as they all lead to dead end. The sources used to start the article contained single words while some were phrases as title of the sources but provided no further details such as the name of the publisher, date of publication, page number(s) (for printed or offline sources), the authors of the sources, and links (for online sources), ISSN or ISBN etc. For example, the sources only contained words such “Mendick” used 7 times, “Pecquet” used 4 times, “Dettmer” used 3 times in the article. Please see the first version of the article here [1] and scroll down to the references section for proper examination of the sources. The sources were completely unverifiable against the statements contained in the article, but how this article escaped proper vetting to emerge in public space and remained since 2015 is difficult to understand.
In all sections of the article, sources cited do not relate to the statements in the article. I am not a Wikipedia editor but I have often used Wikipedia as a starting point of my research due to quality sources it provides which serve as lead. But in this particular article the sources cited are largely misleading. What the creator and those who extensively edited this article did was taking random links, change the titles of the sources to reflect the statement it claims to support. A casual look at the citations would make readers believe that the sources cited are relevant to the article due to falsified titles (headlines) but when the source is visited, one only finds completely different titles and contents that are miles apart from the article’s focus.
Now look at the following statements in the article and the sources cited in the following section and subsections:
Almost or all sources cited in this subsection are non existent. Have a look at the paragraphs below and the sources cited:
“Abd al Rahman al Nuaymi, a Qatari citizen, worked as a go-between of ISIS's predecessor, Al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), with donors to AQI from Qatar. “More rumors about Qatar's alleged cooperation with ISIS affiliates surfaced in early 2015. On February 11, 2015 Sudan Tribune reported controversial statements by Yahia Sadam, an official of the Minni Minnawi Sudanese liberation movement who accused Qatar of endorsing the genocide perpetrated by Sudanese militiamen in Darfur by funneling money though the Sudanese branch of Qatar Charity, active in Darfur since 2010. Sadam claimed that Qatar Charity, which has purportedly signed a cooperation agreement with the Sudanese troops, was "building housing complexes in remote and isolated areas to harbor and train extremist groups". Those camps are believed to be hosting ISIS fighters, a concern voiced by attendees from the intelligence community at a March 2015 event at the United States Institute for Peace”. Now see the sources cited here [2] [3] [4]
In 2003, The New York Times wrote: "Private support from prominent Qataris to Al Qaeda is a sensitive issue that is said to infuriate George J. Tenet, the director of central intelligence. After the Sept. 11 attacks, another senior Qaeda operative, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who may have been the principal planner of the assault on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, was said by Saudi intelligence officials to have spent two weeks in late 2001 hiding in Qatar, with the help of prominent patrons, after he escaped from Kuwait."
Please check the source cited for the above statement in the article. It is not verifiable. And it leads nowhere. And gives no clue where the original source cited may be found.
Here is another one:
“Khalifa Muhammad Turki al-Subaiy and Abd al-Rahman bin Umayr al-Nuaymi are senior-level financiers of al-Qaeda. Al-Subaiy was a previous employee of the Qatar Central Bank. In 2014, U.S. Treasury Undersecretary for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence, David Cohen, announced that the two men were living freely in Qatar. Both men were on a worldwide terrorist blacklist.[4] The two men were tried and acquitted due to Qatari intelligence being unable to demonstrate evidence without "compromising its intelligence gathering capabilities" In response to Cohen's announcement and the release of the U.S. intelligence report, reporters from The Telegraph contacted Qatari officials. According to the Telegraph, "Qatar has refused to answer"
For the statement above, check carefully the sources cited in the article here [5]
Below are three lengthy paragraphs in the article, read and examine the sources cited for these paragraphs:
“At one time, Al-Nuaymi was the president of the Qatar Football Association. The U.S. report said that he sent more than 1.25 million British pounds per month to Al-Qaeda jihadist fighters in Iraq. He sent hundreds of thousands of pounds to fighters in Syria. The United States designated Al-Nuaymi as a terrorist in 2013. Britain sanctioned him in 2014. Al-Nuaymi is knowingly associated with Abd al-Wahhab Muhammad 'Abd al-Rahman Al-Humayqani, a Specially Designated Global Terrorist (SDGT) whom the US Treasury sanctioned in 2013 for his role as fundraiser and executive for al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP). The US Treasury claimed that in 2012 Al-Nuaymi supported financially a charity directed by Humayqani.[39] By exploiting his status in the charitable community, Humayqani allegedly raised funds and facilitated transfers from al-Qaeda supporters based in Saudi Arabia to Yemen.[39] Reportedly Humayqani had high level connections with al-Qaeda top operatives and often acted as an AQAP representative while meeting with Yemeni authorities. On behalf of AQAP, he allegedly recruited individuals for several murderous attacks in Yemen, and personally directed a "group of armed AQAP associates that intended to carry out attacks on Yemeni government facilities and institutions, including a Yemeni government building in al-Bayda Governorate". About ten months after being sanctioned by the U.S. Treasury, Nuaimi was also restrained from doing business in the UK.[38] Al-Subaiy and Al-Nuaymi have close ties to senior leaders in the Qatari government. Robert Medick, a reporter for The Telegraph's "Stop the Funding of Terror" campaign, wrote in 2014 that Qatar "turned a blind eye to terrorist financiers operating within their midst". According to the 9/11 Commission Report, Subayi also provided financial support to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a Pakistani al-Qaeda senior officer purported to be one of the architects of the 9/11 attacks.” [6]
Now let’s look at this subsection:
“Qatar has sponsored al-Qaeda's affiliate in Syria, the al-Nusra Front since 2013. The jihadist group, established within the framework of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi's plans for an Islamic State in the Levant, has parted ways from ISIS in 2013 due to leadership conflicts.[49] The group was designated as terrorist entity by the UN, the EU, Canada, the U.S., Israel, Hong Kong, Switzerland, and Australia. Nonetheless, Qatar has continuously supported it through ransom payments and fundraising campaigns as a strategic ally in Syria, committed to depose Syrian President Bashar al-Assad”.
Here are some of the sources cited for the statement above [7] [8] [9]
Below is another paragraph with another weighty statement with the sources cited here
“In addition to ransom payments, the Qatar government as well as Qatari citizens have sponsored large-scale fundraising campaigns to solicit "support for the procurement of weapons, food and supplies for al-Nusra in Syria" which have often relied on social media.[51] "Madid Ahl al-Sham", a fundraising campaign launched in 2013 and shut down by Qatari authorities only in 2015, became "one of the preferred conduits for donations intended for the group" [10]
This page no doubt was created in bad faith and the intention was to attack the subject. 1600-1700s ( talk) 07:25, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
References
Yet a quick review of the article [22] shows you are wrong. The full details for all those citations seem to be in the article as AndyTheGrump has already said. Frankly, even without reviewing, it was easy to guess you were probably wrong. The original article used some variant of WP:CITESHORT which is a valid albeit uncommon style on Wikipedia. Possibly the names of the sections and their locations should have been moved around, not sure but that's a minor issue. I'd note even if the article had used inline WP:Parenthetical referencing, while this is deprecated now, it wasn't then. More importantly even with the use of such a style, the further details are still provided (or should be for the style to be valid), it's just that we don't accept it on Wikipedia for various reasons. The citations are still as valid as they would be with an acceptable style, they just need to be modified to comply with our norms. And when you didn't notice the full details were in the article and so were spectacularly wrong about such a crucial detail I don't think it's surprising editors are reluctant to investigate your other claims further. Nil Einne ( talk) 06:11, 9 March 2022 (UTC)It was started in 2015 with 24 sources, but all 24 sources were unverifiable as they all lead to dead end. The sources used to start the article contained single words while some were phrases as title of the sources but provided no further details such as the name of the publisher, date of publication, page number(s) (for printed or offline sources), the authors of the sources, and links (for online sources), ISSN or ISBN etc.
I have limited experience with issues like this so please bear with me. It appears that there are divergent strategies emerging for the management of COVID, like the recent decisions by Sweden, Norway, and even in the UK, where the independent advisory committee still does not recommend vaccination in ages 5-11. Denmark has removed all mandates and restrictions including masks and booster shots. How this creates a problem is on articles like the Joe Rogan Experience, where Rogan's statements are described(by RSes, indeed) as misinformation or false, even though his opinions are comparable to the Scandinavian approaches—specifically on the subject of vaccinating children for COVID. I am certain there are many articles affected. I have not yet made additions on these pages(regarding the sources below); I think it would be better to front-run potential edit disputes with a discussion, and to have a harmonized discussion on the matter.
Sources that are divergent, just to list a select few:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-decides-against-recommending-covid-vaccines-kids-aged-5-12-2022-01-27/
https://apnews.com/7d45f190a96e4d22e62c40345a1c39b3
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/denmark-covid-restrictions/621482/
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-business-health-pandemics-united-nations-ca046d38f7e78ad7150a0a8d95d81433
--
SmolBrane (
talk) 20:19, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
@
SmolBrane: can you describe what part of the article you feel needs to change? Because AFAICT, neither
Joe Rogan nor
Joe Rogan Experience make any commentary on vaccinating children whether now or when you first posted
[23]
[24]. The only thing close is this part Rogan made false remarks about COVID-19 vaccines, in particular claiming that young, healthy people do not need to be vaccinated against the virus.
' and 'Part of the criticism was that there have been notable cases affecting young, healthy people.
' But it's clear from the cited sources that this is not referring to children. The example given by Rogan is "But if you’re like 21 years old, and you say to me, should I get vaccinated
". This is even quoted in a footnote in Joe Rogan although weirdly not Joe Rogan Experience.
Perhaps we could also quote what Rogan said in a footnote in the Experience article to make it clear that Joe Rogan is not referring to children, personally I don't see any harm in that. Although IMO even without a quotation, "young, healthy people" doesn't suggest children, it's not the way you'd normally refer to children, especially not 5-11 year olds. Rogan himself (as per our sources) said "if you're a healthy person, and you're exercising all the time, and you're young, and you’re eating well, like, I don't think you need to worry about this.
" which even without him having specified 21, is the way you might talk to a 21 year old, or maybe an older teen, but probably not the way you'd talk to a 14 year old let alone a 5-11 year old.
Per our source Rogan also
but this is not something we comment on.suggested that COVID-19 is not “statistically dangerous for children.”
“I can tell you as someone who has — both my children got the virus. It was nothing,” he continued. “I mean, I hate to say that if someone’s children died from this. I’m very sorry that that happened. I’m not in any way diminishing that. But I'm saying the personal experience that my children had with COVID was nothing.”
Thanks for the replies, evidently I don't have the time to re-address this. SmolBrane ( talk) 17:06, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
This matter seems to be emerging more clearly on the matter of herd immunity, please see my edit here: Talk:Great Barrington Declaration/Archive 6#Herd immunity – Watch this space, POV. Pinging editors here:@ Sumanuil, NadVolum, and Nil Einne:. Please see my related edit here [25] that appears to generate the type of POV fork I'm concerned about. SmolBrane ( talk) 17:04, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
There are few users who are making The Kashmir Files biased and despite many suggestions and request not adhering to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsnb07 ( talk • contribs) 00:42, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I realize this is a touchy subject, but User:Caltraser5 is tearing apart the Moscow article, putting the Ukrainian flag in lieu of the current infobox image, ect. I've tried reverted the Caltraser5's edits, citing NPOV, but the user has been engaging me in an edit war. // A Raider Like Indiana 03:09, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
An RfC has just been closed at Uyghur genocide which has resulted in the first sentence of the article stating that China is committing genocide in wikivoice, when RS indicate this is a highly difficult determination to make, and a controversial claim. Closure review at WP:AN may be the best option, but my concern is less about whether the closer has reached an accurate reflection of the discussion's consensus (I'm not sure they have – but I also think it's clear there isn't a consensus among discussion participants), and more about what should be done when a plurality of editors are supportive for a sentence which other editors firmly believe violates NPOV and appropriate academic caution for a tertiary source such as an encyclopedia (I count myself among this group). I'd appreciate others' thoughts, and suggestions of where next to take this discussion. Jr8825 • Talk 21:57, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
I'm the closer of this discussion, so I would like to make a comment. Firstly, the crux of discussion was, considering a wide range of WP policy (including WP:NPOV and WP:EXCEPTIONAL), whether or not this should be called genocide, and both sides understood the implications of calling this genocide. I saw no comment's that would account as WP:DISCARD and if I did I wouldn't have considered them in the analysis. I completely understand the concerns of The Four Deuces and Masem with some of the ways decisions are made on Wikipedia. I agree this consensus based system is not perfect, it has it's obvious flaws, but it's still the way we get things done around here. When I was closing this discussion I did not make a judgement on what I believed was right, that's not how closers should conduct themselves. I don't have the liberty to decide what we should and shouldn't be doing from the closing end. The community decided on its own will considering all the evidence, the policies, and sourcing that we should indeed call this genocide in wiki voice. That's the plurality, the overwhelming polarity. Over half of editors supported A out of the 6 choices. I personally would have chosen B if I had participated in the discussion, but it would have been grossly improper for me to interject my opinion into the consensus analysis. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ( talk) 04:22, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
does not require anybody to be killed for a genocide to happen: It requires an attempt to physically annihilate a group, which historically has always meant mass killing. The only exception that the Genocide Convention mentions is if extermination is carried out by completely preventing any births. Nothing of the sort has even been alleged against China.
stopping a people speaking their language and practicing their culture is genocide according to that convention: No, it isn't. As the UN page on the convention explains,
To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice(emphasis added).
Taking their children away and raising them in another culture so the previous culture dies out is also genocide: Again, this is just incorrect. As the UN page explains,
Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group(emphasis added).
Having all the people have very bad conditions just because they are of a culture is also genocide.This has nothing to do with genocide as defined by the Genocide Convention, and if this were the definition, the word would lose all its meaning. Almost anything could then be argued to be genocide. One ethnic group has a lower life expectancy? Genocide. One ethnic group is treated unfairly by the justice system and has far higher rates of incarceration? Genocide. It's difficult to think of a major country that would not be guilty of genocide against several ethnic groups at once if this were the definition. But this isn't the definition. Again, genocide is defined by the convention to be a deliberate attempt to physically annihilate a group.
A few simple questions. We have RS say it is a genocide, correct? Some say "it's called a genocide", true? do we have any RS that says it is not genocide? Slatersteven ( talk) 14:26, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
By the common understanding of the word, it is not. ... By accusing it of genocide instead, in the absence of mass murder, America is diminishing the unique stigma of the term.
The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide
But over the past ten years, as documents have been leaked to the press and more Uyghur activists have escaped the country, a bleak picture has emerged, leading some observers—including the U.S.—to classify China’s ongoing human rights abuses as genocide. ... Clarke argues that cultural genocide is a more accurate description for China’s systematic campaign against the Uyghurs.
Human Rights Watch has not documented the existence of the necessary genocidal intent at this time.
There are credible charges of human rights abuses against Uighurs, but those do not per se constitute genocide.
Whether China’s actions against the Uyghurs in Xinjiang deserves the label genocide or not has garnered significant debate in recent years.
The new statistical evidence on forced sterilizations in Xinjiang [in June 2020] has led scholars, media commentators and international barristers to consider the possibility that a full genocide – rather than what had to date been cautiously described by most as a "cultural genocide" – might be taking place. ... Cultural genocide, however, was excluded from the UN Genocide Convention, and destruction of dignity is not considered genocide in international law, which requires the intended physical destruction of members of a group.
From 2017 on, many Western newspapers and magazines ... and the Communist-sponsored Global Times have devoted an extraordinary amount of space to Xinjiang. ... Loaded terminology such as “genocide,” “atrocities,” and “terrorists” frequently characterize these reports, and the sources are either not cited or not fully identified.
In compiling this book, we have been mindful of three key controversies that have held sway in debates about Xinjiang in recent years. The first is whether we should resort to the term ‘genocide’. While particular aspects and effects of the post-2017 system in Xinjiang do meet legal definitions of the term ... the system does not seem to be one of intentional mass death.
cultural genocide(a relatively new term which those sources are careful to define and establish as distinct from traditional definitions of genocide.) I feel that sources like that are an argument against using unqualified genocide in the article voice - after all, using them in a way that erases a distinction or qualification that they make is misusing them as a source. This ties into something else that was mentioned in terms of WP:RFCBEFORE not really being satisfied - this is basically just a rerun of the previous RFC; not many new sources were actually presented. If the people pushing for genocide in the article voice had taken it more slowly and compromised by eg. defining and using the term
cultural genocidein the lead, things might be a bit different. But trying to crowbar in "genocide", unqualified, in the article voice as if it is uncontested fact that this meets the traditional definition of genocide simply does not reflect the sources as a whole. -- Aquillion ( talk) 10:14, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
I just wanted to chime in and say that I disagree with the way the closing was handled largely due to the emphasis placed on what was essentially a vote tallying. I'd like the closer to remember WP:NOTVOTE for the sake of similar RfC's in the future. 50.24.63.63 ( talk) 02:51, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Whether a news article says its genocide or not is irrelevant. If the actions described in the article fall under the definition of genocide then we can say the article adds weight to the idea that genocide is being committed. The actions of the Chinese government, described by the vast majority of articles I've seen, fit the definition provided by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, signed by 152 nations. Netanyahuserious ( talk) 10:05, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
From a wiki-process standpoint, I think that all is proper. But wrong from a policy standpoint. So this probably shows a weakness in the process. Using an unneeded, value laden, contested characterization (in sources) in the voice of Wikipedia that doesn't add any info the the article. To put it more succinctly, a far reaching claim where sources substantially disagree, and one "side" is put in as fact in the voice of Wikipedia. Despite statements and efforts to the contrary, some RFC's can turn out to be essentially mere opinion polls.North8000 ( talk) 17:48, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
This is a wearisome dispute with a persistent user that I'd like resolved quickly. As of now, I have three disruptive editor notices thanks to this person; at first, I had one for actively daring to reveal this user for their history of edit warrings and edit blocks for incredibly unprofessional and disruptive behaviors. Then, out of nowhere I received three as he'd evidently decided to skip notice two. I have wanted a third party opinion since this morning; I had stated that I would concede, assuming my edits were not found to be in good faith. Since everything in regard to links is available in this section, I will copy-paste it from the Ted Kaczynski talk page:
Evidently, it has come to my attention, thanks to user Mathsci that my edits are continually in violation of WP:NPOV. The assertion is that the "High school" section regarding subject's later confessions of never having a real friend or being singled out in gym class as an adolescent to his brother (in addition to several quotes of peers concerning subject's unkempt, immature condition) disrupts the tone of the overall article. However, if you view the previous section, titled "Childhood," there are several instances of quotes, reflections, and other such ruminations from various people in subject's environment at the time as well.
In fact, my edit seems to be entirely consistent with that of the previous section that discusses various thoughts of family members and his being bullied in contrast, with cited events such as subject being shoved into a locker and his being a misfit even amongst the "eggheads" at Evergreen High. According to this editor, this is not only an extremely biased edit, but highly disruptive with the tone of the WP:FA. He then went on to point out—with poor reasoning and spelling—my predominant edits concerning various serial killer articles on WP, as if that makes his decision in any way credible or valid according to policy. The absolute irony of pointing out my edits, however, is the fact that he consistently and recurrently runs into trouble regarding edit-warring—though it does not apply to WP:BLP articles—before actively removing any opposition in the form of confrontation, something I have never engaged in or had trouble with. Nevertheless, I responded with my arguments which are accessible here, and conveniently collapsed (something he has been known to do with other users before being blocked or cornered into submission) for any passersby. To quote Johnuniq:
"Mathsci is great on developing properly referenced, high quality encyclopedic content, and I have seen Mathsci interact well with other users, even when there is a disagreement. However, once a problem reaches a certain point, Mathsci can switch and adopt an inappropriate approach which involves total annihilation."
Nevertheless, I had made another edit omitting the well-documented opinions of those around subject, only to have them removed once more. Since I refuse to engage in WP:EDITCON, I have been forced to defer to this page to reach a general consensus as per WP:CON of whether or not said content is appropriate for the "High school" section of this article. If you look at my edits, there is nothing to suggest that I have added negatively to subject's reputation through these edits. In truth, there are obvious improvements reverted such as pointing out that subject's father worked at Kaczynski's Sausages, and his actual dealings with his peers at a young age.
If his "unkempt" condition is said to be an exaggeration, that could have been tweaked; in spite of this, the entire contribution is reverted, including the bit concerning Kaczynski's Sausages, edits of the "Childhood" section which are complete improvements and in tandem with the tone of the article content. These reverts are limitations which are at best pernicious and highly disruptive of contributory effort. It feels highly inappropriate and uncouth to confront a particular user like this, but the unreasonable measures taken are so brazen—and poorly written to note—so as to leave me with no choice. If I am wrong, I concede, but I feel that this information is pertinent to the life and crimes of subject.
I want to reach a consensus according to policy, as I am much newer than most to WP anyhow, and this will be tiresome and according to "inappropriate approach" otherwise.
-- Edd Wesson ( talk) 20:00, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
I just read that article and I feel it pushes a mild anti-Czech narrative, especially in the
Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia#Aftermath section. It is mostly small stuff (example:
WP:OR in Slovakia has higher political stability than the Czech Republic. As of 2018, Slovaks have had only four prime ministers since 1998, but the Czechs have had ten.
), though some passages are more egregious (example: (...) followed by a shaky centre-right cabinet, which (...) did not want to adopt the euro because of (...) the Civic Democrats' ideological stance.
). (I also vaguely feel a pro-union / anti-dissolution bias, but I cannot really point to a given sentence.)
There are many "citation needed" tags and I could probably just remove large portions with an edit summary of "don’t revert unless you give a source" but that seems a tad brutal. On the whole, the article is not so bad. Someone with knowledge of the countries (i.e., not me) might be able to easily cut the fluff and source the rest. Tigraan Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 14:31, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
I have noticed that several new accounts have added promotional material to the China Horse Club article. I think the version I initially created should be returned to. The club is somewhat controversial in horse racing and there is plenty to add about it, but the current version is flat out promotion with mostly unreliable sources. Thriley ( talk) 03:43, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
The article in question is Cancel culture.
I am asking anyone who is interested to please participate in this discussion: Talk:Cancel_culture#WP:SENSATION
This is the diff that is being debated: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Cancel_culture&type=revision&diff=1077199312&oldid=1076998178
The section of the article that was removed was called "Examples of cancel culture as reported in the news."
This is the content that was removed. I support including the content. As of right now, everyone else in the discussion opposes including the content. I would like to hear the opinions of anyone else who might want to participate in the discussion. Thank you. Here is the content that was removed:
Content
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In 2020, Civis Analytics fired David Shor, a data analyst, after he tweeted, "Post- MLK-assasination race riots reduced Democratic vote share in surrounding counties by 2%, which was enough to tip the 1968 election to Nixon. Non-violent protests *increase* Dem vote, mainly by encouraging warm elite discourse and media coverage." Shor's tweet also included a link to a paper by Princeton professor Omar Wasow, which hypothesized that peaceful protests were more effective than violent ones. [1] [2] New York magazine wrote, "At least some employees and clients on Civis Analytics complained that Shor’s tweet threatened their safety." [3] New York magazine also wrote that Shor's firing had caused him to "become a byword for the excesses of so-called cancel culture." [4] PBS mentioned Shor's firing in an article called, "‘Cancel culture’ debate bubbles up in politics and beyond" [5] Politico mentioned Shor's firing in an article called, "How Everything Became ‘Cancel Culture’" [6] In an opinion column for the New York Times, Michelle Goldberg wrote, "One of the more egregious recent examples of left-wing illiberalism is the firing of David Shor." [7] In 2020, the University of Tennessee successfully pressured a newly admitted student to not attend the college, after someone sent the college a video of a private Snapchat conversation which had taken place three years earlier, where the student had said to her friends, “I can drive [racial slur].” The New York Times referred to the university's action as "cancellation," with the word "cancellation" including a link to an older New York Times article called, "Tales From the Teenage Cancel Culture." [8] In February 2021, Disney fired actress Gina Carano from her role on The Mandalorian after she tweeted, " Jews were beaten in the streets, not by Nazi soldiers but by their neighbors.... even by children" and "Because history is edited, most people today don’t realize that to get to the point where Nazi soldiers could easily round up thousands of Jews, the government first made their own neighbors hate them simply for being Jews. How is that any different from hating someone for their political views?" [9] [10] [11] [12] She was dropped by her agent and Hasbro removed her Star Wars action figure from the shelves. [13] The phrase "cancel culture" was cited in reports of her firing. [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] In March 2021, Dr. Seuss Enterprises announced that it would stop publishing six books by Dr. Seuss, which it said included “hurtful” portrayals of cultural stereotypes. [19] Dr. Seuss Enterprises told Associated Press, "These books portray people in ways that are hurtful and wrong." Citing examples, Associated Press wrote, "In And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street, an Asian person is portrayed wearing a conical hat, holding chopsticks, and eating from a bowl. If I Ran the Zoo includes a drawing of two bare-footed African men wearing what appear to be grass skirts with their hair tied above their heads." The same Associated Press article also stated, "The move to cease publication of the books drew immediate reaction on social media from those who called it another example of 'cancel culture.'" [20] References
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Mulva? Gipple? Dolores! ( talk) 18:48, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Would someone mind taking a look at the article on Karim Massimov and mentions of him in the 2022 Kazakh unrest article? The narrative is currently quite speculative in places, which is inappropriate and potentially dangerous given the charges of alleged treason against the individual. For the Massimov article in particular, as a Biography of a Living Person, it is important that the article presents a fair account of all narratives, especially because human rights activists are concerned about the welfare of those arrested in the protests. Ideally I’d prefer to discuss this via email but I do have a list of sources and possible text which might help to make the article more well-rounded; due to how sensitive the situation is I want to check with the Wikipedia community what would work best.
As a starting point a level of page protection would be helpful to ensure no misinformation can be added, but if anyone can assist with some editorial oversight and advice that would be helpful and appreciated. MSturgill ( talk) 11:24, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
I am consistently troubled by user Zefr removing vital public information from the Moderna page. He and another user called Acroterion hound the page and always make vague allegations about the information's lack of neutrality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Surge Of Reason ( talk • contribs) 22:23, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
The Zero COVID article relies heavily on primary sources, and some editors are opposed to covering the due criticism of and opposition to this policy, deleting the Opposition section I created [35], toning down the criticism, and removing POV, BCN and WHO tags appended (and also casting aspersions).
The majority of RS are heavily critical of this policy, in particular to its purported effectiveness as a public health policy, and there is very little scholarship on it. This policy was also cited to "settle the question" about China's alleged undercounting of cases, claiming that this policy works by those countries implementing it [36], which led to a discussion on RSN [37].
Here are a few recent articles questioning China's narrative about the policy and its effectiveness: [38] [39] [40]. My main concern is that critical sources are not being fairly and proportionately represented. Any assistance with this deadlock will be greatly appreciated. LondonIP ( talk) 00:41, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
Sources
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— Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 01:10, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
This is a terrible notice for the reasons said by Shibbole above. The various criticism has been summarised well, with plenty of citations, there is no need to repeatedly mention the same criticism or to attribute them to specific people, when as you have said, many people have criticised the policy. Xoltered ( talk) 02:31, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
As mentioned by Moxy, LondonIP as well as few other editors have been repeatedly making disruptive edits, and I will note that it is not just this article but numerous other articles in which they have done so, typically edit warring to try to get their way. Perhaps as Moxy said, some action should be taken. Xoltered ( talk) 02:31, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
deleting the Opposition section I createdThe opposition section wasn't deleted, it was condensed by me. Before. After. The before version had problems with WP:QUOTEFARM. The after version fixed the issue with quotes and concisely summarized the points made by both supporters and opposers. To write the after section, I simply read and summarized the before section, reusing most of the existing citations. The after version was supported by multiple people and seems to have consensus, as documented at Talk:Zero-COVID#Delete section "Views on the zero-COVID strategy"?. If one checks the page history of zero-COVID, two editors in particular have added POV and "who" tags to this article multiple times over the course of months, over the objections of other editors. This is arguably a slow motion edit war. I find this to be a timesink, and WP:AE may be an option worth exploring. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 04:18, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
Opponents of the zero-COVID strategy argue that a vaccine would be required to end the pandemic, [1] that zero-COVID causes the economy to suffer, [2] [3] that before vaccinations were common, elimination strategies lowered herd immunity, [4] that zero-COVID is not sustainable, [5] and that newer variants such as the omicron variant are so transmissible that the zero-COVID strategy is no longer feasible. [6]
Opposition to the zero-COVID policy[50] fits well with what WP:POVNAMING lays out. My choice was
Scientific Views on the zero-COVID strategy. [51] but I now think Opposition is better as criticism of the policy is not just about the science, but also the social and economic costs - as I explained in the discussion [52]. Any policy of importance will inevitably face some opposition and in the case of Zero COVID, most RS cover the opposition more than they do support. I can move us forward with sources and quotes, but this noticeboard discussion should focus on clarifying the problem and bringing in cooler heads. CutePeach ( talk) 14:08, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
Descriptive titles should be worded neutrally, so as not to suggest a viewpoint for or against a topic, or to confine the content of the article to views on a particular side of an issue (for example, an article titled "Criticisms of X" might be better renamed "Societal views on X")." Indeed, this is not the most aptly applied part of that policy, given it is about entire articles rather than sections. But WP:STRUCTURE says, similarly:
and WP:PROPORTION says: "Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself, may result in an unencyclopedic structure, such as a back-and-forth dialogue between proponents and opponents.[1] It may also create an apparent hierarchy of fact where details in the main passage appear "true" and "undisputed", whereas other, segregated material is deemed "controversial", and therefore more likely to be false. Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections that ignore or fight against each other.
a description of isolated events, quotes, criticisms, or news reports related to one subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic". Similarly, WP:SUMMARY says "
Do not put undue weight into one part of an article at the cost of other parts."LondonIP's suggestion is not advisable per these WP:PAGs. We should not create a POVCOATRACK of various people's negative opinions of the policy, but rather summarize the overall criticisms and praises in a views section in proportion to their coverage in our WP:BESTSOURCES. If anyone here disagrees about the current proportionality, that would be where we should move forwards in discussion, not in continually reverting against consensus and disruptively inserting disputed material to force it into the article. Suggest drafts which are, in your opinion, more proportional, and provide evidence of this proportionality. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 14:10, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
as RS cover opposition more than support for the policy- Do you have a source review which has evidence for this? Including the fact that different qualities of sources (isolated news opinion articles (critical and low quality) vs academic review papers (laudatory and high quality)) do not recapitulate this trend? — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 14:30, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
There should be a section with an appropriate title covering the opposition and criticism and explaining it in greater detail.WP:CSECTION is an essay, but it is common practice to follow it around here. Long before I edited in the COVID topic area, as a newer editor, I tried adding a criticism section to articles a couple times and got reverted. It is best practice to present positive and negative views side-by-side, not separately. Once this thread simmers down and an uninvolved person weighs in, I am confident they will arrive at the same conclusion. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 15:22, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join in at Talk:Chinese government response to COVID-19 § RFC: How should we include allegations of undercounting?. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 12:54, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
The Kashmir Files is a film made on a real incident of the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus and two editors, namely Kautilya3 and TrangaBellam have made edits full of bias and not keeping aside their political bias about this film. A big violation of WP: NPOV
Wikipedia administrators need to check into this highly open violations of not one but numerous violations of Wikipedia guidelines in this article. I hope strict action is taken against these users. Krish | Talk To Me 07:57, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
They have used a Film companion quote which does not have a source.- The link will be added pending a whitelist.
They had removed the earlier positive reviews- A single review from someone who is neither a film-critic nor has reviewed any other film before, was removed after discussion. The mere existence of a review does not bind us into carrying it.
highlighted the negative ones now- How?
They even adopt "top critic" status of a critic on Rotten Tomatoes to decide whose views matter the most on Wikipedia.- I don't think so. For example, Shubhra Gupta (the only RT Top Critic, who has reviewed the film) is mentioned in the second paragraph of the reception section, after four positive reviews in the first paragraph!
positive reviews are restricted to 2 words- Factually inaccurate; read the first paragraph of the reception section for yourself. How can any review be restricted to 2 words?
WP: QUOTEFARM for the negative ones- Factually inaccurate; read the second and third paragraph of the reception section for yourself.
reception section does not talk about the cinematography, acting, writing but is full of only its perceived politics.- Blame the reviewers. How can I help?
I guess Germans will claim the same about Schindler's List- Welcome to the alternate universe of Hindutva.
They use two reviews from same publication group.- Examples? Adding a disclaimer that Indian Express and New Indian Express are different entities.
When I removed an unsourced claim in the article.- That line did not need a source, as evident from a perusal of the well-sourced Reception section. TrangaBellam ( talk) 08:32, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
My name is Ashley and I work for a law firm called Hagens Berman. I have raised some concerns about the page at Talk:Hagens Berman regarding un-cited claims, citing an op-ed for criticisms, citing one source for half the page, etc. The main author of the page (@ Marquardtika:) said they wanted other editors to weigh in. My hope is an editor or two here might be willing to do so at Talk: Hagens Berman. Thank you in advance for any contributions to the discussion. AshleyK1990 ( talk) 19:16, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
Something about the tone of this one doesn’t sit right. That and the first source on the page being a dead link from a religious site. Hyperbolick ( talk) 12:39, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
A third editor has recommended that we request help in resolving an issue with regards to the persecution of Harari people on the Haile Selassie Wikipedia page (section four on the talk page). I personally believe that context should be added as the Emperor is relentlessly slandered on the pretext of tribal and ethnic oppression for political reasons even to this day (see The Romantic Rewriting of Haile Selassie's Legacy Must Stop, Woyane rebellion and the Tigray War for example). Omission of crucial context in the opening paragraph is a subtle yet obvious ploy to promote a political narrative and goes against basic neutrality guidelines in my opinion. The sentence in question is: "During his rule the Harari people were persecuted and many left the Harari Region." [1]
I proposed the following edits which were all consequently rejected:
I've notified the parties involved, any assistance with this deadlock will be greatly appreciated thanks for all you do. Czar Petar I ( talk) 13:11, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
I agree with the above proposals, source backs this. YonasJH ( talk) 12:14, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
References
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 90 | ← | Archive 92 | Archive 93 | Archive 94 | Archive 95 | Archive 96 | → | Archive 100 |
Rand Paul ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
There is a sentence on Rand Paul's Wikipedia page that should be changed, due to obvious bias. The sentence currently reads:
"In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which falsely claims that masks are not effective".
I think it should read: "In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which (according to YouTube) falsely claims that masks are not effective."
If this sentence isn't changed, it demonstates a clear bias by Wikipedia about masks in general, as well as about the YouTube video being referenced. Neutral reporting demands that no judgement is made by the reporting entity. They can report that another entity has made a certain judgement, but they are not supposed to make one themselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:4A:C801:2390:B034:A59C:E7AB:8DFE ( talk) 23:45, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
"In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which falsely claims that masks are not effective".The sentence does not state any rationale in Wikipedia's voice. The sentence says three (maybe four) things:
If there is doubt regarding whether or not he claimed that masks are not effective, it is not reasonable. AlexEng( TALK) 02:19, 23 December 2021 (UTC)In the video, Mr. Paul says: “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection.” Later in the video, he adds, “Trying to shape human behavior isn’t the same as following the actual science, which tells us that cloth masks don’t work.”
What do RS say? Slatersteven ( talk) 18:41, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
There are multiple statements buried in that sentence (and keeping in mind that masks have only partial and variable effectiveness which means that such can be in context be termed both effective and ineffective)
The above are all extraordinary claims. Without even getting into NPOV, Both under WP:Verifiability and especially WP:BLP these would need very strong sourcing (which they don't have) to be in Wikipedia. Further, burying additional "slam" statements (via adjectives) in a sentence which is informing about a YouTube suspension is also bad practice and not informative. Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 14:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
that Rand Paul claimed...masks are ineffective,
that such a claim is false, and
that...Rand Paul made a clearly false claim. I do not see why any of these three claims would in fact be extraordinary (and in the case of the second claim, it seems FRINGE to me to even propose that it is extraordinary). The NYT article clearly makes all three statements, and I see no reason that would not be sufficient verification for all three. Rand Paul was suspended from YouTube for making misleading medical claims, and WP should plainly follow the sources that sat this. Newimpartial ( talk) 17:45, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
... the senator said that “there’s no value” in wearing masks.
In fact, masks do work, according to the near-unanimous recommendations of public health experts.
In the video, Mr. Paul says: “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection.” Later in the video, he adds, “Trying to shape human behavior isn’t the same as following the actual science, which tells us that cloth masks don’t work.” In fact, masks do work, according to the near-unanimous recommendations of public health experts.That's what "in fact" means. It's a prepositional phrase establishing contrast with the previous statement, and it's often used to rebut claims in journalism. I'm flabbergasted that we apparently need to have a discussion on basic grammar to step through what is plainly written in the source.
Paul falsely claimed in the removed video, “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection," adding that “cloth masks don’t work."
Rand Paul’s false claim that masks don’t work
In the three-minute video Paul disputed the effectiveness of masks, which the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and medical experts around the world have recommended to limit the spread of the coronavirus.as well as
YouTube suspended U.S. Sen. Rand Paul for seven days on Tuesday and removed a video posted by the Kentucky Republican that claimed cloth masks don’t prevent infection, saying it violated policies on COVID-19 misinformation.
In the video, Paul, whose background is in ophthalmology, criticized the effectiveness of “over the counter” and cloth-based masks. “They don’t prevent infection,” he said at one point in the roughly three-minute video. “Trying to shape human behavior isn’t the same as following the actual science, which tells us that cloth masks don’t work.”
The New York Times reports that Paul false claimed, “most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection” in the video. Later in the video he claimed again that cloth masks don't work.and also
However, masks do work, according to health officials and scientists. The World Health Organization's policy says that fabric, non-medical masks can be used by the general public under the age of 60 and who do not have underlying health conditions.(Note the use of preposition to rebut a claim once again)
YouTube has suspended Republican Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky from uploading content for one week after he posted a video claiming most masks are ineffective in combatting COVID-19and also
Public health experts have said masks, even cloth masks, which Paul took particular issue with, offer protection against COVID-19 transmission, which in turn prevents infection. But Paul claimed in the video, "cloth masks don’t work," and that most over-the-counter masks “don’t prevent infection,” according to YouTube, which it said violated its policies against spreading COVID-19 medical misinformation.
novel conclusiondo you refer? I don't see anything stated in the current article text that goes beyond the (NYT) source provided. Newimpartial ( talk) 21:25, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm afraid, Masem, that you are simply wrong about this. Unless the statement that Paul falsely claims that masks are not effective
is disputed by some RS, it would be a violation of NPOV to attribute it to the New York Times. We don't attribute statements unless there is disagreement among reliable sources, or unless they employ value-laden LABELS (and prior discussions have not established that "falsely" is a value-laden label, in terms of policy).
Newimpartial (
talk) 19:14, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
YouTube suspended Sen. Rand Paul's account on Tuesday for posting a video claiming cloth face masks are ineffective against the coronavirus....
Paul falsely claimed in the removed video, “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection," adding that “cloth masks don’t work."[3] What you are suggesting is that we ignore that because you, personally, believe that the media is being too critical and want to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS by correcting that here. Even if you don't recognize it, that suggestion blatantly misrepresents the source for the purposes of inserting your personal POV into the article. The primary reason we have problems with NPOV writing on these articles is precisely because of errors like the one you are making here - editors who are unable to separate "what they believe the sources should say" from "what the sources say" and who therefore argue stridently that their POV language is required for NPOV. NBC and the NYT's wording is not critical - Paul is not being "criticized by the media" in the vague boogieman sense you are using here, and the fact that you felt the need to imply otherwise undermines your point by diving headfirst into WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS territory. The sources for this are objectively summarizing the broadly-accepted facts in and impartial neutral tone. Your suggestion, on the other hand, would crudely insert your POV into the article based solely on your personal gut disagreement with or distrust for those sources. -- Aquillion ( talk) 20:52, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
which is not something we know is true- this seems to me to raise the key point; WP is WP:NOTTRUTH, much as you would like for it to be so. We cannot put words in YouTube's mouth, but if reliable sources have done so (and none have not done so), we have no choice but to follow them. Any alternative would be a novel interpretation of the primary sources, which is what you gave offered above. Newimpartial ( talk) 22:43, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
are not effective, appears to be both accurate and well-sourced. Let's not wander into the weeds for no reason. Newimpartial ( talk) 19:09, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
In fact, masks do work, according to the near-unanimous recommendations of public health experts.NBC says that
YouTube suspended Sen. Rand Paul's account on Tuesday for posting a video claiming cloth face masks are ineffective against the coronavirus....
Paul falsely claimed in the removed video, “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection," adding that “cloth masks don’t work."[4] Politifact says that
YouTube and Twitter on Aug. 10 temporarily suspended accounts belonging to Sen. Rand Paul and Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene on grounds they violated the platforms’ policies against spreading COVID-19 misinformation.[5]. Many other sources say similar things. Without a source contradicting this it would be a clear WP:NPOV violation to frame it as YouTube's opinion (it would be representing an essentially uncontested fact as opinion), and it would be grossly misrepresenting the source (presenting this as merely YouTube's opinion when the source flatly says otherwise.) Suggesting that we could add
(according to YouTube)using that source is suggesting a shocking violation of WP:NPOV and WP:TONE. - Aquillion ( talk) 20:52, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
"In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video in which he falsely claimed that most masks are not effective".Losing precision/context can have the result of appearing as editorial bias/selective use of information, which does end up entering into NPOV-violating territory. However, once this is rectified I don't think it's necessary to attribute "falsely claimed" to YouTube, as there's a strong weight of RS which say his claim that most masks don't work is scientifically false. Jr8825 • Talk 21:35, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
"Paul falsely claimed in the removed video, "Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection," adding that "cloth masks don’t work""( NBC), is not the same as saying
"Paul falsely claimed masks don't work". This kind of inaccuracy matters when fighting the spread of misinformation, we want to ensure readers trust our content. Jr8825 • Talk 22:51, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
Why do you even need the word falsely in there? Why not just say YouTube suspended Paul for claiming that masks don't work which violates their policies on COVID misinformation, the end. You dont need to attribute to YouTube what other expert sources say is true, and who YouTube relies on in determining their misinformation policy. But you also dont need to push in "falsely" either, it is just not necessary there. nableezy - 22:36, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
tantamount to altering published quotes- the whole project of this encyclopaedia depends on RS that paraphrase and even summarize the content of primary sources. Newimpartial ( talk) 19:40, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you think is going wrong, so here e.g. is NBC's discussion of YouTube's reasoning: "We removed content from Senator Paul’s channel for including claims that masks are ineffective in preventing the contraction or transmission of COVID-19, in accordance with our COVID-19 medical misinformation policies,"
NBC specifically describes the claims in question thus, Paul falsely claimed in the removed video, “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection," adding that “cloth masks don’t work."
The current version of our article reads, In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which falsely claims that masks are not effective
. I don't see any
WP:SYNTH there whatsoever.
Newimpartial (
talk) 20:11, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
WP:Ver and wp:nor establish a sourcing / sourcability requirement for inclusion, not a mandate or force for inclusion. Just because a source is generally OK does not mandate including what they wrote. For example, if they say that youtube said something that they didn't say. Or, if due to such reasons or others, such does not meet the even higher standards of WP:BLP. Saying that YouTube made a damning statement about Paul, and a statement that YouTube never made certainly is an extraordinary claim. North8000 ( talk) 20:00, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which falsely claims that masks are not effective. The reliable sources establish a sequence: Paul makes statements on YouTube which the RS document to be false; Paul is then suspended by YouTube under its misinformation policy. Our article text doesn't suggest that YouTube made any particular
statementabout the matter, so you seem to be making up a claim and then interpreting it as EXTRAORDINARY. Newimpartial ( talk) 20:20, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
he published a video which falsely claims that masks are not effective? That statement has been supported by multiple RS in this discussion, and contradicted by none. Newimpartial ( talk)
I also agree with Masem's rationale even though they are focusing on a different area than me. I think that Masem's main point is that the questioned statement blends both:
into the same sentence and in a way that implies that the "somebody else's assessment" was the reason given by YT for the 1 week suspension. And the a wiki editor doing such is synthesis/OR.
My different aspect is this. If you ask an expert "will this mask certainly prevent transmission of Covid", they will say "no" because it is only partially effective at that. So there are variable meanings of "effective" and under some of those saying "not effective" can be true. Which means that saying "not effective" is an arguable statement rather than a categorically false one. So Paul made an arguable statement, not a flatly false one. So a statement that he made a false statement is at best an extraordinary claim and under WP:BLP would need very strong sourcing (that it was a false statement). North8000 ( talk) 18:33, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
Why can't the sentence be turned around, to avoid the potential inference that YouTube made a declaration as to the falsity of Paul's claim? That is, change:
In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which falsely claims that masks are not effective.
In August 2021, Paul published a video in which he falsely claimed that masks are not effective, after which he was suspended from YouTube for a week under their misinformation policy.
Does this address the concerns? 172.195.96.244 ( talk) 11:20, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
“We removed content from Senator Paul’s channel for including claims that masks are ineffective in preventing the contraction or transmission of COVID-19, in accordance with our COVID-19 medical misinformation policies,” YouTube said in a statement. “We apply our policies consistently across the platform, regardless of speaker or political views.”
In August 2021, Paul published a YouTube video that falsely claimed "that masks are ineffective in preventing the contraction or transmission of COVID-19."[r1][r2][r3+] YouTube took down the video and suspended Paul for a week under their COVID-19 misinformation policy.[r1][r3+]
(according to YouTube). This addition is not acceptable because RS does not emphasize YouTubes viewpoint, they explain the RS truth, not YouTube truth. While I could go back and forth in my head to decide whether or not I though Pauls comments arose to the level of saying "mask are ineffective", but that would be WP:OR. So I'm obligated to make this decision purely on whether or not RS said that Paul claimed masks as being ineffective. WaPo said this:
Rand Paul’s false claim that masks don’t work. ABC said this:
he posted a video claiming most masks are ineffective in combatting COVID-19. Politico said this:
In the video, Paul, whose background is in ophthalmology, criticized the effectiveness of “over the counter” and cloth-based masks. “They don’t prevent infection,” he said at one point in the roughly three-minute video. “Trying to shape human behavior isn’t the same as following the actual science, which tells us that cloth masks don’t work.”Some sources say strictly that Paul thinks masks are ineffective, but some others elaborate on how he said "most masks" or specified he was talking about over the counter masks and cloth ones. I think Wikipedia should follow suit. The sentence should read:
In August 2021, Paul was suspended from YouTube for a week under the company's misinformation policy after he published a video which falsely claims that most "over the counter" and cloth masks are not effective.Iamreallygoodatcheckers ( talk) 06:27, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
What counts as DUE when discussing how a politician voted to various legislation? I'm asking in context to a range of good faith edits made by Fenetrejones. The edits typically are in the form of person voted for/against a particular law and often cite sources that contain roll calls of votes like house.gov, govtrack.us, RollCall etc. They are also typically mass added thus most/everyone who voted for/against the bill in question had an edit (examples [8] [9] [10] [11]). Note that I don't question the accuracy of this information, only it's weight. How do we decide if it's UNDUE to list how a politician voted on an issue?
I would argue that at minimum we need a RS discussing the bill and discussing how the politician in question was significant in it's passage/non-passage. If an article concludes by saying "the following senators voted for/against this bill" then I would say that doesn't establish weight for inclusion in the senator/politician's BLP even if it might be due in an article about the bill. My view, backed by various RfCs, is that WEIGHT doesn't have reciprocity. That A is DUE in an article about B doesn't mean B is DUE in an article about A. As edited there appears to be no selection criteria why these specific bills were picked to be included in the various BLPs which means they may just be ones an editor is interested in. What standards should nominally apply? I think it is an important question in cases where there are mass additions since reverting many edits can look like hounding whereas reverting a single edit often is seen as simple, good faith editorial disagreement. Springee ( talk) 14:49, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Israel has been accused by three notable human rights organizations of committing the crime of apartheid in its treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories, those being B'tselem, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. We have an article Israel and the apartheid analogy which discusses this and other accusations directed against Israel regarding the crime of apartheid, but just regarding the three human rights groups, their accusations have been widely covered in reliable sources. For example:
Several users have claimed the any mention of this material in the
Israel article under the section on the occupied territories is a NPOV violation and
WP:UNDUE. At issue is the material removed in
this diff which includes a user
oddly placing a serious of {{
POV statement}}
tags within a direct quote. Do the source above establish weight to include this material quoted here?
Israel's treatment of the Palestinians within the occupied territories has drawn accusations that it is guilty of the crime of apartheid by human rights groups such as B'tselem, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, with the criticism extending in to its treatment of Palestinians within Israel as well. Israel rejects that it is guilty of the crime against humanity, saying that the claim peddles "lies, inconsistencies, and unfounded assertions that originate from well-known anti-Israeli hate organisations" while the Palestinians called the report a "detailed affirmation of the cruel reality of entrenched racism, exclusion, oppression, colonialism, apartheid, and attempted erasure that the Palestinian people have endured".
Does the removed material include appropriately the accusations and relevant responses? Or do these source not demonstrate that the accusations have sufficient weight to be included in our article? nableezy - 20:17, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
This article has been edited by admirers and critics of the 2nd Marquess of Sligo, who was (depending on which paragraph of the article you read) was either a champion of freedom or a greedy slave-owning barstard. -- Orange Mike | Talk 16:19, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
I've found that there are many Yazidi articles on enwiki that have fallen victim to Kurdish POV. The articles are about Yazidis who were born in Armenia. And Armenian Yazidis generally consider themselves a separate ethnic group. In Armenia, the Yazidis have been recognized as an independent ethnic group since 2002. Furthermore, their language is officially registered there with the name "Ezdiki" (Yazidi language). Yezidis are not Kurds ( talk) 20:59, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
Would some others mind taking a look at New South Wales Police Force strip search scandal as well as the related New South Wales Police Force strip search scandal (Freedom of Information releases), Issues relating to the use of drug detection dogs in New South Wales and New South Wales Police Force strip search scandal (Law Enforcement Conduct Commission investigations)? They're all covering the same subject and have been created by essentially the same person. The articles seem to rely heavily on primary sources as well as some user-generated sources like social media posts, etc., but there also does seem enough secondary coverage to perhaps justify at least a main article about the matter. One of my main concerns is whether the use of the word "scandal" may be undue since it's not clear whether that's how it's being reported by main media sources. There seems to lots of issues at play here so it might be a "scandal" in some sense, but not sure Wikipedia's voice should be used in this way. I'm bringing this up here for discussion because it involves multiple articles and I thought would be easier to discuss in one place, then on multiple article talk pages. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 00:14, 10 February 2022 (UTC)
Maxorazon ( talk) 09:51, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
In this article flag of malaysia. In the designer section in flag of malaysia wikipedia page. at this wikipedia page. Malaysia flag is design by mohammad hamzah which is inspired and borrow 2 major design from johor flag and east india company flag. But this section say that malaysia flag design which is red and white stripes is from majapahit kingdom. Red and white stripes is from east india company flag. Because before malaysia indepence east india company flag is use in malaysia teritory under british rule. this section say east india company flag is from majapahit flag . I think this is not true. And this source for this section https://www.republika.co.id/berita/pw1udm385/getahgetih-majapahit-dwi-warna-hingga-bendera-malaysia this section source is from news web in indonesia language i think. I dont think we can use news web to become source. Is not book or international journal is news page. And I dont know how to read indonesian . But this wikipedia page is in english. So better use source in english language so the other editor can read too. And when i add in talk discussion my discussion is deleted and no one respond. I need third party editor to end this dispute. If can i need editor from england or united kingdom who know history about malaysia and east india company. This is the section.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tota negi ( talk • contribs) 10:10, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
An editor has repeatedly added a liink at the top of the Critique of work article to associate that page with the recent subreddit called R/antiwork, on which we have a separate article here. The "Critique of work" is a body of work that dates back to the Marxist writer Paul Lafargue over 100 years ago. The current subreddit is a separate and distinct topic that has recently been added to the Critique of work lead here]. The entire Critique of work page has been written by a single editor as a separate page rather than as part of the R/antiwork page.
How do others suggest sorting this out to avoid conflating the current online subreddit with the historical scholarship and polemic ? SPECIFICO talk 16:26, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
The article for Rheinmetall, Germany's largest defense contractor, has been sourced entirely to the firm's corporate website. User:RandomCanadian blanked most of the prose two weeks ago. I would like to put in some work this weekend to try to get it up to snuff. I think the content should be restored for the time being. Tagging Wikipedia:Nazi affiliation task force User:Shushugah, User:Ermenrich, User:asilvering, User:Ploni, User:buidhe. Schierbecker ( talk) 03:32, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
There's a merge request at Talk:Autism spectrum#Merger proposal; Outdated terminology/taxonomy. I'm not entirely sure if this is the best place for the request but it does have to do with a certain point of view and its incompatibility with WP:MEDRS. (I also recommend seeing: User talk:Wretchskull#'Stop edit warring and achieve consensus' (re: autism spectrum)). Thank you - Wretchskull ( talk) 20:04, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
The page Qatar and State Sponsored Terrorism looks very well sourced on the face value, but a careful examination of all statements and sources used to back them would reveal that this article is standing largely on falsified sources. It might have been started as a political attack and propaganda against the subject. The tone is largely tilted against the subject with several unsupported allegations.
It was started in 2015 with 24 sources, but all 24 sources were unverifiable as they all lead to dead end. The sources used to start the article contained single words while some were phrases as title of the sources but provided no further details such as the name of the publisher, date of publication, page number(s) (for printed or offline sources), the authors of the sources, and links (for online sources), ISSN or ISBN etc. For example, the sources only contained words such “Mendick” used 7 times, “Pecquet” used 4 times, “Dettmer” used 3 times in the article. Please see the first version of the article here [1] and scroll down to the references section for proper examination of the sources. The sources were completely unverifiable against the statements contained in the article, but how this article escaped proper vetting to emerge in public space and remained since 2015 is difficult to understand.
In all sections of the article, sources cited do not relate to the statements in the article. I am not a Wikipedia editor but I have often used Wikipedia as a starting point of my research due to quality sources it provides which serve as lead. But in this particular article the sources cited are largely misleading. What the creator and those who extensively edited this article did was taking random links, change the titles of the sources to reflect the statement it claims to support. A casual look at the citations would make readers believe that the sources cited are relevant to the article due to falsified titles (headlines) but when the source is visited, one only finds completely different titles and contents that are miles apart from the article’s focus.
Now look at the following statements in the article and the sources cited in the following section and subsections:
Almost or all sources cited in this subsection are non existent. Have a look at the paragraphs below and the sources cited:
“Abd al Rahman al Nuaymi, a Qatari citizen, worked as a go-between of ISIS's predecessor, Al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI), with donors to AQI from Qatar. “More rumors about Qatar's alleged cooperation with ISIS affiliates surfaced in early 2015. On February 11, 2015 Sudan Tribune reported controversial statements by Yahia Sadam, an official of the Minni Minnawi Sudanese liberation movement who accused Qatar of endorsing the genocide perpetrated by Sudanese militiamen in Darfur by funneling money though the Sudanese branch of Qatar Charity, active in Darfur since 2010. Sadam claimed that Qatar Charity, which has purportedly signed a cooperation agreement with the Sudanese troops, was "building housing complexes in remote and isolated areas to harbor and train extremist groups". Those camps are believed to be hosting ISIS fighters, a concern voiced by attendees from the intelligence community at a March 2015 event at the United States Institute for Peace”. Now see the sources cited here [2] [3] [4]
In 2003, The New York Times wrote: "Private support from prominent Qataris to Al Qaeda is a sensitive issue that is said to infuriate George J. Tenet, the director of central intelligence. After the Sept. 11 attacks, another senior Qaeda operative, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who may have been the principal planner of the assault on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, was said by Saudi intelligence officials to have spent two weeks in late 2001 hiding in Qatar, with the help of prominent patrons, after he escaped from Kuwait."
Please check the source cited for the above statement in the article. It is not verifiable. And it leads nowhere. And gives no clue where the original source cited may be found.
Here is another one:
“Khalifa Muhammad Turki al-Subaiy and Abd al-Rahman bin Umayr al-Nuaymi are senior-level financiers of al-Qaeda. Al-Subaiy was a previous employee of the Qatar Central Bank. In 2014, U.S. Treasury Undersecretary for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence, David Cohen, announced that the two men were living freely in Qatar. Both men were on a worldwide terrorist blacklist.[4] The two men were tried and acquitted due to Qatari intelligence being unable to demonstrate evidence without "compromising its intelligence gathering capabilities" In response to Cohen's announcement and the release of the U.S. intelligence report, reporters from The Telegraph contacted Qatari officials. According to the Telegraph, "Qatar has refused to answer"
For the statement above, check carefully the sources cited in the article here [5]
Below are three lengthy paragraphs in the article, read and examine the sources cited for these paragraphs:
“At one time, Al-Nuaymi was the president of the Qatar Football Association. The U.S. report said that he sent more than 1.25 million British pounds per month to Al-Qaeda jihadist fighters in Iraq. He sent hundreds of thousands of pounds to fighters in Syria. The United States designated Al-Nuaymi as a terrorist in 2013. Britain sanctioned him in 2014. Al-Nuaymi is knowingly associated with Abd al-Wahhab Muhammad 'Abd al-Rahman Al-Humayqani, a Specially Designated Global Terrorist (SDGT) whom the US Treasury sanctioned in 2013 for his role as fundraiser and executive for al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP). The US Treasury claimed that in 2012 Al-Nuaymi supported financially a charity directed by Humayqani.[39] By exploiting his status in the charitable community, Humayqani allegedly raised funds and facilitated transfers from al-Qaeda supporters based in Saudi Arabia to Yemen.[39] Reportedly Humayqani had high level connections with al-Qaeda top operatives and often acted as an AQAP representative while meeting with Yemeni authorities. On behalf of AQAP, he allegedly recruited individuals for several murderous attacks in Yemen, and personally directed a "group of armed AQAP associates that intended to carry out attacks on Yemeni government facilities and institutions, including a Yemeni government building in al-Bayda Governorate". About ten months after being sanctioned by the U.S. Treasury, Nuaimi was also restrained from doing business in the UK.[38] Al-Subaiy and Al-Nuaymi have close ties to senior leaders in the Qatari government. Robert Medick, a reporter for The Telegraph's "Stop the Funding of Terror" campaign, wrote in 2014 that Qatar "turned a blind eye to terrorist financiers operating within their midst". According to the 9/11 Commission Report, Subayi also provided financial support to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a Pakistani al-Qaeda senior officer purported to be one of the architects of the 9/11 attacks.” [6]
Now let’s look at this subsection:
“Qatar has sponsored al-Qaeda's affiliate in Syria, the al-Nusra Front since 2013. The jihadist group, established within the framework of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi's plans for an Islamic State in the Levant, has parted ways from ISIS in 2013 due to leadership conflicts.[49] The group was designated as terrorist entity by the UN, the EU, Canada, the U.S., Israel, Hong Kong, Switzerland, and Australia. Nonetheless, Qatar has continuously supported it through ransom payments and fundraising campaigns as a strategic ally in Syria, committed to depose Syrian President Bashar al-Assad”.
Here are some of the sources cited for the statement above [7] [8] [9]
Below is another paragraph with another weighty statement with the sources cited here
“In addition to ransom payments, the Qatar government as well as Qatari citizens have sponsored large-scale fundraising campaigns to solicit "support for the procurement of weapons, food and supplies for al-Nusra in Syria" which have often relied on social media.[51] "Madid Ahl al-Sham", a fundraising campaign launched in 2013 and shut down by Qatari authorities only in 2015, became "one of the preferred conduits for donations intended for the group" [10]
This page no doubt was created in bad faith and the intention was to attack the subject. 1600-1700s ( talk) 07:25, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
References
Yet a quick review of the article [22] shows you are wrong. The full details for all those citations seem to be in the article as AndyTheGrump has already said. Frankly, even without reviewing, it was easy to guess you were probably wrong. The original article used some variant of WP:CITESHORT which is a valid albeit uncommon style on Wikipedia. Possibly the names of the sections and their locations should have been moved around, not sure but that's a minor issue. I'd note even if the article had used inline WP:Parenthetical referencing, while this is deprecated now, it wasn't then. More importantly even with the use of such a style, the further details are still provided (or should be for the style to be valid), it's just that we don't accept it on Wikipedia for various reasons. The citations are still as valid as they would be with an acceptable style, they just need to be modified to comply with our norms. And when you didn't notice the full details were in the article and so were spectacularly wrong about such a crucial detail I don't think it's surprising editors are reluctant to investigate your other claims further. Nil Einne ( talk) 06:11, 9 March 2022 (UTC)It was started in 2015 with 24 sources, but all 24 sources were unverifiable as they all lead to dead end. The sources used to start the article contained single words while some were phrases as title of the sources but provided no further details such as the name of the publisher, date of publication, page number(s) (for printed or offline sources), the authors of the sources, and links (for online sources), ISSN or ISBN etc.
I have limited experience with issues like this so please bear with me. It appears that there are divergent strategies emerging for the management of COVID, like the recent decisions by Sweden, Norway, and even in the UK, where the independent advisory committee still does not recommend vaccination in ages 5-11. Denmark has removed all mandates and restrictions including masks and booster shots. How this creates a problem is on articles like the Joe Rogan Experience, where Rogan's statements are described(by RSes, indeed) as misinformation or false, even though his opinions are comparable to the Scandinavian approaches—specifically on the subject of vaccinating children for COVID. I am certain there are many articles affected. I have not yet made additions on these pages(regarding the sources below); I think it would be better to front-run potential edit disputes with a discussion, and to have a harmonized discussion on the matter.
Sources that are divergent, just to list a select few:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-decides-against-recommending-covid-vaccines-kids-aged-5-12-2022-01-27/
https://apnews.com/7d45f190a96e4d22e62c40345a1c39b3
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/denmark-covid-restrictions/621482/
https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-business-health-pandemics-united-nations-ca046d38f7e78ad7150a0a8d95d81433
--
SmolBrane (
talk) 20:19, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
@
SmolBrane: can you describe what part of the article you feel needs to change? Because AFAICT, neither
Joe Rogan nor
Joe Rogan Experience make any commentary on vaccinating children whether now or when you first posted
[23]
[24]. The only thing close is this part Rogan made false remarks about COVID-19 vaccines, in particular claiming that young, healthy people do not need to be vaccinated against the virus.
' and 'Part of the criticism was that there have been notable cases affecting young, healthy people.
' But it's clear from the cited sources that this is not referring to children. The example given by Rogan is "But if you’re like 21 years old, and you say to me, should I get vaccinated
". This is even quoted in a footnote in Joe Rogan although weirdly not Joe Rogan Experience.
Perhaps we could also quote what Rogan said in a footnote in the Experience article to make it clear that Joe Rogan is not referring to children, personally I don't see any harm in that. Although IMO even without a quotation, "young, healthy people" doesn't suggest children, it's not the way you'd normally refer to children, especially not 5-11 year olds. Rogan himself (as per our sources) said "if you're a healthy person, and you're exercising all the time, and you're young, and you’re eating well, like, I don't think you need to worry about this.
" which even without him having specified 21, is the way you might talk to a 21 year old, or maybe an older teen, but probably not the way you'd talk to a 14 year old let alone a 5-11 year old.
Per our source Rogan also
but this is not something we comment on.suggested that COVID-19 is not “statistically dangerous for children.”
“I can tell you as someone who has — both my children got the virus. It was nothing,” he continued. “I mean, I hate to say that if someone’s children died from this. I’m very sorry that that happened. I’m not in any way diminishing that. But I'm saying the personal experience that my children had with COVID was nothing.”
Thanks for the replies, evidently I don't have the time to re-address this. SmolBrane ( talk) 17:06, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
This matter seems to be emerging more clearly on the matter of herd immunity, please see my edit here: Talk:Great Barrington Declaration/Archive 6#Herd immunity – Watch this space, POV. Pinging editors here:@ Sumanuil, NadVolum, and Nil Einne:. Please see my related edit here [25] that appears to generate the type of POV fork I'm concerned about. SmolBrane ( talk) 17:04, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
There are few users who are making The Kashmir Files biased and despite many suggestions and request not adhering to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsnb07 ( talk • contribs) 00:42, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I realize this is a touchy subject, but User:Caltraser5 is tearing apart the Moscow article, putting the Ukrainian flag in lieu of the current infobox image, ect. I've tried reverted the Caltraser5's edits, citing NPOV, but the user has been engaging me in an edit war. // A Raider Like Indiana 03:09, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
An RfC has just been closed at Uyghur genocide which has resulted in the first sentence of the article stating that China is committing genocide in wikivoice, when RS indicate this is a highly difficult determination to make, and a controversial claim. Closure review at WP:AN may be the best option, but my concern is less about whether the closer has reached an accurate reflection of the discussion's consensus (I'm not sure they have – but I also think it's clear there isn't a consensus among discussion participants), and more about what should be done when a plurality of editors are supportive for a sentence which other editors firmly believe violates NPOV and appropriate academic caution for a tertiary source such as an encyclopedia (I count myself among this group). I'd appreciate others' thoughts, and suggestions of where next to take this discussion. Jr8825 • Talk 21:57, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
I'm the closer of this discussion, so I would like to make a comment. Firstly, the crux of discussion was, considering a wide range of WP policy (including WP:NPOV and WP:EXCEPTIONAL), whether or not this should be called genocide, and both sides understood the implications of calling this genocide. I saw no comment's that would account as WP:DISCARD and if I did I wouldn't have considered them in the analysis. I completely understand the concerns of The Four Deuces and Masem with some of the ways decisions are made on Wikipedia. I agree this consensus based system is not perfect, it has it's obvious flaws, but it's still the way we get things done around here. When I was closing this discussion I did not make a judgement on what I believed was right, that's not how closers should conduct themselves. I don't have the liberty to decide what we should and shouldn't be doing from the closing end. The community decided on its own will considering all the evidence, the policies, and sourcing that we should indeed call this genocide in wiki voice. That's the plurality, the overwhelming polarity. Over half of editors supported A out of the 6 choices. I personally would have chosen B if I had participated in the discussion, but it would have been grossly improper for me to interject my opinion into the consensus analysis. Iamreallygoodatcheckers ( talk) 04:22, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
does not require anybody to be killed for a genocide to happen: It requires an attempt to physically annihilate a group, which historically has always meant mass killing. The only exception that the Genocide Convention mentions is if extermination is carried out by completely preventing any births. Nothing of the sort has even been alleged against China.
stopping a people speaking their language and practicing their culture is genocide according to that convention: No, it isn't. As the UN page on the convention explains,
To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice(emphasis added).
Taking their children away and raising them in another culture so the previous culture dies out is also genocide: Again, this is just incorrect. As the UN page explains,
Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group(emphasis added).
Having all the people have very bad conditions just because they are of a culture is also genocide.This has nothing to do with genocide as defined by the Genocide Convention, and if this were the definition, the word would lose all its meaning. Almost anything could then be argued to be genocide. One ethnic group has a lower life expectancy? Genocide. One ethnic group is treated unfairly by the justice system and has far higher rates of incarceration? Genocide. It's difficult to think of a major country that would not be guilty of genocide against several ethnic groups at once if this were the definition. But this isn't the definition. Again, genocide is defined by the convention to be a deliberate attempt to physically annihilate a group.
A few simple questions. We have RS say it is a genocide, correct? Some say "it's called a genocide", true? do we have any RS that says it is not genocide? Slatersteven ( talk) 14:26, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
By the common understanding of the word, it is not. ... By accusing it of genocide instead, in the absence of mass murder, America is diminishing the unique stigma of the term.
The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide
But over the past ten years, as documents have been leaked to the press and more Uyghur activists have escaped the country, a bleak picture has emerged, leading some observers—including the U.S.—to classify China’s ongoing human rights abuses as genocide. ... Clarke argues that cultural genocide is a more accurate description for China’s systematic campaign against the Uyghurs.
Human Rights Watch has not documented the existence of the necessary genocidal intent at this time.
There are credible charges of human rights abuses against Uighurs, but those do not per se constitute genocide.
Whether China’s actions against the Uyghurs in Xinjiang deserves the label genocide or not has garnered significant debate in recent years.
The new statistical evidence on forced sterilizations in Xinjiang [in June 2020] has led scholars, media commentators and international barristers to consider the possibility that a full genocide – rather than what had to date been cautiously described by most as a "cultural genocide" – might be taking place. ... Cultural genocide, however, was excluded from the UN Genocide Convention, and destruction of dignity is not considered genocide in international law, which requires the intended physical destruction of members of a group.
From 2017 on, many Western newspapers and magazines ... and the Communist-sponsored Global Times have devoted an extraordinary amount of space to Xinjiang. ... Loaded terminology such as “genocide,” “atrocities,” and “terrorists” frequently characterize these reports, and the sources are either not cited or not fully identified.
In compiling this book, we have been mindful of three key controversies that have held sway in debates about Xinjiang in recent years. The first is whether we should resort to the term ‘genocide’. While particular aspects and effects of the post-2017 system in Xinjiang do meet legal definitions of the term ... the system does not seem to be one of intentional mass death.
cultural genocide(a relatively new term which those sources are careful to define and establish as distinct from traditional definitions of genocide.) I feel that sources like that are an argument against using unqualified genocide in the article voice - after all, using them in a way that erases a distinction or qualification that they make is misusing them as a source. This ties into something else that was mentioned in terms of WP:RFCBEFORE not really being satisfied - this is basically just a rerun of the previous RFC; not many new sources were actually presented. If the people pushing for genocide in the article voice had taken it more slowly and compromised by eg. defining and using the term
cultural genocidein the lead, things might be a bit different. But trying to crowbar in "genocide", unqualified, in the article voice as if it is uncontested fact that this meets the traditional definition of genocide simply does not reflect the sources as a whole. -- Aquillion ( talk) 10:14, 26 February 2022 (UTC)
I just wanted to chime in and say that I disagree with the way the closing was handled largely due to the emphasis placed on what was essentially a vote tallying. I'd like the closer to remember WP:NOTVOTE for the sake of similar RfC's in the future. 50.24.63.63 ( talk) 02:51, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Whether a news article says its genocide or not is irrelevant. If the actions described in the article fall under the definition of genocide then we can say the article adds weight to the idea that genocide is being committed. The actions of the Chinese government, described by the vast majority of articles I've seen, fit the definition provided by the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, signed by 152 nations. Netanyahuserious ( talk) 10:05, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
From a wiki-process standpoint, I think that all is proper. But wrong from a policy standpoint. So this probably shows a weakness in the process. Using an unneeded, value laden, contested characterization (in sources) in the voice of Wikipedia that doesn't add any info the the article. To put it more succinctly, a far reaching claim where sources substantially disagree, and one "side" is put in as fact in the voice of Wikipedia. Despite statements and efforts to the contrary, some RFC's can turn out to be essentially mere opinion polls.North8000 ( talk) 17:48, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
This is a wearisome dispute with a persistent user that I'd like resolved quickly. As of now, I have three disruptive editor notices thanks to this person; at first, I had one for actively daring to reveal this user for their history of edit warrings and edit blocks for incredibly unprofessional and disruptive behaviors. Then, out of nowhere I received three as he'd evidently decided to skip notice two. I have wanted a third party opinion since this morning; I had stated that I would concede, assuming my edits were not found to be in good faith. Since everything in regard to links is available in this section, I will copy-paste it from the Ted Kaczynski talk page:
Evidently, it has come to my attention, thanks to user Mathsci that my edits are continually in violation of WP:NPOV. The assertion is that the "High school" section regarding subject's later confessions of never having a real friend or being singled out in gym class as an adolescent to his brother (in addition to several quotes of peers concerning subject's unkempt, immature condition) disrupts the tone of the overall article. However, if you view the previous section, titled "Childhood," there are several instances of quotes, reflections, and other such ruminations from various people in subject's environment at the time as well.
In fact, my edit seems to be entirely consistent with that of the previous section that discusses various thoughts of family members and his being bullied in contrast, with cited events such as subject being shoved into a locker and his being a misfit even amongst the "eggheads" at Evergreen High. According to this editor, this is not only an extremely biased edit, but highly disruptive with the tone of the WP:FA. He then went on to point out—with poor reasoning and spelling—my predominant edits concerning various serial killer articles on WP, as if that makes his decision in any way credible or valid according to policy. The absolute irony of pointing out my edits, however, is the fact that he consistently and recurrently runs into trouble regarding edit-warring—though it does not apply to WP:BLP articles—before actively removing any opposition in the form of confrontation, something I have never engaged in or had trouble with. Nevertheless, I responded with my arguments which are accessible here, and conveniently collapsed (something he has been known to do with other users before being blocked or cornered into submission) for any passersby. To quote Johnuniq:
"Mathsci is great on developing properly referenced, high quality encyclopedic content, and I have seen Mathsci interact well with other users, even when there is a disagreement. However, once a problem reaches a certain point, Mathsci can switch and adopt an inappropriate approach which involves total annihilation."
Nevertheless, I had made another edit omitting the well-documented opinions of those around subject, only to have them removed once more. Since I refuse to engage in WP:EDITCON, I have been forced to defer to this page to reach a general consensus as per WP:CON of whether or not said content is appropriate for the "High school" section of this article. If you look at my edits, there is nothing to suggest that I have added negatively to subject's reputation through these edits. In truth, there are obvious improvements reverted such as pointing out that subject's father worked at Kaczynski's Sausages, and his actual dealings with his peers at a young age.
If his "unkempt" condition is said to be an exaggeration, that could have been tweaked; in spite of this, the entire contribution is reverted, including the bit concerning Kaczynski's Sausages, edits of the "Childhood" section which are complete improvements and in tandem with the tone of the article content. These reverts are limitations which are at best pernicious and highly disruptive of contributory effort. It feels highly inappropriate and uncouth to confront a particular user like this, but the unreasonable measures taken are so brazen—and poorly written to note—so as to leave me with no choice. If I am wrong, I concede, but I feel that this information is pertinent to the life and crimes of subject.
I want to reach a consensus according to policy, as I am much newer than most to WP anyhow, and this will be tiresome and according to "inappropriate approach" otherwise.
-- Edd Wesson ( talk) 20:00, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
I just read that article and I feel it pushes a mild anti-Czech narrative, especially in the
Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia#Aftermath section. It is mostly small stuff (example:
WP:OR in Slovakia has higher political stability than the Czech Republic. As of 2018, Slovaks have had only four prime ministers since 1998, but the Czechs have had ten.
), though some passages are more egregious (example: (...) followed by a shaky centre-right cabinet, which (...) did not want to adopt the euro because of (...) the Civic Democrats' ideological stance.
). (I also vaguely feel a pro-union / anti-dissolution bias, but I cannot really point to a given sentence.)
There are many "citation needed" tags and I could probably just remove large portions with an edit summary of "don’t revert unless you give a source" but that seems a tad brutal. On the whole, the article is not so bad. Someone with knowledge of the countries (i.e., not me) might be able to easily cut the fluff and source the rest. Tigraan Click here for my talk page ("private" contact) 14:31, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
I have noticed that several new accounts have added promotional material to the China Horse Club article. I think the version I initially created should be returned to. The club is somewhat controversial in horse racing and there is plenty to add about it, but the current version is flat out promotion with mostly unreliable sources. Thriley ( talk) 03:43, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
The article in question is Cancel culture.
I am asking anyone who is interested to please participate in this discussion: Talk:Cancel_culture#WP:SENSATION
This is the diff that is being debated: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Cancel_culture&type=revision&diff=1077199312&oldid=1076998178
The section of the article that was removed was called "Examples of cancel culture as reported in the news."
This is the content that was removed. I support including the content. As of right now, everyone else in the discussion opposes including the content. I would like to hear the opinions of anyone else who might want to participate in the discussion. Thank you. Here is the content that was removed:
Content
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In 2020, Civis Analytics fired David Shor, a data analyst, after he tweeted, "Post- MLK-assasination race riots reduced Democratic vote share in surrounding counties by 2%, which was enough to tip the 1968 election to Nixon. Non-violent protests *increase* Dem vote, mainly by encouraging warm elite discourse and media coverage." Shor's tweet also included a link to a paper by Princeton professor Omar Wasow, which hypothesized that peaceful protests were more effective than violent ones. [1] [2] New York magazine wrote, "At least some employees and clients on Civis Analytics complained that Shor’s tweet threatened their safety." [3] New York magazine also wrote that Shor's firing had caused him to "become a byword for the excesses of so-called cancel culture." [4] PBS mentioned Shor's firing in an article called, "‘Cancel culture’ debate bubbles up in politics and beyond" [5] Politico mentioned Shor's firing in an article called, "How Everything Became ‘Cancel Culture’" [6] In an opinion column for the New York Times, Michelle Goldberg wrote, "One of the more egregious recent examples of left-wing illiberalism is the firing of David Shor." [7] In 2020, the University of Tennessee successfully pressured a newly admitted student to not attend the college, after someone sent the college a video of a private Snapchat conversation which had taken place three years earlier, where the student had said to her friends, “I can drive [racial slur].” The New York Times referred to the university's action as "cancellation," with the word "cancellation" including a link to an older New York Times article called, "Tales From the Teenage Cancel Culture." [8] In February 2021, Disney fired actress Gina Carano from her role on The Mandalorian after she tweeted, " Jews were beaten in the streets, not by Nazi soldiers but by their neighbors.... even by children" and "Because history is edited, most people today don’t realize that to get to the point where Nazi soldiers could easily round up thousands of Jews, the government first made their own neighbors hate them simply for being Jews. How is that any different from hating someone for their political views?" [9] [10] [11] [12] She was dropped by her agent and Hasbro removed her Star Wars action figure from the shelves. [13] The phrase "cancel culture" was cited in reports of her firing. [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] In March 2021, Dr. Seuss Enterprises announced that it would stop publishing six books by Dr. Seuss, which it said included “hurtful” portrayals of cultural stereotypes. [19] Dr. Seuss Enterprises told Associated Press, "These books portray people in ways that are hurtful and wrong." Citing examples, Associated Press wrote, "In And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street, an Asian person is portrayed wearing a conical hat, holding chopsticks, and eating from a bowl. If I Ran the Zoo includes a drawing of two bare-footed African men wearing what appear to be grass skirts with their hair tied above their heads." The same Associated Press article also stated, "The move to cease publication of the books drew immediate reaction on social media from those who called it another example of 'cancel culture.'" [20] References
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Mulva? Gipple? Dolores! ( talk) 18:48, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Would someone mind taking a look at the article on Karim Massimov and mentions of him in the 2022 Kazakh unrest article? The narrative is currently quite speculative in places, which is inappropriate and potentially dangerous given the charges of alleged treason against the individual. For the Massimov article in particular, as a Biography of a Living Person, it is important that the article presents a fair account of all narratives, especially because human rights activists are concerned about the welfare of those arrested in the protests. Ideally I’d prefer to discuss this via email but I do have a list of sources and possible text which might help to make the article more well-rounded; due to how sensitive the situation is I want to check with the Wikipedia community what would work best.
As a starting point a level of page protection would be helpful to ensure no misinformation can be added, but if anyone can assist with some editorial oversight and advice that would be helpful and appreciated. MSturgill ( talk) 11:24, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
I am consistently troubled by user Zefr removing vital public information from the Moderna page. He and another user called Acroterion hound the page and always make vague allegations about the information's lack of neutrality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Surge Of Reason ( talk • contribs) 22:23, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
The Zero COVID article relies heavily on primary sources, and some editors are opposed to covering the due criticism of and opposition to this policy, deleting the Opposition section I created [35], toning down the criticism, and removing POV, BCN and WHO tags appended (and also casting aspersions).
The majority of RS are heavily critical of this policy, in particular to its purported effectiveness as a public health policy, and there is very little scholarship on it. This policy was also cited to "settle the question" about China's alleged undercounting of cases, claiming that this policy works by those countries implementing it [36], which led to a discussion on RSN [37].
Here are a few recent articles questioning China's narrative about the policy and its effectiveness: [38] [39] [40]. My main concern is that critical sources are not being fairly and proportionately represented. Any assistance with this deadlock will be greatly appreciated. LondonIP ( talk) 00:41, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
Sources
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— Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 01:10, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
This is a terrible notice for the reasons said by Shibbole above. The various criticism has been summarised well, with plenty of citations, there is no need to repeatedly mention the same criticism or to attribute them to specific people, when as you have said, many people have criticised the policy. Xoltered ( talk) 02:31, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
As mentioned by Moxy, LondonIP as well as few other editors have been repeatedly making disruptive edits, and I will note that it is not just this article but numerous other articles in which they have done so, typically edit warring to try to get their way. Perhaps as Moxy said, some action should be taken. Xoltered ( talk) 02:31, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
deleting the Opposition section I createdThe opposition section wasn't deleted, it was condensed by me. Before. After. The before version had problems with WP:QUOTEFARM. The after version fixed the issue with quotes and concisely summarized the points made by both supporters and opposers. To write the after section, I simply read and summarized the before section, reusing most of the existing citations. The after version was supported by multiple people and seems to have consensus, as documented at Talk:Zero-COVID#Delete section "Views on the zero-COVID strategy"?. If one checks the page history of zero-COVID, two editors in particular have added POV and "who" tags to this article multiple times over the course of months, over the objections of other editors. This is arguably a slow motion edit war. I find this to be a timesink, and WP:AE may be an option worth exploring. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 04:18, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
Opponents of the zero-COVID strategy argue that a vaccine would be required to end the pandemic, [1] that zero-COVID causes the economy to suffer, [2] [3] that before vaccinations were common, elimination strategies lowered herd immunity, [4] that zero-COVID is not sustainable, [5] and that newer variants such as the omicron variant are so transmissible that the zero-COVID strategy is no longer feasible. [6]
Opposition to the zero-COVID policy[50] fits well with what WP:POVNAMING lays out. My choice was
Scientific Views on the zero-COVID strategy. [51] but I now think Opposition is better as criticism of the policy is not just about the science, but also the social and economic costs - as I explained in the discussion [52]. Any policy of importance will inevitably face some opposition and in the case of Zero COVID, most RS cover the opposition more than they do support. I can move us forward with sources and quotes, but this noticeboard discussion should focus on clarifying the problem and bringing in cooler heads. CutePeach ( talk) 14:08, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
Descriptive titles should be worded neutrally, so as not to suggest a viewpoint for or against a topic, or to confine the content of the article to views on a particular side of an issue (for example, an article titled "Criticisms of X" might be better renamed "Societal views on X")." Indeed, this is not the most aptly applied part of that policy, given it is about entire articles rather than sections. But WP:STRUCTURE says, similarly:
and WP:PROPORTION says: "Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself, may result in an unencyclopedic structure, such as a back-and-forth dialogue between proponents and opponents.[1] It may also create an apparent hierarchy of fact where details in the main passage appear "true" and "undisputed", whereas other, segregated material is deemed "controversial", and therefore more likely to be false. Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections that ignore or fight against each other.
a description of isolated events, quotes, criticisms, or news reports related to one subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic". Similarly, WP:SUMMARY says "
Do not put undue weight into one part of an article at the cost of other parts."LondonIP's suggestion is not advisable per these WP:PAGs. We should not create a POVCOATRACK of various people's negative opinions of the policy, but rather summarize the overall criticisms and praises in a views section in proportion to their coverage in our WP:BESTSOURCES. If anyone here disagrees about the current proportionality, that would be where we should move forwards in discussion, not in continually reverting against consensus and disruptively inserting disputed material to force it into the article. Suggest drafts which are, in your opinion, more proportional, and provide evidence of this proportionality. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 14:10, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
as RS cover opposition more than support for the policy- Do you have a source review which has evidence for this? Including the fact that different qualities of sources (isolated news opinion articles (critical and low quality) vs academic review papers (laudatory and high quality)) do not recapitulate this trend? — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 14:30, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
There should be a section with an appropriate title covering the opposition and criticism and explaining it in greater detail.WP:CSECTION is an essay, but it is common practice to follow it around here. Long before I edited in the COVID topic area, as a newer editor, I tried adding a criticism section to articles a couple times and got reverted. It is best practice to present positive and negative views side-by-side, not separately. Once this thread simmers down and an uninvolved person weighs in, I am confident they will arrive at the same conclusion. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 15:22, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join in at Talk:Chinese government response to COVID-19 § RFC: How should we include allegations of undercounting?. — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 12:54, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
The Kashmir Files is a film made on a real incident of the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus and two editors, namely Kautilya3 and TrangaBellam have made edits full of bias and not keeping aside their political bias about this film. A big violation of WP: NPOV
Wikipedia administrators need to check into this highly open violations of not one but numerous violations of Wikipedia guidelines in this article. I hope strict action is taken against these users. Krish | Talk To Me 07:57, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
They have used a Film companion quote which does not have a source.- The link will be added pending a whitelist.
They had removed the earlier positive reviews- A single review from someone who is neither a film-critic nor has reviewed any other film before, was removed after discussion. The mere existence of a review does not bind us into carrying it.
highlighted the negative ones now- How?
They even adopt "top critic" status of a critic on Rotten Tomatoes to decide whose views matter the most on Wikipedia.- I don't think so. For example, Shubhra Gupta (the only RT Top Critic, who has reviewed the film) is mentioned in the second paragraph of the reception section, after four positive reviews in the first paragraph!
positive reviews are restricted to 2 words- Factually inaccurate; read the first paragraph of the reception section for yourself. How can any review be restricted to 2 words?
WP: QUOTEFARM for the negative ones- Factually inaccurate; read the second and third paragraph of the reception section for yourself.
reception section does not talk about the cinematography, acting, writing but is full of only its perceived politics.- Blame the reviewers. How can I help?
I guess Germans will claim the same about Schindler's List- Welcome to the alternate universe of Hindutva.
They use two reviews from same publication group.- Examples? Adding a disclaimer that Indian Express and New Indian Express are different entities.
When I removed an unsourced claim in the article.- That line did not need a source, as evident from a perusal of the well-sourced Reception section. TrangaBellam ( talk) 08:32, 14 March 2022 (UTC)
My name is Ashley and I work for a law firm called Hagens Berman. I have raised some concerns about the page at Talk:Hagens Berman regarding un-cited claims, citing an op-ed for criticisms, citing one source for half the page, etc. The main author of the page (@ Marquardtika:) said they wanted other editors to weigh in. My hope is an editor or two here might be willing to do so at Talk: Hagens Berman. Thank you in advance for any contributions to the discussion. AshleyK1990 ( talk) 19:16, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
Something about the tone of this one doesn’t sit right. That and the first source on the page being a dead link from a religious site. Hyperbolick ( talk) 12:39, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
A third editor has recommended that we request help in resolving an issue with regards to the persecution of Harari people on the Haile Selassie Wikipedia page (section four on the talk page). I personally believe that context should be added as the Emperor is relentlessly slandered on the pretext of tribal and ethnic oppression for political reasons even to this day (see The Romantic Rewriting of Haile Selassie's Legacy Must Stop, Woyane rebellion and the Tigray War for example). Omission of crucial context in the opening paragraph is a subtle yet obvious ploy to promote a political narrative and goes against basic neutrality guidelines in my opinion. The sentence in question is: "During his rule the Harari people were persecuted and many left the Harari Region." [1]
I proposed the following edits which were all consequently rejected:
I've notified the parties involved, any assistance with this deadlock will be greatly appreciated thanks for all you do. Czar Petar I ( talk) 13:11, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
I agree with the above proposals, source backs this. YonasJH ( talk) 12:14, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
References