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I'm posting this question based on a discussion I've found my self drawn into related to One America News Network [ [1]]. There is a related RSN discussion here [ [2]]. My interest in the topic is because I'm seeing a pattern that I've seen in other examples where editors are trying to decide how to label an article subject. The examples I've typically seen are if a subject should be called "Right-wing" or "Far-Right". I suspect there are plenty of similar cases with things like "minority POV" vs "fringe POV" etc. Often it seems the choice is made by which ever faction has the most editors vs via any logical method. Sources can range from relatively objective sources about the subject to very partisan/biased sources that mention the subject in passing but are primarily about something other than the Wiki-article subject. Should we give more weight to sources about the subject vs sources that just mention the subject in passing? How many examples of use do we need to decide a label sticks? For example if we find 10 sources that refer to something as "Far-..." is that enough to decide it's "far-..."? What if other sources just call it "..."? Do 10 sources that call it "..." balance out those that call it "far..."? I'm interested in soliciting opinions because this sort of things comes up frequently on many topics.
Oppose - I don't believe that this question can be answered as posed, and one of the main reasons for that is that the same editors who demand strictly-defined areas of doubt and uncertainty, mutually exclusive categories along the political spectrum tend to the same editors who insist that otherwise reliable sources be discounted because of these editors' subjective perceptions of media as "biased". In this context, the only alternative to editorial gut + weight of numbers is an endless parade of
original research and moving goalposts, which would be the inevitable result of any pseudo-"principle" in this domain.
Newimpartial (
talk) 23:35, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
And this is where I get back to oppose - in matters of judgement, it is not our role as editors to evaluate labels by "supporting evidence": that is OR and typically leads, once again, to meandering, goalpost-moving discussions about Nazis. Nor is it our job to "decide which is the consensus label", as if there shouldn't be more than one. In cases where none of them has been disputed - and the failure of an RS to use a label should not necessarily be taken as contesting said label - our job is to apply all the relevant labels within the rules of good prose style and sensitivity to context. If what you wanted from this discussion was an actual, policy-based rule for the application of political labels, there it is. Newimpartial ( talk) 11:15, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
I would say, yes use, bit do not state it as fact unless a preponderance of top line RS say it. But it that means case by case and subjectiveness. I am not wholly happy with that, but would be less happy not calling a spade a spade in the name of false POV adherence. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:38, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
To Guy's credit, he lent some nuance to his view a sentence further down in the discusssion:::How on earth are we supposed to separate the genuinely insane - the Dinesh d'Souzas and Alex Joneses - from the merely rabid? Guy ( help!) 21:40, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
I agree with him there, that there is no objective standard. ':::: Springee, yes, that is a fair point, and there is of course no objective standard. But there are ideas that are clearly identified with the far right. White nationalism, for example, and any normalisation or promotion of that. Guy
User:Hunan201p keeps having countless disputes with everyone, manipulating wiki rules, remove every edit he disagrees with, he seems to do whatever he wants. Here are things that have a problem of neutral point of view ; Removing important essential text from the references he sourced, placing unverified date sources and 14th century historian references above 13th century dated historians, replacing a text from a original sourced reference with another reference that doesn't match. I asked him times and times but again he doesn't answer any of my questions in my talk page. He is fully aware of WP:NOR , WP:NPOV but doesn't care and have been doing this since March.
/info/en/?search=Genghis_Khan#Physical_appearance ( Current version of his edits remains unchanged)
Placing historical century dates wrong and upside down
In the Georgian Royal Annals, Genghis Khan is described as a large, good-looking man, with red hair.[103] <--- No date provided, no verification and but places it above 13th century descriptions.
British historian Frank McLynn describes Genghis Khan as a good-looking man with red hair.[104] <--- Again, placing 14th century historian above 13th century historians.
Removing some essential text from the references he cited and cherrypicking only the parts he wants
Although the factual nature of this statement is controversial, the Persian historian Rashid al-Din said that Genghis Khan and his male-line ancestors were tall, and red-haired. He also said that they had blue-green eyes, and that they had long beards.[99] <----- This was his original edit which
The Persian historian Rashid al-Din stated in his 14th-century Jami' al-tawarikh (Compendium of Chronicles) that Genghis Khan and his male-line ancestors were tall, and red-haired.....[109] " <--- He removed the important parts.
Refuse to verify, refuse to explain his removal
(Dating maintenance tags:
verification needed <----- this was sent by
User:AnomieBOT to verify the original reference he used
Removed verification tag erroneously placed on bluelinked reference to PLOSone study <----- Hunan201p said, which is a lie. He was not able to provide a verification link for what Rashid al-Din said.
Hunan201p is clearly having a neutral point of view so I ping @
DIYeditor and
Doug Weller: to please help out. Hunan201p currently have endless disputes with many respected editor and just removes what he doesn't like. He is obviously having a neutral point of view
Queenplz (
talk) 07:18, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
{Ping|User:Hemiauchenia}} Thoughs? Please give me some advice on how to deal with this. You seem to know a lot. Is Hunan201p having a neutral point of view ? I would like to know please Queenplz ( talk) 04:40, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
I believe Queenplz was trying to correctly ping editors @ Hemiauchenia: and @ DIYeditor: in helping her with dealing Hunan201's problematic behaviours, in the Genghis Khan article, but her ping din't work out as well. I currently also have the same problem with Hunan201p in the blonde article, and is blantantly committing POV, NPOV, WEASEAL, FRINGE THEORIES by including mythical and unconfirmed historical figures as blond and also ethnic groups that don't correspond with modern ethnic groups. He also have reported me, Tobby72, Queenplz Qiushufang in sockpuppet investigation and tried to link me up with them weeks ago, after I told him to explain why he keeps including unconfirmed myths as facts. Is Hunan201p the only editor that can ge away with editing the way he likes ? I believe wikipedia reputation could suffer because Hunan201p is always having disputes with other editors and gets away with doing what he wants. Shinoshijak ( talk) 07:13, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
References
If a certain issue is shown not to be present at all in every one of several biographies of a subject editors have found and reviewed, but is discussed in another work where the subject is mentioned in passing, does it relate to the article being neutral nor not? This is a bit vague, I know, so let me give an example. Subject XYZ has been written up in a number of academic works, and we have found close to 10 reliable biographies of his life, ranging from a page-long treatment to article length (20 pages). None of those biographies discuss his attitude or actions towards Foo group in a specific period of his life. However, in a number of reliable sources dedicated to the issues related to the Foo group, he is mentioned in passing as having spoken about that group, occasionally in a manner that has caused controversy and led to some criticism. One editor, A, who recently expanded the article on subject XYZ is claiming that the issue, as not mentioned at all in any biography of the subject, is too niche to be discussed in the article, and that discussing this issue at any length, or possibly at all, would cause the article to be non-neutral due to WP:UNDUE. Another editor, B, demands that this topic should be written up in the body of the article on subject XYZ, preferably in a paragraph or even a section, and demands that the article is tagged with a POV template until their demands are met (that editor did not edit the article extensively, nor did they attempt to write such a section themselves). What about the viability of the {{ POV}}? Currently the article does not discuss the issue sufficiently to appease editor B, who has added the POV tag, which has then been removed by editor A, as well as another editor C. Editor B claims that the tag should remain until the issue is discussed in the article at more length. Should the tag be restored? What should be done? An WP:RFC about whether the issue is UNDUE or not? Is this even an issue of neutrality? At what point is a topic too minor to be an issue? Is not being discussed in any biography of a subject a valid argument to claim that the article is neutral without mentioning this issue, and would be non-neutral if it was to be discussed? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:22, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Hi everyone,
I want to make sure Wikipedia stays a place for facts alone and a reliable source. There is an article beginning that in my judgment violates neutral point of view, by means of stating opinions as facts. It's stated for Neutral point of view on Wikipedia to "Avoid stating opinions as facts."
The page for the movie God's Not Dead 2 states this on top:
"... It is a sequel to the 2014 film God's Not Dead, continuing its themes of the Christian persecution complex and two-dimensional stereotypes of atheists.[5] It follows a high school teacher facing a court case that could end her career, after having answered a student's question about Jesus- an apparent inversion of historical cases of prosecution of science teachers over the teaching of evolution.[6] It presents an evangelical perspective on the separation of church and state that is "wholly divorced from any rational understanding of the topic".[1]"
I believe saying that it has two-dimensional stereotypes is opinion, not fact. Also I believe saying it has the theme of a Christian persecution complex is definitely negative, and again I think stating the movie has it is opinion not fact. Lastly I think saying it's "wholly divorced from any rational understanding of the topic" is again definitely an opinion, and also quite negative. Frankly I think it makes the movie look bad overall too.
I believe as a whole this puts opinion as fact and also could make people who do like this movie (every movie has fans and critics) feel unwelcome. I also wanted to state this was in the introduction of the page. That section is for summary and I believe should at least be cautious if it's going to include cited opinions, only do so if truly necessary and relevant, and should state them clearly as opinions.
Opinions can be listed as opinions on Wikipedia, but I think the source of the opinion has to be stated. Only one piece of this, the "rational understanding" part, is in quotes, with a source not explained in text (footnote only).
What does everyone think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.69.13.139 ( talk) 22:51, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
Incipient NPOV dispute at Talk:Mortara case#One source issues. What exactly constitutes a fact vs. an opinion, and if it is the latter, should it be attributed to the scholarly authors? Is the fact even credible based on the chain of attribution and my personal incredulity? Elizium23 ( talk) 01:14, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
I'm seeing a pattern of (I believe) POV-pushing at Habesha peoples. I think this has gone on for at least a year or two, but I'm only noticing after more closely watching the history of the article for the past month or so. I've previously raised my concerns at Talk:Habesha peoples. There appears to be an effort to document how the term "Habesha" has grown more inclusive of Ethiopians and Eritreans in general, rather than its older, more exclusive meaning of (for example) Amharic-, Tigrinya- and Agaw-speaking peoples. I'm not objecting to nor disputing that, per se. The problem is that HoAHabesha and (to a lesser extent) Llakew18 are doing so by adding content that suits their effort, while citing sources that don't actually (or at best, partially) back up their content. For example, the same content was added three times, each time citing a different source(s) when I raised an issue with the previous citation(s):
More recently, Llakew18 added content along with a citation of a new source, 02:06, 16 April 2020, but the citation didn't corroborate the text. (Although, it did corroborate something that HoAHabesha had tried to add earlier, and as it was otherwise a useful reference, I left it in place after clarifying the context.)
In one case, a citation was constructed to appear as though it appeared in an academic journal.
The appearance in the academic journal is highly doubtful at best, and I had previously raised my concerns about it (along with the content citing it) at Talk:Habesha peoples/Archives/2020/June#Synthesis, POV. From there, I summoned Doug Weller who had previously interacted with HoAHabesha concerning this same article. But that was before I saw this overlap between HoAHabesha, Hoaeter/Hoaeter1, and 192.5.215.225, which I only noticed in the course of writing up this report. (I had already suspected that HoAHabesha had edited from 192.5.215.225; see also Talk:Habesha peoples/Archives/2020/May#Source redux.)
I'm aware of varying definitions of "Habesha", though also in the context of people who don't consider themselves to be included -- in the newer context of the article, they might be considered nationalists, hence another aspect of the POV issue.
Over the course of writing this report I see that this is deeper and has gone on longer than I'd initially noticed. At this point I am not sure whether this report belongs here, or WP:NORN (where I had brought this earlier), or WP:SPI, or WP:LTA — or all the above. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 01:24, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
: Hey, here is the main issue, because this "Habesha" identity is fluid and an ever changing concept from one context to another and between individual sub-groups and in some cases shows similarities to a sub-culture. Academia has barley not cought up with the different uses. All I know is that either you have to be in the culture, or have to rely on non-traditional sources to give this pan-ethnic group justice in how it is described. What I've seen from my time editing Wikipedia and how I've seen the various re-occurring editors edit (just look at the talk page from past months and years in the Archive), I can easily tell if the editor is relying on various authentic sources that show different perspectives of identity or if the editor is using a outdated sources filled with pejorative terms, that don't take into consideration how the word is used within the culture, nor how the current generation self-identifies with it. So what I would say is that in order to get this issue over with, we editors need to make a consensus to lax the rules on the use of non-academic journal sources, show all the sides of this, let the reader make their own conclusions of what all of these various meanings mean, and give this cultural group's article some justice. I've see how pages about movies and tv shows have lax rules on sources (that they don't have to use academic journals), lets just make an exception to people groups that don't have as much information about them in academic journals. And lets just move on with this.
Llakew18 (
talk) 02:57, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
How Am I A SocPuppet ?
I literally see multiple re-occurring editors that state similar points with each other all over pages that I have edited. I even sometimes click on the contributions link and put in the editors' user names or IP addresses to look for other similar pages that the editors have edited that I am interested in to edit. I do this all the time looking for things I want to edit. Along the way, I see multiple re-occurring editors that each time, I notice the same admins, the same admins I even recognize you
User talk:Gyrofrog a lot over here to as well. When I see a sentence made by another editor that sounds weird, I rearrange or paraphrase it so it can sound better, that might also be why you think that I might have been a Sockpuppet. I like to edit certain topics that I know about and I click on the previous contributions of other editors to find other pages that are interesting to edit, so can you just remove this SocPuppet accusation, and can I just get back to editing without this looming over my head?
Llakew18 (
talk) 03:11, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Doug Weller: Now that I've looked further back in the article's edit history, I now believe this goes back to 2017, when there was an actual user named Habesha Union, not just the name of the blog that was being cited here. I've re-opened Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Hoaeter. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 10:49, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
I am having a NPOV dispute with User:Horse Eye Jack about linking articles in see also section ( User talk:Pahlevun#WP:coatrack/ Talk:Hostage diplomacy#NPOV). Horse Eye Jack wants to add Hostage diplomacy as a link in see also section of almost every article about people arrested in Iran, while I think see also sections are being used as a "hook" to "hang" irrelevant, undue or biased material there, and a way to evade providing reliable sources in the body that do mention that certain person as part of a hostage diplomacy campaign. I believe this addition pushes a certain POV (suggesting the person accused with crimes is innocent). Any thoughts? Pahlevun ( talk) 21:11, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
There is an ongoing discussion over the lead section of the article on Ufology here: Talk:Ufology#Lead_Section Few editors are participating and some additional reviews would be appreciated to ensure the lead of this WP:FRINGE topic represents it accurately and with an appropriate NPOV. Thanks -- {{u| Gtoffoletto}} talk 13:35, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
There has been continued discussion and failure to reach consensus on whether Taiwan should be called a "country" or "state" on the Taiwan article: Talk:Taiwan#Taiwan...is_a_country? I've opened an RfC to come to consensus. User:Stephen Balaban - 09:58, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Dear colleagues, edit warring and other nonsense has erupted at the Joe Biden article. The matter of contention relates to various recent allegations of inappropriate social and sexual conduct. Any fresh eyes on that article would be helpful. SPECIFICO talk 14:55, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
Pulitzer Prize are a renowned international award. As per wikipedia policy, this article not in the wikipedia. Beacuse the sources are not strong about this controversy, some political leaders comment in the news only. There is WP:NPOV#Impartial_tone, WP:NPOV#Bias_in_sources, WP:NPOV#Balancing_different_views issues. Jubair Sayeed Linas ( talk) 03:56, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
Non-admin close - "There's a legitimate content issue here worthy of attention." No, content issues are handled on the article talk page or other places; this is the place for viewpoint issues. -- Calton | Talk 06:58, 7 May 2020 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
At Democratic Socialists of America, there has been a prolonged dispute over a single sentence regarding an incident at a convention documented in multiple reliable sources. This began with a discussion of over-reliance on primary sources throughout the article and insufficient use of secondary sources, especially those with critical content. In a section on the group's views on Israel, the article previously noted that, following the passage of a resolution by the organization endorsing the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions movement against Israel, a number of attendees broke into a chant, "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free." The chant was recorded in a video posted to social media. Two news organizations picked up on this and reported the story: The Times of Israel and The Daily Beast. The Times of Israel is a highly circulated Israeli newspaper staffed by generally prominent journalists and has been responsible for high-quality investigative reporting. The Daily Beast is recognized at WP:RSP as reliable. With these two sources, the content clearly meets WP:DUE. The Daily Beast also offered background on why this particular chant is controversial: it is interpreted by some as calling for the end of Israel. The Times of Israel also noted an alternative interpretation, that it simply calls for the end of the occupation. Both of these were noted in the prior version of the article. This content was removed by @
Objective3000:, based on the argument that it is an NPOV violation, essentially because this editor believes the journalist to be incorrect. Editor casts doubt on the reporting, saying This amounts to an NPOV content dispute on its face, but I believe that the arguments above reflect a lack of adherence to NPOV by the editors removing the material, not the opinions expressed in reliable sources. A core tenet of WP:NPOV is that reliable sources are allowed to have opinions, but editors are not. The reasoning accompanying repeated removal of this text gets this backwards, IMO, and I'm seeking community input on this disagreement. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 01:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
No one has disputed that the language matter-of-factly addressed the information in the underlying sources and that both sources are reliable. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 04:03, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
I agree with O3000 that inclusion of the claim about the chant is undue. It is not surprising that a small number of pro-Israeli journalists tried to read a far-fetched interpretation into chanting by some people at a DSA meeting. The real issue that the Israeli government and its supporters are concerned about is support for the Boycott, Divertiture, and Sanctions (BDS) movement, and they consistently promote the false allegation that supporters of BDS are anti-semitic and opposed to the existence of Israel. Claims of that sort are extraordinary, and should not be included in articles unless reported by unbiased mainstream journalists. NightHeron ( talk) 13:23, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
A quote from your post: The real issue that the Israeli government and its supporters are concerned about is support for the Boycott, Divertiture, and Sanctions (BDS) movement, and they consistently promote the false allegation that supporters of BDS are anti-semitic and opposed to the existence of Israel.This is what you posted to an NPOV noticeboard -- an ideological screed/diversion with no references to sources, policy, or the relevant content of the article. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 18:02, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Objective3000 Do not make a bad-faith accusation of straw men again. For someone who repeatedly claims FOC, you show no interest in following that policy.
Rules for thee but not for me. NightHeron, this is not an appropriate forum to debate BDS, DSA, or any aspect of the political issue you just described. This is precisely the problem. The characterization of the slogan as controversial is documented in numerous reliable and mainstream sources. This is just one side of the dispute, of course. Are there differing interpretations? Yes. Both were covered in the article. It's not our job to assert one as correct and the other as incorrect.
Wikieditor19920 (
talk) 18:28, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Again, the hypocrisy is astonishing. Engage with other editors as you want to be treated. Do not make repeated accusations of strawmen or other personal criticisms.
Comment Objective3000 is clearly continuing to make arguments in the same vein at the talk page, and I will not continue responding because the exchange obviously goes nowhere. Editor is now making slight nods to policy but this is disingenuous. The dispute seems to center on the interpretation of the slogan "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free." Editors assert that these two reliable sources are wrong for noting the controversial history of this statement (Because the Daily Beast , or suggesting that they alone view the slogan as controversial. Apparently the sources are "Israeli" means they are biased and or untrustworthy. However, the phrase has a history of controversy that goes well beyond these two sources, which merely summarized the history. Editors are simply arguing that interpretations of the phrase as offensive are wrong. This is classic NPOV-violating behavior: engaging in a substantive dispute rather than adhering to what sources say. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 17:59, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
I struck the comment and am perfectly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Nonetheless, this is a wholesale diversion from the central issue. Multiple reliable sources have reported on this matter. Your belief that these sources are wrong and vague accusations of bias is not an appropriate reason for removal. Again, NPOV requires we describe disputes, not engage in them. There is a dispute over the meaning of the slogan, and some sources note that it has a negative connotation. This is allowed when it adheres to a reliable sources. You cannot remove reference to this viewpoint because you disagree with it.
Wikieditor19920 (
talk) 19:57, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
|
Dealing with an editor who is trying to gloss over Ross Ulbricht, the creator of darknet market Silk Road. WHS Dad (and to a lesser extent at this time NeutralInfo) has taken it upon themselves to describe Ross in the first line of the article as an 'entrepreneur.'
Ulbricht is a libertarian who tried to characterize Silk Road, which was mostly used for selling illegal drugs, as a social experiment of a market with no regulations, and WHS is parroting this line. Their rationale, posted on the talk page as well as edit descriptions, is that describing him in a way that acknowledges he's best known for illegal activity (the previous description of Ulbricht was as a 'convict,' possibly done by someone who just didn't want to call him a drug trafficker) constitutes an unfair lean towards "Government Point Of View." Instead, WHS is treating him like a legitimate businessman.
Left a reply to WHS' rationale on the talk page. Given their last edit consisted of parroting the talking points of Ulbricht's family/advocates' website, I don't think they'll listen. -- Lenin and McCarthy | ( Complain here) 22:12, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
In March and April 2020, The Federalist (website) wrote articles denouncing coronovirus social distancing measures as an attempt to intentionally destroy the U.S. economy for political reasons, and temporarily had their twitter account suspended for promoting fringe ideas about coronovirus that contradicted public health experts. There is some content to this effect under the subsection heading "Coronavirus pandemic misinformation". In order to satisfy concerns that the heading violates NPOV, does the word "Alleged" need to be added to the subsection heading, i.e., "Alleged Coronavirus pandemic misinformation"? AzureCitizen ( talk) 17:31, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
Lack of Neutrality Alert regarding live person - /info/en/?search=Alan_Sears
I made changes to a page and an administrator Doug_Weller removed it - and told me to go to NPOV page, so I'm here.
Here is the diff page: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Alan_Sears&diff=prev&oldid=933843714
The information that I object to:
[The book was described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as "an anti-LGBT call to arms that links homosexuality to pedophilia and other 'disordered sexual behavior.'"[8]]
in context is contentious regarding the author of the book briefly mentioned, Alan Sears, especially when the quotation is merely an opinion. Putting a negative statement about a live person, without providing a balance on the other side or any contrary viewpoint is not permissible. We need to be more cautious about posting regarding live persons.
The reliable sources says about using SPLC "Take care to ensure that content from the SPLC constitutes due weight in the article and conforms to the biographies of living persons policy." The BLP requires a neutral point of view (NPOV) - /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons I submit that the statement about Alan Sears is not from a neutral point of view, as it does not present any information about the book other than that one quote. NPOV requires "representing fairly, proportionately... all the significant views ... on a topic." Also: "A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject)...." The choice of words in the post about Alan Sears's book is one-sided and is not neutral.
-- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 20:13, 6 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- It seems we could at least label SPLC left-leaning, liberal or at least the most neutral term, "activist." The paragraph about the book tells readers nothing about the book other than what an activist group thinks. I thought Wikipedia was to inform not to sway. And, we're getting into the "hate group" debate, which is not what Wikipedia is for, so i would strike that "SPLC is biased against hate groups" -- which is circular anyway, as they define "hate groups." -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 15:27, 7 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- I understand. I easily found a reliable source, The Hill, which states "The Southern Poverty Law Center, an activist group tracking hate groups in the U.S...." -- so we should be able to add that label before SPLC, as "activist" is used to describe organizations that are on various sides of issue advocacy and action. It has no negative connotation, but would help clarify that the SPLC is a private organization and not as some may think, merely a law firm or an agency. -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 16:10, 7 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- Activism -- I see no negative connotation here and we could add this Wikipedia link to explain. BTW, I put The Hill link that I was missing, above. Even in that context there is nothing negative behind the word in the article.
I'd like to add that and move on to other articles. :) -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 15:28, 11 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
The article already has both conspiratorial and non-conspiratorial theories of the Deep State in the United States complete with accepted, consensus RS. Editors are POV pushing that only material that supports conspiratorial theories should be on the page and are resisting the elaboration of non-conspiratorial variants that are already accepted in the text. RFC tried and failed to resolve the issue. TMLutas ( talk) 19:02, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
The NPOV notice has been improperly removed. I let that go a few weeks ago for a different NPOV request and instead went to a fruitless, RfC process that resolved nothing. I request sanctions proper to the situation at Deep State in the United States. TMLutas ( talk) 19:57, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Could editors please take a look at the East StratCom Task Force article, particularly with regard to the Criticism section? It appears that an SPA has reverted their material (or parts thereof) back into the article several times now. In the longer term, some watchers would probably also be helpful. Sunrise ( talk) 17:59, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
There is a pov pushing attempt trying to take sourced content of that article related with religion and other spiritual beliefs. A WP:POVFORK was created [11] with that purpose and despite that there was consensus in the talk page that the relevant content should be in the original article, there is an attempt [12] to delete both the content moved from the fork and the tags noting the problem under the rationale that the article was "stable form for well over a year now". Rupert Loup ( talk) 21:01, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
An image of Sigmund Freud is included in both these articles. In one the caption is "Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis", in the other it additionally says "Bieber and his colleagues discuss Freud's views".
Freud, a Victorian, apparently believed that homosexuality was aberrant. I think most of us will be aware that Freud had many idiosyncratic opinions on sex that were bound up in the fashion for psychoanalysis, but are not nowe considered scientific. The question is whether including a photograph of a distinguished-looking Freud as "the founder of psychoanalysis" lends undue weight to his outdated views on homosexuality in the context of authors writing in the 1960s.
The argument is that a (captioned) photograph of Freud does not imply any conferral of legitimacy. I dispute this. Freud is dramatically more famous than any of the article subjects or the other sources and influences discussed, and the lay reader probably doesn't know that psychoanalysis is disputed and several of Freud's ideas are no longer accepted: he has the status of quite probably the best-known figure in the entire history of mental health in terms of name recognition. I see this as asymmetric and likely to imply a degree of support that is absent from the actual subject matter of these books, which promote conversion therapy (a pseudoscience whose promotion is actually illegal in several jurisdictions due to the harms it inflicts). It is hard to see how a lay reader will fail to infer from the link to Freud that the idea of homosexuality as aberrant is a part of mainstream psychological practice, rather than what it is, an idiosyncratic and outmoded personal opinion on the part of an influential but scientifically controversial figure. Guy ( help!) 21:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
There is a dispute over the neutrality of the page Toxic_masculinity, over whether or not to include a particular phrase in the heading. One user is arguing that we should include the phrase "The use of the term has come under scrutiny for the implied meaning that gender-related issues are caused by inherent male traits, an idea that has been criticized by Michael Salter, a professor of Criminology at the University of New South Wales" (with a citation to the article written by said professor), as seen here. Another editor is arguing that this phrase - and any mention of the use of term being disputed - should be entirely excluded from the heading. Discussion on the topic failed, and the page is now protected until the dispute is resolved. EditSafe ( talk) 02:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, 1) whose work in the relevant field 2) has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.The "Toxic masculinity" concept is almost certainly within the broader field of sociology, and this professor has published and been cited in relevant works in that field. If Newt Gingrich or anyone else meets the criteria for SELFPUB, they can be considered an expert. Are you trying to exclude this material because you don't like this person's opinion or because you don't think the elements of WP:SELFPUB are met? Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 21:34, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
The lead is a summery of the article, thus it should only be there if there is a significant material (in OUR article) about this criticism. If there is we do not need quotes or extensive commentary in the lead, that should go in the body. Slatersteven ( talk) 11:17, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
I said it's appropriate to include it in the body but maybe not the lead. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 19:01, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
I see a Time and a Vice piece cited in this article. Let's not be so high and mighty.If you actually read and understood the article, you'd know that the Time essay by another recognized scholar is used for a basic, factual statement about how the concept is used in psychology. The Vice article is a third-party reference supporting a statement by John Stoltenberg. We already have a source for that from NYU press, so I think the Vice reference could be simply cut. Once again, Where do you see any similar sources being cited for the authors' opinions (or "criticism", as phrased here)?
'Toxic masculinity' is a popularized term that some academics have given weight to with peer reviewed articles offering different interpretations." Meme" is another term from academia that was "popularized" online. That doesn't mean we suddenly favor popular sources over academic ones. Raewyn Connell wrote about "toxic" masculine behaviors in a 2005 academic journal article, well before the current popular usage. And of course Michael Kimmel documented its original usage in an academic work from 1995. In any case, academic sources are generally the most reliable.
This is not neuroscience. Michael Salter is a published academic who has written on issues of gender, masculinity, and gender violence.You're evading the question. Where do you see him listed as a professor of sociology as you claimed? — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:24, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
On the contrary, this may be more a question of how much you're willing to stretch the meaning of policies and guidelines to include criticism of a topic you dislike.
Uncalled for. You are repeatedly misconstruing policy and the issues (the "dueling op-eds" is a clever example, and totally misrepresents what we're discussing) to exclude an opinion for unclear reasons. We've established that Salter has published pieces in reliable, independent, academic sources on masculinity/gender/gender violence. This is enough to make him a subject-matter expert for this article, and his commentary seems relevant. Relentlessly and endlessly arguing against inclusion of opinions
you don't like is disruptive an non-compliant with NPOV. EditSafe was right to bring this up here, and I see the issue. I'm not changing my stance on this, and I believe inclusion is clearly permitted. For factual issues like the history of the term toxic masculinity, I would view a secondary source as better. For stances that are strictly his opinion, with in-text attribution, finding an independent source is less of a concern. This is a sensible application of policy, not a stretch.
Wikieditor19920 (
talk) 02:44, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
I think that's a separate issue, and a question of how much you want to make the article about Donald Trump.Uncalled-for indeed.
You are repeatedly misconstruing policy and the issues...to exclude an opinion for unclear reasons.I quoted the very same policy as you ( WP:SELFPUB) to show that independent sources are better according to the policy. Your argument that actually, we don't need an independent source because it's just Salter's opinion (if anything, that would call for more caution, not less) is not based on any policy I'm aware of. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 02:57, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
That's more of a WEIGHT issue, than a reliability one.That's the point I've been making: that Salter's opinion, based on an essay from a general-interest news website, is unduly weighted in the article, and that back-and-forth commentary from similar sources would result in a bad article structure that wouldn't add to a meaningful understanding of the topic (which was my point in referring to "dueling op-eds"). Our goal should be to reflect the predominant views of the most reliable sources, not a
diverse array of opinions; that's the same error EditSafe made with their "differing views" comment.My own
common-sense readingof the policy says we should stick to "independent sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy [with] a professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments", which generally means avoiding mass-media commentary unless otherwise mentioned in more reliable sources. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 03:59, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
reliable publication, full stop?
I think that policy allows these types of sources to be used– that isn't the locus of this dispute. Nevertheless, I'm fine with using the source for uncontroversial, factual statements. It only leads to an unencyclopedic structure and undue weight when we start using it as a primary source for the author's opinion. Where does NPOV say anything about
diversityof views? — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 22:26, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
reliable enough, you could try addressing the substance of these concerns. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 22:42, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
To repeat, we should stick to secondary sources, and scholarly ones where possible...None of the other popular-media references in the article are used as primary sources for someone's opinion...It only leads to an unencyclopedic structure and undue weight when we start using [the Atlantic piece] as a primary source for the author's opinion.
These concerns are all based on NPOV policy. Where did you or the other contributors "address" these concerns, and where did you cite
policies and/or guidelines? —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk) 13:16, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is section header of discussion.The discussion is about the topic Arbitrarily0. Thank you. -- Linn C Doyle ( talk) 15:03, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is
section header of discussion.The discussion is about the topic
Sword_of_the_Spirit. Thank you. --
Linn C Doyle (
talk) 15:05, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Hello I am currently having what I believe to be a NPOV dispute with user Arbitrarily0 regarding recent edit to page Sword of the Spirit.
The edit made is here.
Page creator has been continuously reverting edits claiming that edit is original research (which has been disputed) and is not relevant (which has been disputed) and is not eloquent enough (which has been disputed). The original reversion is here.
Notably the page creator has also removed a section of the page created by their selves here to which my edit specifically pertains.
User has since taken a third opinion and had me banned from editing for 2 weeks for replacing the edit with comment on talk pages.
I am concerned there is a conflict of interest here, perhaps corporate vanity, and that the user is deliberately misrepresenting my edits (strategic removal of own content, repeated claim of original research where multiple mainstream news sources are cited, unverifiable content by page creator etc.).
The discussion is found here.
I believe my edit is well sourced and contains significant information regarding a significant aspect of the organisation Sword of the Spirit and Servants of the Word history and should be included. I believe if there is an issue with the eloquence or sources then a 'cleanup' should be done rather than categorical removal.
I am concerned that the repeated stonewall deletion of edits, misrepresentation and strategic removal of own content represents a Non-Neutral Viewpoint here and I am seeking an Admin to investigate and help resolve.
This is indeed my first edit. I noticed the page contained unverifiable information and that I had verifiable sources containing further information on the Page Topic that was not included. I do fully intend to add further information on the Sword of the Spirit, Servants of the Word and Word of God Community which I would love to contribute also so I would assert that this is not a single purpose account.
Apologies if reposting edits is a faux pas here. I had assumed that user deleting these articles was perhaps doing so out of Non Neutral Point of View. If a ban is n order for this then that is not contested. I do believe my edit was relevant, verifiable and informative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Linn C Doyle ( talk • contribs) 15:32, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Hello all! Would just like some assistance with the Macuto Bay raid, another controversial Venezuelan article. We seem to have the same group of users working on the page and disputes are getting more nasty (legal threats, etc.), so it would be a good idea to have more pairs of eyes monitoring the article in order to keep it as NPOV and lawful as possible. Thank you.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 15:03, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
A thread in the AN/I has been started and can be consulted as reference. -- Jamez42 ( talk) 15:39, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
There are two separate RfCs at Rupert Sheldrake. The first asks if we should change the opening sentence of the lede to something more readable that preserves the essence of the existing content. The second centers around the question of reducing repetition in the remainder of the lede. Your input is appreciated! HappyWanderer15 ( talk) 01:28, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
There are all kinds of authoritarian systems that run elections that are not free and fair, in part for regimes to appear to be democratic legitimate when they are not. Wikipedia appears to have a problem in terms of lending legitimacy to these elections by failing to clearly describe them as non-democratic. A typical page for an authoritarian election simply says that "X accused it of being non-democratic. Y defended the election." There is an enormous academic literature out there that lists and covers elections run by authoritarians. This literature should be used to clearly label these faux elections as non-democratic. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 14:26, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Hello everyone, I have attempted to start a discussion in the talk page of the article and no responses have been given (ignored). I have marked the article with a POV template and have posted a RFC a while ago and still no change. I'll explain the issues: 1) the article is clearly a POV fork due to the fact that it seems to try to only give negative view points and used biased sources, and the article gets away from the main Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints article. 2) the title itself violated the policy of POV titles 3) there are "beliefs" that are written about that were never officially adopted, and were later repudiated (the people who suggested these beliefs in the church were speaking of opinion and it never represented the views of the mentioned church). 4) critics are used and directly quoted using extremely argumentative and controversial quotes (ie. "the critic so and so said 'this church stinks'" etc.) without there being any evidence provided, and really just being an opinion.
I am open to any feedback/criticisms of my actions so long as alternative actions and evidence/explanations are given. Thank you for your time, PeanutHat ( talk) 08:30, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
I could use some help with this article (and there are related once for other performers) - EdJohnston has the same problem I think. Superfan editors keep reinserting vast swathes of non-notable "awards" that have no reliable independent secondary sources - mainly PR stunts designed to promote the company making the "award". The absolute bare minimum we require to include a disputed award would be a reliable independent secondary source that discusses it. There's virtually no engagement on Talk, and most of them have no edits outside their narrow area of fandom. Their perspective is that removing non-notable awards is " ruining the page". Given that some of the disruption started right about the time Beyhiveboys started kvetching about his partial block, I suspect off-wiki solicitation. It could really do with ECP for a while to get them to engage. Guy ( help!) 09:40, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
On Richard Dawkins there seems to be a tendency to marginalise some of his controversial comments by placing them in a seperate article Political views of Richard Dawkins. There are comments that have been cherry picked for the main article and the controversial comments have been left in the Political views article. An example is the line:
Dawkins identifies as a feminist. He has said that feminism is "enormously important" and "a political movement that deserves to be supported".
However many of his comments have lead to widespread condemnation by feminist groups such as his comments about Rebecca Watson and his comments about rape. These are not even mentioned in the main article despite the high profile nature of his comments and the significant controversy they caused. -- Permareperwiki1664 ( talk) 12:57, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Could do with a few more eyes. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Many readers here are likely aware of the numerous hot topics surrounding the financial and far-right political activities of the new religious movement Falun Gong, particularly among its extensions, including Falun Gong media branch The Epoch Times, performance art branch Shen Yun, and other, lesser known arms, such as the Society of Classical Poets. These topics have received increased media attention since 2016.
What may surprise readers is that English Wikipedia's Falun Gong article somehow mentions absolutely none of this. Given how high-profile these topics have become within the past few years and the account activity occurring around it and related articles, this really needs more eyes.
I've highlighted several recent media sources discussing these topics at this thread. I think this particular discussion would benefit a lot from editors from this board. :bloodofox: ( talk) 21:00, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
I believe we have a neutrality issue in Poland. I wanted to include the following paragraph in Poland#Government and politics (I inserted something similar to Hungary#Government and politics with no resistance), but was reverted twice: [17] [18]
According to Freedom House's Nations in Transit 2020 report, "the quality of democratic governance in Poland continued to deteriorate in 2019, marking [its] fourth consecutive year of decline and its lowest score in [the report]. The most negatively affected areas were the judiciary, local democratic governance, and the pluralism of civil society." [1]
I've opened a discussion at Talk:Poland#Freedom House report. François Robere ( talk) 09:06, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
The Freedom House report did highlight that though the situation deteriorated heavily, democracy is still intactWhere? François Robere ( talk) 13:05, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Some time ago the Polish parliament declared Jesus Christ "King of Poland". A "coronation" was held, which was attended by the Polish President and Prime Minister. This was covered in various outlets, both in Poland and abroad. [33] [34] [35] [36] Poland is a deeply religious country (see Religion in Poland), and as it turns out this idea of crowning Jesus or Mary has a history going back at least 370 years, to the Lwów Oath.
Seeing as this was endorsed by parliament and attended by senior political figures, it seems to merit a mention in Poland#Religion. I've tried making the change, but it was reverted. [37] Discussion is ongoing at Talk:Poland#Jesus Christ King of Poland?. François Robere ( talk) 14:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
parliaments pass random resolutions just about anything, such as national this or that day, or honorary so and so, etc.François Robere ( talk) 19:03, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Demchok is a village in the eponymous Demchok sector, which is part of a border dispute between China and India. Multiple reliable sources say that the entire Demchok sector is administered by China and multiple reliable sources say that the entire Demchok sector is administered by India.
The lead of the article on the village of Demchok was changed to say ( diff):
Demchok is a village and military encampment in the Nyoma tehsil in the Leh district of Ladakh, India
Is this neutral? In my understanding, disputed areas should not assert a claim one way or the other, as is done in high-traffic articles on disputed areas like Western Sahara, Spratly Islands, and Senkaku Islands.
The relevant discussion is here. — MarkH21 talk 13:21, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
The Chinese names and perspective are in violation of Wikipedia's global perspective. The common name in every country (but China) is Reishi and the scientific name is Ganoderma lucidum. Article is written like an advertisement of Traditional Chinese Medicine. Thanks.-wikiNoob
I am on mobile so apologies in advance for limitations. Talk:Chick_Webb#Webbs_B-date could use some input. Numerous RS give different years of birth so how best to treat in the lead without POV. - Sitush ( talk) 10:52, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 75 | ← | Archive 80 | Archive 81 | Archive 82 | Archive 83 | Archive 84 | Archive 85 |
I'm posting this question based on a discussion I've found my self drawn into related to One America News Network [ [1]]. There is a related RSN discussion here [ [2]]. My interest in the topic is because I'm seeing a pattern that I've seen in other examples where editors are trying to decide how to label an article subject. The examples I've typically seen are if a subject should be called "Right-wing" or "Far-Right". I suspect there are plenty of similar cases with things like "minority POV" vs "fringe POV" etc. Often it seems the choice is made by which ever faction has the most editors vs via any logical method. Sources can range from relatively objective sources about the subject to very partisan/biased sources that mention the subject in passing but are primarily about something other than the Wiki-article subject. Should we give more weight to sources about the subject vs sources that just mention the subject in passing? How many examples of use do we need to decide a label sticks? For example if we find 10 sources that refer to something as "Far-..." is that enough to decide it's "far-..."? What if other sources just call it "..."? Do 10 sources that call it "..." balance out those that call it "far..."? I'm interested in soliciting opinions because this sort of things comes up frequently on many topics.
Oppose - I don't believe that this question can be answered as posed, and one of the main reasons for that is that the same editors who demand strictly-defined areas of doubt and uncertainty, mutually exclusive categories along the political spectrum tend to the same editors who insist that otherwise reliable sources be discounted because of these editors' subjective perceptions of media as "biased". In this context, the only alternative to editorial gut + weight of numbers is an endless parade of
original research and moving goalposts, which would be the inevitable result of any pseudo-"principle" in this domain.
Newimpartial (
talk) 23:35, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
And this is where I get back to oppose - in matters of judgement, it is not our role as editors to evaluate labels by "supporting evidence": that is OR and typically leads, once again, to meandering, goalpost-moving discussions about Nazis. Nor is it our job to "decide which is the consensus label", as if there shouldn't be more than one. In cases where none of them has been disputed - and the failure of an RS to use a label should not necessarily be taken as contesting said label - our job is to apply all the relevant labels within the rules of good prose style and sensitivity to context. If what you wanted from this discussion was an actual, policy-based rule for the application of political labels, there it is. Newimpartial ( talk) 11:15, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
I would say, yes use, bit do not state it as fact unless a preponderance of top line RS say it. But it that means case by case and subjectiveness. I am not wholly happy with that, but would be less happy not calling a spade a spade in the name of false POV adherence. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:38, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
To Guy's credit, he lent some nuance to his view a sentence further down in the discusssion:::How on earth are we supposed to separate the genuinely insane - the Dinesh d'Souzas and Alex Joneses - from the merely rabid? Guy ( help!) 21:40, 14 April 2020 (UTC)
I agree with him there, that there is no objective standard. ':::: Springee, yes, that is a fair point, and there is of course no objective standard. But there are ideas that are clearly identified with the far right. White nationalism, for example, and any normalisation or promotion of that. Guy
User:Hunan201p keeps having countless disputes with everyone, manipulating wiki rules, remove every edit he disagrees with, he seems to do whatever he wants. Here are things that have a problem of neutral point of view ; Removing important essential text from the references he sourced, placing unverified date sources and 14th century historian references above 13th century dated historians, replacing a text from a original sourced reference with another reference that doesn't match. I asked him times and times but again he doesn't answer any of my questions in my talk page. He is fully aware of WP:NOR , WP:NPOV but doesn't care and have been doing this since March.
/info/en/?search=Genghis_Khan#Physical_appearance ( Current version of his edits remains unchanged)
Placing historical century dates wrong and upside down
In the Georgian Royal Annals, Genghis Khan is described as a large, good-looking man, with red hair.[103] <--- No date provided, no verification and but places it above 13th century descriptions.
British historian Frank McLynn describes Genghis Khan as a good-looking man with red hair.[104] <--- Again, placing 14th century historian above 13th century historians.
Removing some essential text from the references he cited and cherrypicking only the parts he wants
Although the factual nature of this statement is controversial, the Persian historian Rashid al-Din said that Genghis Khan and his male-line ancestors were tall, and red-haired. He also said that they had blue-green eyes, and that they had long beards.[99] <----- This was his original edit which
The Persian historian Rashid al-Din stated in his 14th-century Jami' al-tawarikh (Compendium of Chronicles) that Genghis Khan and his male-line ancestors were tall, and red-haired.....[109] " <--- He removed the important parts.
Refuse to verify, refuse to explain his removal
(Dating maintenance tags:
verification needed <----- this was sent by
User:AnomieBOT to verify the original reference he used
Removed verification tag erroneously placed on bluelinked reference to PLOSone study <----- Hunan201p said, which is a lie. He was not able to provide a verification link for what Rashid al-Din said.
Hunan201p is clearly having a neutral point of view so I ping @
DIYeditor and
Doug Weller: to please help out. Hunan201p currently have endless disputes with many respected editor and just removes what he doesn't like. He is obviously having a neutral point of view
Queenplz (
talk) 07:18, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
{Ping|User:Hemiauchenia}} Thoughs? Please give me some advice on how to deal with this. You seem to know a lot. Is Hunan201p having a neutral point of view ? I would like to know please Queenplz ( talk) 04:40, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
I believe Queenplz was trying to correctly ping editors @ Hemiauchenia: and @ DIYeditor: in helping her with dealing Hunan201's problematic behaviours, in the Genghis Khan article, but her ping din't work out as well. I currently also have the same problem with Hunan201p in the blonde article, and is blantantly committing POV, NPOV, WEASEAL, FRINGE THEORIES by including mythical and unconfirmed historical figures as blond and also ethnic groups that don't correspond with modern ethnic groups. He also have reported me, Tobby72, Queenplz Qiushufang in sockpuppet investigation and tried to link me up with them weeks ago, after I told him to explain why he keeps including unconfirmed myths as facts. Is Hunan201p the only editor that can ge away with editing the way he likes ? I believe wikipedia reputation could suffer because Hunan201p is always having disputes with other editors and gets away with doing what he wants. Shinoshijak ( talk) 07:13, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
References
If a certain issue is shown not to be present at all in every one of several biographies of a subject editors have found and reviewed, but is discussed in another work where the subject is mentioned in passing, does it relate to the article being neutral nor not? This is a bit vague, I know, so let me give an example. Subject XYZ has been written up in a number of academic works, and we have found close to 10 reliable biographies of his life, ranging from a page-long treatment to article length (20 pages). None of those biographies discuss his attitude or actions towards Foo group in a specific period of his life. However, in a number of reliable sources dedicated to the issues related to the Foo group, he is mentioned in passing as having spoken about that group, occasionally in a manner that has caused controversy and led to some criticism. One editor, A, who recently expanded the article on subject XYZ is claiming that the issue, as not mentioned at all in any biography of the subject, is too niche to be discussed in the article, and that discussing this issue at any length, or possibly at all, would cause the article to be non-neutral due to WP:UNDUE. Another editor, B, demands that this topic should be written up in the body of the article on subject XYZ, preferably in a paragraph or even a section, and demands that the article is tagged with a POV template until their demands are met (that editor did not edit the article extensively, nor did they attempt to write such a section themselves). What about the viability of the {{ POV}}? Currently the article does not discuss the issue sufficiently to appease editor B, who has added the POV tag, which has then been removed by editor A, as well as another editor C. Editor B claims that the tag should remain until the issue is discussed in the article at more length. Should the tag be restored? What should be done? An WP:RFC about whether the issue is UNDUE or not? Is this even an issue of neutrality? At what point is a topic too minor to be an issue? Is not being discussed in any biography of a subject a valid argument to claim that the article is neutral without mentioning this issue, and would be non-neutral if it was to be discussed? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:22, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Hi everyone,
I want to make sure Wikipedia stays a place for facts alone and a reliable source. There is an article beginning that in my judgment violates neutral point of view, by means of stating opinions as facts. It's stated for Neutral point of view on Wikipedia to "Avoid stating opinions as facts."
The page for the movie God's Not Dead 2 states this on top:
"... It is a sequel to the 2014 film God's Not Dead, continuing its themes of the Christian persecution complex and two-dimensional stereotypes of atheists.[5] It follows a high school teacher facing a court case that could end her career, after having answered a student's question about Jesus- an apparent inversion of historical cases of prosecution of science teachers over the teaching of evolution.[6] It presents an evangelical perspective on the separation of church and state that is "wholly divorced from any rational understanding of the topic".[1]"
I believe saying that it has two-dimensional stereotypes is opinion, not fact. Also I believe saying it has the theme of a Christian persecution complex is definitely negative, and again I think stating the movie has it is opinion not fact. Lastly I think saying it's "wholly divorced from any rational understanding of the topic" is again definitely an opinion, and also quite negative. Frankly I think it makes the movie look bad overall too.
I believe as a whole this puts opinion as fact and also could make people who do like this movie (every movie has fans and critics) feel unwelcome. I also wanted to state this was in the introduction of the page. That section is for summary and I believe should at least be cautious if it's going to include cited opinions, only do so if truly necessary and relevant, and should state them clearly as opinions.
Opinions can be listed as opinions on Wikipedia, but I think the source of the opinion has to be stated. Only one piece of this, the "rational understanding" part, is in quotes, with a source not explained in text (footnote only).
What does everyone think? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.69.13.139 ( talk) 22:51, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
Incipient NPOV dispute at Talk:Mortara case#One source issues. What exactly constitutes a fact vs. an opinion, and if it is the latter, should it be attributed to the scholarly authors? Is the fact even credible based on the chain of attribution and my personal incredulity? Elizium23 ( talk) 01:14, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
I'm seeing a pattern of (I believe) POV-pushing at Habesha peoples. I think this has gone on for at least a year or two, but I'm only noticing after more closely watching the history of the article for the past month or so. I've previously raised my concerns at Talk:Habesha peoples. There appears to be an effort to document how the term "Habesha" has grown more inclusive of Ethiopians and Eritreans in general, rather than its older, more exclusive meaning of (for example) Amharic-, Tigrinya- and Agaw-speaking peoples. I'm not objecting to nor disputing that, per se. The problem is that HoAHabesha and (to a lesser extent) Llakew18 are doing so by adding content that suits their effort, while citing sources that don't actually (or at best, partially) back up their content. For example, the same content was added three times, each time citing a different source(s) when I raised an issue with the previous citation(s):
More recently, Llakew18 added content along with a citation of a new source, 02:06, 16 April 2020, but the citation didn't corroborate the text. (Although, it did corroborate something that HoAHabesha had tried to add earlier, and as it was otherwise a useful reference, I left it in place after clarifying the context.)
In one case, a citation was constructed to appear as though it appeared in an academic journal.
The appearance in the academic journal is highly doubtful at best, and I had previously raised my concerns about it (along with the content citing it) at Talk:Habesha peoples/Archives/2020/June#Synthesis, POV. From there, I summoned Doug Weller who had previously interacted with HoAHabesha concerning this same article. But that was before I saw this overlap between HoAHabesha, Hoaeter/Hoaeter1, and 192.5.215.225, which I only noticed in the course of writing up this report. (I had already suspected that HoAHabesha had edited from 192.5.215.225; see also Talk:Habesha peoples/Archives/2020/May#Source redux.)
I'm aware of varying definitions of "Habesha", though also in the context of people who don't consider themselves to be included -- in the newer context of the article, they might be considered nationalists, hence another aspect of the POV issue.
Over the course of writing this report I see that this is deeper and has gone on longer than I'd initially noticed. At this point I am not sure whether this report belongs here, or WP:NORN (where I had brought this earlier), or WP:SPI, or WP:LTA — or all the above. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 01:24, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
: Hey, here is the main issue, because this "Habesha" identity is fluid and an ever changing concept from one context to another and between individual sub-groups and in some cases shows similarities to a sub-culture. Academia has barley not cought up with the different uses. All I know is that either you have to be in the culture, or have to rely on non-traditional sources to give this pan-ethnic group justice in how it is described. What I've seen from my time editing Wikipedia and how I've seen the various re-occurring editors edit (just look at the talk page from past months and years in the Archive), I can easily tell if the editor is relying on various authentic sources that show different perspectives of identity or if the editor is using a outdated sources filled with pejorative terms, that don't take into consideration how the word is used within the culture, nor how the current generation self-identifies with it. So what I would say is that in order to get this issue over with, we editors need to make a consensus to lax the rules on the use of non-academic journal sources, show all the sides of this, let the reader make their own conclusions of what all of these various meanings mean, and give this cultural group's article some justice. I've see how pages about movies and tv shows have lax rules on sources (that they don't have to use academic journals), lets just make an exception to people groups that don't have as much information about them in academic journals. And lets just move on with this.
Llakew18 (
talk) 02:57, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
How Am I A SocPuppet ?
I literally see multiple re-occurring editors that state similar points with each other all over pages that I have edited. I even sometimes click on the contributions link and put in the editors' user names or IP addresses to look for other similar pages that the editors have edited that I am interested in to edit. I do this all the time looking for things I want to edit. Along the way, I see multiple re-occurring editors that each time, I notice the same admins, the same admins I even recognize you
User talk:Gyrofrog a lot over here to as well. When I see a sentence made by another editor that sounds weird, I rearrange or paraphrase it so it can sound better, that might also be why you think that I might have been a Sockpuppet. I like to edit certain topics that I know about and I click on the previous contributions of other editors to find other pages that are interesting to edit, so can you just remove this SocPuppet accusation, and can I just get back to editing without this looming over my head?
Llakew18 (
talk) 03:11, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Doug Weller: Now that I've looked further back in the article's edit history, I now believe this goes back to 2017, when there was an actual user named Habesha Union, not just the name of the blog that was being cited here. I've re-opened Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Hoaeter. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 10:49, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
I am having a NPOV dispute with User:Horse Eye Jack about linking articles in see also section ( User talk:Pahlevun#WP:coatrack/ Talk:Hostage diplomacy#NPOV). Horse Eye Jack wants to add Hostage diplomacy as a link in see also section of almost every article about people arrested in Iran, while I think see also sections are being used as a "hook" to "hang" irrelevant, undue or biased material there, and a way to evade providing reliable sources in the body that do mention that certain person as part of a hostage diplomacy campaign. I believe this addition pushes a certain POV (suggesting the person accused with crimes is innocent). Any thoughts? Pahlevun ( talk) 21:11, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
There is an ongoing discussion over the lead section of the article on Ufology here: Talk:Ufology#Lead_Section Few editors are participating and some additional reviews would be appreciated to ensure the lead of this WP:FRINGE topic represents it accurately and with an appropriate NPOV. Thanks -- {{u| Gtoffoletto}} talk 13:35, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
There has been continued discussion and failure to reach consensus on whether Taiwan should be called a "country" or "state" on the Taiwan article: Talk:Taiwan#Taiwan...is_a_country? I've opened an RfC to come to consensus. User:Stephen Balaban - 09:58, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
Dear colleagues, edit warring and other nonsense has erupted at the Joe Biden article. The matter of contention relates to various recent allegations of inappropriate social and sexual conduct. Any fresh eyes on that article would be helpful. SPECIFICO talk 14:55, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
Pulitzer Prize are a renowned international award. As per wikipedia policy, this article not in the wikipedia. Beacuse the sources are not strong about this controversy, some political leaders comment in the news only. There is WP:NPOV#Impartial_tone, WP:NPOV#Bias_in_sources, WP:NPOV#Balancing_different_views issues. Jubair Sayeed Linas ( talk) 03:56, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
Non-admin close - "There's a legitimate content issue here worthy of attention." No, content issues are handled on the article talk page or other places; this is the place for viewpoint issues. -- Calton | Talk 06:58, 7 May 2020 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
At Democratic Socialists of America, there has been a prolonged dispute over a single sentence regarding an incident at a convention documented in multiple reliable sources. This began with a discussion of over-reliance on primary sources throughout the article and insufficient use of secondary sources, especially those with critical content. In a section on the group's views on Israel, the article previously noted that, following the passage of a resolution by the organization endorsing the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions movement against Israel, a number of attendees broke into a chant, "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be free." The chant was recorded in a video posted to social media. Two news organizations picked up on this and reported the story: The Times of Israel and The Daily Beast. The Times of Israel is a highly circulated Israeli newspaper staffed by generally prominent journalists and has been responsible for high-quality investigative reporting. The Daily Beast is recognized at WP:RSP as reliable. With these two sources, the content clearly meets WP:DUE. The Daily Beast also offered background on why this particular chant is controversial: it is interpreted by some as calling for the end of Israel. The Times of Israel also noted an alternative interpretation, that it simply calls for the end of the occupation. Both of these were noted in the prior version of the article. This content was removed by @
Objective3000:, based on the argument that it is an NPOV violation, essentially because this editor believes the journalist to be incorrect. Editor casts doubt on the reporting, saying This amounts to an NPOV content dispute on its face, but I believe that the arguments above reflect a lack of adherence to NPOV by the editors removing the material, not the opinions expressed in reliable sources. A core tenet of WP:NPOV is that reliable sources are allowed to have opinions, but editors are not. The reasoning accompanying repeated removal of this text gets this backwards, IMO, and I'm seeking community input on this disagreement. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 01:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
No one has disputed that the language matter-of-factly addressed the information in the underlying sources and that both sources are reliable. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 04:03, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
I agree with O3000 that inclusion of the claim about the chant is undue. It is not surprising that a small number of pro-Israeli journalists tried to read a far-fetched interpretation into chanting by some people at a DSA meeting. The real issue that the Israeli government and its supporters are concerned about is support for the Boycott, Divertiture, and Sanctions (BDS) movement, and they consistently promote the false allegation that supporters of BDS are anti-semitic and opposed to the existence of Israel. Claims of that sort are extraordinary, and should not be included in articles unless reported by unbiased mainstream journalists. NightHeron ( talk) 13:23, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
A quote from your post: The real issue that the Israeli government and its supporters are concerned about is support for the Boycott, Divertiture, and Sanctions (BDS) movement, and they consistently promote the false allegation that supporters of BDS are anti-semitic and opposed to the existence of Israel.This is what you posted to an NPOV noticeboard -- an ideological screed/diversion with no references to sources, policy, or the relevant content of the article. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 18:02, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Objective3000 Do not make a bad-faith accusation of straw men again. For someone who repeatedly claims FOC, you show no interest in following that policy.
Rules for thee but not for me. NightHeron, this is not an appropriate forum to debate BDS, DSA, or any aspect of the political issue you just described. This is precisely the problem. The characterization of the slogan as controversial is documented in numerous reliable and mainstream sources. This is just one side of the dispute, of course. Are there differing interpretations? Yes. Both were covered in the article. It's not our job to assert one as correct and the other as incorrect.
Wikieditor19920 (
talk) 18:28, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
Again, the hypocrisy is astonishing. Engage with other editors as you want to be treated. Do not make repeated accusations of strawmen or other personal criticisms.
Comment Objective3000 is clearly continuing to make arguments in the same vein at the talk page, and I will not continue responding because the exchange obviously goes nowhere. Editor is now making slight nods to policy but this is disingenuous. The dispute seems to center on the interpretation of the slogan "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free." Editors assert that these two reliable sources are wrong for noting the controversial history of this statement (Because the Daily Beast , or suggesting that they alone view the slogan as controversial. Apparently the sources are "Israeli" means they are biased and or untrustworthy. However, the phrase has a history of controversy that goes well beyond these two sources, which merely summarized the history. Editors are simply arguing that interpretations of the phrase as offensive are wrong. This is classic NPOV-violating behavior: engaging in a substantive dispute rather than adhering to what sources say. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 17:59, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
I struck the comment and am perfectly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Nonetheless, this is a wholesale diversion from the central issue. Multiple reliable sources have reported on this matter. Your belief that these sources are wrong and vague accusations of bias is not an appropriate reason for removal. Again, NPOV requires we describe disputes, not engage in them. There is a dispute over the meaning of the slogan, and some sources note that it has a negative connotation. This is allowed when it adheres to a reliable sources. You cannot remove reference to this viewpoint because you disagree with it.
Wikieditor19920 (
talk) 19:57, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
|
Dealing with an editor who is trying to gloss over Ross Ulbricht, the creator of darknet market Silk Road. WHS Dad (and to a lesser extent at this time NeutralInfo) has taken it upon themselves to describe Ross in the first line of the article as an 'entrepreneur.'
Ulbricht is a libertarian who tried to characterize Silk Road, which was mostly used for selling illegal drugs, as a social experiment of a market with no regulations, and WHS is parroting this line. Their rationale, posted on the talk page as well as edit descriptions, is that describing him in a way that acknowledges he's best known for illegal activity (the previous description of Ulbricht was as a 'convict,' possibly done by someone who just didn't want to call him a drug trafficker) constitutes an unfair lean towards "Government Point Of View." Instead, WHS is treating him like a legitimate businessman.
Left a reply to WHS' rationale on the talk page. Given their last edit consisted of parroting the talking points of Ulbricht's family/advocates' website, I don't think they'll listen. -- Lenin and McCarthy | ( Complain here) 22:12, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
In March and April 2020, The Federalist (website) wrote articles denouncing coronovirus social distancing measures as an attempt to intentionally destroy the U.S. economy for political reasons, and temporarily had their twitter account suspended for promoting fringe ideas about coronovirus that contradicted public health experts. There is some content to this effect under the subsection heading "Coronavirus pandemic misinformation". In order to satisfy concerns that the heading violates NPOV, does the word "Alleged" need to be added to the subsection heading, i.e., "Alleged Coronavirus pandemic misinformation"? AzureCitizen ( talk) 17:31, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
Lack of Neutrality Alert regarding live person - /info/en/?search=Alan_Sears
I made changes to a page and an administrator Doug_Weller removed it - and told me to go to NPOV page, so I'm here.
Here is the diff page: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Alan_Sears&diff=prev&oldid=933843714
The information that I object to:
[The book was described by the Southern Poverty Law Center as "an anti-LGBT call to arms that links homosexuality to pedophilia and other 'disordered sexual behavior.'"[8]]
in context is contentious regarding the author of the book briefly mentioned, Alan Sears, especially when the quotation is merely an opinion. Putting a negative statement about a live person, without providing a balance on the other side or any contrary viewpoint is not permissible. We need to be more cautious about posting regarding live persons.
The reliable sources says about using SPLC "Take care to ensure that content from the SPLC constitutes due weight in the article and conforms to the biographies of living persons policy." The BLP requires a neutral point of view (NPOV) - /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons I submit that the statement about Alan Sears is not from a neutral point of view, as it does not present any information about the book other than that one quote. NPOV requires "representing fairly, proportionately... all the significant views ... on a topic." Also: "A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject)...." The choice of words in the post about Alan Sears's book is one-sided and is not neutral.
-- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 20:13, 6 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- It seems we could at least label SPLC left-leaning, liberal or at least the most neutral term, "activist." The paragraph about the book tells readers nothing about the book other than what an activist group thinks. I thought Wikipedia was to inform not to sway. And, we're getting into the "hate group" debate, which is not what Wikipedia is for, so i would strike that "SPLC is biased against hate groups" -- which is circular anyway, as they define "hate groups." -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 15:27, 7 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- I understand. I easily found a reliable source, The Hill, which states "The Southern Poverty Law Center, an activist group tracking hate groups in the U.S...." -- so we should be able to add that label before SPLC, as "activist" is used to describe organizations that are on various sides of issue advocacy and action. It has no negative connotation, but would help clarify that the SPLC is a private organization and not as some may think, merely a law firm or an agency. -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 16:10, 7 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
-- Activism -- I see no negative connotation here and we could add this Wikipedia link to explain. BTW, I put The Hill link that I was missing, above. Even in that context there is nothing negative behind the word in the article.
I'd like to add that and move on to other articles. :) -- Ihaveadreamagain ( talk) 15:28, 11 May 2020 (UTC)Ihaveadreamagain
The article already has both conspiratorial and non-conspiratorial theories of the Deep State in the United States complete with accepted, consensus RS. Editors are POV pushing that only material that supports conspiratorial theories should be on the page and are resisting the elaboration of non-conspiratorial variants that are already accepted in the text. RFC tried and failed to resolve the issue. TMLutas ( talk) 19:02, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
The NPOV notice has been improperly removed. I let that go a few weeks ago for a different NPOV request and instead went to a fruitless, RfC process that resolved nothing. I request sanctions proper to the situation at Deep State in the United States. TMLutas ( talk) 19:57, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Could editors please take a look at the East StratCom Task Force article, particularly with regard to the Criticism section? It appears that an SPA has reverted their material (or parts thereof) back into the article several times now. In the longer term, some watchers would probably also be helpful. Sunrise ( talk) 17:59, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
There is a pov pushing attempt trying to take sourced content of that article related with religion and other spiritual beliefs. A WP:POVFORK was created [11] with that purpose and despite that there was consensus in the talk page that the relevant content should be in the original article, there is an attempt [12] to delete both the content moved from the fork and the tags noting the problem under the rationale that the article was "stable form for well over a year now". Rupert Loup ( talk) 21:01, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
An image of Sigmund Freud is included in both these articles. In one the caption is "Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis", in the other it additionally says "Bieber and his colleagues discuss Freud's views".
Freud, a Victorian, apparently believed that homosexuality was aberrant. I think most of us will be aware that Freud had many idiosyncratic opinions on sex that were bound up in the fashion for psychoanalysis, but are not nowe considered scientific. The question is whether including a photograph of a distinguished-looking Freud as "the founder of psychoanalysis" lends undue weight to his outdated views on homosexuality in the context of authors writing in the 1960s.
The argument is that a (captioned) photograph of Freud does not imply any conferral of legitimacy. I dispute this. Freud is dramatically more famous than any of the article subjects or the other sources and influences discussed, and the lay reader probably doesn't know that psychoanalysis is disputed and several of Freud's ideas are no longer accepted: he has the status of quite probably the best-known figure in the entire history of mental health in terms of name recognition. I see this as asymmetric and likely to imply a degree of support that is absent from the actual subject matter of these books, which promote conversion therapy (a pseudoscience whose promotion is actually illegal in several jurisdictions due to the harms it inflicts). It is hard to see how a lay reader will fail to infer from the link to Freud that the idea of homosexuality as aberrant is a part of mainstream psychological practice, rather than what it is, an idiosyncratic and outmoded personal opinion on the part of an influential but scientifically controversial figure. Guy ( help!) 21:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
There is a dispute over the neutrality of the page Toxic_masculinity, over whether or not to include a particular phrase in the heading. One user is arguing that we should include the phrase "The use of the term has come under scrutiny for the implied meaning that gender-related issues are caused by inherent male traits, an idea that has been criticized by Michael Salter, a professor of Criminology at the University of New South Wales" (with a citation to the article written by said professor), as seen here. Another editor is arguing that this phrase - and any mention of the use of term being disputed - should be entirely excluded from the heading. Discussion on the topic failed, and the page is now protected until the dispute is resolved. EditSafe ( talk) 02:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, 1) whose work in the relevant field 2) has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.The "Toxic masculinity" concept is almost certainly within the broader field of sociology, and this professor has published and been cited in relevant works in that field. If Newt Gingrich or anyone else meets the criteria for SELFPUB, they can be considered an expert. Are you trying to exclude this material because you don't like this person's opinion or because you don't think the elements of WP:SELFPUB are met? Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 21:34, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
The lead is a summery of the article, thus it should only be there if there is a significant material (in OUR article) about this criticism. If there is we do not need quotes or extensive commentary in the lead, that should go in the body. Slatersteven ( talk) 11:17, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
I said it's appropriate to include it in the body but maybe not the lead. Wikieditor19920 ( talk) 19:01, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
I see a Time and a Vice piece cited in this article. Let's not be so high and mighty.If you actually read and understood the article, you'd know that the Time essay by another recognized scholar is used for a basic, factual statement about how the concept is used in psychology. The Vice article is a third-party reference supporting a statement by John Stoltenberg. We already have a source for that from NYU press, so I think the Vice reference could be simply cut. Once again, Where do you see any similar sources being cited for the authors' opinions (or "criticism", as phrased here)?
'Toxic masculinity' is a popularized term that some academics have given weight to with peer reviewed articles offering different interpretations." Meme" is another term from academia that was "popularized" online. That doesn't mean we suddenly favor popular sources over academic ones. Raewyn Connell wrote about "toxic" masculine behaviors in a 2005 academic journal article, well before the current popular usage. And of course Michael Kimmel documented its original usage in an academic work from 1995. In any case, academic sources are generally the most reliable.
This is not neuroscience. Michael Salter is a published academic who has written on issues of gender, masculinity, and gender violence.You're evading the question. Where do you see him listed as a professor of sociology as you claimed? — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:24, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
On the contrary, this may be more a question of how much you're willing to stretch the meaning of policies and guidelines to include criticism of a topic you dislike.
Uncalled for. You are repeatedly misconstruing policy and the issues (the "dueling op-eds" is a clever example, and totally misrepresents what we're discussing) to exclude an opinion for unclear reasons. We've established that Salter has published pieces in reliable, independent, academic sources on masculinity/gender/gender violence. This is enough to make him a subject-matter expert for this article, and his commentary seems relevant. Relentlessly and endlessly arguing against inclusion of opinions
you don't like is disruptive an non-compliant with NPOV. EditSafe was right to bring this up here, and I see the issue. I'm not changing my stance on this, and I believe inclusion is clearly permitted. For factual issues like the history of the term toxic masculinity, I would view a secondary source as better. For stances that are strictly his opinion, with in-text attribution, finding an independent source is less of a concern. This is a sensible application of policy, not a stretch.
Wikieditor19920 (
talk) 02:44, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
I think that's a separate issue, and a question of how much you want to make the article about Donald Trump.Uncalled-for indeed.
You are repeatedly misconstruing policy and the issues...to exclude an opinion for unclear reasons.I quoted the very same policy as you ( WP:SELFPUB) to show that independent sources are better according to the policy. Your argument that actually, we don't need an independent source because it's just Salter's opinion (if anything, that would call for more caution, not less) is not based on any policy I'm aware of. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 02:57, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
That's more of a WEIGHT issue, than a reliability one.That's the point I've been making: that Salter's opinion, based on an essay from a general-interest news website, is unduly weighted in the article, and that back-and-forth commentary from similar sources would result in a bad article structure that wouldn't add to a meaningful understanding of the topic (which was my point in referring to "dueling op-eds"). Our goal should be to reflect the predominant views of the most reliable sources, not a
diverse array of opinions; that's the same error EditSafe made with their "differing views" comment.My own
common-sense readingof the policy says we should stick to "independent sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy [with] a professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments", which generally means avoiding mass-media commentary unless otherwise mentioned in more reliable sources. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 03:59, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
reliable publication, full stop?
I think that policy allows these types of sources to be used– that isn't the locus of this dispute. Nevertheless, I'm fine with using the source for uncontroversial, factual statements. It only leads to an unencyclopedic structure and undue weight when we start using it as a primary source for the author's opinion. Where does NPOV say anything about
diversityof views? — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 22:26, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
reliable enough, you could try addressing the substance of these concerns. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 22:42, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
To repeat, we should stick to secondary sources, and scholarly ones where possible...None of the other popular-media references in the article are used as primary sources for someone's opinion...It only leads to an unencyclopedic structure and undue weight when we start using [the Atlantic piece] as a primary source for the author's opinion.
These concerns are all based on NPOV policy. Where did you or the other contributors "address" these concerns, and where did you cite
policies and/or guidelines? —
Sangdeboeuf (
talk) 13:16, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is section header of discussion.The discussion is about the topic Arbitrarily0. Thank you. -- Linn C Doyle ( talk) 15:03, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is
section header of discussion.The discussion is about the topic
Sword_of_the_Spirit. Thank you. --
Linn C Doyle (
talk) 15:05, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Hello I am currently having what I believe to be a NPOV dispute with user Arbitrarily0 regarding recent edit to page Sword of the Spirit.
The edit made is here.
Page creator has been continuously reverting edits claiming that edit is original research (which has been disputed) and is not relevant (which has been disputed) and is not eloquent enough (which has been disputed). The original reversion is here.
Notably the page creator has also removed a section of the page created by their selves here to which my edit specifically pertains.
User has since taken a third opinion and had me banned from editing for 2 weeks for replacing the edit with comment on talk pages.
I am concerned there is a conflict of interest here, perhaps corporate vanity, and that the user is deliberately misrepresenting my edits (strategic removal of own content, repeated claim of original research where multiple mainstream news sources are cited, unverifiable content by page creator etc.).
The discussion is found here.
I believe my edit is well sourced and contains significant information regarding a significant aspect of the organisation Sword of the Spirit and Servants of the Word history and should be included. I believe if there is an issue with the eloquence or sources then a 'cleanup' should be done rather than categorical removal.
I am concerned that the repeated stonewall deletion of edits, misrepresentation and strategic removal of own content represents a Non-Neutral Viewpoint here and I am seeking an Admin to investigate and help resolve.
This is indeed my first edit. I noticed the page contained unverifiable information and that I had verifiable sources containing further information on the Page Topic that was not included. I do fully intend to add further information on the Sword of the Spirit, Servants of the Word and Word of God Community which I would love to contribute also so I would assert that this is not a single purpose account.
Apologies if reposting edits is a faux pas here. I had assumed that user deleting these articles was perhaps doing so out of Non Neutral Point of View. If a ban is n order for this then that is not contested. I do believe my edit was relevant, verifiable and informative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Linn C Doyle ( talk • contribs) 15:32, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Hello all! Would just like some assistance with the Macuto Bay raid, another controversial Venezuelan article. We seem to have the same group of users working on the page and disputes are getting more nasty (legal threats, etc.), so it would be a good idea to have more pairs of eyes monitoring the article in order to keep it as NPOV and lawful as possible. Thank you.---- ZiaLater ( talk) 15:03, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
A thread in the AN/I has been started and can be consulted as reference. -- Jamez42 ( talk) 15:39, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
There are two separate RfCs at Rupert Sheldrake. The first asks if we should change the opening sentence of the lede to something more readable that preserves the essence of the existing content. The second centers around the question of reducing repetition in the remainder of the lede. Your input is appreciated! HappyWanderer15 ( talk) 01:28, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
There are all kinds of authoritarian systems that run elections that are not free and fair, in part for regimes to appear to be democratic legitimate when they are not. Wikipedia appears to have a problem in terms of lending legitimacy to these elections by failing to clearly describe them as non-democratic. A typical page for an authoritarian election simply says that "X accused it of being non-democratic. Y defended the election." There is an enormous academic literature out there that lists and covers elections run by authoritarians. This literature should be used to clearly label these faux elections as non-democratic. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 14:26, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Hello everyone, I have attempted to start a discussion in the talk page of the article and no responses have been given (ignored). I have marked the article with a POV template and have posted a RFC a while ago and still no change. I'll explain the issues: 1) the article is clearly a POV fork due to the fact that it seems to try to only give negative view points and used biased sources, and the article gets away from the main Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints article. 2) the title itself violated the policy of POV titles 3) there are "beliefs" that are written about that were never officially adopted, and were later repudiated (the people who suggested these beliefs in the church were speaking of opinion and it never represented the views of the mentioned church). 4) critics are used and directly quoted using extremely argumentative and controversial quotes (ie. "the critic so and so said 'this church stinks'" etc.) without there being any evidence provided, and really just being an opinion.
I am open to any feedback/criticisms of my actions so long as alternative actions and evidence/explanations are given. Thank you for your time, PeanutHat ( talk) 08:30, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
I could use some help with this article (and there are related once for other performers) - EdJohnston has the same problem I think. Superfan editors keep reinserting vast swathes of non-notable "awards" that have no reliable independent secondary sources - mainly PR stunts designed to promote the company making the "award". The absolute bare minimum we require to include a disputed award would be a reliable independent secondary source that discusses it. There's virtually no engagement on Talk, and most of them have no edits outside their narrow area of fandom. Their perspective is that removing non-notable awards is " ruining the page". Given that some of the disruption started right about the time Beyhiveboys started kvetching about his partial block, I suspect off-wiki solicitation. It could really do with ECP for a while to get them to engage. Guy ( help!) 09:40, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
On Richard Dawkins there seems to be a tendency to marginalise some of his controversial comments by placing them in a seperate article Political views of Richard Dawkins. There are comments that have been cherry picked for the main article and the controversial comments have been left in the Political views article. An example is the line:
Dawkins identifies as a feminist. He has said that feminism is "enormously important" and "a political movement that deserves to be supported".
However many of his comments have lead to widespread condemnation by feminist groups such as his comments about Rebecca Watson and his comments about rape. These are not even mentioned in the main article despite the high profile nature of his comments and the significant controversy they caused. -- Permareperwiki1664 ( talk) 12:57, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Could do with a few more eyes. Slatersteven ( talk) 12:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Many readers here are likely aware of the numerous hot topics surrounding the financial and far-right political activities of the new religious movement Falun Gong, particularly among its extensions, including Falun Gong media branch The Epoch Times, performance art branch Shen Yun, and other, lesser known arms, such as the Society of Classical Poets. These topics have received increased media attention since 2016.
What may surprise readers is that English Wikipedia's Falun Gong article somehow mentions absolutely none of this. Given how high-profile these topics have become within the past few years and the account activity occurring around it and related articles, this really needs more eyes.
I've highlighted several recent media sources discussing these topics at this thread. I think this particular discussion would benefit a lot from editors from this board. :bloodofox: ( talk) 21:00, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
I believe we have a neutrality issue in Poland. I wanted to include the following paragraph in Poland#Government and politics (I inserted something similar to Hungary#Government and politics with no resistance), but was reverted twice: [17] [18]
According to Freedom House's Nations in Transit 2020 report, "the quality of democratic governance in Poland continued to deteriorate in 2019, marking [its] fourth consecutive year of decline and its lowest score in [the report]. The most negatively affected areas were the judiciary, local democratic governance, and the pluralism of civil society." [1]
I've opened a discussion at Talk:Poland#Freedom House report. François Robere ( talk) 09:06, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
The Freedom House report did highlight that though the situation deteriorated heavily, democracy is still intactWhere? François Robere ( talk) 13:05, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Some time ago the Polish parliament declared Jesus Christ "King of Poland". A "coronation" was held, which was attended by the Polish President and Prime Minister. This was covered in various outlets, both in Poland and abroad. [33] [34] [35] [36] Poland is a deeply religious country (see Religion in Poland), and as it turns out this idea of crowning Jesus or Mary has a history going back at least 370 years, to the Lwów Oath.
Seeing as this was endorsed by parliament and attended by senior political figures, it seems to merit a mention in Poland#Religion. I've tried making the change, but it was reverted. [37] Discussion is ongoing at Talk:Poland#Jesus Christ King of Poland?. François Robere ( talk) 14:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
parliaments pass random resolutions just about anything, such as national this or that day, or honorary so and so, etc.François Robere ( talk) 19:03, 29 May 2020 (UTC)
Demchok is a village in the eponymous Demchok sector, which is part of a border dispute between China and India. Multiple reliable sources say that the entire Demchok sector is administered by China and multiple reliable sources say that the entire Demchok sector is administered by India.
The lead of the article on the village of Demchok was changed to say ( diff):
Demchok is a village and military encampment in the Nyoma tehsil in the Leh district of Ladakh, India
Is this neutral? In my understanding, disputed areas should not assert a claim one way or the other, as is done in high-traffic articles on disputed areas like Western Sahara, Spratly Islands, and Senkaku Islands.
The relevant discussion is here. — MarkH21 talk 13:21, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
The Chinese names and perspective are in violation of Wikipedia's global perspective. The common name in every country (but China) is Reishi and the scientific name is Ganoderma lucidum. Article is written like an advertisement of Traditional Chinese Medicine. Thanks.-wikiNoob
I am on mobile so apologies in advance for limitations. Talk:Chick_Webb#Webbs_B-date could use some input. Numerous RS give different years of birth so how best to treat in the lead without POV. - Sitush ( talk) 10:52, 2 June 2020 (UTC)