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I have noticed that a guy named Peter on here has been adding info to the Dead or Alive 5 and Metal Gear Solid 5 articles that claim the game sexualized female characters. The problem is this. They aren't written in a neutral point of view. In fact, he seems to be pushing the view that the content in question is OBJECTIVELY sexist rather than that it was accused by some of being sexist. I don't even know if the added sections can even be considered necessary/ noteworthy, considering that a similar section was on the Bayonetta 2 article and was removed because the info wasn't considered necessary. If it wasn't considered necessary/noteworthy on that article or others, it shouldn't be considered necessary/noteworthy here. What do you think?
Two editors have been reverting back and forth at 1) MOS:REGISTER and now 2) MOS:SUPPORTS. Their core purposes are to 1) record consensus on MoS decisions and 2) list external sources that back up Wikipedia's Manual of Style. They both contain brief factual descriptions of the rule in question and its alternatives.
First editor says (approximated), "Because these are not articles, we do not need to follow NPOV. They are not articles or lists."
Second other says (approximated), "Because these pages make claims of fact in Wikipedia's voice, we should follow NPOV. They are not essays or policies."
Policies cited: WP:POVNAME, WP:ASSERT, WP:FALSEBALANCE
Specifics and difs: (NOTE: Not all difs are listed; please review page history and talk pages for complete picture.) The first editor has removed reliable sources that use terminology that he does not like, has replaced common terminology with rare terms [1] [2] [3] that the second editor claims are loaded [4] [5], and has used descriptions that the second editor claims are biased [6] [7]. Second editor has provided sources to support claim that the common terms are indeed the most common. [8] Has also provided sources that may indicate that rare terms are being used inccorectly [9] [10]. Both editors accuse the other of framing the issue improperly. Both editors accuse the other of inserting arguments instead of neutral descriptions (and claim that they are using neutral descriptions) [11]. Both editors have a long history of participation in the many disputes over the MoS rule in question.
Both editors have made some effort to compromise; each has given way in the other's favor to some extent, so it is likely that a resolution may be found, but emotions are becoming heated. Please comment.
Talk page threads: Support, Register
Editors involved: alerted by poster. 14:34, 8 January 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkfrog24 ( talk • contribs)
I may be missing the whole point here, but would one possibility be to use neither the term "British" nor "American" and refer to the styles as Logical Style and Aesthetic Style? I realize that each term is "loaded" in its own way, but that would cancel and be neutral in an overall way. Or am I way off base to begin with? In any case, I just wanted to throw my two cents in.
Richard27182 (
talk) 10:49, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
We definitely should not be calling LQ "British". It's just a patent falsehood. There are multiple British quotation styles, with conflicting rules and rationales, and none of them equate to logical quotation, as at least one British publisher has pointedly told us. It doesn't matter whether Darkfrog24 doesn't like the name "logical quotation". It's the reliably sourced name of that quotation style. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:09, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
PS: It's quite possible that the term "typesetters' quotation" is used to mean different things. That's fine. Innumerable words and phrases in English mean multiple things, depending on context. But AtariMagazines.com is not a reliable source for linguistics jargon. Your second source doesn't say what you claim it does (as usual); it says "curly typesetter's [sic] quotation", clearly distinguishing the meaning. Your third link goes to an index entry demonstrating that the term exists, but the page in question is not available (the terms the Williams book actually uses – not that it's a linguistics or typography volume, either – is "real apostrophes and quotation marks" vs. "typewriter apostrophes and quotation marks" on p. 451, which goes on to lambaste the typewriter style as "stupid"; this isn't a reliable secondary source for anything on this topic but a primary one, of opinion). So, you've demonstrated nothing at all other than how to not properly back up a claim (ironic, given the nature of your "source the MoS" activism). If you do actual research on this, you find that the curly glyphs are commonly referred to as "typesetters' quotation marks [and apostrophe]" (commonly distinguished from "typewriter-style quotation marks" or "straight quotation marks"), while the quotation style is referred to as "typesetters' quotation", "typesetters' punctuation", or "typesetters' quotation style" (and, yes, often but incorrectly "American"). These are clearly distinct phrases. Ultimately, it doesn't matter because these are internal documentation pages and we can use whatever wording we have consensus to use, and we're competent enough to use them clearly. The only likely room for confusion is if we referred to both of these as "typesetters' quotes", since "quote" in informal, vernacular usage can refer to a quotation mark or a quotation (and really should refer to neither; it's a verb, not a noun). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:29, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Meanwhile, a best-selling grammar and punctuation writer (and an American one at that), Mignon "Grammar Girl" Fogarty, calls these styles "logical quotation" and "typesetters' quotation" [15], following many previous sources. So much for your claim (as usual) that there are no sources against your view. It took about 15 seconds to dig this up, while I was making coffee. Please see WP:LMGTFY, an also stop abusing Google as a cherry-picking method. Do you really think we're all so incompetent at search engine usage that we can't find information contradicting you, in mere moments, using the same tools but using them properly?
Fogarty even clearly explains one of the reasons people confuse LQ and BQ: LQ was championed notably by H.W. Fowler, who was British. But that's a meaningless demographic; everyone is from somewhere, and it doesn't mean that their motivation for everything they say is nationalistic (I'm not sure that can be said about everyone in this debate on WP, however). Modern sources like the US-based (but not US-limited) Council of Science Editors, and the Linguistic Society of America (which uses single-then-double order, BTW), are clearly not British. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:46, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
WP:CORE doesn't apply to anything but the encyclopedia's content. It certainly does not apply to WP:POLICY material, including guidelines. This general idea of applying the core content policies to such pages comes up very frequently at WP:MFD, and the answer is always the same: Internal projectpages are not subject to WP:V / WP:RS, WP:CORE, or WP:MPOV. The entire notion is ridiculous. There is no external source for internal consensus, and never could be. It's logically impossible for third-party material to better determine how WP must be written, for its purposes, limitations, scope, and audience, than WP itself. It's like supposing that Apple and Sun Microsystems can dictate to Microsoft how it will write its own employee policies.
All WP policies and guidelines (aside from the handful imposed on WP by WMF for legal reasons) are determined, always and entirely, by editorial consensus. That consensus is formed largely on the talk pages of the pages in question, and various sources are discussed in the process, but every second spent trying to forcibly source the MoS (or any other policypage) itself is a quixotic waste of time. There is no source for a consensus here other than the consensus discussions that lead to and bolstered it. "MOS:SUPPORTS" is an unencyclopedic, debate-manufacturing activity that will serve no end but fomenting additional and continual conflict over largely arbitrary nit-picks (and more inimically, by potentially confusing other editors into believing that non-arbitrary style consensuses enacted for real reasons are arbitrary and can be dropped at whim if only the stalwart standout yells long and loud enough). This kind of nonsense is strongly symptomatic of what drives editors away from MOS and inspires people to declare all style matters to be WP:LAME. It's completely unjustifiable to devote an entire little wikiproject-in-all-but-name (especially a redundant one) to picking apart whether an internal consensus document complies with hand-selected external punditry, on a grand total of three (out of many hundreds of potential) style matters that the page's authors have an issue with.
The supposed rationale that MoS states facts about the real world so it has to be sourced is faulty several times over. Probably most of our policies and guidelines do so, but there is no requirement to source them. Aside from that, the main impetus for adding factual claims into MoS (there are very few of them, and they can all be deleted) appears to be the same editor now suggesting that this is a rationale to 'source the MoS". I.e., it's a Trojan Horse. The same editor has editwarred for years to keep inserting in MoS and related pages the claim that logical quotation, for example, is "British" (because some American style guides don't bother to distinguish them, and this aids said editor in trying to extend MOS:ENGVAR to everything conceivable instead of to what's appropriate for it). This is precisely the kind of factual claim the editor is complaining about as "unsourced in MoS" (in actual fact, it's already disproven OR; a simple examination of various British styles guides defining British quotation styles, and sources defining logical quotation, yields different styles that are easily and consistently distinguishable. Q.E.D.).
All of this energy should instead be spent on sourcing actual articles. Most of our English grammar and style articles are poor to middling quality at best (I think only a single one of them is an FA). The primary ((em|effective}} purpose of MOS:REGISTER, then MOS:FAQ, and now this new MOS:SUPPORTS time suck and manifesto factory, is enabling one or two editors to use them as wedges to drive into the consensus-formation process, to try to goad into a specific direction the current and future opinion and debate about MOS's wording, by cherry-picking what they want to appear there, and casting a cloud of FUD over the legitimacy of various guideline points that these editors have a pet peeve about, especially getting rid of logical quotation by falsely equating it with British and trying to make it out to be "anti-American". This PoV-pushing exercise is especially ironic, given that it's being predicated on the idea that WP:NPOV should or even could apply to MoS in the first place. I was going to MfD the page this weekend, but I guess it can wait until the current discussion closes. In the interim, I'm moving MOS:SUPPORTS to be a subpage of the MoS wikiproject. It certainly is not a sub-guideline of MoS, and wikiprojects are where topical essays get filed. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:09, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Richard27182: I've thought about it and here's my guess as to your process. Do you think that "logical" and "aesthetic" cancel each other out because you think they're loaded in the same way? Unfortunately, that's not the case. In practice, "logical" has a positive connotation and "aesthetic" has a negative one, as in "the only good thing about this system is that it's pretty" (when it actually has many practical virtues). Even if recognizability weren't an issue, even if actively concealing the British/American notation weren't a problem—and I think those things are both more important—we'd still be hard pressed to find a word for American style that is loaded in the same way as "logical" is for British.
SmC, we're talking about MOS:REGISTER and MOS:SUPPORTS right now. The issue of whether the MoS itself is subject to NPOV should be dealt with in its own thread. Neither of these pages are essays and both make claims of fact in Wikipedia's voice. Here's a thought: If there really are lots of sources that agree with you, then go ahead and bring them up on the talk page. Then NPOV would work in your favor. So here's a question: Why wouldn't we present any facts asserted on these pages in a neutral manner? What justification is there for doing otherwise? Darkfrog24 ( talk) 18:17, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
As to your question, I'm not at liberty to publicly theorize why you use this page and several others to non-neutrally present alleged facts. Your or anyone else's justifications are irrelevant to the issue here. WP-internal documentation is not subject to WP:CORE, because those are core content policies, and the pages are not encyclopedia content. That's all there is to it. Since we've already been over this dozens of times, I'll only re-state this for people new to the discussion: A large number of conclusions reached by consensus in WP policies and guidelines are based on nothing whatsoever but WP's own internal judgement about what works best here and what does not. It is not possible to externally source these decisions. Festooning WP:POLICY pages with citations for random factoids that coincidentally can be externally sourced serves no encyclopedic purpose or even project management purpose, but would be nothing but a WP:GAMING and WP:BATTLEGROUNDING staging platform. It would intentionally blur the distinction between encyclopedia content and internal decisionmaking, in a way that implies than any consensus decision, even one with 99.9% buy-in from the community, can be deleted if it doesn't have an external source citation. WP does not work that way. Finally, it is the very purpose of guidelines and policies to be prescriptive and proscriptive, which is by definition non-neutral. Policies and guidelines are codifications of what the WP community expects of itself and those participating in it. They are not here to catalogue and describe the various ways that off-WP entities might approach such questions. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:29, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Greg_Clark_(Urbanist)
This listing is clearly promotional in nature and possibly written by the entrant.
Sources widely note that the mascot of the South of the Border (attraction) is either offensive, racist or could be interpreted as either. User:CombatWombat42 has taken the position that the extent of any mention should be that it's a caricature, no mention of how that caricature is viewed. Does anyone see an NPOV issue in noting that the mascot caricature is aruably or sometimes interpreted as either racist, politically incorrect or some language that is the like. Suggestions welcome.-- Labattblueboy ( talk) 15:50, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Alohascope ( talk) 00:38, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Biblical cosmology portion of Cosmology: Despite serious errors and lack of substantiation in the 'Biblical cosmology' portion of 'Cosmology' the editor 'All The Foxes' insists on reverting to the original text from my much more factual revision DESPITE my revision including the original text to show the reason for the changes. I suspect this is a case of an editor's personal opinion of both Old and New Testaments being false and untrustworthy. I ask for community support based on my inclusion of links in my revision testifying to the factualness of my revision, and the error of the original. Please and thank you.
Original Text: "Biblical cosmology Genesis creation narrative (c. 500 BC) Flat earth floating in infinite "waters of chaos"
My change: "I will leave the original text in 'Biblical Cosmology' unchanged, but changes should be made by an editor. The date or origin for instance of the Genesis creation narrative according to a Wikipedia article should be at least earlier than 1,000 BC, and according to other sources as early as 3,500 BC, not the 500 BC stated in the original text. Also, Babylon was a latecomer in Old Testament history when the Jews were captive there, having taken Moses' scriptures with them, with Jewish men rising to high positions in government, so the Babylonian account is likely based on Jewish scripture. In the Genesis account the "dry land" was not given a description, but appeared from beneath the waters which covered the planet earth, the earth not described as flat and circular, but a person can be led to believe the bible described the earth as circular because a sphere viewed from any angle is circular."
Original text: "Based on Babylonian cosmology. The Earth and the Heavens form a unit within infinite "waters of chaos"; the earth is flat and circular, and a solid dome (the "firmament") keeps out the outer "chaos"-ocean."
Moved by Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum due to same discussion spread over multiple threads on same page at 23:16, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
The bible seems to be held in contempt by at least one editor here, Allthefoxes, who undoes editing which corrects huge errors in a section in Cosmology which deals with biblical cosmolgy.
Allthefoxes casts a darkness upon Wikipedia which renders it unreliable in any topic.
Also, Wikipedia is just too difficult and time consuming to edit, especially with editors like Allthefoxes who is intent on destroying information. 72.253.70.70 ( talk) 22:41, 13 January 2016 (UTC)Alohascope
There is an open RfC on the Campus Sexual Assault page regarding how to deal with an argument from an opinion columnist regarding a sexual assault statistic. The case is explained in more detail on the page, but I'm posting a request for participation here because it deals, in part, with a question about neutrality.
This is a fairly old dispute, and a previous RfC was inconclusive largely due to a lack of participation. If you have time, an outside voice might help us move toward consensus. Nblund ( talk) 23:30, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Other editors have persistently been forced to revert or take action on edits made by them on these topics. In particular, they seem to be toeing the official line, making edits ostensibly defending the actions of the Syrian or Russian governments (under the guise of countering "POV-pushing"), relying on original research and unreliable sources as opposed to citing more reliable sources available. Is it possible to look into or take action on this? (Also, seems like there's some global block evasion? See CentralAuth/ru.wp ArbCom.) Thanks. 108.2.58.56 ( talk) 01:51, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
I visited two related articles, Koshare Indian Dancers and Koshare Indian Museum in the course of doing research on my current topic of interest. I found the content to be drawn from the Koshare Dancer's own website, or from travel websites that copied that content almost verbatim. Many of the links were also dead, since neither article had received much attention since the 2009 Anniversary of the group. Failing to find alternative sources of the material to fix the dead links, and generally finding the content to be unsupported by reliable, unbiased sources, I deleted much of it in preparation for merging both articles into a section in the article Otero Junior College. A merge had previously been discussed and approved in 2009 but not done, for some reason.
I place a NPOV tag on both articles, but this generated no interest, perhaps due to the holidays.
I later found some secondary sources referring to the Koshare Indian Museum and Dancers, all providing the Native American POV. Adding content from these sources drew the attention of Kintetsubuffalo, who instead of engaging in a discussion began by removing my edits, presenting his own interpretations of WP guidelines as rules, and then resorted to making personal insults.
FriendlyFred ( talk) 17:13, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
referencing not only the book itself, but a synopsis of the book on the publisher's website, Yale University Press. This content was reverted three times by Kintetsubuffalo, so I posted to the edit warring noticeboard. That posting has been archived with no action having been taken. I questioned this by posting here. FriendlyFred ( talk) 21:08, 16 January 2016 (UTC)In his book Playing Indian, Native American historian Philip J. Deloria presents his thesis that, from the Boston Tea Party to the present, white people have used their version of "Indianness" to build an American identity while ignoring the conquest and dispossession of the actual original inhabitants of this continent.
A new user ( Dontmakemetypepasswordagain) who is very fluent in Wiki-speak has openly challenged basic facts about the events in Germany and has made having a simple discussion about a NPOV page title extremely difficult. The user also continues to edit the article page selectively to remove views that differ from their own. Talk page discussion statements by the user that "It was a mass sex assault of white women by Arab/North African men" is clearly fringe theory and indicates the user's POV. I suspect that this user, who is strangely fluent in Wiki-speak and uses terms like NOTFORUM with only 100 or so edits, is up to something. Monopoly31121993 ( talk) 17:11, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Sex offender registries in the United States has serious advocacy issues and appears to have been written primarily to provide a soapbox for changes in the law. The editor that started and has been the primary author is an admitted SPA who has made few edits outside this platform. The article needs massive adjustment to conform with NPOV or if that is not possible should be deleted if policy continues to be violated and the article persists in being hopelessly biased.-- MONGO 11:08, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Off-topic. Please comment about content, not contributors.
|
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5 (UTC)
The article needs to remove all the commentary throughout the history. Arguments for/against registries is out of place. that debate happens in legislatures. This article isn't the place to discuss how or if they work or whether they are effective. All that advocacy material needs to go. -- DHeyward ( talk) 23:18, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
I apologize for the late reply here; my current schedule has kept me away from Wikipedia more than I would like this past month. When I signed in today, I found that I had been pinged to this conversation way up above someplace, and feel compelled to comment about this situation. This topic has been of interest to me for some time, but I don't normally do more on this subject beyond minor copy editing. (I did suggest a merge with some other articles but there was no consensus and I closed that discussion -- the removal of the merge-templates were probably my most major edits to the article.) In general, I am interested in subjects related to disproportionate treatment of certain populations within the US, especially within the criminal justice system. This includes, but is not limited to, the treatment of those labeled as "sex offenders" by society.
As
ViperFace started editing this and other related articles, I was concerned that the sources might not have been legit or balanced, but I've found that with only two exceptions, every link I've checked has gone to sources that meet the definition of
WP:RS, and I've been unable to find any counter-examples that are anything other than "opinion pieces" where non-expert commentators basically say that they approve of sex offender registries. On my user page, since well before this discussion started, has been a userbox link to
Okrent's law, which states that the pursuit of balance can create imbalance because sometimes something is true.
(Imagine if the suggestion that an article cannot contain any POV were applied to the article on
The Holocaust.) Seriously, nearly every section of
WP:NPOV supports the work that has been done with this article. The suggestion that ViperFace should be topic-banned is ludicrous; we need more editors who will dedicate themselves to improving the articles here.
Etamni |
✉ |
✓ 08:20, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
We can remove Abel but my removals of advocacy POV pushing stands. We have more trimming to do before this article could possibly be a neutral treatise on the subject. ViperFace has used this article as advocacy platform and that is a policy violation.-- MONGO 16:05, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
A note to anyone in this place who still gives a crap: In response to my changing one word
[27] that
MONGO had previously edited in
[28] which mis-characterized the source material (and providing clear reasoning why it was a mischaracterization), MONGO deleted the whole paragraph with a mocking comment of "good point...its POV"
[29]. When I reverted and asked for reasoning or sources
[30] rather than
a hand wave, he immediately got the help of a friend (
ScrapIronIV) to revert it again in the same fashion ("Per WP:NPOV")
[31].
When I challenged ScrapIronIV for reasoning or sources
[32], he responded "Not happening"
[33] and began blanking
[34] everything that didn't match his and/or MONGO's POV, with only token attempts to pretend his reasoning was any more than an echo of MONGO's "POV" claim. (Now he's all-but admitted they were deliberate POV edits
[35] in retribution.) Meanwhile, MONGO is bragging about how this is what happens to people who contradict him and his friends
[36], and accusing me of being a ban evader based on the evidence that... I'm an IP
[37] who disagreed with him.
Gee. I wonder why I ever left, this place is a paradise... oh wait, now I remember. It is a paradise... for those who know how to game the system, because the rules make it easy for them to make others waste much more time following the spirit of the rules than they themselves waste by pretending to follow the letter of the rules (well, usually
[38]). And for some strange reason, people give up once they realize this. That was why.
So, yeah. Good luck with it, and I'll go back to remembering there's no point in caring about an organization that doesn't mind being used for the ends of small groups with an agenda
[39]. (Not to mention an organization that has refused to learn from its own history, or Stephen Colbert's attempts to warn it about
Wikiality.)
2001:558:600A:4B:78C0:A7BD:D471:9409 (
talk) 21:08, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Getting more and more personal. Hugs and kisses.-- MONGO 00:25, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
I love the fact that you and ScrapIronIV are so fond of insinuating/asserting/threatening that I'm a banned editor - without a shred of evidence. For the third (or is it the fourth?) time, I'm not. I left long ago of my own accord when it became obvious that you and people like you will always win unless WP is willing to reform the rules.
It's far too easy for those who (usually) pay lip service to the letter of the rules to bury editors of good will under dozens of hours of work following the spirit of the rules. Your appeal to AGF just now by implying "Who, me? I have no idea what you mean, let's start aaaall over again and now you can beat your head against my 'army' of 'Mongo-bots'‡ to game consensus until you give up in despair" is a perfect case-in-point.
I can read histories just fine, thank you, and I do well enough at creating my own despair. So no, I'm not interested in returning to editing and wasting dozens of hours demonstrating how long you've been doing this, if you can just bat your eyes and say the magic words "But I've changed and I've learned how wrong I was, soIapologizeandnowIdeserveanotherchance (or a dozen)." Nor am I interested in hoping you'll dig your own grave a hundred feet deep by continuing to use allies who make mistakes as obvious as ScrapIronIV's.
No one, except perhaps those who try to pretend that you and your ilk haven't made WP fodder for comedians, is that obstinately blind. If not even an admin is willing to tackle you - even when your group has made it this obvious that you're colluding - there's little point in me alone trying to do so.
‡ - "Why yes I do keep saying it, but I'm only joking, you big silly. Tee hee. Like I said, let's start over again."
2001:558:600A:4B:78C0:A7BD:D471:9409 (
talk) 18:24, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm really surprised that this topic hasn't generated more input from uninvolved editors after all this time on this noticeboard. As it stands, the article has been gutted and the original editor has moved on to other topics of interest (possibly disproving the claim that it was an SPA). I'm really disappointed that, as a community, we have apparently decided to ignore the WP:RS and instead go with practically a bare bones de minimus article on the subject. Yes, it's more than a stub, but certainly not the encyclopedic work I was hoping to see when all was done. As it stands now, the article supports beliefs from popular culture (i.e. beliefs supported by television crime dramas and the like) and does nothing to inform the reader, based on RS, the way an encyclopedic article should. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing doesn't end up on WP:LAME! Etamni | ✉ | ✓ 12:53, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
I have reconsidered my position. I think we should try to build consensus around what MONGO and JRPG have proposed above. I try to see this as more of a WP:SPINOFF rather than WP:POVFORK. The problem is this. To save the deleted RS what MONGO considers peripheral for purposes of this article, multiple separate articles are needed. Could we add the debate section, which would have subsections with minimal coverage on each topic which would provide links to the main articles? ViperFace ( talk) 02:20, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't know if you have already noticed that I have created WP:SPINOFF article Constitutionality of sex offender registries in the United States and removed what might be considered as "peripheral" from the Constitutionality section. I'm planning to do this to other sections as well. I'd like to hear opinions of other editors, specifically of those who have been opposing my earlier work. Would this resolve the POV issue sufficiently so that we could at some point remove the POV template? ViperFace ( talk) 14:25, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
[71] raises an interesting question.
A person buys a property at public auction. Is it proper to add the parenthetical claim "at a price significantly below value" where no claim of collusion at the auction is made or supported by sources? Or is that added claim a non-neutral imputation that the person really should have raised his own bid at an auction to reach actual "value"? Collect ( talk) 15:04, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Your attention is called to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities#Request for comment, where a discussion is being held concerning the Sherman Oaks, Los Angeles, article. BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 19:39, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Article: History of Kyrgyzstan
Revision: http://en.wikipedia.com/?title=History_of_Kyrgyzstan&diff=693129384&oldid=693112682
Issue: Implication of an Indo-European origin of turkic-speaking Kyrgyz people without clear evidence. The phrase concerning the genetic origins of the Kyrgyz people is being misused for ethnic point of view. That the haplogroup R1a is thought to have been connected with a part of Proto-Indo-European speakers is true, however there is also considerable scholarly evidence that in the essence we are not able to determine which R1a haplotypes were carried by early Turkic tribes and which carried by early Indo-Indo-European tribes. Since Wikipedia is not a place for ethnic POV clashes, such phrases generally should not stand in this kind of articles, except there is a clear evidence of an affiliation with this ethnos-article. Currently there is no direct evidence. Thus I request an administrative intervention. -- Sikkkk ( talk) 16:05, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to bring to attention the move discussion currently under way at Talk:Genesis_creation_narrative#Requested_move_22_January_2016 in which issues of neutrality have been raised. Thanks, 101.175.138.28 ( talk) 07:46, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
In this edit at the Free Syrian Army, user Nulla Taciti returned quotes to the phrase "senior military officials" quoted by one source, explaining, "actually quoting an assertion in the article."
There is no reason why the phrase senior military official should be quote, and this appears to be an obvious case of scare quoting. Ordinarily I'd view this as just disruptive, but Nulla Taciti may not be a native speaker of English. If anyone's interested can they please verify that putting quotes around the source name cast editorial doubt upon the existence or authenticity of the source? - Darouet ( talk) 23:36, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Since roughly 2008, the " Environmental record" section of article ExxonMobil has included a subsection "Funding of global warming skepticism." The subsection was about nine paragraphs in length, and well-referenced by about 40-some reliable sources, including the The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Los Angeles Times, the The Guardian, the Union of Concerned Scientists, and InsideClimate News. The subsection summarized copious investigative journalism into what ExxonMobil knew and when they knew it regarding cliamte change, and ExxonMobil's extensively documented support for lobbying and grassroots lobbying in favor of fostering climate change denial and scepticism and in opposition to environmental regulation of greenhouse gas emissions.
24 December 2015 this subsection was moved en mass to the " Criticism" section, and 27 December 2015 re-headed " Attitude towards global warming."
Policy WP:STRUCTURE requires us to extend our neutrality principle to article organization and section headings. The subsection content is an integral component of the environmental record of the subject of the article. The subsection content includes activities, not criticisms, not attitudes. The references in the subsection are investigative journalism, not editorial opinions. The subsection move creates "an apparent hierarchy of fact where details in the main passage appear "true" and "undisputed", whereas other, segregated material is deemed "controversial", and therefore more likely to be false."
Please see previous attempts to resolve this neutrality issue at article talk at Funding of global warming skepticism section, in general and Neutrality.
Thank you. Hugh ( talk) 15:19, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
I'm still seeing seriously strong non-NPOV issues over at this article, and i think i'm the only person who's responded from this noticeboard with any sort of assistance there. Still calling for help. SageRad ( talk) 12:20, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
There are problems with POV editing, cherry picking, undue weight, coat racking and soapboxing at my bio.
Certain editors have attempted to place false information at my bio about a court trial verdict, my affiliations and why I am notable.
Certain editors at the bio appear only interested in making the bio as negative as possible regardless of reliable sources, often ignoring the historical record. They also favor minority opinions or fringe theories and cite unreliable sources that offer false and/or misleading information.
One editor said, " if [I make] suggestions non-stop [sic] and provide sources to substantiate [my] arguments, the edits based on these sources may not be to [my] liking." The point here is what? Seems like a threat of negative editing to induce me to stop making suggestions at the talk page. Another editor requested that I stop for 6-8 months. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rick Alan Ross ( talk • contribs) 21:36, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
I have reviewed the guidelines at Wikipedia and in my opinion the guidelines are not being followed by some of the editors at my bio.
Is it possible for someone to please look this over? Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 21:04, 15 January 2016 (UTC)21:45, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Hey you two - knock it off. Ross has some valid issues with some of the claims and their wording on his BLP, and with some Scientology-specializing editors, and unfortunately does not understand that iterating valid points does not gain more opinions from editors. And those editors who appear unwilling to write conservatively-written biographies should also be aware that being loud about "Ross had a hung jury and was not acquitted" when the contemporary news accounts and the actual court records agree on "acquittal" that sometimes "scholarly journals" can be absolutely wrong on facts especially when the factoid is not stressed as being important. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 22:11, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Given Rick Alan Ross' conflict of interest and need to self-market himself for his livelihood, it seems he's so entrenched in his pov that he simply doesn't understand what a neutral article about him would be. -- Ronz ( talk) 22:17, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Posting this as I recommended RR do so the current issue at hand can be discussed. In the article
Rick Alan Ross the subject,
Rick Alan Ross feels the text below does not fairly represent the sources cited to describe the publication of my his book in China.
In 2014 Ross self-published the book Cults Inside Out. [1] Ross's book was also published in China in 2015 by the Peace Book Company in Hong Kong, [2] and it was featured in two official press organs of the Chinese LOCPG, the Wen Wei Po and the Ta Kung Pao, the former describing the book as exposing "the evil cult Falun Gong", and the latter mainly referring to opposition to Falun Gong, labeling the spiritual practice as a totalitarian organization and a cult. It also describes Ross' opinion that a destructive cult is based upon behavior and not belief. [3] [4]
References
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
CultsInsideOut
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).- ^ "和平圖書". Peace Book Company. Archived from the original on January 15, 2016.
- ^ "美专家斥法轮功是邪教 批创始人是独裁者". Ta Kung Pao. Archived from the original on January 14, 2016.
- ^ "美學者:邪教「法輪功」害人 市民必須警惕". Wen Wei Pao. Archived from the original on January 14, 2016.
There is probably a better way to summarize the sources but RR does not want the content of the articles discussed at all. He only wants to use the sources to say he has been "published" in China and his book is no longer "self published". My opinion is either the publication of the book in China is a significant event in his biography, in which case we summarize the response in China, or it is not, in which case we cut the section. Jbh Talk 17:38, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Here are some facts:
- Cwobeel (talk) 19:23, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Frankly, the "published author" dispute is WP:LAME. It was self-published, but has now been published independently, so it's published. If the book is a significant factor in the subject's life in an encyclopedically relevant way, it's permissible to mention it (consider that if a football player is also an avid golfer or on the board of a nonprofit organization, their bio article will almost always mention this). Every article on a blogger we have mentions their blog, but they're self-published. WP's antipathy toward WP:SPS is with regard to their use as sources, not the fact of their existence. That said, it's up to WP editorial discretion whether Ross the subject is described as "a published author"; I would oppose it on redundancy grounds. If someone is notable and is described as an author in their article here, it's presumptive that their work has been published, so the word "author" is sufficient, and is appropriate to include in the lead. If someone is notable for some other reason, but also has self-published some stuff, this would be mentioned in the "Personal life" section, or in passing in the main body if directly relevant to what they're notable for, but it wouldn't be in the lead, and we'd say something like "has self-published a book...", not call them an author. Ross is published, so he's an author. The end.
That mountain—molehill dispute aside, Ross the editor clearly needs third-party help ensuring that Ross the subject's article follows WP:CCPOL. My own watchlist is too long to for me to promise any long-term help, but as I have no connection to the subject or the editor, and with no knowledge of or opinion about Falun Gong other than I know they're controversial, for reasons the details of which don't interest me. I'd be willing to look into the matter as an informal mediator (I'm a WP:DRN volunteer, though a recent one), if this is desired, and if this NPOVN concludes without sufficient resolution. In that event, just ping me or leave a message on my talk page, as I don't watchlist NPOVN. Or open a formal WP:DRN request and ping me. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:25, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
LouisAragon raised an interesting point here which I found to be quite controversial. I must say that the user has also been pasting such questionable material into the leads of several articles important articles which is quite worrisome if unchecked. He also appears to make rather bold POV statements such as this. The user's justifications for employing the term "Iranian Empire" is that "scholars use Iranian and Persian interchangeably for all post-Achaemenid periods, while Iranian is inarguably less ambiguous." So before I reach any conclusions, I would like to ask the community a fundamental question: is it Persian Empire or Iranian Empire? WP:NCGN states:
Use of widely accepted historic names implies that names can change; we use Byzantium, Constantinople and Istanbul in discussing the same city in different periods. Use of one name for a town in 2000 does not determine what name we should give the same town in 1900 or in 1400, nor the other way around. Many towns, however, should keep the same name; it is a question of fact, of actual English usage, in all cases.
Would that apply here in this case as well? Though the term Iranian has existed for millennia, I know that Persians never called themselves Iranians back then. Also, I've always believed that Iranian is much more of a modern nationalist term, and that we shouldn't retrospectively apply it to the Persian empire which was quite different in nature. Thanks, Étienne Dolet ( talk) 04:24, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
("In addition the Persians gained Thrace (modern-day Bulgaria) -- Kidner et al. Making Europe: The Story of the West. (e.d 2). Cengage learning. ISBN 978-1111841317 page 57.
"(...) conquering the Indus Valley and much of modern-day Bulgaria (...)" -- Thonneman, Peter.; Price, Simon (2010). The Birth of Classical Europe: A History from Troy to Augustine Penguin UK, ISBN 978-0141946863.
"at its greatest extent the empire included Afghanistan (...) adjacent areas of Central Asia to the north: Iraq, Turkey, Bulgaria", parts of Greece (...) -- C. Howard, Michael (2012). Transnationalism in Ancient and Medieval Societies: The Role of Cross-Border Trade and Travel McFarland ISBN 978-0786490332 page 39)
“The Achaemenian Empire remains to this day the largest Iranian Empire ever (…)”
“Be that, as it may, it is the Persian Empire, ruled by two consecute dynasties, the Teispid and the Achaemenian, that can be considered the first Iranian Empire”
“Iran, as a region, is defined by borders that have fluctuated over time. For most of its history, it was more than a region; it was notionally an empire, meant to be ruled by a king of kings. Such a notion of a cohesive Iranian Empire…(...)”
Muhammad had just died, but the triumphate which then assumed command of the Moslem nation, Abu Bakr, Umar, (...) after the success of the expeditions in Syria, those which were directed against the Iranian Empire.
(...) things seemsed about to turn in favour of the Persians, when reinforcements arriving unexpectedly from Syria brought about the defeat and rout of the Iranian army."
:(...) and a catastrophe was about to overthrow the ancient fabric of the Iranian monarchy - the Arabs were at the gates."
(Chapter: Sasanian Iran: "Thew new King of Kings, Ardashir I, and his son and successor Shapur I, ruled an Iranian Empire that would remain a lastig rival of the Romans and Byzantines (...)"
(...) that sought to profile a newly constituted Safavid Iranian Empire (...)
“During the Safavi era, Iranian Armenia was divided into two administrative units, Yerevan (then called Chukur-e Sa'd) and Ganjeh. Nakhjavan was part of the former, Qarabagh of the latter. Shifting fortunes of the Iranian Empire as a whole…”
The peace Treaty of Amasya (1555) between the Iranian shah and the Ottoman sultan (...)
"By the end of the eighteenth century, the Qajars took control of the Safavid domains, thus unifying the Iranian empire again."
"The basis for the relationships between the Iranian and Ottoman Empires in modern times was the Treaty of Qasr-i Shirin (17 May 1639). (...) eastern Anatolia remained under the Ottoman Sultan, while the Caucasus remained in Iranian hands, later to fall to Russia".
Your attention is called to an RfC at the 'Veganism' article, where a discussion is being held concerning the use of 'the commodity status of animals' in the lead. More neutrally-minded editors welcome. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 15:23, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 50 | ← | Archive 55 | Archive 56 | Archive 57 | Archive 58 | Archive 59 | Archive 60 |
I have noticed that a guy named Peter on here has been adding info to the Dead or Alive 5 and Metal Gear Solid 5 articles that claim the game sexualized female characters. The problem is this. They aren't written in a neutral point of view. In fact, he seems to be pushing the view that the content in question is OBJECTIVELY sexist rather than that it was accused by some of being sexist. I don't even know if the added sections can even be considered necessary/ noteworthy, considering that a similar section was on the Bayonetta 2 article and was removed because the info wasn't considered necessary. If it wasn't considered necessary/noteworthy on that article or others, it shouldn't be considered necessary/noteworthy here. What do you think?
Two editors have been reverting back and forth at 1) MOS:REGISTER and now 2) MOS:SUPPORTS. Their core purposes are to 1) record consensus on MoS decisions and 2) list external sources that back up Wikipedia's Manual of Style. They both contain brief factual descriptions of the rule in question and its alternatives.
First editor says (approximated), "Because these are not articles, we do not need to follow NPOV. They are not articles or lists."
Second other says (approximated), "Because these pages make claims of fact in Wikipedia's voice, we should follow NPOV. They are not essays or policies."
Policies cited: WP:POVNAME, WP:ASSERT, WP:FALSEBALANCE
Specifics and difs: (NOTE: Not all difs are listed; please review page history and talk pages for complete picture.) The first editor has removed reliable sources that use terminology that he does not like, has replaced common terminology with rare terms [1] [2] [3] that the second editor claims are loaded [4] [5], and has used descriptions that the second editor claims are biased [6] [7]. Second editor has provided sources to support claim that the common terms are indeed the most common. [8] Has also provided sources that may indicate that rare terms are being used inccorectly [9] [10]. Both editors accuse the other of framing the issue improperly. Both editors accuse the other of inserting arguments instead of neutral descriptions (and claim that they are using neutral descriptions) [11]. Both editors have a long history of participation in the many disputes over the MoS rule in question.
Both editors have made some effort to compromise; each has given way in the other's favor to some extent, so it is likely that a resolution may be found, but emotions are becoming heated. Please comment.
Talk page threads: Support, Register
Editors involved: alerted by poster. 14:34, 8 January 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkfrog24 ( talk • contribs)
I may be missing the whole point here, but would one possibility be to use neither the term "British" nor "American" and refer to the styles as Logical Style and Aesthetic Style? I realize that each term is "loaded" in its own way, but that would cancel and be neutral in an overall way. Or am I way off base to begin with? In any case, I just wanted to throw my two cents in.
Richard27182 (
talk) 10:49, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
We definitely should not be calling LQ "British". It's just a patent falsehood. There are multiple British quotation styles, with conflicting rules and rationales, and none of them equate to logical quotation, as at least one British publisher has pointedly told us. It doesn't matter whether Darkfrog24 doesn't like the name "logical quotation". It's the reliably sourced name of that quotation style. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:09, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
PS: It's quite possible that the term "typesetters' quotation" is used to mean different things. That's fine. Innumerable words and phrases in English mean multiple things, depending on context. But AtariMagazines.com is not a reliable source for linguistics jargon. Your second source doesn't say what you claim it does (as usual); it says "curly typesetter's [sic] quotation", clearly distinguishing the meaning. Your third link goes to an index entry demonstrating that the term exists, but the page in question is not available (the terms the Williams book actually uses – not that it's a linguistics or typography volume, either – is "real apostrophes and quotation marks" vs. "typewriter apostrophes and quotation marks" on p. 451, which goes on to lambaste the typewriter style as "stupid"; this isn't a reliable secondary source for anything on this topic but a primary one, of opinion). So, you've demonstrated nothing at all other than how to not properly back up a claim (ironic, given the nature of your "source the MoS" activism). If you do actual research on this, you find that the curly glyphs are commonly referred to as "typesetters' quotation marks [and apostrophe]" (commonly distinguished from "typewriter-style quotation marks" or "straight quotation marks"), while the quotation style is referred to as "typesetters' quotation", "typesetters' punctuation", or "typesetters' quotation style" (and, yes, often but incorrectly "American"). These are clearly distinct phrases. Ultimately, it doesn't matter because these are internal documentation pages and we can use whatever wording we have consensus to use, and we're competent enough to use them clearly. The only likely room for confusion is if we referred to both of these as "typesetters' quotes", since "quote" in informal, vernacular usage can refer to a quotation mark or a quotation (and really should refer to neither; it's a verb, not a noun). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:29, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Meanwhile, a best-selling grammar and punctuation writer (and an American one at that), Mignon "Grammar Girl" Fogarty, calls these styles "logical quotation" and "typesetters' quotation" [15], following many previous sources. So much for your claim (as usual) that there are no sources against your view. It took about 15 seconds to dig this up, while I was making coffee. Please see WP:LMGTFY, an also stop abusing Google as a cherry-picking method. Do you really think we're all so incompetent at search engine usage that we can't find information contradicting you, in mere moments, using the same tools but using them properly?
Fogarty even clearly explains one of the reasons people confuse LQ and BQ: LQ was championed notably by H.W. Fowler, who was British. But that's a meaningless demographic; everyone is from somewhere, and it doesn't mean that their motivation for everything they say is nationalistic (I'm not sure that can be said about everyone in this debate on WP, however). Modern sources like the US-based (but not US-limited) Council of Science Editors, and the Linguistic Society of America (which uses single-then-double order, BTW), are clearly not British. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 20:46, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
WP:CORE doesn't apply to anything but the encyclopedia's content. It certainly does not apply to WP:POLICY material, including guidelines. This general idea of applying the core content policies to such pages comes up very frequently at WP:MFD, and the answer is always the same: Internal projectpages are not subject to WP:V / WP:RS, WP:CORE, or WP:MPOV. The entire notion is ridiculous. There is no external source for internal consensus, and never could be. It's logically impossible for third-party material to better determine how WP must be written, for its purposes, limitations, scope, and audience, than WP itself. It's like supposing that Apple and Sun Microsystems can dictate to Microsoft how it will write its own employee policies.
All WP policies and guidelines (aside from the handful imposed on WP by WMF for legal reasons) are determined, always and entirely, by editorial consensus. That consensus is formed largely on the talk pages of the pages in question, and various sources are discussed in the process, but every second spent trying to forcibly source the MoS (or any other policypage) itself is a quixotic waste of time. There is no source for a consensus here other than the consensus discussions that lead to and bolstered it. "MOS:SUPPORTS" is an unencyclopedic, debate-manufacturing activity that will serve no end but fomenting additional and continual conflict over largely arbitrary nit-picks (and more inimically, by potentially confusing other editors into believing that non-arbitrary style consensuses enacted for real reasons are arbitrary and can be dropped at whim if only the stalwart standout yells long and loud enough). This kind of nonsense is strongly symptomatic of what drives editors away from MOS and inspires people to declare all style matters to be WP:LAME. It's completely unjustifiable to devote an entire little wikiproject-in-all-but-name (especially a redundant one) to picking apart whether an internal consensus document complies with hand-selected external punditry, on a grand total of three (out of many hundreds of potential) style matters that the page's authors have an issue with.
The supposed rationale that MoS states facts about the real world so it has to be sourced is faulty several times over. Probably most of our policies and guidelines do so, but there is no requirement to source them. Aside from that, the main impetus for adding factual claims into MoS (there are very few of them, and they can all be deleted) appears to be the same editor now suggesting that this is a rationale to 'source the MoS". I.e., it's a Trojan Horse. The same editor has editwarred for years to keep inserting in MoS and related pages the claim that logical quotation, for example, is "British" (because some American style guides don't bother to distinguish them, and this aids said editor in trying to extend MOS:ENGVAR to everything conceivable instead of to what's appropriate for it). This is precisely the kind of factual claim the editor is complaining about as "unsourced in MoS" (in actual fact, it's already disproven OR; a simple examination of various British styles guides defining British quotation styles, and sources defining logical quotation, yields different styles that are easily and consistently distinguishable. Q.E.D.).
All of this energy should instead be spent on sourcing actual articles. Most of our English grammar and style articles are poor to middling quality at best (I think only a single one of them is an FA). The primary ((em|effective}} purpose of MOS:REGISTER, then MOS:FAQ, and now this new MOS:SUPPORTS time suck and manifesto factory, is enabling one or two editors to use them as wedges to drive into the consensus-formation process, to try to goad into a specific direction the current and future opinion and debate about MOS's wording, by cherry-picking what they want to appear there, and casting a cloud of FUD over the legitimacy of various guideline points that these editors have a pet peeve about, especially getting rid of logical quotation by falsely equating it with British and trying to make it out to be "anti-American". This PoV-pushing exercise is especially ironic, given that it's being predicated on the idea that WP:NPOV should or even could apply to MoS in the first place. I was going to MfD the page this weekend, but I guess it can wait until the current discussion closes. In the interim, I'm moving MOS:SUPPORTS to be a subpage of the MoS wikiproject. It certainly is not a sub-guideline of MoS, and wikiprojects are where topical essays get filed. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 11:09, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Richard27182: I've thought about it and here's my guess as to your process. Do you think that "logical" and "aesthetic" cancel each other out because you think they're loaded in the same way? Unfortunately, that's not the case. In practice, "logical" has a positive connotation and "aesthetic" has a negative one, as in "the only good thing about this system is that it's pretty" (when it actually has many practical virtues). Even if recognizability weren't an issue, even if actively concealing the British/American notation weren't a problem—and I think those things are both more important—we'd still be hard pressed to find a word for American style that is loaded in the same way as "logical" is for British.
SmC, we're talking about MOS:REGISTER and MOS:SUPPORTS right now. The issue of whether the MoS itself is subject to NPOV should be dealt with in its own thread. Neither of these pages are essays and both make claims of fact in Wikipedia's voice. Here's a thought: If there really are lots of sources that agree with you, then go ahead and bring them up on the talk page. Then NPOV would work in your favor. So here's a question: Why wouldn't we present any facts asserted on these pages in a neutral manner? What justification is there for doing otherwise? Darkfrog24 ( talk) 18:17, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
As to your question, I'm not at liberty to publicly theorize why you use this page and several others to non-neutrally present alleged facts. Your or anyone else's justifications are irrelevant to the issue here. WP-internal documentation is not subject to WP:CORE, because those are core content policies, and the pages are not encyclopedia content. That's all there is to it. Since we've already been over this dozens of times, I'll only re-state this for people new to the discussion: A large number of conclusions reached by consensus in WP policies and guidelines are based on nothing whatsoever but WP's own internal judgement about what works best here and what does not. It is not possible to externally source these decisions. Festooning WP:POLICY pages with citations for random factoids that coincidentally can be externally sourced serves no encyclopedic purpose or even project management purpose, but would be nothing but a WP:GAMING and WP:BATTLEGROUNDING staging platform. It would intentionally blur the distinction between encyclopedia content and internal decisionmaking, in a way that implies than any consensus decision, even one with 99.9% buy-in from the community, can be deleted if it doesn't have an external source citation. WP does not work that way. Finally, it is the very purpose of guidelines and policies to be prescriptive and proscriptive, which is by definition non-neutral. Policies and guidelines are codifications of what the WP community expects of itself and those participating in it. They are not here to catalogue and describe the various ways that off-WP entities might approach such questions. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:29, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Greg_Clark_(Urbanist)
This listing is clearly promotional in nature and possibly written by the entrant.
Sources widely note that the mascot of the South of the Border (attraction) is either offensive, racist or could be interpreted as either. User:CombatWombat42 has taken the position that the extent of any mention should be that it's a caricature, no mention of how that caricature is viewed. Does anyone see an NPOV issue in noting that the mascot caricature is aruably or sometimes interpreted as either racist, politically incorrect or some language that is the like. Suggestions welcome.-- Labattblueboy ( talk) 15:50, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Alohascope ( talk) 00:38, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Biblical cosmology portion of Cosmology: Despite serious errors and lack of substantiation in the 'Biblical cosmology' portion of 'Cosmology' the editor 'All The Foxes' insists on reverting to the original text from my much more factual revision DESPITE my revision including the original text to show the reason for the changes. I suspect this is a case of an editor's personal opinion of both Old and New Testaments being false and untrustworthy. I ask for community support based on my inclusion of links in my revision testifying to the factualness of my revision, and the error of the original. Please and thank you.
Original Text: "Biblical cosmology Genesis creation narrative (c. 500 BC) Flat earth floating in infinite "waters of chaos"
My change: "I will leave the original text in 'Biblical Cosmology' unchanged, but changes should be made by an editor. The date or origin for instance of the Genesis creation narrative according to a Wikipedia article should be at least earlier than 1,000 BC, and according to other sources as early as 3,500 BC, not the 500 BC stated in the original text. Also, Babylon was a latecomer in Old Testament history when the Jews were captive there, having taken Moses' scriptures with them, with Jewish men rising to high positions in government, so the Babylonian account is likely based on Jewish scripture. In the Genesis account the "dry land" was not given a description, but appeared from beneath the waters which covered the planet earth, the earth not described as flat and circular, but a person can be led to believe the bible described the earth as circular because a sphere viewed from any angle is circular."
Original text: "Based on Babylonian cosmology. The Earth and the Heavens form a unit within infinite "waters of chaos"; the earth is flat and circular, and a solid dome (the "firmament") keeps out the outer "chaos"-ocean."
Moved by Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum due to same discussion spread over multiple threads on same page at 23:16, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
The bible seems to be held in contempt by at least one editor here, Allthefoxes, who undoes editing which corrects huge errors in a section in Cosmology which deals with biblical cosmolgy.
Allthefoxes casts a darkness upon Wikipedia which renders it unreliable in any topic.
Also, Wikipedia is just too difficult and time consuming to edit, especially with editors like Allthefoxes who is intent on destroying information. 72.253.70.70 ( talk) 22:41, 13 January 2016 (UTC)Alohascope
There is an open RfC on the Campus Sexual Assault page regarding how to deal with an argument from an opinion columnist regarding a sexual assault statistic. The case is explained in more detail on the page, but I'm posting a request for participation here because it deals, in part, with a question about neutrality.
This is a fairly old dispute, and a previous RfC was inconclusive largely due to a lack of participation. If you have time, an outside voice might help us move toward consensus. Nblund ( talk) 23:30, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Other editors have persistently been forced to revert or take action on edits made by them on these topics. In particular, they seem to be toeing the official line, making edits ostensibly defending the actions of the Syrian or Russian governments (under the guise of countering "POV-pushing"), relying on original research and unreliable sources as opposed to citing more reliable sources available. Is it possible to look into or take action on this? (Also, seems like there's some global block evasion? See CentralAuth/ru.wp ArbCom.) Thanks. 108.2.58.56 ( talk) 01:51, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
I visited two related articles, Koshare Indian Dancers and Koshare Indian Museum in the course of doing research on my current topic of interest. I found the content to be drawn from the Koshare Dancer's own website, or from travel websites that copied that content almost verbatim. Many of the links were also dead, since neither article had received much attention since the 2009 Anniversary of the group. Failing to find alternative sources of the material to fix the dead links, and generally finding the content to be unsupported by reliable, unbiased sources, I deleted much of it in preparation for merging both articles into a section in the article Otero Junior College. A merge had previously been discussed and approved in 2009 but not done, for some reason.
I place a NPOV tag on both articles, but this generated no interest, perhaps due to the holidays.
I later found some secondary sources referring to the Koshare Indian Museum and Dancers, all providing the Native American POV. Adding content from these sources drew the attention of Kintetsubuffalo, who instead of engaging in a discussion began by removing my edits, presenting his own interpretations of WP guidelines as rules, and then resorted to making personal insults.
FriendlyFred ( talk) 17:13, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
referencing not only the book itself, but a synopsis of the book on the publisher's website, Yale University Press. This content was reverted three times by Kintetsubuffalo, so I posted to the edit warring noticeboard. That posting has been archived with no action having been taken. I questioned this by posting here. FriendlyFred ( talk) 21:08, 16 January 2016 (UTC)In his book Playing Indian, Native American historian Philip J. Deloria presents his thesis that, from the Boston Tea Party to the present, white people have used their version of "Indianness" to build an American identity while ignoring the conquest and dispossession of the actual original inhabitants of this continent.
A new user ( Dontmakemetypepasswordagain) who is very fluent in Wiki-speak has openly challenged basic facts about the events in Germany and has made having a simple discussion about a NPOV page title extremely difficult. The user also continues to edit the article page selectively to remove views that differ from their own. Talk page discussion statements by the user that "It was a mass sex assault of white women by Arab/North African men" is clearly fringe theory and indicates the user's POV. I suspect that this user, who is strangely fluent in Wiki-speak and uses terms like NOTFORUM with only 100 or so edits, is up to something. Monopoly31121993 ( talk) 17:11, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Sex offender registries in the United States has serious advocacy issues and appears to have been written primarily to provide a soapbox for changes in the law. The editor that started and has been the primary author is an admitted SPA who has made few edits outside this platform. The article needs massive adjustment to conform with NPOV or if that is not possible should be deleted if policy continues to be violated and the article persists in being hopelessly biased.-- MONGO 11:08, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
Off-topic. Please comment about content, not contributors.
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5 (UTC)
The article needs to remove all the commentary throughout the history. Arguments for/against registries is out of place. that debate happens in legislatures. This article isn't the place to discuss how or if they work or whether they are effective. All that advocacy material needs to go. -- DHeyward ( talk) 23:18, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
I apologize for the late reply here; my current schedule has kept me away from Wikipedia more than I would like this past month. When I signed in today, I found that I had been pinged to this conversation way up above someplace, and feel compelled to comment about this situation. This topic has been of interest to me for some time, but I don't normally do more on this subject beyond minor copy editing. (I did suggest a merge with some other articles but there was no consensus and I closed that discussion -- the removal of the merge-templates were probably my most major edits to the article.) In general, I am interested in subjects related to disproportionate treatment of certain populations within the US, especially within the criminal justice system. This includes, but is not limited to, the treatment of those labeled as "sex offenders" by society.
As
ViperFace started editing this and other related articles, I was concerned that the sources might not have been legit or balanced, but I've found that with only two exceptions, every link I've checked has gone to sources that meet the definition of
WP:RS, and I've been unable to find any counter-examples that are anything other than "opinion pieces" where non-expert commentators basically say that they approve of sex offender registries. On my user page, since well before this discussion started, has been a userbox link to
Okrent's law, which states that the pursuit of balance can create imbalance because sometimes something is true.
(Imagine if the suggestion that an article cannot contain any POV were applied to the article on
The Holocaust.) Seriously, nearly every section of
WP:NPOV supports the work that has been done with this article. The suggestion that ViperFace should be topic-banned is ludicrous; we need more editors who will dedicate themselves to improving the articles here.
Etamni |
✉ |
✓ 08:20, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
We can remove Abel but my removals of advocacy POV pushing stands. We have more trimming to do before this article could possibly be a neutral treatise on the subject. ViperFace has used this article as advocacy platform and that is a policy violation.-- MONGO 16:05, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
A note to anyone in this place who still gives a crap: In response to my changing one word
[27] that
MONGO had previously edited in
[28] which mis-characterized the source material (and providing clear reasoning why it was a mischaracterization), MONGO deleted the whole paragraph with a mocking comment of "good point...its POV"
[29]. When I reverted and asked for reasoning or sources
[30] rather than
a hand wave, he immediately got the help of a friend (
ScrapIronIV) to revert it again in the same fashion ("Per WP:NPOV")
[31].
When I challenged ScrapIronIV for reasoning or sources
[32], he responded "Not happening"
[33] and began blanking
[34] everything that didn't match his and/or MONGO's POV, with only token attempts to pretend his reasoning was any more than an echo of MONGO's "POV" claim. (Now he's all-but admitted they were deliberate POV edits
[35] in retribution.) Meanwhile, MONGO is bragging about how this is what happens to people who contradict him and his friends
[36], and accusing me of being a ban evader based on the evidence that... I'm an IP
[37] who disagreed with him.
Gee. I wonder why I ever left, this place is a paradise... oh wait, now I remember. It is a paradise... for those who know how to game the system, because the rules make it easy for them to make others waste much more time following the spirit of the rules than they themselves waste by pretending to follow the letter of the rules (well, usually
[38]). And for some strange reason, people give up once they realize this. That was why.
So, yeah. Good luck with it, and I'll go back to remembering there's no point in caring about an organization that doesn't mind being used for the ends of small groups with an agenda
[39]. (Not to mention an organization that has refused to learn from its own history, or Stephen Colbert's attempts to warn it about
Wikiality.)
2001:558:600A:4B:78C0:A7BD:D471:9409 (
talk) 21:08, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
Getting more and more personal. Hugs and kisses.-- MONGO 00:25, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
I love the fact that you and ScrapIronIV are so fond of insinuating/asserting/threatening that I'm a banned editor - without a shred of evidence. For the third (or is it the fourth?) time, I'm not. I left long ago of my own accord when it became obvious that you and people like you will always win unless WP is willing to reform the rules.
It's far too easy for those who (usually) pay lip service to the letter of the rules to bury editors of good will under dozens of hours of work following the spirit of the rules. Your appeal to AGF just now by implying "Who, me? I have no idea what you mean, let's start aaaall over again and now you can beat your head against my 'army' of 'Mongo-bots'‡ to game consensus until you give up in despair" is a perfect case-in-point.
I can read histories just fine, thank you, and I do well enough at creating my own despair. So no, I'm not interested in returning to editing and wasting dozens of hours demonstrating how long you've been doing this, if you can just bat your eyes and say the magic words "But I've changed and I've learned how wrong I was, soIapologizeandnowIdeserveanotherchance (or a dozen)." Nor am I interested in hoping you'll dig your own grave a hundred feet deep by continuing to use allies who make mistakes as obvious as ScrapIronIV's.
No one, except perhaps those who try to pretend that you and your ilk haven't made WP fodder for comedians, is that obstinately blind. If not even an admin is willing to tackle you - even when your group has made it this obvious that you're colluding - there's little point in me alone trying to do so.
‡ - "Why yes I do keep saying it, but I'm only joking, you big silly. Tee hee. Like I said, let's start over again."
2001:558:600A:4B:78C0:A7BD:D471:9409 (
talk) 18:24, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
I'm really surprised that this topic hasn't generated more input from uninvolved editors after all this time on this noticeboard. As it stands, the article has been gutted and the original editor has moved on to other topics of interest (possibly disproving the claim that it was an SPA). I'm really disappointed that, as a community, we have apparently decided to ignore the WP:RS and instead go with practically a bare bones de minimus article on the subject. Yes, it's more than a stub, but certainly not the encyclopedic work I was hoping to see when all was done. As it stands now, the article supports beliefs from popular culture (i.e. beliefs supported by television crime dramas and the like) and does nothing to inform the reader, based on RS, the way an encyclopedic article should. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if this whole thing doesn't end up on WP:LAME! Etamni | ✉ | ✓ 12:53, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
I have reconsidered my position. I think we should try to build consensus around what MONGO and JRPG have proposed above. I try to see this as more of a WP:SPINOFF rather than WP:POVFORK. The problem is this. To save the deleted RS what MONGO considers peripheral for purposes of this article, multiple separate articles are needed. Could we add the debate section, which would have subsections with minimal coverage on each topic which would provide links to the main articles? ViperFace ( talk) 02:20, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't know if you have already noticed that I have created WP:SPINOFF article Constitutionality of sex offender registries in the United States and removed what might be considered as "peripheral" from the Constitutionality section. I'm planning to do this to other sections as well. I'd like to hear opinions of other editors, specifically of those who have been opposing my earlier work. Would this resolve the POV issue sufficiently so that we could at some point remove the POV template? ViperFace ( talk) 14:25, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
[71] raises an interesting question.
A person buys a property at public auction. Is it proper to add the parenthetical claim "at a price significantly below value" where no claim of collusion at the auction is made or supported by sources? Or is that added claim a non-neutral imputation that the person really should have raised his own bid at an auction to reach actual "value"? Collect ( talk) 15:04, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Your attention is called to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities#Request for comment, where a discussion is being held concerning the Sherman Oaks, Los Angeles, article. BeenAroundAWhile ( talk) 19:39, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Article: History of Kyrgyzstan
Revision: http://en.wikipedia.com/?title=History_of_Kyrgyzstan&diff=693129384&oldid=693112682
Issue: Implication of an Indo-European origin of turkic-speaking Kyrgyz people without clear evidence. The phrase concerning the genetic origins of the Kyrgyz people is being misused for ethnic point of view. That the haplogroup R1a is thought to have been connected with a part of Proto-Indo-European speakers is true, however there is also considerable scholarly evidence that in the essence we are not able to determine which R1a haplotypes were carried by early Turkic tribes and which carried by early Indo-Indo-European tribes. Since Wikipedia is not a place for ethnic POV clashes, such phrases generally should not stand in this kind of articles, except there is a clear evidence of an affiliation with this ethnos-article. Currently there is no direct evidence. Thus I request an administrative intervention. -- Sikkkk ( talk) 16:05, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I would like to bring to attention the move discussion currently under way at Talk:Genesis_creation_narrative#Requested_move_22_January_2016 in which issues of neutrality have been raised. Thanks, 101.175.138.28 ( talk) 07:46, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
In this edit at the Free Syrian Army, user Nulla Taciti returned quotes to the phrase "senior military officials" quoted by one source, explaining, "actually quoting an assertion in the article."
There is no reason why the phrase senior military official should be quote, and this appears to be an obvious case of scare quoting. Ordinarily I'd view this as just disruptive, but Nulla Taciti may not be a native speaker of English. If anyone's interested can they please verify that putting quotes around the source name cast editorial doubt upon the existence or authenticity of the source? - Darouet ( talk) 23:36, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Since roughly 2008, the " Environmental record" section of article ExxonMobil has included a subsection "Funding of global warming skepticism." The subsection was about nine paragraphs in length, and well-referenced by about 40-some reliable sources, including the The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, Los Angeles Times, the The Guardian, the Union of Concerned Scientists, and InsideClimate News. The subsection summarized copious investigative journalism into what ExxonMobil knew and when they knew it regarding cliamte change, and ExxonMobil's extensively documented support for lobbying and grassroots lobbying in favor of fostering climate change denial and scepticism and in opposition to environmental regulation of greenhouse gas emissions.
24 December 2015 this subsection was moved en mass to the " Criticism" section, and 27 December 2015 re-headed " Attitude towards global warming."
Policy WP:STRUCTURE requires us to extend our neutrality principle to article organization and section headings. The subsection content is an integral component of the environmental record of the subject of the article. The subsection content includes activities, not criticisms, not attitudes. The references in the subsection are investigative journalism, not editorial opinions. The subsection move creates "an apparent hierarchy of fact where details in the main passage appear "true" and "undisputed", whereas other, segregated material is deemed "controversial", and therefore more likely to be false."
Please see previous attempts to resolve this neutrality issue at article talk at Funding of global warming skepticism section, in general and Neutrality.
Thank you. Hugh ( talk) 15:19, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
I'm still seeing seriously strong non-NPOV issues over at this article, and i think i'm the only person who's responded from this noticeboard with any sort of assistance there. Still calling for help. SageRad ( talk) 12:20, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
There are problems with POV editing, cherry picking, undue weight, coat racking and soapboxing at my bio.
Certain editors have attempted to place false information at my bio about a court trial verdict, my affiliations and why I am notable.
Certain editors at the bio appear only interested in making the bio as negative as possible regardless of reliable sources, often ignoring the historical record. They also favor minority opinions or fringe theories and cite unreliable sources that offer false and/or misleading information.
One editor said, " if [I make] suggestions non-stop [sic] and provide sources to substantiate [my] arguments, the edits based on these sources may not be to [my] liking." The point here is what? Seems like a threat of negative editing to induce me to stop making suggestions at the talk page. Another editor requested that I stop for 6-8 months. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rick Alan Ross ( talk • contribs) 21:36, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
I have reviewed the guidelines at Wikipedia and in my opinion the guidelines are not being followed by some of the editors at my bio.
Is it possible for someone to please look this over? Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 21:04, 15 January 2016 (UTC)21:45, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Hey you two - knock it off. Ross has some valid issues with some of the claims and their wording on his BLP, and with some Scientology-specializing editors, and unfortunately does not understand that iterating valid points does not gain more opinions from editors. And those editors who appear unwilling to write conservatively-written biographies should also be aware that being loud about "Ross had a hung jury and was not acquitted" when the contemporary news accounts and the actual court records agree on "acquittal" that sometimes "scholarly journals" can be absolutely wrong on facts especially when the factoid is not stressed as being important. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 22:11, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Given Rick Alan Ross' conflict of interest and need to self-market himself for his livelihood, it seems he's so entrenched in his pov that he simply doesn't understand what a neutral article about him would be. -- Ronz ( talk) 22:17, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Posting this as I recommended RR do so the current issue at hand can be discussed. In the article
Rick Alan Ross the subject,
Rick Alan Ross feels the text below does not fairly represent the sources cited to describe the publication of my his book in China.
In 2014 Ross self-published the book Cults Inside Out. [1] Ross's book was also published in China in 2015 by the Peace Book Company in Hong Kong, [2] and it was featured in two official press organs of the Chinese LOCPG, the Wen Wei Po and the Ta Kung Pao, the former describing the book as exposing "the evil cult Falun Gong", and the latter mainly referring to opposition to Falun Gong, labeling the spiritual practice as a totalitarian organization and a cult. It also describes Ross' opinion that a destructive cult is based upon behavior and not belief. [3] [4]
References
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
CultsInsideOut
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).- ^ "和平圖書". Peace Book Company. Archived from the original on January 15, 2016.
- ^ "美专家斥法轮功是邪教 批创始人是独裁者". Ta Kung Pao. Archived from the original on January 14, 2016.
- ^ "美學者:邪教「法輪功」害人 市民必須警惕". Wen Wei Pao. Archived from the original on January 14, 2016.
There is probably a better way to summarize the sources but RR does not want the content of the articles discussed at all. He only wants to use the sources to say he has been "published" in China and his book is no longer "self published". My opinion is either the publication of the book in China is a significant event in his biography, in which case we summarize the response in China, or it is not, in which case we cut the section. Jbh Talk 17:38, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Here are some facts:
- Cwobeel (talk) 19:23, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Frankly, the "published author" dispute is WP:LAME. It was self-published, but has now been published independently, so it's published. If the book is a significant factor in the subject's life in an encyclopedically relevant way, it's permissible to mention it (consider that if a football player is also an avid golfer or on the board of a nonprofit organization, their bio article will almost always mention this). Every article on a blogger we have mentions their blog, but they're self-published. WP's antipathy toward WP:SPS is with regard to their use as sources, not the fact of their existence. That said, it's up to WP editorial discretion whether Ross the subject is described as "a published author"; I would oppose it on redundancy grounds. If someone is notable and is described as an author in their article here, it's presumptive that their work has been published, so the word "author" is sufficient, and is appropriate to include in the lead. If someone is notable for some other reason, but also has self-published some stuff, this would be mentioned in the "Personal life" section, or in passing in the main body if directly relevant to what they're notable for, but it wouldn't be in the lead, and we'd say something like "has self-published a book...", not call them an author. Ross is published, so he's an author. The end.
That mountain—molehill dispute aside, Ross the editor clearly needs third-party help ensuring that Ross the subject's article follows WP:CCPOL. My own watchlist is too long to for me to promise any long-term help, but as I have no connection to the subject or the editor, and with no knowledge of or opinion about Falun Gong other than I know they're controversial, for reasons the details of which don't interest me. I'd be willing to look into the matter as an informal mediator (I'm a WP:DRN volunteer, though a recent one), if this is desired, and if this NPOVN concludes without sufficient resolution. In that event, just ping me or leave a message on my talk page, as I don't watchlist NPOVN. Or open a formal WP:DRN request and ping me. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 13:25, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
LouisAragon raised an interesting point here which I found to be quite controversial. I must say that the user has also been pasting such questionable material into the leads of several articles important articles which is quite worrisome if unchecked. He also appears to make rather bold POV statements such as this. The user's justifications for employing the term "Iranian Empire" is that "scholars use Iranian and Persian interchangeably for all post-Achaemenid periods, while Iranian is inarguably less ambiguous." So before I reach any conclusions, I would like to ask the community a fundamental question: is it Persian Empire or Iranian Empire? WP:NCGN states:
Use of widely accepted historic names implies that names can change; we use Byzantium, Constantinople and Istanbul in discussing the same city in different periods. Use of one name for a town in 2000 does not determine what name we should give the same town in 1900 or in 1400, nor the other way around. Many towns, however, should keep the same name; it is a question of fact, of actual English usage, in all cases.
Would that apply here in this case as well? Though the term Iranian has existed for millennia, I know that Persians never called themselves Iranians back then. Also, I've always believed that Iranian is much more of a modern nationalist term, and that we shouldn't retrospectively apply it to the Persian empire which was quite different in nature. Thanks, Étienne Dolet ( talk) 04:24, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
("In addition the Persians gained Thrace (modern-day Bulgaria) -- Kidner et al. Making Europe: The Story of the West. (e.d 2). Cengage learning. ISBN 978-1111841317 page 57.
"(...) conquering the Indus Valley and much of modern-day Bulgaria (...)" -- Thonneman, Peter.; Price, Simon (2010). The Birth of Classical Europe: A History from Troy to Augustine Penguin UK, ISBN 978-0141946863.
"at its greatest extent the empire included Afghanistan (...) adjacent areas of Central Asia to the north: Iraq, Turkey, Bulgaria", parts of Greece (...) -- C. Howard, Michael (2012). Transnationalism in Ancient and Medieval Societies: The Role of Cross-Border Trade and Travel McFarland ISBN 978-0786490332 page 39)
“The Achaemenian Empire remains to this day the largest Iranian Empire ever (…)”
“Be that, as it may, it is the Persian Empire, ruled by two consecute dynasties, the Teispid and the Achaemenian, that can be considered the first Iranian Empire”
“Iran, as a region, is defined by borders that have fluctuated over time. For most of its history, it was more than a region; it was notionally an empire, meant to be ruled by a king of kings. Such a notion of a cohesive Iranian Empire…(...)”
Muhammad had just died, but the triumphate which then assumed command of the Moslem nation, Abu Bakr, Umar, (...) after the success of the expeditions in Syria, those which were directed against the Iranian Empire.
(...) things seemsed about to turn in favour of the Persians, when reinforcements arriving unexpectedly from Syria brought about the defeat and rout of the Iranian army."
:(...) and a catastrophe was about to overthrow the ancient fabric of the Iranian monarchy - the Arabs were at the gates."
(Chapter: Sasanian Iran: "Thew new King of Kings, Ardashir I, and his son and successor Shapur I, ruled an Iranian Empire that would remain a lastig rival of the Romans and Byzantines (...)"
(...) that sought to profile a newly constituted Safavid Iranian Empire (...)
“During the Safavi era, Iranian Armenia was divided into two administrative units, Yerevan (then called Chukur-e Sa'd) and Ganjeh. Nakhjavan was part of the former, Qarabagh of the latter. Shifting fortunes of the Iranian Empire as a whole…”
The peace Treaty of Amasya (1555) between the Iranian shah and the Ottoman sultan (...)
"By the end of the eighteenth century, the Qajars took control of the Safavid domains, thus unifying the Iranian empire again."
"The basis for the relationships between the Iranian and Ottoman Empires in modern times was the Treaty of Qasr-i Shirin (17 May 1639). (...) eastern Anatolia remained under the Ottoman Sultan, while the Caucasus remained in Iranian hands, later to fall to Russia".
Your attention is called to an RfC at the 'Veganism' article, where a discussion is being held concerning the use of 'the commodity status of animals' in the lead. More neutrally-minded editors welcome. Martin Hogbin ( talk) 15:23, 28 January 2016 (UTC)