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This article is protected for the second time over the inclusion of the following sentence (and whether it should be handled in other ways):
Vladimir Putin wrote a letter to Tadić a week before the election, in which he wished Tadić a happy 50th birthday and all the very best in his activities for “the welfare of our friends, Serbia.” [1]
The core question is whether the placement of this sentence in a section on his re-election, here (and in context), is undue and synthesis, implying political endorsement.
Additional input would be most welcome in helping to establish consensus. The primary individuals involved seem to have strong feelings about the subject of the article and certainly about one another. Two others have offered opinions but seem to have left the building, and the primary individuals have moved on to arguing over whether or not that constitutes "consensus." I'm not in position to offer an opinion, having come in as an uninvolved admin via the ANI listing. A previous listing at the content noticeboard evidently attracted little notice, perhaps because the sole respondent thought the parties were amicable and might work something out. I'd really appreciate feedback on the content issue at that talk page. We can't direct people to dispute resolution if dispute resolution doesn't work. :) -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 16:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
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He doesn't dispute the translation, he just says that the word fag is too strong that he said homosexuals but he didn't use the word "homoseksualci", he used the strongest possible word for homosexuals - "pederri" and as for the rest of it like gay parades, insults to editors and slander on Tadic, it was written in English so there is no confusion there whatsoever. In any way it is all completely irrelevant to the issue and he should be warned. User No such user subsequently provide a handful of references proving that this is relevant and that it was covered by media so there is no original research and that it did cause a political stir by prompting reaction from all of the political leaders in Serbia so that it is definitely not an irrelevant event. It is also not part of the reelection campaign as Vladimir Putin didn't take part in the reelection campaign though it could be mentioned in indirect manner as it was discussed in that light by all of the political leaders in Serbia (as it can bee seen in links by No such user). Even though consensus is not a poll but arguments, you should mention PaxEquilibrium who wanted to include this in the article but was repeatedly attacked by LAz17, even a year after the event when PaxEquilibrium distanced himself from discussion. LAz17 has proven that he highly dislikes Tadic and that he sees that this piece of information is in the article to change election results, he talked about Tadic being corrupt and giving money to "fags" etc. etc. This is a politically painted dispute, LAz17 dislikes Boris Tadic and wants to remove information that he finds to be beneficial to Tadic.-- Avala ( talk) 18:10, 12 October 2009 (UTC) Anyway, this wont get us anywhere. We need some proposals to end the dispute, so here I go first. The disputed text reads:
I am now, in light of new refs provided by No such user, proposing the compromise solution:
Let's try to move from here, OK? Any input? If yes, then go here where you can respond, give your ideas and proposals, work on this so we can move on from the edit war. -- Avala ( talk) 18:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC) References
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Hello, just want to point your attention to the article WorkTime. I think LenaPro is working for this company in Canada and pushing it all the way on Wiki. 84.148.115.148 ( talk) 19:05, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
I have tried to post edits to tone down the rather dramatic language in these articles. They are written in a manner than advocates and promotes a particular college sports team rather than a neutral reporting of the facts. All of my edits are immediately reverted without comment. I then posted detailed concerns on the talk page and referenced them by posting the {{POV}} and {{cleanup}} templates at the top of the article, which ask that the templates not be deleted until the dispute is resolved. The comments have drawn a response from one editor, but have been generally ignored, and the template are quickly reverted without comments. The one conversation I did have on the talk page (after several deletions) was informative (my edit to change the sentence to #3 was changed back to #1):
The editors that the two articles attract are unaware of what constitutes a NPOV encyclopedic tone. Could some disinterested editors please take a look? Racepacket ( talk) 16:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
After the above comments, as well as after leaving my concerns on the article's talk page, all of the edits which I made today to the page were reverted without discussion:
Note that even minor edits, like changing [[Orange Bowl (game)]] to [[Orange Bowl (game)|Orange Bowl]] were reverted en mass. Even adding names to references so that they could be used at a second location on the article were reverted. Bottom line this diff which omit the 20 intermediate edits show a complete reverting of all changes. So, the question is does the article meet NPOV standards, and what can be done about a pair of editors who have massively and systematically reverted many editors who have tried to improve the article? [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]
Thanks Racepacket ( talk) 21:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
We need more eyes on these articles, because the involved editors do not acknowledge any distinction between fact and opinion. Thanks. Racepacket ( talk) 13:29, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Today, User:PassionoftheDamon added the unsourced sentence "Nevertheless, the rivalry remains incredibly intense, with many Hurricane fans still considering Florida a more 'hated' rival than Florida State." I believe that this is an opinion and very POV. It is very difficult to compare the "intensity" of rivalries, and rivalries must be reciprocal. It is very POV to discuss UM's "hatred" of U of F, rather than the feelings between the two schools. This is written from the point of view of the UM campus and not from Wikipedia's neutral vantage point. It is also unsourced and probably not productive to work to reshape into something encyclopedic. I also suspect that over 95% of the people at the two schools do not "hate" at all. Do other editors have some wisdom on this? Racepacket ( talk) 17:42, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
For many months editors I see as on opposite sides have battled over Sikh extremism. As I see it, pro-Sikhs have attempted to have the article killed as offensive, buried it in trivia, and generally obstructed. Anti-Sikhs have attempted to add every bit of violence, bad news, or extremism that presents Sikhism in a bad light, and generally obstructed. Both sides have used slanting, selective use of sources, citations of information to entire encyclopedia sets, or entire books, specious sources.
The edit warring, at least, has died down, but the insertion of what I see as off-topic content on both extremes has resulted in almost every section being flagged offtopic.
It is my hope that new eyes may see a way to move forward. I had proposed an idea for a multi-way merge, but it is very clear it won't be acceptable to either of the identifiable parties at opposite poles.- Sinneed 21:09, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Generally pro-tort-reform, fails to address 1) contentiousness of tort-reform, 2) represent both sides of tort-reform equally/even-handedly. I modified the opening of the article, and would be willing to work on tightening the rest of it, but want some feedback before investing too much time on it.
Currently the opening paragraph reads:
Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants,[1] also known as the "McDonald's coffee case," is a 1994 product liability lawsuit that became a flashpoint in the debate in the U.S. over tort reform after a jury awarded $2.86 million to the plaintiff. The trial judge reduced the total award to $640,000, and the parties settled for a confidential amount before an appeal was decided. The case is arguably noteworthy primarily because popular understanding of the facts strongly support one side of the politically contentious issue of tort reform in the United States.
I would probably delete references to "popular understanding" altogether in the opening summary. I would re-label "Similar Lawsuits" as "Criticism", with a pared down reference version of some of the text currently in "Similar Lawsuits" and a link to tort reform. I would also add a "Response to Criticsm", again with a tort reform, and with reference to disparities between popular understanding and actual facts of the case.
I suspect once I was satisfied with the neutrality of this particular article I would next look for concerns with the tort reform article itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phaedral ( talk • contribs) 20:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks to both Itsmejudith and Ravensfire. I would actually be most comfortable omitting "popular understanding" and also the related cases and reference to tort reform. The facts of the case stand on their own.
It's news to me that wikipedia avoids "criticism" sections. Seems to me I rather expect to see them here on anything contentious. But that's as a casual user. I haven't done much editing. Phaedral ( talk) 20:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
There is no controversy section to this article. Voices who were opposed to the reforms of Bredesen seem to have been squashed. I request a team look at Tenncare to determine if a violiation of Neutrality has occured. Also the article to me anyway, reads like a campaign ad for Governor Bredesen.
Thank you
Magnum Serpentine ( talk) 12:38, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I'm here to seek some outside feedback on an alternative medicine article, colloidal silver. The input must be from someone not involved with fringe theories and someone without an opinion on alternative medicine therapies.
What I am calling into question is the following paragraph:
"Colloidal silver is currently marketed for internal and external use as an alternative medical remedy though there is no scientific evidence to support its effectiveness in vivo.[1] Some in vitro studies demonstrate an anti-bacterial effect of electrically generated silver ions,[2][3][4] although a study of a colloidal silver solution marketed on the Internet showed no such antimicrobial activity.[5]"
There are two things here that I feel are absolute POV pushing by the editors that frequent fringe medicine articles.
I'll start with the simple one:
"Some in vitro studies demonstrate an anti-bacterial effect of electrically generated silver ions,[2][3][4] although a study of a colloidal silver solution marketed on the Internet showed no such antimicrobial activity.[5]"
There are also about half a dozen more sources backing up the first claim. Ref [5] is the only reference that contradicts the rest. I'm trying to find the guideline/policy involving this, but it basically states that when the clear majority of studies side on one side, chances are that the single contradictory study was a one off, and should not be included. I have no objection to the study being included. What I have an objection to is "some", which gives the impression of "Some do, but most do not", when the opposite is true (Most do, but here is one that does not).
Is the word Some' appropriate in this case?
The second is more complicated.
"Colloidal silver is currently marketed for internal and external use as an alternative medical remedy though there is no scientific evidence to support its effectiveness in vivo.[1]"
The wording for this is taken directly, word-for-word, from reference [1]. What I dispute is the neutrality of source 1, and therefore the neutrality of the sentence that is on wikipedia. It is undisputed that the reality is that no studies have been performed at all, as opposed to studies that have negative conclusion (which do not exist). However, editors dispute that is A) That is not the scientific method, and B) It must follow the source EXACTLY!!!!!!>!>!!, to which I disagree as A) the scientific method is for scientists, not the general public who will be reading the article, and B) the source clearly weaselly words the sentence to give the impression that many studies have come out that concluded it was ineffective. I believe the sentence should read:
"Colloidal silver is currently marketed for internal and external use as an alternative medical remedy, though there has been no scientific research to conclude its effectiveness in vivo.[1]"
Thoughts? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 21:01, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
False dichotomy being cited here. The studies which purport to show anti-bacterial effect do not conclude that the use of colloidal silver as marketed by alt med outlets is justified. The only study which actually looks at the colloidal silver as an alternative medicine per se is the one referenced. Following WP:MEDRS and WP:ASTONISH, I think it may even be justified to remove the first clause entirely since its connection to the product is not established by reliable sources. ScienceApologist ( talk) 14:13, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
(OD) The cabal accusations and misrepresentations of Stephan's alcohol argument are not at all helpful. And careful what is called vandalism: there is reasonable debate as to whether those sources are pertinent to the article taken as a whole, so either adding or reverting them should be deemed above intentionally damaging the article.
As I see it, using these sources is arguably beyond the scope of the intent of the article, and including them is poor writing due to undue emphasis on a chemical property quite out of the article's context (at best) and weaselly and tendentious NPOV circumvention at worst. The sources might be useful for demonstrating that there is (or was) a plausible mechanism for efficacy, but to suggest they support that the product is effacacious is to misunderstand (at best) both the science and the scope of this project. Baccyak4H ( Yak!) 19:01, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
A compromise that would be acceptable to me would be to separate the two sentences as below. In this way the studies are not used to support the use of colloidal silver medically.
''Most in vitro studies demonstrate an anti-bacterial effect of electrically generated silver ions,[2][3][4] although a study of a colloidal silver solution marketed on the Internet showed no such antimicrobial activity.[5]"
Colloidal silver is currently marketed for internal and external use as an alternative medical remedy though there is no scientific evidence to support its effectiveness in vivo.[1]''
Stephan Shulz has mentioned above 'the well-known antibacterial effect of silver ions in vitro'. It won't be 'well known' anymore if its excised from Wikipedia, as is being attempted here. DHawker ( talk) 22:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
I have for several years had a great deal of concern about the neutrality of the articles on climate and particularly the global warming article. Realistically I'm not sure that much can be done, because by its very nature, the kind of people who are interested enough in the environment to read up on global warming and altustic enough to want to edit wikipedia, are not going to be the kind of petrol heads who are disinclined to believe the flaky evidence about manmade warming. Furthermore, the "climate science" arena seems to be populated by a pretty close knit group of people and even with the best of intentions, such a group is liable to gang up (even without intending it) on outsiders who don't share their views. And, finally, whilst I've done enough research of the subject myself to know that the article is highly biased, to be honest it really isn't worth my time engaging in a fight which I've no chance of winning, so like a lot of editors before me, I have found more interesting things to do with my life.
So, what can be done? Once you have a group that set rules such as "if it isn't peer reviewed by our 'friends'(my belief!)" then it can't go in the article, then it becomes impossible to add any content even if it comes from reputable organisations like the BBC. And, when a group of editors become so powerful in a subject that they can literally dictate what gets in and what does not, then anyone with a contrary view becomes frustrated and finds other things to do, leaving the article with a dedicated but one sided group of editors, dictating the rules, supporting each other's views and generally excluding anyone who would help balance the neutrality of the article.
Personally, I think "something ought to be done", but as I'm not really willing to waste the days and days of effort ... no what would be the point it's impossible even to get simple factually well sourced statements like "it is currently cooling" in any form into the article so there's not a hope of being able to seriously rebalance the article. What can be done? 88.110.76.120 ( talk) 12:57, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
{undent} I'm pretty up to date on the issues surrounding the science behind the confirmation of human-caused climate change. I'll put it on watch to make sure that WP:DUE is being adhered to. Simonm223 ( talk) 15:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
'Arrrrggggghhhhhhh' ... what do I find when I turn to read the news? Something called the "Christian Science Monitor" [8] published a few hours ago quoting the BBC as saying the world is cooling. To be honest, scientifically its pretty insignificant that we've had cooling this century, it's not a big deal, if manmade warming were true there would be such periods, but as a bench mark for whether Wikipedia is honestly reporting the subject it shows only one thing WIKIPEDIA IS NOT BEING NEUTRAL ON THE SUBJECT and I could never support an organisation that knowingly misleads the public. 88.110.76.120 ( talk) 17:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Editors William M. Connolley, Kim D. Petersen and Ratel are trying to include a section in the biography of Australian Professor of Atmospheric Sciences, Garth Paltridge, that appears to have WP:OR and WP:SYN problems and more seriously seems to violate WP:NPOV via WP:WEIGHT to make a guilt by assocation connection with the Lavoisier Group.
I am unable to summarise their side of the story since I am just being reverted without discussion.
Reference Talk:Garth_Paltridge#Lavoisier_and_WP:OR.2C_WP:SYN.2C_and_WP:WEIGHT_problems. Alex Harvey ( talk) 10:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
From the summary, I don't see any side. You've said it breaks lots of policies, but not how or why. Please justify your opinion. Also, please don't tell other people they aren't fit to be on wikipedia. That is grossly uncivil, which is a policy too. Verbal chat 16:12, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
On the topic of solid oxide fuel cell
SOFC, a users Jarmil and 130.192.50.18 from the Politecnico di Torino (potentially the user's current workplace) repeatedly quote their own research. While that is ok to a degree, the topic is too broad, and research performed by many scientists, not just one, to be singularly represented by references from one single person. Previous attempts at making the range of research presented more unbiased have been reverted by user Jarmil. Future changes to the text cannot be made if the text is too biased. Not sure if anything can be done about it except wait until the broader research community changes the text over the next years. However, since Wikipedia is not a self-advertising center for individuals, it might be humbly suggested that this user account is looked at.
In fact, the edits are persistent throughout most wikipedia sites containing the word "fuel cell", e.g.
Fuel_cell, where user Jarmil entered dozens of research papers by Milewk. J and Mill. A, making this page also biased. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
S.Nimanan (
talk •
contribs) 19:10, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
A number of sources with various Hamas officials and Arab news agencies have been presented that show "Gaza M/massacre" being used as to refer to the Gaza War in both Arabic and English sources. Many Arab news agencies used different names such as "War on Gaza" or "Assault on Gaza". Another source, which the RS/N shows consensus for being a reliable source, explicitly says that the conflict is "Known in the Arab world as the Gaza Massacre" [9] and another says "what the Arab world has called 'the Gaza massacre'." [10]. Is it a violation of NPOV to say that the conflict is "known in the Arab world as the Gaza Massacre" and is it undue weight to include it in the lead in bold as an alternative Arabic name? nableezy - 15:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The list of living supercentenarians (people aged over 110) is split into verified people (almost always by the GRG [11]), and unverified people (all of whom have a link to a reliable source about their claim). The GRG lists around 70-80 living supercentenarians, but also recognises that there are likely to be 300-400 supercentenarians in the world (scroll to the bottom of the last link). The dispute surrounds the claims section. Currently claims are rejected unless they are from one of the 67 countries listed as a high income economy by the World Bank. However, many claims have been validated by the GRG and Guinness World Records even though they were not from one of these 67 countries. In fact the World's oldest person a few years ago, Maria Capovilla, aged 116, herself was not from a high income economy. I believe removing these based on their country goes against NPOV and damages the global scope and neutrality of the article. Another suggestion put forward was to only list claims from countries that have had validated supercentenarians in the past. This however is biased against smaller countries and also contradicts NPOV. For example, a country such as Iceland is unlikely to have many supercentenarians because of its low population. The oldest Icelandic person ever was 109, though that of course does not mean that no-one will be 110 in the future. The bottom line is that there are two sections to the article: a verified section, and an unverified section. However claims from certain countries are not considered either because they are deemed by some users to be either highly likely to be false, or highly likely to never be validated (both of which strike me as a violation of WP:BALL, and the first one also of NPOV). SiameseTurtle ( talk) 21:01, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
To address that, I've proposed we list unverified claims from countries with previous verified claims. Canada Jack ( talk) 20:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
There is an ongoing content dispute at StandWithUs concerning this edit
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=StandWithUs&diff=322009752&oldid=322004043
in short, editor ShamWow is of the opinion that mentioning the result of the investigation of this NGOs funding as published by Inter Press Service would be POV, whereas I am of the opinion that results of an investigation by a WP:RS such as IPS, worded after the article publishing the same, are inherently according to Wikipedia policies. Please comment both on the basic question, and also possible suggestions on improving the wording of the text to better comply with Wiki policies are welcome. The IPS story is run on at least five other blogs/outlets to which I have links. -- Dailycare ( talk) 20:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Once again, article is WP:Red flag - surprising claim that is made nowhere else - WP:Undue - no other source has seen fit to print these accusations - and WP:NPOV - Wikipedia does not assert IPS claims. IPS didn't "reveal" anything, it was alleged. Based on these arguments, this article is not appropriate to be sourced and should be removed. Criticism of SWU should be included, but this article is not adequate per Wikipedia policies. ShamWow ( talk) 21:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The part about History in article Brazil was recently completly erased and replaced with new texts by user Lecen. Besides the fact that all the History part was erased (which is not allowed, since it was sourced), the new texts look really biased to me. The new texts clearly show a positive view of the user about Monarchy and a negative view about Republic. The Emperor Pedro II reign part only talks about good points and ommits the negative points of that government, and the user clearly attacks the Republic there. A discussion about this is going on at the talk page of Brazil article. [13] I hope more people may give their opinion about these recent changes, which seem obviously pro-monarchist to me. Opinoso ( talk) 00:46, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
In fact, there was already a part about History in that article, which was small, sourced and neutral. The user lecen erased the entire History and replaced it with these news Monarchists changes, which are too big for an article which is about Brazil, and not its history, and it's non-neutral as well. May I reverse the article to its original History part? Opinoso ( talk) 13:23, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The Wikipedia entry about me ("Henry Gould") included very minor errors about my activities & publications in the 1990s. I corrected these errors. I also added a few external links to relevant information about me (an online interview, an essay on my work). I do not plan to make further corrections to my entry unless absolutely necessary. I hope the warning notice about "conflict of interest" will be removed. Thank you. Hhgould ( talk) 18:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The article Leopoldo Galtieri says in the lead that he was president of Argentina "during the last military dictatorship" and refers to the Intelligence Battalion 601 as a "death squad". I changed that to "during the National Reorganization Process" (name given to that government) and "The special military intelligence service Intelligence Battalion 601". However, a user reverted the editions and says at the talk page that such words would be euphemisms and that Words that label wouldn't apply in this case. MBelgrano ( talk) 18:17, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
A number of editors are trying to make a statement of fact regarding the political leanings of this news aggregator. This is in spite of the fact that the majority of reliable sources delcare Real Clear Politics to be a non-partisan or Nuetral source of information. I introduced a compromise to best state their viewpoint, but this too has been reverted to a highly biased point of view.
I have tried to discuss this at length on the talk page and have included a list of all the sources I could find to point out thier the political leanings. Please tell me how this does not violate NPOV. Arzel ( talk) 18:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Basically it comes down to this. One person has a source that calls them conservative. I have many sources that call them "Non-Partisan" or "Neutral" yet the only source which can be included in the lead is the one that calls them conservative? How in the HELL is that not a biased point of view?
Arzel (
talk) 18:18, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
(out) Do you have any evidence that when RCN is called independent it means independent of American conservative ideology and not independent of the Republican Party? No one is trying to discredit the information they provide. Their stories are after all reprints. Publications may be partisan or have a point of view yet still have a reputation for accuracy, like British broadsheets. The Four Deuces ( talk) 00:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Furthermore, since when is WP in the business of using opinion as a method of definition? Media Matters for America, which is a liberal/progressive group is not defined as such. They are allowed to use their own definition of themselves, and editors have attempted to make that definition on that article lede. The liberal bias is quite apparent when supposedly conservative organization labeled almost universally yet liberal organization are not. Arzel ( talk) 14:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Additional Info on Cult of Personality (this is missing in the article) [16] [17] [18] & BBC 4 [19]
Communist propaganda within the Former Yugoslavia:
The Yugoslav Communist state propaganda machine shared much with the Soviet Union. The Soviet format was imposed and then slightly modified. The Yugoslav Communist state used youth indoctrination [20], which were all too similar to the Soviet Union [21] and the People's Republic of China. Communist political, historical and philosophical courses were all part of general education. They can be found in any Yugoslav primary school textbook from the 1970s. Media and arts were used as a powerful means of propaganda and were all placed under heavy censorship. Josip Broz Tito was the main subject. Images, monuments, towns, street names, endless awards were given and a never ending production of books, films and poetry were created. Financially a huge amount of resources were used to keep the Communist propaganda and political activities running on a daily basis. Glorification and hero worship of the leader Josip Broz were a constant diet for the former peoples of Yugoslavia.
Most of Josip Broz’s images, monuments, town names and street names are now being removed. This started after the fall of the Berlin Wall and after the break up of Yugoslavia.
Summary: The Josip Broz Tito article represents old views from the cold war era and by default wikipedia is pushing a political agenda. This information is now part of the Josip Broz Tito article, thus making the article biased and lacking a NPOV. Also there are parts of history from that era and region that are missing.
Administrators should give attention to these issues? Qualified references such as Encyclopaedia Britannica and BBC history [22]are being presented here and are met with silence. Summary of the other qualified professional authors, who have expressed a more current scholarly view:
I have come up with a legacy''' chapter. This might give the article more of a modern scholarly feel. "One of Josip Broz Tito’s legacies was to bring peace and stability to the region, be it in Soviet style governance (following years after World War Two). In subsequent years he and his government started political reform and came up with their own brand of socialism. This was created hand in hand with his cult of personality. At first, it seemed that things were working out but in the end the economic political decisions that were made were flawed. Josip Broz’s style of economic socialism just could not compete in the world economic climate. Yugoslavia’s economic situation from the late 1970s onwards worsened with every year passing. With ethnic tension not resolved these were some of the factors that contributed to Tito’s Yugoslavia breaking up. Since then events such as Bleiburg [25] [26] and Foibe massacres [27] [28] that happened during the last days of WW2 have come to re-surface, which have now cast a dark shadow [29] [30]over his military leadership. Nevertheless at the time of his death he was much loved by the majority of the citizens of Yugoslavia"
Thank you. Sir Floyd ( talk) 11:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
That is funny, because those are my exact thoughts about Direktor. Defaming an historical figure, please, he is a politician. Where I come from politicians are constantly scrutinised. Tito was a leader & leaders have to be accountable. Sorry, but to me it's just old Communist rhetoric. Maybe coming from a different cultural background is causing the friction. You see from were I'm standing, Director is POV-pushing on a far great scale and sources for the Tito article are very questionable. Comments like " your not a native English speaker" doesn't help either. Maybe Wikipedia is just not set up for these type of intercultural interactions. Silly POV, cluttering the page with piles of useless text, more insults from Mr Director? His point of view is less clutter. Sure that's fine with me. Sir Floyd ( talk) 14:32, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Here is more information that mass murder was carried out by Tito and the Partisans [35]. (I’m hoping that the Google Translate is working here) [36] [37] [38]. These events are inhuman to the extreme. It should have been mentioned in Josip Broz Tito article. It would make it less bias. They are factual events. Please :) look into them, as I said before, I'm not making this stuff up (have a heart). Regards Sir Floyd ( talk) 03:26, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Addtional References:
Sir Floyd ( talk) 09:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Communist crimes: 100,000 Victims in 581 Mass Graves
In Slovenia, three basic books came out needed for the study of communist crimes in the immediate post-war period. It specifies graves where liquidation and execution of prisoners of war were carried out in its territory.
This is a report by the Commission of the Government of the Republic of Slovenia for testing grave sites under the leadership of Jože Dežman and the historian Mitja Ferenc's works of the"Hidden in his Father Zakrito" and "“Prikrita Grobišča 60 let po Koncu Druge Svetovne Vojne”. 'The report of the Commission of the Government specifies the number of mass graves and victims and their nationality.
In this collection, in Slovenia, there was discovered and detected 581 mass graves in which, the author estimates about 100 000 victims in total. According to the research of Slovenian and Croatian historians, Partisans in Slovenia liquidated most of the Ustasa and home guard units. The Croats accounted for between 50 to 80 thousands casualties.
Note: Jože Dežman is a Slovenian historian. He is currently the director of the National Museum of Contemporary History in Ljubljana. [51]
Factual evidence (above) has emerged that the Dictator Josip Broz Tito (the Commander of all Yugoslav Partisans/Communists during WW2) and his comrads were responsible for these Communist War Crimes.
Wikipedia has an article about this individual which just seems to gloss over the all above mentioned events. There can be no buck passing here or omission of the whole truth. We have 100 000 victims for heaven sakes! Wikipedia is just pushing the point of view of a group of editors (political, in this case). This is not encyclopedic work, pure and simple.
Is Wikipedia providing a perfect vehicle for propaganda of this type.? Is Wikipedia taking on a darker tone? Where are the ethical & moral issues involved in creating a feel good story about Josip Broz a Croatian born in Austro-Hungarian Empire, now Croatia? What can one conclude from the wall of silence that is present here? As they say "silence can speak louder than words" These issues deserve some feedback if Wikipedia has a humanitarian side to it, preferably from someone who is impartial and educated in these matters.
The article should have a NPOV tag on it.The editors who wrote this article simply won't allow additional edits that reflect the whole story. Sir Floyd ( talk) 02:05, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi. I'm a new participant trying to learn the way of Wiki. My entry on Lynn Vincent got tagged as not neutral, and I changed all the language noted. But the notice remains on the entry. I've asked the editor twice to explain why, and have waited three days. Is this delay customary? Is there an assumption still that the entry is biased? If the notice remains because of the discussion about "ghostwriter" versus "collaborator" or "collaborative writer," that to me indicates an unwillingness to accept the publishing industry's use of terms. It's not a choice based on pro- or con-Vincent (or pro- or con-Palin). I'm using the term "collaborator" because Vincent has her name on her books, or in the case of the soon-to-be-launched Sarah Palin memoir, Vincent was announced as her co-writer from the start. A ghostwriter by definition -- regardless of how the term is misused in various media outlets -- is not named. Help? Akp623 ( talk) 20:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Their is an article concerning the above; recently it has been updated to include information regarding 'pedges of allegiance' towards its self proclaimed leader Brian Tamaki. I suspect these updates have, in the main, been by supporters of this dangerous individual (I know that isn't quite an NPOV!!)
Tamaki and his organisation have been widely criticised within the media as a church with a cult like status. I note that there is little (if any) reference to this within the article; this article reads like an advertisement for their work and does not have any information on the many controversies surrounding this organisation.
I believe the article requires placing in a section of Wikipedia where editing is limited or moderated (similar to other areas that will be subject to vandalism)
Username Ianguy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.97.23.22 ( talk) 02:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
The following article may have been created for purposes of self-promotion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_Van_Brummelen
The subject of the article may lack sufficient notability to warrant inclusion in the Wikipedia.
Furthermore, it appears that this article was created by an editor who has created other pages at "Quest University" - a small, newly established, private university where the subject of the article is employed.
Hence, there is evidence that suggests that this article, and possibly others, represent abuse of of the Wikipedia for purposes of advertising the newly established private university and/or it's employees. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.11.253.66 ( talk) 03:50, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
LTSally postings on the Jehovah's Witness pages, discussions, and on his personal webpage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:LTSally on the Jehovah's Witness pages violates the Neutral point of view policy. He is openly involved in opposing the work of Jehovah's Witnesses. He also monopolizes the editing process and will not allow any changes other than his own. The page has basically become his page, along with some supporters. He makes comments in his web page which are slanderous against Jehovah's Witnesses, in the legal term of the word referring to Jehovah's Witnesses as,
"a claustrophobic, sycophantic, incestuous community," "an intrusive, insidious, malevolent power — of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society." arrant nonsense." "the Watch Tower organization is the manipulative, controlling, tyrannical and unforgiving beast it is today. Through those books — and only those books — emerge the strange, breathtaking and sometimes shameful history the organization has whitewashed and distorted in its own publications"
I'm no expert on mind control techniques, but it sounds like the Witnesses employ a whole system of them. Close off access to outside criticism. Quash curiosity. Punish internal criticism. Establish an emotional dependence. Expel, isolate and silence malcontents and dissidents. And badger members to relentlessly preach, preach, preach the message
"Quote them back to those who place pressure on you to remain in the grip of the Watch Tower Society."
"the senseless parroting of stock phrases and ideas and the smugness of Witnesses about their own religion and their arrogant, derisive dismissal of the lifestyles and life choices of non-Witnesses"
All of these accustations are false, and also are slanderous. I feel that LTSally should not be allowed to contribute any work to the Jehovah's Witnesses pages or participate in its discussions under that or any other name. There are one or two others on the Jehovah's Witness page who also violate the neutral point of view. There is nothing wrong with posting shortcomings of Jehovah's Witnesses, if these are taken in a balanced way and in overall context, but the work of RTSally on the Jehovah's Witness pages is both not neutral and slanderous. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naturalpsychology ( talk • contribs) 09:21, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't even know where to start because I don't know why I'm not neutral... Please some body help me—Preceding unsigned comment added by Shchoe ( talk • contribs)
The subsection on the EU ban now includes a statement saying: Critics of the EU's actions say that the bill did not mention or refer to any metrics that quantify the Canadian seal hunt as being any more inhumane than the accepted, legal slaughter of animals in the EU, [1] [2] [3] as millions of animals are slaughtered annually in the EU for food, fur [4], and entertainment. [5]
I think that it sould say: The Canadian prime minister, Stephen Harper has argued that there was no reason for the seal industry to be singled out for discriminatory treatment by the EU or anyone else. [6] [7]
The statement at the bottom is a rewording of the link in the reference whereas I can't seem to find a source for the above text.-- U5K0 ( talk) 16:05, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Problem already solved. thanks anyway--
U5K0 (
talk) 15:25, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Under "Deployments, the entry for Novell eDirectory states that "According to IDC, eDirectory is used in over 80% of Fortune 1000 companies."
The citation for this is on the Novell site in their marketing material ("Why Choose Novell eDirectory?"), which seems to cross the line on neutrality. Also, I was unable to confirm this number with a quick google search... the only references I was able to find were circa 2000.
I suggest that this may need removal or revision with current data. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sage sam ( talk • contribs) 16:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I am mediating a dispute on the article Gibraltar. I have a NPOV question. In the opinion of this noticeboard, which statement is more NPOV?
For the purposes of this question, please assume that the only question is NPOV. RS and such will be addressed elsewhere. --- Irbisgreif-( talk | e-mail)-( contribs) 19:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
There have been multiple issues at English Defence League. Most of these are minor being based on a word here, there general tone, etc. I have tried listing the reasons I feel it is in violation of NPOV and attempted to add the POV-Check template to get some eyes on it. Unfortunately, a few editors are adamant that it is neutral and per the sources. There have been allegations of POV pushing.
There is one issue that I feel would fix a glaring concern. The lead states "The English Defence League (EDL) is an English far right single-issue organisation formed in 2009.". "Far right" have caused debate and both random IPs and editors to edit war and express POV concerns over some time now. My concern with it is that we are breaking the WP:AVOID style guideline and the group disputes the label (as covered in the press).
To fix this, I have proposed two options
This should be necessary and, fortunately, an easy fix. Use of the term "far right" is disputed even though I personally think it deserves some mention, even in the lead. To do this, we need to be cautious and word it as neutrally as possible regardless of how we feel about the group. this will provide needed information without conflicting with the lead's need to be concise and will actually improve the its ability to be a stand alone summary. Editors and IPs will more than likely continue to randomly express concerns causing a disruptive environment and this is more factual. Am I completely wrong here? Cptnono ( talk) 18:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
What Ctpnono is asking is whether the lead reflects the necessary balance or has the potential for a systemic bias in reporting been overlooked? Leaky Caldron 00:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Sources that say should also be considered. Yes, there are far right elements. The group denies it is fare right. Many sources actually provide quotes from the group saying they deny being far right, fascist, Nazis (they burned a Nazi flag at a "press conference", and/or political. I'm not saying they are not far right. I'm just saying that although it is a "minority view" we need to follow neutrality guidelines and make it clearer.:
Sources used in the source currently used to say they are far right. I feel these were cherry picked and for the most part are just a label thrown on by the writer without reasoning provided. There are a few more in the article that do this and were not used.
And no, the ANI was to get a a POV-check tag on the article which was removed. Editors want to argue about this one but it was just one of many which I listed. I believe the sources above speak for themselves. Some say link some say alleged and some just say it. If enough are qualifying it like that we should, too. Cptnono ( talk) 06:46, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
(out) When any dispute exists, use "alleged by." Opinions are dreadful things to vet in any article, to be sure, as they seldom represent absolute fact. Collect ( talk) 12:11, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
I would appreciate some of the editors here taking a look. I made a series of edits yesterday upon first encountering the article, removing what appeared to me to be someexamples of biased commentary. [67] [68] [69] [70] are the relevant diffs on my part. Two editors have been reverting, claiming that any changes to the article must meet with their prior approval before being executed. These reverts have been made without regard to the substance of my edits. I must say, I find their attitude a straightforward violation of WP:OWN, and the more distressing as it is in protection of what I consider to be rather clearly biased commentary unworthy of Wikipedia. In their defense, it appears they are interpreting a long-ago agreement that ended an edit war between certain concerned editors, as automatically binding upon all new editors, and giving them the right to revert any edits by new editors that have not gone through an extensive discussion process beforehand. Ray Talk 22:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
“ | enabled Mohammed Reza Pahlavi to become an all-powerful monarch, who went on to rule Iran with an iron fist for 26 years until he was overthrown in 1979 | ” |
. I believe No legitimate academic/ WP:RS would ever write such a stupid sounding thing. And one is not provided. If the "consensus" results in such bald face POV writing, then it shouldn't be respected. -- Firefly322 ( talk) 14:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I believe that Ambiogenesis and the Origin of Life are related, but they are not one in the same as topics. I think that there should be a seperate page for origin of life, because there are many theories to the origin of life besides ambiogenesis. Ambiogenesis has almost no evidence backing it up, and is merely a speculation by scientist of today. Intelligent Design is a topic that has just as much merit to it, and although many may say it is only a religion, it has just as much or more evidence for it as ambiogenesis does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hammertimegm ( talk • contribs) 01:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I very respectfully submit that the Saul Alinsky article is excessively biased in favor of the subject. To support that opinion, I offer the evidence of most of the articles about Mr. Alinsky that come up on Google after the Wikipedia one. I do not feel it would be appropriate for me to make any substantive editorial additions to increase what I perceive as the lack of neutrality without concurrence of other editors and would appreciate their opinions and direction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clay2 ( talk • contribs) 15:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Seems to me that large part of this article is biased and written from a perspective supporting Hagin's ideas and beliefs. For instance, under the heading "Alleged Plagiarism without Legal Challenge" it is stated:
"Hagin chose not to litigate against these reckless and false claims, as would have been his right, as these claims were hearsay meant to damage him apart from a factual basis. Hagin's critics had not understood his exemplary life of avoiding needless harm to others as stated in Romans 12 and other references to bless them which persecute you, bless, and curse not."
Many other statements have a similar tone.
Jan Tik ( talk) 22:00, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Several users have been including into her article the fact that her son joined AmeriCorps into her section relating to the 111th congress. One example. I have asked numerous times on the talk page how this fact is relevant to her views on AmeriCorps, with the primary responses being that it is;
To which I have responded,
It would appear that the ONLY reason for inclusion is because Bachmann is against AmeriCorp and the fact that her son joined has been used as a political point to make Bachmann look stipid. There certainly appears to be no other reason for inclusion since it has nothing to do with her congressional record on AmeriCorps other than being used for political purposes. As such I believe it clearly violates NPOV and is borderline BLP since it is being used purely for political purposes to denegrate the subject (Bachmann). Arzel ( talk) 06:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
(od)Are you going to give a reason why the actions of her grown son (an adult over the age of 18) have anything to do with Bachmann's views on AmeriCorp? Just saying something is appropriate without giving any rational why it is appropriate does not make it so. Arzel ( talk) 14:57, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
I anticipate that everyone will hate my solution, but here it goes: let us attribute the publicity associated with this fact to Bachmann's political opponents. That's essentially why this received any notice at all. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that her political opponents attacked her. Maybe we can dig up a source that provides her response to their derision. Normally we want to go with WP:ASF, but in this case the facts in question are only relevant due to their political undertones. It is dishonest for Wikipedia to not discuss that this is the case due to the obscurity of this particular bit of information. From the sources cited it is apparent that the people who discovered her son had joined TfA had to do some serious sleuthing to figure it out. ScienceApologist ( talk) 14:31, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
There is an RfC at Talk:Northern Ireland#RFC: calling Northern Ireland a "country" concerning an NPOV matter. Perhaps I am just being dumb, but it appears to me that an overwhelming majority in that RfC refuses to acknowledge an obvious POV problem. I think the RfC deserves wider attention.
Northern Ireland has close political and cultural ties to both the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom. Since Northern Ireland and the UK have a complicated history and no written constitution, it is not at all clear what Northern Ireland actually is. Obviously it is much more than a loosely defined region, and much less than a sovereign national state. But what exactly is it, expressed in words that fit into the first sentence of the article? Hans Adler 11:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
(out) Queen Elizabeth II at coronation was styled "Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland" etc. [71] notes usage of "Queen of Northern Ireland" , and there is still "Queen's Counsel" as a title in Northern Ireland. Thus suggesting that NI is, indeed, a kingdom. She is also "Duke of Normandy" and "Duke of Lancaster" by the way. Collect ( talk) 13:38, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
This article contains a clearly biased paragraph:
A criticism of the geolibertarian view of property is that scarcity determines the necessity of property rights. Thus, the fact that land is scarce is seen as all the more reason to make it private property. However, this is a non sequitur, as market allocation mechanisms can work just as well if an item in fixed supply such as land is public property. Geolibertarians consequently draw a distinction between land ownership and land tenure (see above). The notion that scarcity requires the scarce item to be appropriated as private property leads to absurd conclusions, such as that private owners should be privileged to charge other citizens for access to government services. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.187.86 ( talk) 19:01, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
There's a dispute currently going on at the aforementioned article, as to whether the environmental or the hereditarian hypothesis is overrepresented in the article in view of its real-world importance (or maybe the balance is right as it is). Editors are welcome to chime in on the talk page itself.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 22:24, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
(reset indent) So, after you votestacked the issue, you now want to steamroll it to ensure there isn't enough time for people to discuss the issue and chime in properly? Interesting way to try to get your way. Also, thoroughly objectionable. But there's no need to do this: a lot of editors have this article on their watchlist, and even though they may have been silent up to now, they will eventually make thir voices heard, one way or another. No need for canvassing.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 02:34, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
No issue with content, if its properly sourced, but title, tone and some of the word choices could possibly be more...neutral, especially when compared to similar articles on the West Bank like List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus... -- nsaum75 ¡שיחת! 16:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I have addedd a reference to an LA Times article [8]. under "Obama Administration critisizm of Fox News" twice only to have it removed twice by a person that doesn't like the source (feels it's biased). I maintain that the fact that it was reported is the issue here and the edit fairly represented those facts, along with a clear referance to the White House denial. My position is that these facts are not-debatable...they occured, are "notable" and should be referenced in that section or a section of their own. Looking for calm and reasoned opinions here. Rapier1 ( talk) 19:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The article has only a single interested editor, and seems POVish in my opinion... positive content is removed or deprecated, negative is highlighted, content is slanted. I have no interest in pursuing this barely-notable health spa article, and the POV tag I had attached has been removed twice by the only editor. I won't edit war it in, and I find communicating with the editor there unpleasant. Just a call to see if interested eyes might be drawn to the article. - Sinneed 04:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
The below has recently been brought to my attention. It appears the editor, Hiberniae has engaged in a prolonged and sustained campaign using wikipedia to forward his negative agenda against kedco Since being cited by Dekisugi for vandalism on December 11 2008 for a personalised attack using the Kedco Page his campaign has been intensified: The unhealthy personal obsession with this company drives the point of view and tone of all his edits, resulting in a negatively biased wikipedia page. References for the negative observations are unreliable and include his own personal blog wood-pellet-ireland.blogspot.com where he makes no secret of his 'agenda'.
Since he setup his wikipedia account almost a year ago, 98.8% of edits have been on Kedco and closely reflect the tone of the 11 separate blog posts that reference Kedco in a negative manner. Despite some editors' attempts to remove the bias (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kedco#Corrections ) Hiberniae has displayed a steely determination to keep his biased point of view on the page by repeatedly reverting edits. This resulted in what looks like a recent "edit war" resulting in the page being protected with his controversial content included. Surely it would be more 'neutral' to protect the page with the biased material excluded? RenewableK ( talk) 00:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I am wondering is it possible to talk with an administrator directly around such issues of abuse of wikipedia? RenewableK ( talk) 12:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
The Ameriprise Financial page has a POV tag on it. I am an Ameriprise advisor, and have been since April, so I really don't want to remove it. However, going through the article and the discussion page I see one person that seems to hate the company for some reason, and a lot of people trying to make good faith edits. I'm afraid I don't see the POV problems, but then again I am a suspect source. Please examine the site and if we could come to a consensus and either fix the problems or remove the tag. Thanks! Rapier1 ( talk) 04:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Yesterday I place a {{ disputed}} tag on a section at Mole (unit). It was removed claiming that no rationale was given so I re-added it referring explicitly to the previous talk page comments. It has since been removed again claiming my comments are not substantial enough. I'll accept that my comments do not represent a complete statement of case but they are enough to point out precisely where the problem area is, that the current section is unsourced and actually goes against sources it acknowledges in the text. The opponents of the template have also presented 'no case either subsequent to my comments or previous talk page comments along the same lines.
I do not propose to get involved in a protracted discussion of the substantive issue here - it is after all an inappropriate place for that debate. However it seems fundamentally wrong to remove such a tag without any prior discussion or addressing the concerns raised. I'm reluctant to re-add the template again since it would arguably be going into 3RR territory (although I am confident I could justify my actions under that policy) so does anyone have any useful views or input? CrispMuncher ( talk) 12:55, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Fight_Dragons
Original:
Tour
In September 2009, they began their US Tour with punk group Whole Wheat Bread and popular nerdcore-hiphop artist MC Chris. On this tour Brandon Majors, in a concert review, described the sound of I Fight Dragons as "a bit recycled."[8] In another concert review on the same tour, Noelle Lynn Blood wrote that "[t]he band's style was fairly original" but noted that they "failed to harmonize between the three singing members and this killed their overall impact."[9] In a short, positive review on his blog, Mankvill describes I Fight Dragons as "a fun band who plays pop punk/rock with chiptunes" with a sound that's "[i]nfectious as hell."[10][11]I Fight Dragons just raised a cool $10,000 for their band in under 48 hours. They offered fans a chance to buy a lifetime subscription to the band's music -- including anything and everything they ever release -- for $100, and limited the number of available subscriptions to 100... ...I Fight Dragons were already doing an exemplary job of offering fans and mailing list members a steady stream of free high-quality MP3s while leveraging social media to deepen their connections with their audience. We view this latest move as the payoff for all that community building and we hope that this provides an example for other groups to follow in the future.
Who is we? Why are our hopes being expressed on Wikipedia? Why is Wikipedia quoting opinions from reviews? The reason for these revisions: Much of the above content has nothing to do with touring, and is based in personal opinion. Revised:
Tour
I Fight Dragons appeared in concert at Dragoncon 09 in Atlanta, Georgia. In September 2009, they began their first US Tour with punk/rap group Whole Wheat Bread and nerdcore-hiphop artist MC Chris. A critical portion of their touring process is a social network they call the Advanced Guard, a group of fans that help promote the shows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.54.131.194 ( talk) 19:05, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
I removed a sentence from there which I considered not to be neutral, or someone's opinion; don't we need references for such things? It Is Me Here t / c 10:42, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
In the Fox News Channel article there are several areas where politial partisanship is causing edit wars. In this particular case, editors are sourcing Media Matters For America in a section that claims that FNC has misrepresented facts. I have no problem with the section being there, but I believe (and have created the edit) that if we are going to source a group that is self-identified as "Progressive", and specifically dedicated to being a "watchdog of conservative media", then it is completely appropriate, and in fact necessary, to state this up front in that section as stating "The self-described "progressive" group Media Matters For America has catalogued what it believes are the most...". This edit continues to be erased by partisan editors on the Left and I'd like a consensus on the issue. SIDENOTE: The word "Accusations" is continually removed as well. I maintain that this is a "controversies" section because these facts are not universally accepted, and the article should not try to present these accusations as anything other than that. Let the reader form their own opinion. Rapier1 ( talk) 05:51, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
News from Fox is RS. Opinions from people on Fox is opinion. Just like MSNBC, or any other source. Opinion providers are not the same as the network news, and there is a big difference between deliberate misrepresentation of facts and having differences of opinions. MMFA frequently blurs that line, and claims misrepresentation of fact where what really is occuring is a matter of opinion. I have not found any reliable source for the news reports being deliberaltely faulty, and the characterization of FNC as deliberately doing such must, perforce, be labeled as opinion of a specif group (which is self-characterized as a watchdog for anything it thinks is right wing). Collect ( talk) 18:47, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Hey Blaxthos, explain to me then why it is not posioning the well to add "conservative" to the Media Research Center on The Media Elite article? [73] John Asfukzenski ( talk) 18:52, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Can I request some input regarding a dispute at the above talk page. The dispute revolves around the history and founding of Sinn Féin. The differing viewpoints will be clear from reading the talk page, but it boils down to this. The current Sinn Féin party' led by Gerry Adams, sees itself as the rightful successor (or indeed one and the same party) as the original party founded in 1905 by Arthur Griffith. This is supported by three references.
Mooretwin has provided several sources to support 1970 as the date of formation:
So basically there are two schools of thought on this. At present, the claim that the current party were founded in 1905 is given preference above the view that they were founded in 1970 following the party's split. This is reflected in both the infobox and the lead. Valenciano quotes NPOV on the talk page, "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable" So both views should be represented, probably with preference given to the 1970 sources due to the weakness of the 1905 sources.
Adams' party have a legitimate right to claim direct lineage to the original 1905 parry, but so do the Workers' Party of Ireland, Republican Sinn Féin and others. Various compromise versions can be seen in the article's history including some worded by me. But the stable version of the page seems the best wording to me. This was changed without discussion on the talk page. This was a terrible idea, all editors involved are aware that controversial changes should be discussed beforehand.
Opinions greatly appreciated? Stu ’Bout ye! 14:13, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Was this discussion notified on the talk page of the article itself? If not then the above does not constitute a consensus for change. I note that participation above comprises only one side of the argument on the talk page itself. -- Snowded TALK 15:01, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be no neutral point of view.The writer(s)ought not take side.It is apparent that there are only favorable points of view about such a controversial figure,many cuban intellectual exiles consider that Boff and Frei Betto backed Castro's despotic regime,for example. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.145.128 ( talk) 09:39, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Regarding this: [74]. I think that it is important to qualify that one sources is a dedicated book chapter on the issue (article's subject) and the sources which disagree are ones which make cursory mentions of the subject in one sentence. I think that removal of those qualifications creates an undue numerical bias (several refs vs one), which is misleading (as the several refs are less on topic than the one that is). In other words, and invoking WP:UNDUE: I think that it is important to give extra weight to the point represented by a book chapter, as otherwise the reader is misled by the pure number of references (one to several) to believe that the POV represented by several sources is "better" (but in fact the sources are not equal - a book chapter dedicated to the subject in question vs several sentences mentioning the subject in passing). Am I correct? Which version is more neutral? Comments appreciated. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:43, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Diabetes_Association
"The American Diabetes Association (ADA) is the leading national association working to fight the deadly consequences of diabetes and to help those affected by diabetes. The Association funds research to prevent, cure and manage diabetes (including type 1 diabetes, type 2 diabetes, gestational diabetes, and pre-diabetes); delivers services to hundreds of communities; provides objective and credible information for both patients and health care professionals; and gives voice to those denied their rights because of diabetes[1]."
Every single reference in the wiki entry is to the ADA itself. The language is straight from their website. http://www.diabetes.org/about-us/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.185.4 ( talk) 03:53, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
This should be dealth through the discussion page and not here. Same IP seems to think Atkins diet cures diaebtes. Advise that this article needs citations. Dont think the IP understans purpose of this board. Cathar11 ( talk) 05:03, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Seeking some advice. There has been edit warring since yesterday [78] in regards to the charges of racism made against this film. The problem is due to the weight give to the "Philadelphia Weekly" reviewer in the article: [79]
The Philadelphia Weekly reviewer essentially makes the same criticism as the NY Times reviwer, but the NYTimes gets a sentence and the Philadelphia chap gets paragraphs. There are three editors who have performed multiple reverts, but so far only two of them have engaged in discussion on the talk page: Talk:Black_Hawk_Down_(film)#Philadelphia_Weekly. The third editor ( User:Crotchety Old Man) - who has been reverting this evening - won't participate in the discussion despite being asked to do so by me: [80]
Some impartial assistance would be much appreciated. Thankyou. Betty Logan ( talk) 00:11, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
New to posting, so be kind if I haven't found the right place to put this:
I have serious issues with the main header paragraph on the Jesus Christ Superstar article. It reads as follows:
Extended content
|
---|
Aside from the first sentence, virtually everything in here is either a misunderstanding or mischaracterization of the text. 1. Judas is referred to as a 'crooked' treasurer. While it's true that the text portrays Judas as being concerned with the group's money, and against its waste, nothing labels him a treasurer or even hints at his corruption (in that capacity). 2. "He suddenly becomes alarmed by the claims of Christ's divinity when the Lord reveals His purpose of dying for the lost." While it's true that the text depicts Judas as becoming alarmed by Christ's claim to divinity, [JUDAS: I remember when this whole thing began. No talk of God then, we called you a man.] there's nothing in the text about Jesus's revealing his purpose of dying for the lost. Indeed for about 60% of the play, Jesus's purpose appears to be to avoid dying at all. [JESUS: I only want to say, if there is a way, take this cup away from me. I don't want to taste its poison.] If for no other reason, this characterization is faulty for its timing alone, as Judas expresses his alarm at the beginning of the first Act and Jesus does not consent to be sacrificed until the beginning of the second Act. [JESUS: God, thy will is hard, but you hold every card. I will drink your cup of poison.] Additionally, portraying the Jesus depicted in the play as having a purpose of dying for the lost betrays a very Christianity-centered bias that is directly opposed to the theme and tone of the work. The central theme of the work is Jesus's human struggle with his perceived divine obligations, as well as Judas's struggle with the same issues. 3. "Judas is of the belief that the only pupose for the Messiah is to lead his people (the Jews) in political revolt against the Romans..." First: 'purpose' is misspelled. Second: this is entirely false. It is Simon of Zealotes who argues that Jesus should lead the people in political revolt, not Judas. [SIMON: "Keep them yelling their devotion, but add a touch of hate at Rome. You will rise to a greater power, and we will win ourselves a home."] Judas's main concern throughout the work (aside from his doubts about Jesus's divinity) stems from his belief that their primary goal should be raising money for, caring for and providing for the poor. [JUDAS: Woman, your fine ointments, brand new and expensive, should have been saved for the poor. Why has it been wasted? We could have raised maybe 300 silver pieces or more.] Further, according to the text, Judas doesn't think the purpose of the Messiah is different from what Jesus thinks it is, he believes Jesus is not the Messiah. [JUDAS: They think they've found the new Messiah, and they'll hurt you when they find they're wrong.] 4. "Judas fears that Jesus will doom the Jewish people to destruction at the hands of the Romans without ever understanding Christ's true purpose." I have no problem with this sentence, except for the word 'true.' It's true that Judas thinks Jesus's actions will have negative effects on the Jews as a people. It's true that he doesn't understand what Jesus is trying to do. But nowhere in the text is it conceded that Jesus's true purpose is to die for sinners and redeem them through his sacrifice. Indeed, the resurrection was left out of the play, presumably precisely because the play was never intended to take definitive side in this debate. Clearly there is tension between Judas's belief that Jesus was not divine and Jesus's (never stated) belief that he was. That conflict was not resolved in the play and I have to believe that lack of resolution was intentional. The truly ironic thing about this claim is that the closest the issue comes to being resolved is when Judas flirts with the idea of becoming a believer. [JUDAS: God, I'm sick. I've been used and you knew all the time. I will never understand why you chose me for your crime.] At his death, Judas laments his role in Jesus's capture and torture and admits, if only to God, that he understands that both Jesus and God intended for him to betray Jesus. He doesn't say it, but the logical conclusion of the admission is that God intended for Jesus to die and be martyred. The next logical step leads to the conclusion that Jesus actually was divine. However, Judas's near-conversion aside, throwing around terms like 'Christ's true purpose' in an article that is supposed to remain neutral shows a deep misunderstanding of Jesus Christ Superstar's true purpose. 5. "It's exactly this lack of understanding of Christ's purpose to die as a sacrafice for mankind that motivates Judas' drive toward the betrayal of God (in the person of the Christ, the Son of God). Judas betrays Christ because he cannot force Him to conform to the worldly view of humanism." I'm… just at a loss. First, 'sacrifice' is misspelled and the proper possessive form of 'Judas' is 'Judas's'. Second, there's no part of this that is about Jesus Christ Superstar. This is, start to finish, religious pontification that has nothing to do with the play, the characters it portrays, the doubts they express, the struggles they go through or the conclusions they reach. This belongs in an opinion piece in a Christian magazine, not in a neutral article about an artistic endeavor even though that artistic endeavor focuses on religious and Christian subject matter. I'd have had no problem with this paragraph if it had at least pretended to be discussing how the play deals with faith, spirituality and examination of the veracity of the claims made by Christians about Christ's divinity, but it doesn't. It has nothing to do with those things. It's merely a mini-sermon masquerading as a summary and it should be removed. Davidnowlin ( talk) 01:20, 24 November 2009 (UTC) While it's true that the text depicts Judas as becoming alarmed by Christ's claim to divinity, [JUDAS: I remember when this whole thing began. No talk of God then, we called you a man.] there's nothing in the text about Jesus's revealing his purpose of dying for the lost. Indeed for about 60% of the play, Jesus's purpose appears to be to avoid dying at all. [JESUS: I only want to say, if there is a way, take this cup away from me. I don't want to taste its poison.] If for no other reason, this characterization is faulty for its timing alone, as Judas expresses his alarm at the beginning of the first Act and Jesus does not consent to be sacrificed until the beginning of the second Act. [JESUS: God, thy will is hard, but you hold every card. I will drink your cup of poison.] Additionally, portraying the Jesus depicted in the play as having a purpose of dying for the lost betrays a very Christianity-centered bias that is directly opposed to the theme and tone of the work. The central theme of the work is Jesus's human struggle with his perceived divine obligations, as well as Judas's struggle with the same issues. 3. "Judas is of the belief that the only pupose for the Messiah is to lead his people (the Jews) in political revolt against the Romans..." First: 'purpose' is misspelled. Second: this is entirely false. It is Simon of Zealotes who argues that Jesus should lead the people in political revolt, not Judas. [SIMON: "Keep them yelling their devotion, but add a touch of hate at Rome. You will rise to a greater power, and we will win ourselves a home."] Judas's main concern throughout the work (aside from his doubts about Jesus's divinity) stems from his belief that their primary goal should be raising money for, caring for and providing for the poor. [JUDAS: Woman, your fine ointments, brand new and expensive, should have been saved for the poor. Why has it been wasted? We could have raised maybe 300 silver pieces or more.] Further, according to the text, Judas doesn't think the purpose of the Messiah is different from what Jesus thinks it is, he believes Jesus is not the Messiah. [JUDAS: They think they've found the new Messiah, and they'll hurt you when they find they're wrong.] 4. "Judas fears that Jesus will doom the Jewish people to destruction at the hands of the Romans without ever understanding Christ's true purpose." I have no problem with this sentence, except for the word 'true.' It's true that Judas thinks Jesus's actions will have negative effects on the Jews as a people. It's true that he doesn't understand what Jesus is trying to do. But nowhere in the text is it conceded that Jesus's true purpose is to die for sinners and redeem them through his sacrifice. Indeed, the resurrection was left out of the play, presumably precisely because the play was never intended to take definitive side in this debate. Clearly there is tension between Judas's belief that Jesus was not divine and Jesus's (never stated) belief that he was. That conflict was not resolved in the play and I have to believe that lack of resolution was intentional. The truly ironic thing about this claim is that the closest the issue comes to being resolved is when Judas flirts with the idea of becoming a believer. [JUDAS: God, I'm sick. I've been used and you knew all the time. I will never understand why you chose me for your crime.] At his death, Judas laments his role in Jesus's capture and torture and admits, if only to God, that he understands that both Jesus and God intended for him to betray Jesus. He doesn't say it, but the logical conclusion of the admission is that God intended for Jesus to die and be martyred. The next logical step leads to the conclusion that Jesus actually was divine. However, Judas's near-conversion aside, throwing around terms like 'Christ's true purpose' in an article that is supposed to remain neutral shows a deep misunderstanding of Jesus Christ Superstar's true purpose. 5. "It's exactly this lack of understanding of Christ's purpose to die as a sacrafice for mankind that motivates Judas' drive toward the betrayal of God (in the person of the Christ, the Son of God). Judas betrays Christ because he cannot force Him to conform to the worldly view of humanism." I'm… just at a loss. First, 'sacrifice' is misspelled and the proper possessive form of 'Judas' is 'Judas's'. Second, there's no part of this that is about Jesus Christ Superstar. This is, start to finish, religious pontification that has nothing to do with the play, the characters it portrays, the doubts they express, the struggles they go through or the conclusions they reach. This belongs in an opinion piece in a Christian magazine, not in a neutral article about an artistic endeavor even though that artistic endeavor focuses on religious and Christian subject matter. |
I'd have had no problem with this paragraph if it had at least pretended to be discussing how the play deals with faith, spirituality and examination of the veracity of the claims made by Christians about Christ's divinity, but it doesn't. It has nothing to do with those things. It's merely a mini-sermon masquerading as a summary and it should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidnowlin ( talk • contribs) 01:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
- ::::Lex, yes I agree that sources should be given, and I should have said that. However, it looks as if most of the suggestions are about typos (no source needed) and issues to do with the plot (which can be sourced from the libretto - David has already given them, they just need to be formatted properly). They don't look controversial and objections would seem unlikely, so I think this is about being WP:BOLD and not asking for permission to edit when the whole point of WP is that you don't need it. Apologies for getting all defensive, and I see that Moonridden girl has hit upon what may be a better way forward anyway. -- FormerIP ( talk) 01:52, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 15 |
This article is protected for the second time over the inclusion of the following sentence (and whether it should be handled in other ways):
Vladimir Putin wrote a letter to Tadić a week before the election, in which he wished Tadić a happy 50th birthday and all the very best in his activities for “the welfare of our friends, Serbia.” [1]
The core question is whether the placement of this sentence in a section on his re-election, here (and in context), is undue and synthesis, implying political endorsement.
Additional input would be most welcome in helping to establish consensus. The primary individuals involved seem to have strong feelings about the subject of the article and certainly about one another. Two others have offered opinions but seem to have left the building, and the primary individuals have moved on to arguing over whether or not that constitutes "consensus." I'm not in position to offer an opinion, having come in as an uninvolved admin via the ANI listing. A previous listing at the content noticeboard evidently attracted little notice, perhaps because the sole respondent thought the parties were amicable and might work something out. I'd really appreciate feedback on the content issue at that talk page. We can't direct people to dispute resolution if dispute resolution doesn't work. :) -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 16:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
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He doesn't dispute the translation, he just says that the word fag is too strong that he said homosexuals but he didn't use the word "homoseksualci", he used the strongest possible word for homosexuals - "pederri" and as for the rest of it like gay parades, insults to editors and slander on Tadic, it was written in English so there is no confusion there whatsoever. In any way it is all completely irrelevant to the issue and he should be warned. User No such user subsequently provide a handful of references proving that this is relevant and that it was covered by media so there is no original research and that it did cause a political stir by prompting reaction from all of the political leaders in Serbia so that it is definitely not an irrelevant event. It is also not part of the reelection campaign as Vladimir Putin didn't take part in the reelection campaign though it could be mentioned in indirect manner as it was discussed in that light by all of the political leaders in Serbia (as it can bee seen in links by No such user). Even though consensus is not a poll but arguments, you should mention PaxEquilibrium who wanted to include this in the article but was repeatedly attacked by LAz17, even a year after the event when PaxEquilibrium distanced himself from discussion. LAz17 has proven that he highly dislikes Tadic and that he sees that this piece of information is in the article to change election results, he talked about Tadic being corrupt and giving money to "fags" etc. etc. This is a politically painted dispute, LAz17 dislikes Boris Tadic and wants to remove information that he finds to be beneficial to Tadic.-- Avala ( talk) 18:10, 12 October 2009 (UTC) Anyway, this wont get us anywhere. We need some proposals to end the dispute, so here I go first. The disputed text reads:
I am now, in light of new refs provided by No such user, proposing the compromise solution:
Let's try to move from here, OK? Any input? If yes, then go here where you can respond, give your ideas and proposals, work on this so we can move on from the edit war. -- Avala ( talk) 18:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC) References
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Hello, just want to point your attention to the article WorkTime. I think LenaPro is working for this company in Canada and pushing it all the way on Wiki. 84.148.115.148 ( talk) 19:05, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
I have tried to post edits to tone down the rather dramatic language in these articles. They are written in a manner than advocates and promotes a particular college sports team rather than a neutral reporting of the facts. All of my edits are immediately reverted without comment. I then posted detailed concerns on the talk page and referenced them by posting the {{POV}} and {{cleanup}} templates at the top of the article, which ask that the templates not be deleted until the dispute is resolved. The comments have drawn a response from one editor, but have been generally ignored, and the template are quickly reverted without comments. The one conversation I did have on the talk page (after several deletions) was informative (my edit to change the sentence to #3 was changed back to #1):
The editors that the two articles attract are unaware of what constitutes a NPOV encyclopedic tone. Could some disinterested editors please take a look? Racepacket ( talk) 16:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
After the above comments, as well as after leaving my concerns on the article's talk page, all of the edits which I made today to the page were reverted without discussion:
Note that even minor edits, like changing [[Orange Bowl (game)]] to [[Orange Bowl (game)|Orange Bowl]] were reverted en mass. Even adding names to references so that they could be used at a second location on the article were reverted. Bottom line this diff which omit the 20 intermediate edits show a complete reverting of all changes. So, the question is does the article meet NPOV standards, and what can be done about a pair of editors who have massively and systematically reverted many editors who have tried to improve the article? [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]
Thanks Racepacket ( talk) 21:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
We need more eyes on these articles, because the involved editors do not acknowledge any distinction between fact and opinion. Thanks. Racepacket ( talk) 13:29, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Today, User:PassionoftheDamon added the unsourced sentence "Nevertheless, the rivalry remains incredibly intense, with many Hurricane fans still considering Florida a more 'hated' rival than Florida State." I believe that this is an opinion and very POV. It is very difficult to compare the "intensity" of rivalries, and rivalries must be reciprocal. It is very POV to discuss UM's "hatred" of U of F, rather than the feelings between the two schools. This is written from the point of view of the UM campus and not from Wikipedia's neutral vantage point. It is also unsourced and probably not productive to work to reshape into something encyclopedic. I also suspect that over 95% of the people at the two schools do not "hate" at all. Do other editors have some wisdom on this? Racepacket ( talk) 17:42, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
For many months editors I see as on opposite sides have battled over Sikh extremism. As I see it, pro-Sikhs have attempted to have the article killed as offensive, buried it in trivia, and generally obstructed. Anti-Sikhs have attempted to add every bit of violence, bad news, or extremism that presents Sikhism in a bad light, and generally obstructed. Both sides have used slanting, selective use of sources, citations of information to entire encyclopedia sets, or entire books, specious sources.
The edit warring, at least, has died down, but the insertion of what I see as off-topic content on both extremes has resulted in almost every section being flagged offtopic.
It is my hope that new eyes may see a way to move forward. I had proposed an idea for a multi-way merge, but it is very clear it won't be acceptable to either of the identifiable parties at opposite poles.- Sinneed 21:09, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Generally pro-tort-reform, fails to address 1) contentiousness of tort-reform, 2) represent both sides of tort-reform equally/even-handedly. I modified the opening of the article, and would be willing to work on tightening the rest of it, but want some feedback before investing too much time on it.
Currently the opening paragraph reads:
Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants,[1] also known as the "McDonald's coffee case," is a 1994 product liability lawsuit that became a flashpoint in the debate in the U.S. over tort reform after a jury awarded $2.86 million to the plaintiff. The trial judge reduced the total award to $640,000, and the parties settled for a confidential amount before an appeal was decided. The case is arguably noteworthy primarily because popular understanding of the facts strongly support one side of the politically contentious issue of tort reform in the United States.
I would probably delete references to "popular understanding" altogether in the opening summary. I would re-label "Similar Lawsuits" as "Criticism", with a pared down reference version of some of the text currently in "Similar Lawsuits" and a link to tort reform. I would also add a "Response to Criticsm", again with a tort reform, and with reference to disparities between popular understanding and actual facts of the case.
I suspect once I was satisfied with the neutrality of this particular article I would next look for concerns with the tort reform article itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Phaedral ( talk • contribs) 20:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks to both Itsmejudith and Ravensfire. I would actually be most comfortable omitting "popular understanding" and also the related cases and reference to tort reform. The facts of the case stand on their own.
It's news to me that wikipedia avoids "criticism" sections. Seems to me I rather expect to see them here on anything contentious. But that's as a casual user. I haven't done much editing. Phaedral ( talk) 20:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
There is no controversy section to this article. Voices who were opposed to the reforms of Bredesen seem to have been squashed. I request a team look at Tenncare to determine if a violiation of Neutrality has occured. Also the article to me anyway, reads like a campaign ad for Governor Bredesen.
Thank you
Magnum Serpentine ( talk) 12:38, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I'm here to seek some outside feedback on an alternative medicine article, colloidal silver. The input must be from someone not involved with fringe theories and someone without an opinion on alternative medicine therapies.
What I am calling into question is the following paragraph:
"Colloidal silver is currently marketed for internal and external use as an alternative medical remedy though there is no scientific evidence to support its effectiveness in vivo.[1] Some in vitro studies demonstrate an anti-bacterial effect of electrically generated silver ions,[2][3][4] although a study of a colloidal silver solution marketed on the Internet showed no such antimicrobial activity.[5]"
There are two things here that I feel are absolute POV pushing by the editors that frequent fringe medicine articles.
I'll start with the simple one:
"Some in vitro studies demonstrate an anti-bacterial effect of electrically generated silver ions,[2][3][4] although a study of a colloidal silver solution marketed on the Internet showed no such antimicrobial activity.[5]"
There are also about half a dozen more sources backing up the first claim. Ref [5] is the only reference that contradicts the rest. I'm trying to find the guideline/policy involving this, but it basically states that when the clear majority of studies side on one side, chances are that the single contradictory study was a one off, and should not be included. I have no objection to the study being included. What I have an objection to is "some", which gives the impression of "Some do, but most do not", when the opposite is true (Most do, but here is one that does not).
Is the word Some' appropriate in this case?
The second is more complicated.
"Colloidal silver is currently marketed for internal and external use as an alternative medical remedy though there is no scientific evidence to support its effectiveness in vivo.[1]"
The wording for this is taken directly, word-for-word, from reference [1]. What I dispute is the neutrality of source 1, and therefore the neutrality of the sentence that is on wikipedia. It is undisputed that the reality is that no studies have been performed at all, as opposed to studies that have negative conclusion (which do not exist). However, editors dispute that is A) That is not the scientific method, and B) It must follow the source EXACTLY!!!!!!>!>!!, to which I disagree as A) the scientific method is for scientists, not the general public who will be reading the article, and B) the source clearly weaselly words the sentence to give the impression that many studies have come out that concluded it was ineffective. I believe the sentence should read:
"Colloidal silver is currently marketed for internal and external use as an alternative medical remedy, though there has been no scientific research to conclude its effectiveness in vivo.[1]"
Thoughts? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 21:01, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
False dichotomy being cited here. The studies which purport to show anti-bacterial effect do not conclude that the use of colloidal silver as marketed by alt med outlets is justified. The only study which actually looks at the colloidal silver as an alternative medicine per se is the one referenced. Following WP:MEDRS and WP:ASTONISH, I think it may even be justified to remove the first clause entirely since its connection to the product is not established by reliable sources. ScienceApologist ( talk) 14:13, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
(OD) The cabal accusations and misrepresentations of Stephan's alcohol argument are not at all helpful. And careful what is called vandalism: there is reasonable debate as to whether those sources are pertinent to the article taken as a whole, so either adding or reverting them should be deemed above intentionally damaging the article.
As I see it, using these sources is arguably beyond the scope of the intent of the article, and including them is poor writing due to undue emphasis on a chemical property quite out of the article's context (at best) and weaselly and tendentious NPOV circumvention at worst. The sources might be useful for demonstrating that there is (or was) a plausible mechanism for efficacy, but to suggest they support that the product is effacacious is to misunderstand (at best) both the science and the scope of this project. Baccyak4H ( Yak!) 19:01, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
A compromise that would be acceptable to me would be to separate the two sentences as below. In this way the studies are not used to support the use of colloidal silver medically.
''Most in vitro studies demonstrate an anti-bacterial effect of electrically generated silver ions,[2][3][4] although a study of a colloidal silver solution marketed on the Internet showed no such antimicrobial activity.[5]"
Colloidal silver is currently marketed for internal and external use as an alternative medical remedy though there is no scientific evidence to support its effectiveness in vivo.[1]''
Stephan Shulz has mentioned above 'the well-known antibacterial effect of silver ions in vitro'. It won't be 'well known' anymore if its excised from Wikipedia, as is being attempted here. DHawker ( talk) 22:00, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
I have for several years had a great deal of concern about the neutrality of the articles on climate and particularly the global warming article. Realistically I'm not sure that much can be done, because by its very nature, the kind of people who are interested enough in the environment to read up on global warming and altustic enough to want to edit wikipedia, are not going to be the kind of petrol heads who are disinclined to believe the flaky evidence about manmade warming. Furthermore, the "climate science" arena seems to be populated by a pretty close knit group of people and even with the best of intentions, such a group is liable to gang up (even without intending it) on outsiders who don't share their views. And, finally, whilst I've done enough research of the subject myself to know that the article is highly biased, to be honest it really isn't worth my time engaging in a fight which I've no chance of winning, so like a lot of editors before me, I have found more interesting things to do with my life.
So, what can be done? Once you have a group that set rules such as "if it isn't peer reviewed by our 'friends'(my belief!)" then it can't go in the article, then it becomes impossible to add any content even if it comes from reputable organisations like the BBC. And, when a group of editors become so powerful in a subject that they can literally dictate what gets in and what does not, then anyone with a contrary view becomes frustrated and finds other things to do, leaving the article with a dedicated but one sided group of editors, dictating the rules, supporting each other's views and generally excluding anyone who would help balance the neutrality of the article.
Personally, I think "something ought to be done", but as I'm not really willing to waste the days and days of effort ... no what would be the point it's impossible even to get simple factually well sourced statements like "it is currently cooling" in any form into the article so there's not a hope of being able to seriously rebalance the article. What can be done? 88.110.76.120 ( talk) 12:57, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
{undent} I'm pretty up to date on the issues surrounding the science behind the confirmation of human-caused climate change. I'll put it on watch to make sure that WP:DUE is being adhered to. Simonm223 ( talk) 15:11, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
'Arrrrggggghhhhhhh' ... what do I find when I turn to read the news? Something called the "Christian Science Monitor" [8] published a few hours ago quoting the BBC as saying the world is cooling. To be honest, scientifically its pretty insignificant that we've had cooling this century, it's not a big deal, if manmade warming were true there would be such periods, but as a bench mark for whether Wikipedia is honestly reporting the subject it shows only one thing WIKIPEDIA IS NOT BEING NEUTRAL ON THE SUBJECT and I could never support an organisation that knowingly misleads the public. 88.110.76.120 ( talk) 17:12, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Editors William M. Connolley, Kim D. Petersen and Ratel are trying to include a section in the biography of Australian Professor of Atmospheric Sciences, Garth Paltridge, that appears to have WP:OR and WP:SYN problems and more seriously seems to violate WP:NPOV via WP:WEIGHT to make a guilt by assocation connection with the Lavoisier Group.
I am unable to summarise their side of the story since I am just being reverted without discussion.
Reference Talk:Garth_Paltridge#Lavoisier_and_WP:OR.2C_WP:SYN.2C_and_WP:WEIGHT_problems. Alex Harvey ( talk) 10:32, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
From the summary, I don't see any side. You've said it breaks lots of policies, but not how or why. Please justify your opinion. Also, please don't tell other people they aren't fit to be on wikipedia. That is grossly uncivil, which is a policy too. Verbal chat 16:12, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
On the topic of solid oxide fuel cell
SOFC, a users Jarmil and 130.192.50.18 from the Politecnico di Torino (potentially the user's current workplace) repeatedly quote their own research. While that is ok to a degree, the topic is too broad, and research performed by many scientists, not just one, to be singularly represented by references from one single person. Previous attempts at making the range of research presented more unbiased have been reverted by user Jarmil. Future changes to the text cannot be made if the text is too biased. Not sure if anything can be done about it except wait until the broader research community changes the text over the next years. However, since Wikipedia is not a self-advertising center for individuals, it might be humbly suggested that this user account is looked at.
In fact, the edits are persistent throughout most wikipedia sites containing the word "fuel cell", e.g.
Fuel_cell, where user Jarmil entered dozens of research papers by Milewk. J and Mill. A, making this page also biased. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
S.Nimanan (
talk •
contribs) 19:10, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
A number of sources with various Hamas officials and Arab news agencies have been presented that show "Gaza M/massacre" being used as to refer to the Gaza War in both Arabic and English sources. Many Arab news agencies used different names such as "War on Gaza" or "Assault on Gaza". Another source, which the RS/N shows consensus for being a reliable source, explicitly says that the conflict is "Known in the Arab world as the Gaza Massacre" [9] and another says "what the Arab world has called 'the Gaza massacre'." [10]. Is it a violation of NPOV to say that the conflict is "known in the Arab world as the Gaza Massacre" and is it undue weight to include it in the lead in bold as an alternative Arabic name? nableezy - 15:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
The list of living supercentenarians (people aged over 110) is split into verified people (almost always by the GRG [11]), and unverified people (all of whom have a link to a reliable source about their claim). The GRG lists around 70-80 living supercentenarians, but also recognises that there are likely to be 300-400 supercentenarians in the world (scroll to the bottom of the last link). The dispute surrounds the claims section. Currently claims are rejected unless they are from one of the 67 countries listed as a high income economy by the World Bank. However, many claims have been validated by the GRG and Guinness World Records even though they were not from one of these 67 countries. In fact the World's oldest person a few years ago, Maria Capovilla, aged 116, herself was not from a high income economy. I believe removing these based on their country goes against NPOV and damages the global scope and neutrality of the article. Another suggestion put forward was to only list claims from countries that have had validated supercentenarians in the past. This however is biased against smaller countries and also contradicts NPOV. For example, a country such as Iceland is unlikely to have many supercentenarians because of its low population. The oldest Icelandic person ever was 109, though that of course does not mean that no-one will be 110 in the future. The bottom line is that there are two sections to the article: a verified section, and an unverified section. However claims from certain countries are not considered either because they are deemed by some users to be either highly likely to be false, or highly likely to never be validated (both of which strike me as a violation of WP:BALL, and the first one also of NPOV). SiameseTurtle ( talk) 21:01, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
To address that, I've proposed we list unverified claims from countries with previous verified claims. Canada Jack ( talk) 20:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
There is an ongoing content dispute at StandWithUs concerning this edit
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=StandWithUs&diff=322009752&oldid=322004043
in short, editor ShamWow is of the opinion that mentioning the result of the investigation of this NGOs funding as published by Inter Press Service would be POV, whereas I am of the opinion that results of an investigation by a WP:RS such as IPS, worded after the article publishing the same, are inherently according to Wikipedia policies. Please comment both on the basic question, and also possible suggestions on improving the wording of the text to better comply with Wiki policies are welcome. The IPS story is run on at least five other blogs/outlets to which I have links. -- Dailycare ( talk) 20:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Once again, article is WP:Red flag - surprising claim that is made nowhere else - WP:Undue - no other source has seen fit to print these accusations - and WP:NPOV - Wikipedia does not assert IPS claims. IPS didn't "reveal" anything, it was alleged. Based on these arguments, this article is not appropriate to be sourced and should be removed. Criticism of SWU should be included, but this article is not adequate per Wikipedia policies. ShamWow ( talk) 21:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The part about History in article Brazil was recently completly erased and replaced with new texts by user Lecen. Besides the fact that all the History part was erased (which is not allowed, since it was sourced), the new texts look really biased to me. The new texts clearly show a positive view of the user about Monarchy and a negative view about Republic. The Emperor Pedro II reign part only talks about good points and ommits the negative points of that government, and the user clearly attacks the Republic there. A discussion about this is going on at the talk page of Brazil article. [13] I hope more people may give their opinion about these recent changes, which seem obviously pro-monarchist to me. Opinoso ( talk) 00:46, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
In fact, there was already a part about History in that article, which was small, sourced and neutral. The user lecen erased the entire History and replaced it with these news Monarchists changes, which are too big for an article which is about Brazil, and not its history, and it's non-neutral as well. May I reverse the article to its original History part? Opinoso ( talk) 13:23, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The Wikipedia entry about me ("Henry Gould") included very minor errors about my activities & publications in the 1990s. I corrected these errors. I also added a few external links to relevant information about me (an online interview, an essay on my work). I do not plan to make further corrections to my entry unless absolutely necessary. I hope the warning notice about "conflict of interest" will be removed. Thank you. Hhgould ( talk) 18:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The article Leopoldo Galtieri says in the lead that he was president of Argentina "during the last military dictatorship" and refers to the Intelligence Battalion 601 as a "death squad". I changed that to "during the National Reorganization Process" (name given to that government) and "The special military intelligence service Intelligence Battalion 601". However, a user reverted the editions and says at the talk page that such words would be euphemisms and that Words that label wouldn't apply in this case. MBelgrano ( talk) 18:17, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
A number of editors are trying to make a statement of fact regarding the political leanings of this news aggregator. This is in spite of the fact that the majority of reliable sources delcare Real Clear Politics to be a non-partisan or Nuetral source of information. I introduced a compromise to best state their viewpoint, but this too has been reverted to a highly biased point of view.
I have tried to discuss this at length on the talk page and have included a list of all the sources I could find to point out thier the political leanings. Please tell me how this does not violate NPOV. Arzel ( talk) 18:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Basically it comes down to this. One person has a source that calls them conservative. I have many sources that call them "Non-Partisan" or "Neutral" yet the only source which can be included in the lead is the one that calls them conservative? How in the HELL is that not a biased point of view?
Arzel (
talk) 18:18, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
(out) Do you have any evidence that when RCN is called independent it means independent of American conservative ideology and not independent of the Republican Party? No one is trying to discredit the information they provide. Their stories are after all reprints. Publications may be partisan or have a point of view yet still have a reputation for accuracy, like British broadsheets. The Four Deuces ( talk) 00:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Furthermore, since when is WP in the business of using opinion as a method of definition? Media Matters for America, which is a liberal/progressive group is not defined as such. They are allowed to use their own definition of themselves, and editors have attempted to make that definition on that article lede. The liberal bias is quite apparent when supposedly conservative organization labeled almost universally yet liberal organization are not. Arzel ( talk) 14:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Additional Info on Cult of Personality (this is missing in the article) [16] [17] [18] & BBC 4 [19]
Communist propaganda within the Former Yugoslavia:
The Yugoslav Communist state propaganda machine shared much with the Soviet Union. The Soviet format was imposed and then slightly modified. The Yugoslav Communist state used youth indoctrination [20], which were all too similar to the Soviet Union [21] and the People's Republic of China. Communist political, historical and philosophical courses were all part of general education. They can be found in any Yugoslav primary school textbook from the 1970s. Media and arts were used as a powerful means of propaganda and were all placed under heavy censorship. Josip Broz Tito was the main subject. Images, monuments, towns, street names, endless awards were given and a never ending production of books, films and poetry were created. Financially a huge amount of resources were used to keep the Communist propaganda and political activities running on a daily basis. Glorification and hero worship of the leader Josip Broz were a constant diet for the former peoples of Yugoslavia.
Most of Josip Broz’s images, monuments, town names and street names are now being removed. This started after the fall of the Berlin Wall and after the break up of Yugoslavia.
Summary: The Josip Broz Tito article represents old views from the cold war era and by default wikipedia is pushing a political agenda. This information is now part of the Josip Broz Tito article, thus making the article biased and lacking a NPOV. Also there are parts of history from that era and region that are missing.
Administrators should give attention to these issues? Qualified references such as Encyclopaedia Britannica and BBC history [22]are being presented here and are met with silence. Summary of the other qualified professional authors, who have expressed a more current scholarly view:
I have come up with a legacy''' chapter. This might give the article more of a modern scholarly feel. "One of Josip Broz Tito’s legacies was to bring peace and stability to the region, be it in Soviet style governance (following years after World War Two). In subsequent years he and his government started political reform and came up with their own brand of socialism. This was created hand in hand with his cult of personality. At first, it seemed that things were working out but in the end the economic political decisions that were made were flawed. Josip Broz’s style of economic socialism just could not compete in the world economic climate. Yugoslavia’s economic situation from the late 1970s onwards worsened with every year passing. With ethnic tension not resolved these were some of the factors that contributed to Tito’s Yugoslavia breaking up. Since then events such as Bleiburg [25] [26] and Foibe massacres [27] [28] that happened during the last days of WW2 have come to re-surface, which have now cast a dark shadow [29] [30]over his military leadership. Nevertheless at the time of his death he was much loved by the majority of the citizens of Yugoslavia"
Thank you. Sir Floyd ( talk) 11:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
That is funny, because those are my exact thoughts about Direktor. Defaming an historical figure, please, he is a politician. Where I come from politicians are constantly scrutinised. Tito was a leader & leaders have to be accountable. Sorry, but to me it's just old Communist rhetoric. Maybe coming from a different cultural background is causing the friction. You see from were I'm standing, Director is POV-pushing on a far great scale and sources for the Tito article are very questionable. Comments like " your not a native English speaker" doesn't help either. Maybe Wikipedia is just not set up for these type of intercultural interactions. Silly POV, cluttering the page with piles of useless text, more insults from Mr Director? His point of view is less clutter. Sure that's fine with me. Sir Floyd ( talk) 14:32, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
Here is more information that mass murder was carried out by Tito and the Partisans [35]. (I’m hoping that the Google Translate is working here) [36] [37] [38]. These events are inhuman to the extreme. It should have been mentioned in Josip Broz Tito article. It would make it less bias. They are factual events. Please :) look into them, as I said before, I'm not making this stuff up (have a heart). Regards Sir Floyd ( talk) 03:26, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Addtional References:
Sir Floyd ( talk) 09:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Communist crimes: 100,000 Victims in 581 Mass Graves
In Slovenia, three basic books came out needed for the study of communist crimes in the immediate post-war period. It specifies graves where liquidation and execution of prisoners of war were carried out in its territory.
This is a report by the Commission of the Government of the Republic of Slovenia for testing grave sites under the leadership of Jože Dežman and the historian Mitja Ferenc's works of the"Hidden in his Father Zakrito" and "“Prikrita Grobišča 60 let po Koncu Druge Svetovne Vojne”. 'The report of the Commission of the Government specifies the number of mass graves and victims and their nationality.
In this collection, in Slovenia, there was discovered and detected 581 mass graves in which, the author estimates about 100 000 victims in total. According to the research of Slovenian and Croatian historians, Partisans in Slovenia liquidated most of the Ustasa and home guard units. The Croats accounted for between 50 to 80 thousands casualties.
Note: Jože Dežman is a Slovenian historian. He is currently the director of the National Museum of Contemporary History in Ljubljana. [51]
Factual evidence (above) has emerged that the Dictator Josip Broz Tito (the Commander of all Yugoslav Partisans/Communists during WW2) and his comrads were responsible for these Communist War Crimes.
Wikipedia has an article about this individual which just seems to gloss over the all above mentioned events. There can be no buck passing here or omission of the whole truth. We have 100 000 victims for heaven sakes! Wikipedia is just pushing the point of view of a group of editors (political, in this case). This is not encyclopedic work, pure and simple.
Is Wikipedia providing a perfect vehicle for propaganda of this type.? Is Wikipedia taking on a darker tone? Where are the ethical & moral issues involved in creating a feel good story about Josip Broz a Croatian born in Austro-Hungarian Empire, now Croatia? What can one conclude from the wall of silence that is present here? As they say "silence can speak louder than words" These issues deserve some feedback if Wikipedia has a humanitarian side to it, preferably from someone who is impartial and educated in these matters.
The article should have a NPOV tag on it.The editors who wrote this article simply won't allow additional edits that reflect the whole story. Sir Floyd ( talk) 02:05, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Hi. I'm a new participant trying to learn the way of Wiki. My entry on Lynn Vincent got tagged as not neutral, and I changed all the language noted. But the notice remains on the entry. I've asked the editor twice to explain why, and have waited three days. Is this delay customary? Is there an assumption still that the entry is biased? If the notice remains because of the discussion about "ghostwriter" versus "collaborator" or "collaborative writer," that to me indicates an unwillingness to accept the publishing industry's use of terms. It's not a choice based on pro- or con-Vincent (or pro- or con-Palin). I'm using the term "collaborator" because Vincent has her name on her books, or in the case of the soon-to-be-launched Sarah Palin memoir, Vincent was announced as her co-writer from the start. A ghostwriter by definition -- regardless of how the term is misused in various media outlets -- is not named. Help? Akp623 ( talk) 20:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Their is an article concerning the above; recently it has been updated to include information regarding 'pedges of allegiance' towards its self proclaimed leader Brian Tamaki. I suspect these updates have, in the main, been by supporters of this dangerous individual (I know that isn't quite an NPOV!!)
Tamaki and his organisation have been widely criticised within the media as a church with a cult like status. I note that there is little (if any) reference to this within the article; this article reads like an advertisement for their work and does not have any information on the many controversies surrounding this organisation.
I believe the article requires placing in a section of Wikipedia where editing is limited or moderated (similar to other areas that will be subject to vandalism)
Username Ianguy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.97.23.22 ( talk) 02:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
The following article may have been created for purposes of self-promotion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_Van_Brummelen
The subject of the article may lack sufficient notability to warrant inclusion in the Wikipedia.
Furthermore, it appears that this article was created by an editor who has created other pages at "Quest University" - a small, newly established, private university where the subject of the article is employed.
Hence, there is evidence that suggests that this article, and possibly others, represent abuse of of the Wikipedia for purposes of advertising the newly established private university and/or it's employees. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.11.253.66 ( talk) 03:50, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
LTSally postings on the Jehovah's Witness pages, discussions, and on his personal webpage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:LTSally on the Jehovah's Witness pages violates the Neutral point of view policy. He is openly involved in opposing the work of Jehovah's Witnesses. He also monopolizes the editing process and will not allow any changes other than his own. The page has basically become his page, along with some supporters. He makes comments in his web page which are slanderous against Jehovah's Witnesses, in the legal term of the word referring to Jehovah's Witnesses as,
"a claustrophobic, sycophantic, incestuous community," "an intrusive, insidious, malevolent power — of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society." arrant nonsense." "the Watch Tower organization is the manipulative, controlling, tyrannical and unforgiving beast it is today. Through those books — and only those books — emerge the strange, breathtaking and sometimes shameful history the organization has whitewashed and distorted in its own publications"
I'm no expert on mind control techniques, but it sounds like the Witnesses employ a whole system of them. Close off access to outside criticism. Quash curiosity. Punish internal criticism. Establish an emotional dependence. Expel, isolate and silence malcontents and dissidents. And badger members to relentlessly preach, preach, preach the message
"Quote them back to those who place pressure on you to remain in the grip of the Watch Tower Society."
"the senseless parroting of stock phrases and ideas and the smugness of Witnesses about their own religion and their arrogant, derisive dismissal of the lifestyles and life choices of non-Witnesses"
All of these accustations are false, and also are slanderous. I feel that LTSally should not be allowed to contribute any work to the Jehovah's Witnesses pages or participate in its discussions under that or any other name. There are one or two others on the Jehovah's Witness page who also violate the neutral point of view. There is nothing wrong with posting shortcomings of Jehovah's Witnesses, if these are taken in a balanced way and in overall context, but the work of RTSally on the Jehovah's Witness pages is both not neutral and slanderous. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naturalpsychology ( talk • contribs) 09:21, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
I don't even know where to start because I don't know why I'm not neutral... Please some body help me—Preceding unsigned comment added by Shchoe ( talk • contribs)
The subsection on the EU ban now includes a statement saying: Critics of the EU's actions say that the bill did not mention or refer to any metrics that quantify the Canadian seal hunt as being any more inhumane than the accepted, legal slaughter of animals in the EU, [1] [2] [3] as millions of animals are slaughtered annually in the EU for food, fur [4], and entertainment. [5]
I think that it sould say: The Canadian prime minister, Stephen Harper has argued that there was no reason for the seal industry to be singled out for discriminatory treatment by the EU or anyone else. [6] [7]
The statement at the bottom is a rewording of the link in the reference whereas I can't seem to find a source for the above text.-- U5K0 ( talk) 16:05, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
Problem already solved. thanks anyway--
U5K0 (
talk) 15:25, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Under "Deployments, the entry for Novell eDirectory states that "According to IDC, eDirectory is used in over 80% of Fortune 1000 companies."
The citation for this is on the Novell site in their marketing material ("Why Choose Novell eDirectory?"), which seems to cross the line on neutrality. Also, I was unable to confirm this number with a quick google search... the only references I was able to find were circa 2000.
I suggest that this may need removal or revision with current data. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sage sam ( talk • contribs) 16:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Hello, I am mediating a dispute on the article Gibraltar. I have a NPOV question. In the opinion of this noticeboard, which statement is more NPOV?
For the purposes of this question, please assume that the only question is NPOV. RS and such will be addressed elsewhere. --- Irbisgreif-( talk | e-mail)-( contribs) 19:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
There have been multiple issues at English Defence League. Most of these are minor being based on a word here, there general tone, etc. I have tried listing the reasons I feel it is in violation of NPOV and attempted to add the POV-Check template to get some eyes on it. Unfortunately, a few editors are adamant that it is neutral and per the sources. There have been allegations of POV pushing.
There is one issue that I feel would fix a glaring concern. The lead states "The English Defence League (EDL) is an English far right single-issue organisation formed in 2009.". "Far right" have caused debate and both random IPs and editors to edit war and express POV concerns over some time now. My concern with it is that we are breaking the WP:AVOID style guideline and the group disputes the label (as covered in the press).
To fix this, I have proposed two options
This should be necessary and, fortunately, an easy fix. Use of the term "far right" is disputed even though I personally think it deserves some mention, even in the lead. To do this, we need to be cautious and word it as neutrally as possible regardless of how we feel about the group. this will provide needed information without conflicting with the lead's need to be concise and will actually improve the its ability to be a stand alone summary. Editors and IPs will more than likely continue to randomly express concerns causing a disruptive environment and this is more factual. Am I completely wrong here? Cptnono ( talk) 18:53, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
What Ctpnono is asking is whether the lead reflects the necessary balance or has the potential for a systemic bias in reporting been overlooked? Leaky Caldron 00:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Sources that say should also be considered. Yes, there are far right elements. The group denies it is fare right. Many sources actually provide quotes from the group saying they deny being far right, fascist, Nazis (they burned a Nazi flag at a "press conference", and/or political. I'm not saying they are not far right. I'm just saying that although it is a "minority view" we need to follow neutrality guidelines and make it clearer.:
Sources used in the source currently used to say they are far right. I feel these were cherry picked and for the most part are just a label thrown on by the writer without reasoning provided. There are a few more in the article that do this and were not used.
And no, the ANI was to get a a POV-check tag on the article which was removed. Editors want to argue about this one but it was just one of many which I listed. I believe the sources above speak for themselves. Some say link some say alleged and some just say it. If enough are qualifying it like that we should, too. Cptnono ( talk) 06:46, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
(out) When any dispute exists, use "alleged by." Opinions are dreadful things to vet in any article, to be sure, as they seldom represent absolute fact. Collect ( talk) 12:11, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
I would appreciate some of the editors here taking a look. I made a series of edits yesterday upon first encountering the article, removing what appeared to me to be someexamples of biased commentary. [67] [68] [69] [70] are the relevant diffs on my part. Two editors have been reverting, claiming that any changes to the article must meet with their prior approval before being executed. These reverts have been made without regard to the substance of my edits. I must say, I find their attitude a straightforward violation of WP:OWN, and the more distressing as it is in protection of what I consider to be rather clearly biased commentary unworthy of Wikipedia. In their defense, it appears they are interpreting a long-ago agreement that ended an edit war between certain concerned editors, as automatically binding upon all new editors, and giving them the right to revert any edits by new editors that have not gone through an extensive discussion process beforehand. Ray Talk 22:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
“ | enabled Mohammed Reza Pahlavi to become an all-powerful monarch, who went on to rule Iran with an iron fist for 26 years until he was overthrown in 1979 | ” |
. I believe No legitimate academic/ WP:RS would ever write such a stupid sounding thing. And one is not provided. If the "consensus" results in such bald face POV writing, then it shouldn't be respected. -- Firefly322 ( talk) 14:16, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I believe that Ambiogenesis and the Origin of Life are related, but they are not one in the same as topics. I think that there should be a seperate page for origin of life, because there are many theories to the origin of life besides ambiogenesis. Ambiogenesis has almost no evidence backing it up, and is merely a speculation by scientist of today. Intelligent Design is a topic that has just as much merit to it, and although many may say it is only a religion, it has just as much or more evidence for it as ambiogenesis does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hammertimegm ( talk • contribs) 01:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I very respectfully submit that the Saul Alinsky article is excessively biased in favor of the subject. To support that opinion, I offer the evidence of most of the articles about Mr. Alinsky that come up on Google after the Wikipedia one. I do not feel it would be appropriate for me to make any substantive editorial additions to increase what I perceive as the lack of neutrality without concurrence of other editors and would appreciate their opinions and direction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clay2 ( talk • contribs) 15:42, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Seems to me that large part of this article is biased and written from a perspective supporting Hagin's ideas and beliefs. For instance, under the heading "Alleged Plagiarism without Legal Challenge" it is stated:
"Hagin chose not to litigate against these reckless and false claims, as would have been his right, as these claims were hearsay meant to damage him apart from a factual basis. Hagin's critics had not understood his exemplary life of avoiding needless harm to others as stated in Romans 12 and other references to bless them which persecute you, bless, and curse not."
Many other statements have a similar tone.
Jan Tik ( talk) 22:00, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Several users have been including into her article the fact that her son joined AmeriCorps into her section relating to the 111th congress. One example. I have asked numerous times on the talk page how this fact is relevant to her views on AmeriCorps, with the primary responses being that it is;
To which I have responded,
It would appear that the ONLY reason for inclusion is because Bachmann is against AmeriCorp and the fact that her son joined has been used as a political point to make Bachmann look stipid. There certainly appears to be no other reason for inclusion since it has nothing to do with her congressional record on AmeriCorps other than being used for political purposes. As such I believe it clearly violates NPOV and is borderline BLP since it is being used purely for political purposes to denegrate the subject (Bachmann). Arzel ( talk) 06:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
(od)Are you going to give a reason why the actions of her grown son (an adult over the age of 18) have anything to do with Bachmann's views on AmeriCorp? Just saying something is appropriate without giving any rational why it is appropriate does not make it so. Arzel ( talk) 14:57, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
I anticipate that everyone will hate my solution, but here it goes: let us attribute the publicity associated with this fact to Bachmann's political opponents. That's essentially why this received any notice at all. There's nothing wrong with pointing out that her political opponents attacked her. Maybe we can dig up a source that provides her response to their derision. Normally we want to go with WP:ASF, but in this case the facts in question are only relevant due to their political undertones. It is dishonest for Wikipedia to not discuss that this is the case due to the obscurity of this particular bit of information. From the sources cited it is apparent that the people who discovered her son had joined TfA had to do some serious sleuthing to figure it out. ScienceApologist ( talk) 14:31, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
There is an RfC at Talk:Northern Ireland#RFC: calling Northern Ireland a "country" concerning an NPOV matter. Perhaps I am just being dumb, but it appears to me that an overwhelming majority in that RfC refuses to acknowledge an obvious POV problem. I think the RfC deserves wider attention.
Northern Ireland has close political and cultural ties to both the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom. Since Northern Ireland and the UK have a complicated history and no written constitution, it is not at all clear what Northern Ireland actually is. Obviously it is much more than a loosely defined region, and much less than a sovereign national state. But what exactly is it, expressed in words that fit into the first sentence of the article? Hans Adler 11:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
(out) Queen Elizabeth II at coronation was styled "Her Majesty Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of Great Britain, Ireland" etc. [71] notes usage of "Queen of Northern Ireland" , and there is still "Queen's Counsel" as a title in Northern Ireland. Thus suggesting that NI is, indeed, a kingdom. She is also "Duke of Normandy" and "Duke of Lancaster" by the way. Collect ( talk) 13:38, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
This article contains a clearly biased paragraph:
A criticism of the geolibertarian view of property is that scarcity determines the necessity of property rights. Thus, the fact that land is scarce is seen as all the more reason to make it private property. However, this is a non sequitur, as market allocation mechanisms can work just as well if an item in fixed supply such as land is public property. Geolibertarians consequently draw a distinction between land ownership and land tenure (see above). The notion that scarcity requires the scarce item to be appropriated as private property leads to absurd conclusions, such as that private owners should be privileged to charge other citizens for access to government services. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.86.187.86 ( talk) 19:01, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
There's a dispute currently going on at the aforementioned article, as to whether the environmental or the hereditarian hypothesis is overrepresented in the article in view of its real-world importance (or maybe the balance is right as it is). Editors are welcome to chime in on the talk page itself.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 22:24, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
(reset indent) So, after you votestacked the issue, you now want to steamroll it to ensure there isn't enough time for people to discuss the issue and chime in properly? Interesting way to try to get your way. Also, thoroughly objectionable. But there's no need to do this: a lot of editors have this article on their watchlist, and even though they may have been silent up to now, they will eventually make thir voices heard, one way or another. No need for canvassing.-- Ramdrake ( talk) 02:34, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
No issue with content, if its properly sourced, but title, tone and some of the word choices could possibly be more...neutral, especially when compared to similar articles on the West Bank like List of Arab towns and villages depopulated during the 1948 Palestinian exodus... -- nsaum75 ¡שיחת! 16:05, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I have addedd a reference to an LA Times article [8]. under "Obama Administration critisizm of Fox News" twice only to have it removed twice by a person that doesn't like the source (feels it's biased). I maintain that the fact that it was reported is the issue here and the edit fairly represented those facts, along with a clear referance to the White House denial. My position is that these facts are not-debatable...they occured, are "notable" and should be referenced in that section or a section of their own. Looking for calm and reasoned opinions here. Rapier1 ( talk) 19:58, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
The article has only a single interested editor, and seems POVish in my opinion... positive content is removed or deprecated, negative is highlighted, content is slanted. I have no interest in pursuing this barely-notable health spa article, and the POV tag I had attached has been removed twice by the only editor. I won't edit war it in, and I find communicating with the editor there unpleasant. Just a call to see if interested eyes might be drawn to the article. - Sinneed 04:34, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
The below has recently been brought to my attention. It appears the editor, Hiberniae has engaged in a prolonged and sustained campaign using wikipedia to forward his negative agenda against kedco Since being cited by Dekisugi for vandalism on December 11 2008 for a personalised attack using the Kedco Page his campaign has been intensified: The unhealthy personal obsession with this company drives the point of view and tone of all his edits, resulting in a negatively biased wikipedia page. References for the negative observations are unreliable and include his own personal blog wood-pellet-ireland.blogspot.com where he makes no secret of his 'agenda'.
Since he setup his wikipedia account almost a year ago, 98.8% of edits have been on Kedco and closely reflect the tone of the 11 separate blog posts that reference Kedco in a negative manner. Despite some editors' attempts to remove the bias (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kedco#Corrections ) Hiberniae has displayed a steely determination to keep his biased point of view on the page by repeatedly reverting edits. This resulted in what looks like a recent "edit war" resulting in the page being protected with his controversial content included. Surely it would be more 'neutral' to protect the page with the biased material excluded? RenewableK ( talk) 00:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
I am wondering is it possible to talk with an administrator directly around such issues of abuse of wikipedia? RenewableK ( talk) 12:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
The Ameriprise Financial page has a POV tag on it. I am an Ameriprise advisor, and have been since April, so I really don't want to remove it. However, going through the article and the discussion page I see one person that seems to hate the company for some reason, and a lot of people trying to make good faith edits. I'm afraid I don't see the POV problems, but then again I am a suspect source. Please examine the site and if we could come to a consensus and either fix the problems or remove the tag. Thanks! Rapier1 ( talk) 04:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Yesterday I place a {{ disputed}} tag on a section at Mole (unit). It was removed claiming that no rationale was given so I re-added it referring explicitly to the previous talk page comments. It has since been removed again claiming my comments are not substantial enough. I'll accept that my comments do not represent a complete statement of case but they are enough to point out precisely where the problem area is, that the current section is unsourced and actually goes against sources it acknowledges in the text. The opponents of the template have also presented 'no case either subsequent to my comments or previous talk page comments along the same lines.
I do not propose to get involved in a protracted discussion of the substantive issue here - it is after all an inappropriate place for that debate. However it seems fundamentally wrong to remove such a tag without any prior discussion or addressing the concerns raised. I'm reluctant to re-add the template again since it would arguably be going into 3RR territory (although I am confident I could justify my actions under that policy) so does anyone have any useful views or input? CrispMuncher ( talk) 12:55, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Fight_Dragons
Original:
Tour
In September 2009, they began their US Tour with punk group Whole Wheat Bread and popular nerdcore-hiphop artist MC Chris. On this tour Brandon Majors, in a concert review, described the sound of I Fight Dragons as "a bit recycled."[8] In another concert review on the same tour, Noelle Lynn Blood wrote that "[t]he band's style was fairly original" but noted that they "failed to harmonize between the three singing members and this killed their overall impact."[9] In a short, positive review on his blog, Mankvill describes I Fight Dragons as "a fun band who plays pop punk/rock with chiptunes" with a sound that's "[i]nfectious as hell."[10][11]I Fight Dragons just raised a cool $10,000 for their band in under 48 hours. They offered fans a chance to buy a lifetime subscription to the band's music -- including anything and everything they ever release -- for $100, and limited the number of available subscriptions to 100... ...I Fight Dragons were already doing an exemplary job of offering fans and mailing list members a steady stream of free high-quality MP3s while leveraging social media to deepen their connections with their audience. We view this latest move as the payoff for all that community building and we hope that this provides an example for other groups to follow in the future.
Who is we? Why are our hopes being expressed on Wikipedia? Why is Wikipedia quoting opinions from reviews? The reason for these revisions: Much of the above content has nothing to do with touring, and is based in personal opinion. Revised:
Tour
I Fight Dragons appeared in concert at Dragoncon 09 in Atlanta, Georgia. In September 2009, they began their first US Tour with punk/rap group Whole Wheat Bread and nerdcore-hiphop artist MC Chris. A critical portion of their touring process is a social network they call the Advanced Guard, a group of fans that help promote the shows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.54.131.194 ( talk) 19:05, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
I removed a sentence from there which I considered not to be neutral, or someone's opinion; don't we need references for such things? It Is Me Here t / c 10:42, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
In the Fox News Channel article there are several areas where politial partisanship is causing edit wars. In this particular case, editors are sourcing Media Matters For America in a section that claims that FNC has misrepresented facts. I have no problem with the section being there, but I believe (and have created the edit) that if we are going to source a group that is self-identified as "Progressive", and specifically dedicated to being a "watchdog of conservative media", then it is completely appropriate, and in fact necessary, to state this up front in that section as stating "The self-described "progressive" group Media Matters For America has catalogued what it believes are the most...". This edit continues to be erased by partisan editors on the Left and I'd like a consensus on the issue. SIDENOTE: The word "Accusations" is continually removed as well. I maintain that this is a "controversies" section because these facts are not universally accepted, and the article should not try to present these accusations as anything other than that. Let the reader form their own opinion. Rapier1 ( talk) 05:51, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
News from Fox is RS. Opinions from people on Fox is opinion. Just like MSNBC, or any other source. Opinion providers are not the same as the network news, and there is a big difference between deliberate misrepresentation of facts and having differences of opinions. MMFA frequently blurs that line, and claims misrepresentation of fact where what really is occuring is a matter of opinion. I have not found any reliable source for the news reports being deliberaltely faulty, and the characterization of FNC as deliberately doing such must, perforce, be labeled as opinion of a specif group (which is self-characterized as a watchdog for anything it thinks is right wing). Collect ( talk) 18:47, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Hey Blaxthos, explain to me then why it is not posioning the well to add "conservative" to the Media Research Center on The Media Elite article? [73] John Asfukzenski ( talk) 18:52, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Can I request some input regarding a dispute at the above talk page. The dispute revolves around the history and founding of Sinn Féin. The differing viewpoints will be clear from reading the talk page, but it boils down to this. The current Sinn Féin party' led by Gerry Adams, sees itself as the rightful successor (or indeed one and the same party) as the original party founded in 1905 by Arthur Griffith. This is supported by three references.
Mooretwin has provided several sources to support 1970 as the date of formation:
So basically there are two schools of thought on this. At present, the claim that the current party were founded in 1905 is given preference above the view that they were founded in 1970 following the party's split. This is reflected in both the infobox and the lead. Valenciano quotes NPOV on the talk page, "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable" So both views should be represented, probably with preference given to the 1970 sources due to the weakness of the 1905 sources.
Adams' party have a legitimate right to claim direct lineage to the original 1905 parry, but so do the Workers' Party of Ireland, Republican Sinn Féin and others. Various compromise versions can be seen in the article's history including some worded by me. But the stable version of the page seems the best wording to me. This was changed without discussion on the talk page. This was a terrible idea, all editors involved are aware that controversial changes should be discussed beforehand.
Opinions greatly appreciated? Stu ’Bout ye! 14:13, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Was this discussion notified on the talk page of the article itself? If not then the above does not constitute a consensus for change. I note that participation above comprises only one side of the argument on the talk page itself. -- Snowded TALK 15:01, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be no neutral point of view.The writer(s)ought not take side.It is apparent that there are only favorable points of view about such a controversial figure,many cuban intellectual exiles consider that Boff and Frei Betto backed Castro's despotic regime,for example. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.145.128 ( talk) 09:39, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Regarding this: [74]. I think that it is important to qualify that one sources is a dedicated book chapter on the issue (article's subject) and the sources which disagree are ones which make cursory mentions of the subject in one sentence. I think that removal of those qualifications creates an undue numerical bias (several refs vs one), which is misleading (as the several refs are less on topic than the one that is). In other words, and invoking WP:UNDUE: I think that it is important to give extra weight to the point represented by a book chapter, as otherwise the reader is misled by the pure number of references (one to several) to believe that the POV represented by several sources is "better" (but in fact the sources are not equal - a book chapter dedicated to the subject in question vs several sentences mentioning the subject in passing). Am I correct? Which version is more neutral? Comments appreciated. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 01:43, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Diabetes_Association
"The American Diabetes Association (ADA) is the leading national association working to fight the deadly consequences of diabetes and to help those affected by diabetes. The Association funds research to prevent, cure and manage diabetes (including type 1 diabetes, type 2 diabetes, gestational diabetes, and pre-diabetes); delivers services to hundreds of communities; provides objective and credible information for both patients and health care professionals; and gives voice to those denied their rights because of diabetes[1]."
Every single reference in the wiki entry is to the ADA itself. The language is straight from their website. http://www.diabetes.org/about-us/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.185.4 ( talk) 03:53, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
This should be dealth through the discussion page and not here. Same IP seems to think Atkins diet cures diaebtes. Advise that this article needs citations. Dont think the IP understans purpose of this board. Cathar11 ( talk) 05:03, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Seeking some advice. There has been edit warring since yesterday [78] in regards to the charges of racism made against this film. The problem is due to the weight give to the "Philadelphia Weekly" reviewer in the article: [79]
The Philadelphia Weekly reviewer essentially makes the same criticism as the NY Times reviwer, but the NYTimes gets a sentence and the Philadelphia chap gets paragraphs. There are three editors who have performed multiple reverts, but so far only two of them have engaged in discussion on the talk page: Talk:Black_Hawk_Down_(film)#Philadelphia_Weekly. The third editor ( User:Crotchety Old Man) - who has been reverting this evening - won't participate in the discussion despite being asked to do so by me: [80]
Some impartial assistance would be much appreciated. Thankyou. Betty Logan ( talk) 00:11, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
New to posting, so be kind if I haven't found the right place to put this:
I have serious issues with the main header paragraph on the Jesus Christ Superstar article. It reads as follows:
Extended content
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Aside from the first sentence, virtually everything in here is either a misunderstanding or mischaracterization of the text. 1. Judas is referred to as a 'crooked' treasurer. While it's true that the text portrays Judas as being concerned with the group's money, and against its waste, nothing labels him a treasurer or even hints at his corruption (in that capacity). 2. "He suddenly becomes alarmed by the claims of Christ's divinity when the Lord reveals His purpose of dying for the lost." While it's true that the text depicts Judas as becoming alarmed by Christ's claim to divinity, [JUDAS: I remember when this whole thing began. No talk of God then, we called you a man.] there's nothing in the text about Jesus's revealing his purpose of dying for the lost. Indeed for about 60% of the play, Jesus's purpose appears to be to avoid dying at all. [JESUS: I only want to say, if there is a way, take this cup away from me. I don't want to taste its poison.] If for no other reason, this characterization is faulty for its timing alone, as Judas expresses his alarm at the beginning of the first Act and Jesus does not consent to be sacrificed until the beginning of the second Act. [JESUS: God, thy will is hard, but you hold every card. I will drink your cup of poison.] Additionally, portraying the Jesus depicted in the play as having a purpose of dying for the lost betrays a very Christianity-centered bias that is directly opposed to the theme and tone of the work. The central theme of the work is Jesus's human struggle with his perceived divine obligations, as well as Judas's struggle with the same issues. 3. "Judas is of the belief that the only pupose for the Messiah is to lead his people (the Jews) in political revolt against the Romans..." First: 'purpose' is misspelled. Second: this is entirely false. It is Simon of Zealotes who argues that Jesus should lead the people in political revolt, not Judas. [SIMON: "Keep them yelling their devotion, but add a touch of hate at Rome. You will rise to a greater power, and we will win ourselves a home."] Judas's main concern throughout the work (aside from his doubts about Jesus's divinity) stems from his belief that their primary goal should be raising money for, caring for and providing for the poor. [JUDAS: Woman, your fine ointments, brand new and expensive, should have been saved for the poor. Why has it been wasted? We could have raised maybe 300 silver pieces or more.] Further, according to the text, Judas doesn't think the purpose of the Messiah is different from what Jesus thinks it is, he believes Jesus is not the Messiah. [JUDAS: They think they've found the new Messiah, and they'll hurt you when they find they're wrong.] 4. "Judas fears that Jesus will doom the Jewish people to destruction at the hands of the Romans without ever understanding Christ's true purpose." I have no problem with this sentence, except for the word 'true.' It's true that Judas thinks Jesus's actions will have negative effects on the Jews as a people. It's true that he doesn't understand what Jesus is trying to do. But nowhere in the text is it conceded that Jesus's true purpose is to die for sinners and redeem them through his sacrifice. Indeed, the resurrection was left out of the play, presumably precisely because the play was never intended to take definitive side in this debate. Clearly there is tension between Judas's belief that Jesus was not divine and Jesus's (never stated) belief that he was. That conflict was not resolved in the play and I have to believe that lack of resolution was intentional. The truly ironic thing about this claim is that the closest the issue comes to being resolved is when Judas flirts with the idea of becoming a believer. [JUDAS: God, I'm sick. I've been used and you knew all the time. I will never understand why you chose me for your crime.] At his death, Judas laments his role in Jesus's capture and torture and admits, if only to God, that he understands that both Jesus and God intended for him to betray Jesus. He doesn't say it, but the logical conclusion of the admission is that God intended for Jesus to die and be martyred. The next logical step leads to the conclusion that Jesus actually was divine. However, Judas's near-conversion aside, throwing around terms like 'Christ's true purpose' in an article that is supposed to remain neutral shows a deep misunderstanding of Jesus Christ Superstar's true purpose. 5. "It's exactly this lack of understanding of Christ's purpose to die as a sacrafice for mankind that motivates Judas' drive toward the betrayal of God (in the person of the Christ, the Son of God). Judas betrays Christ because he cannot force Him to conform to the worldly view of humanism." I'm… just at a loss. First, 'sacrifice' is misspelled and the proper possessive form of 'Judas' is 'Judas's'. Second, there's no part of this that is about Jesus Christ Superstar. This is, start to finish, religious pontification that has nothing to do with the play, the characters it portrays, the doubts they express, the struggles they go through or the conclusions they reach. This belongs in an opinion piece in a Christian magazine, not in a neutral article about an artistic endeavor even though that artistic endeavor focuses on religious and Christian subject matter. I'd have had no problem with this paragraph if it had at least pretended to be discussing how the play deals with faith, spirituality and examination of the veracity of the claims made by Christians about Christ's divinity, but it doesn't. It has nothing to do with those things. It's merely a mini-sermon masquerading as a summary and it should be removed. Davidnowlin ( talk) 01:20, 24 November 2009 (UTC) While it's true that the text depicts Judas as becoming alarmed by Christ's claim to divinity, [JUDAS: I remember when this whole thing began. No talk of God then, we called you a man.] there's nothing in the text about Jesus's revealing his purpose of dying for the lost. Indeed for about 60% of the play, Jesus's purpose appears to be to avoid dying at all. [JESUS: I only want to say, if there is a way, take this cup away from me. I don't want to taste its poison.] If for no other reason, this characterization is faulty for its timing alone, as Judas expresses his alarm at the beginning of the first Act and Jesus does not consent to be sacrificed until the beginning of the second Act. [JESUS: God, thy will is hard, but you hold every card. I will drink your cup of poison.] Additionally, portraying the Jesus depicted in the play as having a purpose of dying for the lost betrays a very Christianity-centered bias that is directly opposed to the theme and tone of the work. The central theme of the work is Jesus's human struggle with his perceived divine obligations, as well as Judas's struggle with the same issues. 3. "Judas is of the belief that the only pupose for the Messiah is to lead his people (the Jews) in political revolt against the Romans..." First: 'purpose' is misspelled. Second: this is entirely false. It is Simon of Zealotes who argues that Jesus should lead the people in political revolt, not Judas. [SIMON: "Keep them yelling their devotion, but add a touch of hate at Rome. You will rise to a greater power, and we will win ourselves a home."] Judas's main concern throughout the work (aside from his doubts about Jesus's divinity) stems from his belief that their primary goal should be raising money for, caring for and providing for the poor. [JUDAS: Woman, your fine ointments, brand new and expensive, should have been saved for the poor. Why has it been wasted? We could have raised maybe 300 silver pieces or more.] Further, according to the text, Judas doesn't think the purpose of the Messiah is different from what Jesus thinks it is, he believes Jesus is not the Messiah. [JUDAS: They think they've found the new Messiah, and they'll hurt you when they find they're wrong.] 4. "Judas fears that Jesus will doom the Jewish people to destruction at the hands of the Romans without ever understanding Christ's true purpose." I have no problem with this sentence, except for the word 'true.' It's true that Judas thinks Jesus's actions will have negative effects on the Jews as a people. It's true that he doesn't understand what Jesus is trying to do. But nowhere in the text is it conceded that Jesus's true purpose is to die for sinners and redeem them through his sacrifice. Indeed, the resurrection was left out of the play, presumably precisely because the play was never intended to take definitive side in this debate. Clearly there is tension between Judas's belief that Jesus was not divine and Jesus's (never stated) belief that he was. That conflict was not resolved in the play and I have to believe that lack of resolution was intentional. The truly ironic thing about this claim is that the closest the issue comes to being resolved is when Judas flirts with the idea of becoming a believer. [JUDAS: God, I'm sick. I've been used and you knew all the time. I will never understand why you chose me for your crime.] At his death, Judas laments his role in Jesus's capture and torture and admits, if only to God, that he understands that both Jesus and God intended for him to betray Jesus. He doesn't say it, but the logical conclusion of the admission is that God intended for Jesus to die and be martyred. The next logical step leads to the conclusion that Jesus actually was divine. However, Judas's near-conversion aside, throwing around terms like 'Christ's true purpose' in an article that is supposed to remain neutral shows a deep misunderstanding of Jesus Christ Superstar's true purpose. 5. "It's exactly this lack of understanding of Christ's purpose to die as a sacrafice for mankind that motivates Judas' drive toward the betrayal of God (in the person of the Christ, the Son of God). Judas betrays Christ because he cannot force Him to conform to the worldly view of humanism." I'm… just at a loss. First, 'sacrifice' is misspelled and the proper possessive form of 'Judas' is 'Judas's'. Second, there's no part of this that is about Jesus Christ Superstar. This is, start to finish, religious pontification that has nothing to do with the play, the characters it portrays, the doubts they express, the struggles they go through or the conclusions they reach. This belongs in an opinion piece in a Christian magazine, not in a neutral article about an artistic endeavor even though that artistic endeavor focuses on religious and Christian subject matter. |
I'd have had no problem with this paragraph if it had at least pretended to be discussing how the play deals with faith, spirituality and examination of the veracity of the claims made by Christians about Christ's divinity, but it doesn't. It has nothing to do with those things. It's merely a mini-sermon masquerading as a summary and it should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidnowlin ( talk • contribs) 01:16, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
- ::::Lex, yes I agree that sources should be given, and I should have said that. However, it looks as if most of the suggestions are about typos (no source needed) and issues to do with the plot (which can be sourced from the libretto - David has already given them, they just need to be formatted properly). They don't look controversial and objections would seem unlikely, so I think this is about being WP:BOLD and not asking for permission to edit when the whole point of WP is that you don't need it. Apologies for getting all defensive, and I see that Moonridden girl has hit upon what may be a better way forward anyway. -- FormerIP ( talk) 01:52, 24 November 2009 (UTC)