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There is an ongoing dispute on the talk page (and in edit summaries) on this article about whether or not the fact that this article by former British MP Michael Meacher is used as a source and discussed necessitates the inclusion of this lengthy blockquote about September 11 from the article. There are basically three parties to the debate:
- Collect is citing NPOV as a rationale for continually trying to re-insert the quote, on the grounds that "when you cite an article - you can not just quote what you LIKE - you get it all."
- User:Ubikwit claims that Meacher's views about September 11 aren't related or pertinent to his views about the subject of the article (the Project for a New American Century), and that the article can/should discuss the latter without necessarily needing to include or address the former.
- I tried to find a middle ground between these two yesterday but quickly got sucked into the debate. My position is that NPOV dictates we should look to how reliable sources handle Meacher, and that while his views on Sept 11 might well bear discussing, there's no need to quote them in so much length in the article.
Discussion and debate begins here on the talk page, and there's an RFC up here. I'd like to invite anyone/everyone to comment as there seems to be little hope of resolving this dispute without outside help.
This is my first post to a noticeboard like this, please let me know if/how I'm doing it wrong. Thanks! Fyddlestix ( talk) 16:18, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 05:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)Leaving aside the lunatic fringe a for a moment, there is large and growing number of commentators who view the present transatlantic tensions as but the work of a small clique of ideologues who took an academically challenged presidency hostage to their radical agenda.
"large and growing number" does not mean most. When you distort the relative weight of sources, it affects the neutrality of the article. TFD ( talk) 07:31, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
and the statement that follows that. "Most is not used in the text, incidentally, "Multiple" is.According to Hammond, its recommendations were "exactly what one would generally expect neoconservatives to say, and it is no great revelation that they said it in publicly-available documents prior to September 2001."
Should the views of Meacher be included in some form? Yes. Should it be included without mention of the context of the views of Meacher of the subject of the article as part of a 9/11 conspiracy theory? No. Should views that counter Meacher's views be included in this article? Yes. Should Meacher's views be given significant weight in this article? No.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 06:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Recent edits to this article seem very problematic to me for reasons I explained briefly on the talk page there. This is a page with editing restrictions in place so I am going to leave it at that for now, but some attention is needed. Mezigue ( talk) 09:40, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Hi! I stumbled upon the Waldorf Education article a few weeks ago, and began making edits recently to bring it to a NPOV. Previously, the article read almost entirely as a promotion for Waldorf-style education, and had been cited many times previously for NPOV. I started to add references to criticisms from WP:RS [1] [2] [3] [4] [5], but ran into a dispute with a semi-single purpose editor there, User:Hgilbert, and I'm looking for more third party input. Basically, the dispute revolves around the article's possible lack of NPOV, ADVERT like statements, and above all, excessive detail and puffery, in my opinion. User:Hgilbert, before I showed up, was the only substantial contributor to the article, and has been cited previously as having a COI in relation to the page, as he's a Waldorf educator and has written extensively about Waldorf in academic settings and on other websites. Please just drop by the article's talk page, or check out the article itself, and lend a hand!-- Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 16:31, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
References
The article on Neurobics was completely rewritten by an IP (with no previous activity), removing all criticism and adding only favourable references. I have reverted those changes, but other IPs (again, with no previous activity) keep restoring the non-neutral version. I am sorry if this is not the place to report this, but I don't know what else to do.-- Gorpik ( talk) 09:20, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I wanted to solicit opinions on whether exhaustive listing of porn awards nominations is appropriate under WP:UNDUE, WP:INDISCRIMINATE, or WP:BLPSTYLE (if you consider these lists as praise) in a biography. These nominations do not contribute to a subjects notability under WP:PORNBIO and often can not be cited to an independent source from the award givers. I had removed nominations [10] under Cytherea and was reverted [11]. Other examples where the awards nominations section outweigh the rest of the biography considering the underlying sources: Riley Reid, Skin Diamond, Ann Marie Rios, and most of the other recent porn actor pages. Morbidthoughts ( talk) 05:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Hold on, two different topics being confused here. We're not talking about the Notability of the awards, we're just discussing if its appropriate to list them for a particular subject in their article. From many of the comments, I don't seen that distinction being understood. For example, the Morgan Prize or Wolf Prize are about as obscure as it gets for awards, but I don't see anyone objecting to listing a "win" for them in the article for those who have received it, nor do I recall front page coverage in the New York Times or other major publication du jour. -- Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 02:56, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
I personally include both wins and nominations when I create new articles, but I organize the accolades neatly into tables. This discussion began over the illegible and mostly unsourced listing of Cytherea's award & nominations, which I have fixed. The solution would have been to simply tag the section for cleanup, not remove the nominations. Porn biographies should not be treated any differently from those on mainstream performers, which not only lists both awards and nominations within the article, many also have a separate article for lengthy awards/nominations listings ( [12] & [13]). There are some special cases where listing nominations should be avoided ( we are unable to provide a complete nominations listing for those active in the porn industry prior to 2000), but this isn't a problem for those who debuted in porn after 2000. Rebecca1990 ( talk) 05:22, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Comment - Given this discussion in its entirety, sounds like we have enough input to write a decently comprehensive section about Awards on the Porn Project page about which and how many awards and/or nominations to include in a WP:PORNBIO article.
The article Southern_strategy in general terms describes an alleged strategy used by the GOP, starting with the Nixon administration, to appeal to racism in southern voters as a way to win the south from the Dixiecrats. It is a politically sensitive article because can be used to cast the GOP in a negative light. A number of external articles have mentioned the notion of a "racist southern strategy" as if it were a mater of record the same way the "Pinto Memo" has been treated as established fact. The article is vague regarding exactly what the "southern strategy" really is. This is important because a strategy to appeal to southern voters who were unhappy with the Dixiecrats based on say fiscal or military defense policy is much different than a strategy that appeals based on racism. Where this is an issue is one person might say "there was a southern strategy" but it appealed to religious values vs one that appeals to racism. Thus an article that simply says "yes" doesn't actually support the hypothesis of the wiki entry which was the policy existed AND it was racist in it's intent.
There are some sources which I feel pass Wikipedia's standard for reliable sources which I feel should be added to the article. Several editors have refused to allow these sources while being accepting of and even refusing to allow changes to other sources.
I believe the article should have the following changes. First, the article needs to define what "the southern strategy" is as it relates to the text. This will better enable editors and readers to decide if a citation supports just a plan to win southern votes or a plan to win southern votes via racism. Second, I would like the article to include a second that indicates that the facts of the "southern strategy" are in dispute and includes links to sources that dispute the general narrative. Here is an example of my attempt to include dissenting view articles. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Southern_strategy&diff=653327160&oldid=653323277 Involved parties are myself, MastCell, North Shoreman, Gamaliel, The Four Deuces -- Getoverpops ( talk) 20:41, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Gamaliel, I believe the neutrality of the article is in question, not just my edits. However, if this is a redundant notice we can remove it. I'm not a seasoned editor so if I miss a rule I apologize. North Shoreman, that comment should be removed as it is a provocation -- Getoverpops ( talk) 21:14, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
I think, as a more neutral section, we should target the section to talk about what actions were taken as part of the "Southern Strategy" and to what extent sources feel they had an impact. Given the scope of the article a section talking about impact would be well within the scope of the project. Last night I put together a quick list of sources, both pro "racist policy" and against. The pro list is not comprehensive but instead looks at the sources citied in the Wiki Lead. Based on a review of these sources I think what we can agree on was the GOP was looking at how to win southern votes. The GOP, as virtually all political groups would, was cognizant of ethnicities and their moods in various areas. However, I don't think that being cognizant is the same thing as pandering too. A number of the articles either directly or indirectly support the idea that the GOP's plan at the presidential level (I'm sure both parties had members who did ugly things at local and regional levels) was to avoid antagonizing. Several cite Nixon's record on race related issues as one that does not show a policy of pandering to the South. Some of the sources suggest that it was really the south that needed the GOP (or conformed to the ideas of the GOP) rather than the GOP bending to the will of the South. Anyway, here are some sources and discussions of each:
Sources that are used to support the "Pro racism" POV.
[2]. Both of Herbert's articles are Op-Ed pieces. Herbert is a well published Op-Ed writer with columns in major papers. However, by that standard we also can/should include columns by opinion writers like Ann Coulter. Currently Herbert's articles are being given undue weight.
These are articles I think don't support the idea that there was a "southern strategy" based on pandering to the racism of voters in the south. Note that I would not call "avoiding the subject" or "treading lightly around the subject" pandering.
Gerard Alexander: [10] This is an opinion article by an academic researcher in the field. The article questions the GOP's need to court southern voters at any cost. Thus the same candidates who were fighting for civil rights in the late 50s and early to mid 60s were unlikely to quickly change their tack to appeal to a segment if the need wasn't as critical. This supports the claims by other sources that claim the GOP was race sensitive to the south but did not (at least at the presidential level) play to racist fears or make promises that would specifically target racists (the general thrust of some tellings of the southern strategy).
Wallace voters ended up supporting Nixon, Reagan and other Republicans, but much more on the national GOP's terms than their own. The Republican Party proved to be the mountain to which the Deep South had to come, not the other way around. This explains why the second assumption is also wrong. Nixon made more symbolic than substantive accommodations to white Southerners. He enforced the Civil Rights Act and extended the Voting Rights Act. On school desegregation, he had to be prodded by the courts in some ways but went further than them in others: He supervised a desegregation of Deep South schools that had eluded his predecessors and then denied tax-exempt status to many private "desegregation academies" to which white Southerners tried to flee. Nixon also institutionalized affirmative action and set-asides for minorities in federal contracting.
Sean Trende: [11] Author is opinion writer. Includes the claim that McGovern was too liberal to get strong southern support and hence Nixon got much of the vote by default. This again supports the notion that a southern strategy was one which avoided antagonizing rather than appealing to racial feelings.
Kevin Williamson: [12]Another article supporting the theory that GOP successes in the south started prior to '68 and during a time when the GOP was pushing for more civil rights protections than the Democrats. This is yet another source that says the shift wasn't based on race. That doesn't prove no racist plans were laid but again, it supports the idea that the GOP was more likely to try to walk a fine line (not antagonize) vs appeal to. Note that in searching the reliable source archives I've found that NR is considered a reliable source even though it is a right leaning source.
Gerard Alexander: [13] I have been accused of cherry picking from this article. However, if the wiki article is about presidential campaigns only then, no, no cherry picking here. The author (same as WP author above) says that the repubs in the south had to engage in nasty politics to win elections, that was political expedience.
The mythmakers typically draw on two types of evidence. First, they argue that the GOP deliberately crafted its core messages to accommodate Southern racists. Second, they find proof in the electoral pudding: the GOP captured the core of the Southern white backlash vote. But neither type of evidence is very persuasive. It is not at all clear that the GOP's policy positions are sugar-coated racist appeals. And election results show that the GOP became the South's dominant party in the least racist phase of the region's history, and got—and stays—that way as the party of the upwardly mobile, more socially conservative, openly patriotic middle-class, not of white solidarity.
The bolded text (my emphasis) hits the key point. What ever the "southern strategy" was the key point of the strategy towards the south at the time, according to a number of authors, was not to appeal to racism. It seems instead they were racially cognizant and crafted a message not to offend. This also aligns with the previous comments that Nixon was not interested in offering much to southern politicians in exchange for support.
What we have is enough information to cast doubt on the original opening claim of the Wiki article. The original claim, which was changed after this dispute was filed, was an appeal to racism. The sources which purport to prove it was an appeal to racism aren't as strong as some claim. I have not reviewed all the sources in the Wiki but enough to show that the original article lead was questionable. We also have a number of sources that undermine the appeal to racism/racist theory. That leaves us with a truth that appears to probably be in the middle. There probably were some GOP candidates, especially a local/state levels who appealed to racist motives (but that is now out of the scope of the article). At the national level it appears the Nixon campaign was very continuous of the issues but there seems to be no evidence that they acted on this beyond trying to tip toe around the issue. I have seen no evidence to show that Regan's campaign was any different. Basically not promising but not antagonizing. That doesn't quite fit the spirit of even the modified lead which really suggests the GOP has sin to atone for (ie the final apology one liner I would like to see struck from the intro).
I would like input as to how to phrase a "debate about both the actions taken and the impact people thing they had on election outcomes. It's one thing to talk about something, it's another to show that promises were made or acted upon to gain support. If promises were made what were they? Is there merit to the theory that the South was basically leaving the Democrats due to both cultural drift and/or civil rights backlash? I think when authors and even participants in the events claim there was no southern strategy what they mean is there was nothing that fits the description that the "mythical southern strategy" has assumed. I wouldn't argue there was no strategy for dealing with maximizing votes in the south without alienating the other parts of the country (which were strongly in favor of civil rights).-- Getoverpops ( talk) 02:35, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
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Oops, I forgot two sources. The NY Times article http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/magazine/10Section2b.t-4.html?_r=1& but that's really a book review of "The End of Southern Exceptionalism" by Byron E Shafer and Richard Johnston (both academics in the field) and published by Harvard University Press. http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674032491
The transformation of Southern politics after World War II changed the political life not just of this distinctive region, but of the entire nation. Until now, the critical shift in Southern political allegiance from Democratic to Republican has been explained, by scholars and journalists, as a white backlash to the civil rights revolution. In this myth-shattering book, Byron E. Shafer and Richard Johnston refute that view, one stretching all the way back to V. O. Key in his classic book Southern Politics. The true story is instead one of dramatic class reversal, beginning in the 1950s and pulling everything else in its wake. Where once the poor voted Republican and the rich Democrat, that pattern reversed, as economic development became the engine of Republican gains. Racial desegregation, never far from the heart of the story, often applied the brakes to these gains rather than fueling them.
I'm out of time again but I think that should address Scoobydunk's concerns regarding a lack of books published by university presses. (Note, this edit was in process before Scoobydunk's reply above. It thus is not a direct reply to his 17:12 comments) -- Getoverpops ( talk) 17:12, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
These three lines of historical progress, taken together, have encouraged analysts to posit a "presidency-driven," even a "top-down," story of partisan change (Aistrup 1996). This view has the advantage of a powerful simplification. Yet even when the focus is only the difference among institutions during this process of change, we think that a presidential story oversimplifies the picture. The Presidency could run well ahead of Congress at key points, as it did in 1972. But it could also crash back behind it in short order, as it did just four years later. And it could suggest a modest Republican decline, for example from 1988 to 1996, when Congress was showing a strong Republican advance.
Worse yet, an analysis that privileges the presidency risks suggesting that political change was a product, not of fundamental shifts within the social base for partisan politics, but rather of an institutional - a constitutional - dynamic. We think it makes more sense to look on the presidency as reflecting the potential for both growth and retreat, and Congress as representing, "the base" beyond which neither was likely to be consolidated in the long run.
[page 169] IF the focus were not on the longer-term role of the Wallace candidacy, it would be possible to say the same thing in even more provocative fashion. First, the Republican candidate for President in 1968, Richard Nixon, did better in districts carried by Lyndon Johnson (the Democrat) in 1964 than by Barry Goldwater (the Republican): 46 percent versus 30 percent. In that sense, if anyone was a "bridge" to Republicanism in 1968, it was Johnson, not Goldwater. Likewise, if the fosuc were instead on the shape of the partisan world in the longer run, then Ronald Reagan, the Republican Candidate for President in 1980, still did far better among districts carried by Richard Nixon in 1968 than those carried by Barry Goldwater in 1964: 93 percent versus 61 percent. If there was a lasting impact from earlier Republican successes, it came by way of Nixon, not Goldwater - which is unsurprising if further Republicanism was to be built on class rather than race.
BTW, here is a peer reviewed article that denounces the idea, http://miranda.revues.org/2243, Michelle Brattain, Foretting the South and the Southern Strategy (Published in Miranda, author is Department Chair of History at Georgia State University)
Wrapped up in this narrative of party realignment is the most “modern” article of faith behind Southern exceptionalism: the Republican “Southern strategy.” Richard Nixon and his advisors, the story goes, stole a page from the Goldwater and Wallace playbooks and wooed white Southern voters into the Republican party with appeals to festering racial resentments.
... Thus contributors to The Myth of Southern Exceptionalism frequently turn their gaze elsewhere—reminding us not only that whites rioted against housing integration in Pennsylvania, but that segregation (of the Chinese) existed out west, and that NY prisons could be as brutal as Mississippi's notorious Parchman Farm. ... To those who are tempted to draw a straight line from Goldwater, through Wallace, to Nixon and beyond as evidence of Republicans manipulating white Southerners through carefully coded appeals to their racism, the new critics of Southern exceptionalism point to other, less-well-known forces working at the grassroots of Southern politics and culture—namely, moderation. This was true, as historian Joseph Crespino shows, even in the “most Southern place on earth”: Mississippi. ... By 1970, Lassiter argues, white Southerners preferred moderate policies and candidates who employed a language of abstract principles over open defiance and political extremists—a lesson that Nixon learned the hard way. One of the few “genuine” incarnations of the Southern strategy, Lassiter argues, was Nixon's decision in the 1970 midterm elections to lend his support to the Southern Republican candidates who represented the most extreme racial backlash to court-ordered school desegregation and busing. In theory (Kevin Phillip's theory to be precise) such a strategy would have hastened Southern partisan realignment. However, centrist Democrats triumphed over race-baiting Republicans in several key gubernatorial and Congressional elections. ... The national success of Nixon's appeal to middle-class whites who disdained social engineering in the name of racial equality is an extraordinarily important historical insight that challenges myths about American racial innocence. The similarity of white responses to busing across regions, for example, and the hypocrisy of Hubert Humphrey and other non-Southern Democratic liberals who resisted the application of integrationist remedies in their own backyards has newly exposed the emptiness of distinctions between de jure and de facto segregation (Crespino 178-180).
And another book that doesn't agree... Matthew Lassiter, "The Silent Majority" Princeton University Press. Page 232:
The three-way contest allowed Nixon to stake out the political center, by design and by default, as the respectable choice for middle-class voters who rejected the Great Society liberalism of Hubert Humphrey and the reactionary racial populism of George Wallace. In the first national election in which suburban residents constituted a plurality of the electorate, the Nixon campaign reached out to disaffected blue-collar Democrats but aimed primarily at white-collar Republicans and moderate swing voters in the metropolitan centers of the Sunbelt South and West and the upwardly mobile suburbs of the Midwest and Northeast. Nixon forfeited the African-American vote to the Democratic party and conceded the Deep South to the Wallace insurgency, in recognition that the Goldwater debacle of 1964 had reversed Republican trends in the high-growth states of the Outer South.
Melvin Small, "A Companion to Richard M. Nixon", John Wiley and Sons.
This "Southern Strategy/civil-rights retreat" thesis became the first, and thus the orthodox, interpretation of the administration's policies. It would be sustained in the years immediately after Nixon left office, by two groups of writers. The first were those who used the Vietnam War and the Watergate scandal as their points of reference for understanding Nixon's presidency. ...
This claim that Nixon's policies rested on liberal words and conservative deeds was exactly the opposite of what later scholars would argue.
...
There was other evidence that Nixon was not very interested in civil rights - he devoted ten pages of his nearly 1,100-page memoir to the subject. Yet, what he wrote suggested statesmanship, not sacrificing civil-rights enforcement for southern votes. Nixon expressed "justifiable price" in "peacefully desegregating schools in the South".
Many of Nixon's advisers agreed and emphasized the desegregation of school in their memoirs. "Nixon inherited a dual school system declared unconstitutional fifteen years earlier," the speechwriter Raymond Price noted in "With Nixon, "He quietly engineered its dismantling." With respect to politics, Price reiterated a line used by Nixon, that the administration had no Southern Strategy but a national strategy that included the South and that it had desegregated schools "cooperatively rather than punitively". In Before the Fall, another speechwriter, William Safire, described the president's approach to desegregation as genuinely moderate and extremely skillful - a policy of "make-it-happen, but don't make it seam like Appomattox."
...
In Nixon Reconsidered, Joan Hoff warned against "aprincipled behavior by purely ambition-driven politicians" in the United State, with its toxic mix of powerful government and superficial "media politics." In this setting, Nixon was no worse and , according to Hoff, a bit better in terms of what he achieved than other recent chief executives. She even insisted that, "most of his lasting achievements are in domestic, rather than foreign, affairs." Civil rights was a case in point. In a rejoinder to the orthodox school, Hoff defended Nixon's record as superior to that of Dwight D. Eisenhower, JFK and LBJ during the 1950s and as better than any candidate he ran against, save Hubert Humphrey in 1968. She dismissed Nixon's Southern Strategy as "short-lived"; praised his effective, albeit, "reluctant," desegregation of Southern schools; noted that it was Nixon, not Kennedy or Johnson, who put the "bite" into affirmative action; and chronicled the administration's efforts to expand opportunities for women, especially with respect to employment, despite the fact that Nixon's support of the Equal Rights Amendment was never terribly strong.
[some important points here]
The scholarly literature on the Nixon administration and civil rights has evolved in two directions. At one level , early students of this presidency established an orthodox interpretation of his policies , one that stressed the administration's conservatism and shortcomings in pursuit of a "Southern Strategy." As time passed, and as documentary evidence became available and passions cooled, scholars revised this argument and depicted the Nixon administration's civil-rights policies as complex, in terms of motivation, accomplishment, and affect. At another level, understanding of specific aspects of Nixon's rights policies has deepened , as they became the subjects of articles, book chapters, and monographs. As a result, the historiography on this subject has reached a high level of maturity and sophistication . And, yet, much remains to be studied.
So what is the bar to show that the "southern strategy" was an appeal to racism? Is being anti-bussing racism or people who feel like they put their tax dollars into their local school and they don't want to pay for kids who's parents didn't pay the local taxes to attend nor do they want their kids sent to a distant school? If we think Nixon's plan was to use racist policies can we point to any under his watch? Part of the Southern Stategy wiki article talks about the impact of the "strategy". The sources I've cited generally disagree with the idea of a southern strategy. They don't argue that some things said or done by the administration were based on race but if that is the standard do we really think any campaign is 100% clear? They also argue that the overall objective was to play the middle ground. The articles are far stronger in their idea that it was the average southern voter who's views were better represented by the Republicans and less by an increasingly progressive Democratic party that was the real cause of the shift. Hence any discussion of the "Southern Strategy" would, if they are correct, reach the conclusion that the strategy had at best a minimal impact.
Regardless, there is a clear body of evidence that does not support the telling in the current Wiki. I'm not saying the wiki needs to be changed to this version of events, only that we have enough to state this version of events should be included. -- Getoverpops ( talk) 04:18, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
At this point I think it would be best to move on to the next part of this process where we discuss what changes can be made within the article. -- Getoverpops ( talk) 11:19, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
At Heartland Institute and editor has moved a number of incidents to the start of the article before the section describing the position of the organisation and the various views on that. The reasoning is that there are more citations about the incidents than there are about the general organisation and its position. On the talk page objections were aired by myself and another editor at Talk:The_Heartland_Institute#Layout_of_the_page, however they just ignored continued complaints after giving their initial reason and then reverted a change back.
Does weight mean that the sections of an article should be arranged according to coverage irrespective of logical development? Dmcq ( talk) 21:01, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
diff shows page with the incidents in a lower section and current shows it with the sections 1.1 February 2012 document misappropriation, 1.2 Call for US House ethics investigation, and 1.3 May 2012 billboard campaign before the position section. Dmcq ( talk) 21:07, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. Hugh ( talk) 23:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Surely there are some people look at this noticeboard that can give an opinion on how much NPOV and WEIGHT should dictate the ordering of sections in an article? That was the grounds for the reordering of the article before this talk about a style guide above. Or are the grounds now really based on a style guide and I should have raised an RfC? I asked Hugh which they would prefer but they wouldn't answer and now it's raised here they've changed their grounds. Dmcq ( talk) 11:24, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
There's no global guideline on article structure, but I think the guiding principle should be comprehensibility. As such, general information should precede specifics, and facts should precede analysis. The most noteworthy aspects of a topic should be in the lede, but beyond that don't need to quash other encyclopedic information in the article. Rhoark ( talk) 02:39, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Please join the discussion at Category talk:Opposition to same-sex marriage over a proposal to remove it from the supercategory Category:Discrimination against LGBT people. Arguments against include the statement that the category has a subcategory of LGBT opponents of same-sex marriage or that the word discrimination connotes an opinion, while arguments in favor include the statement that it is verifiable, neutral, and defining, or that the sexual orientation of the opponents would not change a discriminatory character of their views. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 21:54, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Hi, I hope this is the right way to go about this:
I came across Mark Ghuneim a while ago. To me, it read like a puff PR piece with gratuitous name-dropping of famous artists signed to Sony and other off-topic material about the companies he's worked for that seemed seriously adverty. Since these companies each have their own articles, it seems that such material should be covered there rather than seemingly conflating the article about an executive or founder. I've tried to clean it up but my attempts have been reverted more than once.
The main author of this article has denied any COI, but has already been caught lying about ownership of a photo of the subject. Between the lying, the tenacious ownership of this article and a pattern of editing primarily celebrity tech execs, I'm finding a lack of connection highly unlikely. It certainly gives the appearance of a COI for this editor.
At this point, it seems the main author seems to object to any changes including the addition of maintenance templates like {{
advert}}
and {{
coi}}
.
[18] The editor believes that I have
some sort of personal vendetta and has gone as far as telling me not to edit the article
[19]. At this point, I'd prefer NOT to edit the article, but I think it still needs to be cleaned up.
I've opened a discussion on the talk page but since nobody else is participating, it's not going anywhere. I'd appreciate additional folks commenting on the talk page and/or active editing.
Thanks. The Dissident Aggressor 23:09, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I want to solicit my view whether the (1) mention, and (2) way of mention, of the group Momoiro Clover Z in articles Music of Japan and J-pop, as well of the artist Kyary Pamyu Pamyu in the J-pop article, is not appropriate under WP:STRUCTURE, WP:WEIGHT, WP:BALANCE, WP:GEVAL.
I already held the user's talk page discussion in February ( 1), February-April ( 2) and April ( 3 and 4). The users Anosola ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Moscow Connection ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) do not understand, do not accept or intentionally ignore my warnings about the violation of the NPOV principles. If perhaps my understanding is wrong, then fully accept it and apologize for interference. The exceptional information and image of Momoiro Clover Z was first included by Anosola on 28 July 2013 ( [20]) at J-pop article, and 29 July 2013 ( [21]) at Music of Japan article. The mention and inclusion of Momoiro Clover Z at Music of Japan with reason was dismissed on 14 August 2013 ( [22]). However, on 5 September 2013 ( [23]) user Anosola reverted the information (see with "Next edit →" two following edits), and by "Add the explanation", to substantiate evidence for support of group inclusion, just further described groups characteristics and cited one survey according which Momoiro Clover Z "attracts the highest interest level of all the female idol groups in Japan". The same J-pop edit already featured the survey, and with it was claimed how "is one of the most successful" ( [24]), and removed the generally accepted claim "Starting from 2010, idol groups such as AKB48 and Arashi have gained a huge popularity across the country, and both groups dominated the Oricon charts in 2011 and 2012" ( [25]). On 5 May 2014 user Anosola added the second survey to substantiate the inclusion ( [26]).
The idol group Momoiro Clover Z is (just) one of many female idol groups in Japan, which by characteristics is not special or more noteworthy than the others. It is a music act which according Discography, and the TOP 50 records (albums/singles) yearly sales lists from 2010 until 2014 had only one (!) record (2013, #22 album) in the TOP 50 album and single (2010), album and single (2011), album and single (2012), album and single (2013), album and single (2014), and by sales compared to countless others music acts is unworthy of exceptional mention or it's image, besides the listing among popular female idol groups in the 2010s. The other music act, Kyary Pamyu Pamyu, is also exceptional mention, it did not gain international popularity worthy of mention, and the claim is substantiated with Katy Perry and Ariana Grande tweets, according which it is noteworthy and became "internationally popular" single because Katy Perry and Ariana Grande tweeted about it?!
Both articles, Music of Japan and J-pop, follow the "sales" as pattern (WP:STRUCTURE) by which each music act is noteworthy (WP:WEIGHT), and according their prominence is also included an image (WP:BALANCE). Isn't using characteristics unworthy of mention and two surveys or tweets making false balance (WP:GEVAL), compared to sales breaking "Balancing aspects" according which "should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to the weight of that aspect" ( WP:BALASPS), the tweets and only two surveys quite biased sources, and breaking (especially as is not a music act generally worthy of mention in the Music of Japan article) already mentioned NPOV principles?
Problem with the articles is that they are not in a good condition and over time not many users majorly edited them. I even done a edit ( [27]) where the exceptional mention of Momoiro Clover Z in the two surveys stayed, but it was reverted by Anosola because of personal reasons (I suspect is fan of the group), and wants the image of Momoiro Clover Z in the article. He considers that a group is the most popular because two certain surveys says so, and vague term 「特典商法」 which is totally irrelevant for the article. The user Moscow Connection tried to make a false balance listing music reviews, or YouTube views, while in the same statement contradicted self, not only by views, but as the most Japanese music acts have very strict policy about the copyright, especially the contract with YouTube.
Wikipedia is a site intended to host encyclopedic material, and since is not a website for promotion or propagation, I removed or edited their mention several times, and in the exact several times the mention was reverted and received the threat of edit-warring over unnotable music act, unnotable in extent of mention or for the specific article.-- Crovata ( talk) 23:50, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
For future reference: [54]. (Just in case it starts all over again.) -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 00:35, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
HOUSEKEEPING NOTE - This is part of a debate at Talk:Anthony Watts (blogger) which spilled over to other threads including
We can use some more watchful eyes on Anthony Watts (blogger). The key issue in dispute is whether Watts should be described as a "skeptic" or a "denier". According to WP:WTW, the term "denier" should only be used if it's widely used by reliable sources. According to a random sampling of 10 reliable sources (including peer-reviewed journals), the vast majority used the term "skeptic":
These were the first 10 reliable sources randomly selected by Google. One could reasonably argue whether 10 sources is an adequate sample size (if so, just ask, and I can expand the sample size). But based on these results, sources refer to Watts or his blog as:
I also performed a random sampling (as selected by Google) of sources not behind a paywall in Google Scholar, and here are the results:
Google Scholar Totals:
According to WP:WTW, the term "denier" should only be used if it's widely used by reliable sources. Based on two completely different random samplings of reliable sources, it seems pretty apparent that the overwhelming majority of sources don't use the term "denier". In fact, the total number is actually zero, let alone a wide majority. However, some editors editors are pointing to a single source, [55] by an otherwise prominent and respected climatologist who uses the term "denier" as evidence that this term is widely used by reliable sources. According to Wikipedia guidelines, the term "denier" should only be used if it's widely used by reliable sources. A single source, or small subset of sources is not a majority. I should also mention that the two subjects have criticized (Watts and Mann) each other so neither is an independent, source about the other. In any case, the key issue is this: What do the majority of reliable sources say about the matter? A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 23:22, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
We still have editors edit-warring WP:BLP violations back in the article. A handful of volunteers is not enough. Can we please get more uninvolved editors to add Anthony Watts (blogger) to their watchlist? A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 22:50, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
The Jesus article has a section called Life and teachings in the New Testament. If it were a secular section, it would not follow the Christian canon. In particular, secular scholars put the Gospel of John in a separate category from the other three Christian gospels, the "synoptics." Additionally, scholars emphasize the differences among the gospels. Instead, the section takes the Christian approach of conflating all four gospels into a single story. This approach is precisely the one that secular scholars, such as Bart Ehrman, warn us against. After months of discussion, no proponent of the current version could name a secular, tertiary, reliable source that treats the topic this way, and, after discussing options, other editors encouraged me to move forward with edits. I started removing references to John, since secular scholars don't consider it to be a meaningful source for the life of Jesus. Then I got reverted. Here's the diff: [57]
There is more than one possible way to fix this page, but certain editors want to preserve the Christian approach to the topic. That's understandable, but not appropriate for WP. I don't much care how the article gets fixed, but I would sure love some support form other editors who say that maintaining a Christian POV isn't right. Thanks in advance. Jonathan Tweet ( talk) 02:16, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
There are plenty of Christian scholars doing good scholarly work in this field. As to insisting on a particular treatment, I'm happy to treat this topic any which way, provided it's a way that a mainstream, secular, reliable, tertiary source treats it. I've suggested two or three ways, and it's the other editors who insist on this one, single way. We are here on this board because the people who want to maintain the current formant can't name a source as our model to follow. Every source I find treats the topic differently. In addition, Bart Ehrman specifically calls out the current format as Christian POV: conflating the gospels into one story. So, should we treat this topic one of the ways that RSs treat it? Or should we treat it the way a contingent of editors wants to treat it? Again, your opinion is welcome, but can you show us a source? Jonathan Tweet ( talk) 14:34, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Here's why I keep talking about tertiary sources: "Reliable tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources, and may be helpful in evaluating due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other." Years ago, I'm the one that added that final clause to this policy. On this topic, primary and secondary sources are in vast disagreement, and the topic is so big that broad summaries are useful. Jonathan Tweet ( talk) 13:51, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Any further help on this discussion would be appreciated. We are at a deadlock. I continue to insist that the section entitled "Jesus in the New Testament" should be about Jesus in the New Testament - his portrayal in that text, free of historical and secular criticism, so that such historical and secular criticism can then, in subsequent sections, be contrasted against the Biblical portrayal and better understood. Omitting or introducing criticism into this portrayal does a disservice to those readers who are not familiar with the Biblical story - which is critical to understanding all facets and history of Christianity - as well as those who wish to better understand historical and secular criticism. I further am not persuaded that a NPOV synopsis of a POV account needs to have a POV tag, as Jonathan Tweet insists. Any position contrary to mine will require major reworking not just of the Jesus page, but of every page WP has for every major religious figure: this issue is not limited to Jesus, even if that's where Jonathan Tweet has chosen to fight. Jtrevor99 ( talk) 18:52, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
There has been discussion in the past ( Talk:Terry Richardson) over the contentious issue of the photographer Terry Richardson's allegations of sexual misconduct. (None of which have been allegations of non-consensual behaviour, but rather suggesting he has used his 'influence' to convince models to do things they might otherwise not have done.) In recent history the editor has been engaging in WP:Disruptive Editing behaviour (and seems to have a history in doing this on other articles as well). We could use more voices in this discussion. Thanks. CaffeinAddict ( talk) 19:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
CaffeinAddict while accusing others of disruptive editing, please answer the points made on the talk page. The issue of my last edit has simply been having a subheading, that reflects the content written by and supported by other editors. Why do you disagree with having the subheading? Multiple editors on the talkpage have supported this. And I was following points made by editors on the talkpage. Subheadings make the content easy to navigate.
As for the content itself, it was introduced by other editors, and to me much (although perhaps not all of it) of it looks like it reflects WP:V and WP:RS (published in mainstream sources such as The Guardian). So I would add my voice to the multiple others who supported its inclusion on the talkpage, over a period of years (although we can surely add additional and/or better sources for it) Avaya1 ( talk) 00:00, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
This has been cited at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#John Carter and Ret.Prof |
THE PROBLEM: is that nobody knows when the Gospel of Matthew was written, as it is undated. Many scholars such as France 2007 p19 believe it was composed around 85CE. Others state it may have been written as early as 50 CE. See REF1, REF2, , REF3, REF4, REF5 REF6, REF7 Reference books such as The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible, 2010 simply state that scholars have set the time anywhere between 50 and 115.
MAURICE CASEY: who is one of the world's leading Biblical scholars published Jesus of Nazareth in 2010. This work came down in favour of the 50-60 CE date. Then several months ago Casey published Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths? 2014 which laid out the the scholarly argument for his position. See pp 93 ff
THE SPECIFIC CHANGE BEING PROPOSED: See Diff 1 Diff 2
DEBATE: GOSPEL OF MATTHEW (talk) - NPOV dispute and edit warring.
CLARIFICATION NEEDED: Is the deletion of the early 50 CE date a violation of WP:NPOV? Also can a number of editors form a "consensus that policies regarding NPOV do not apply" to this article? If so in what circumstances? - Ret.Prof ( talk) 00:06, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
If anything, considering the history of the OP here, the most likely policy and guideline considerations involved here would be WP:TE and WP:POV, and, I suppose some might say WP:NOTHERE might apply as well. NPOV is unfortunately, as I think you have probably been told repeatedly already, not the only rule which we have to follow. WP:NPOV specifically includes the section regarding WP:WEIGHT, and as per that aspect of the policy in question we also have to deal with the matter of how much regard any given academic opinion in a field in which there exist a huge number of academic opinions should receive. I very strongly suggest that you perhaps more thoroughly familiarize yourself with that aspect of the policy. We cannot by definition give prominence to all the minority opinions in a field in which there are a huge number of minority opinions. Nor can we give prominence to the opinions of what are, so far as I can tell, non-notable belief systems whose beliefs are substantially at odds with the prevailing academic opinions and opinions of the more notable belief systems in those specific areas. I would welcome input from @ Ian.thomson:, @ In ictu oculi:, and @ Andrevan: regarding whether they think this matter might be better and perhaps more finally resolved at ANI. John Carter ( talk) 00:45, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
There appears to be about 20 secondary sources and 10 tertiary sources that support Casey's 50 CE date for the completion of the Gospel of Matthew. I propose a compromise based on:
These are trusted and up to date tertiary sources. My compromise proposal is as follows:
The date of the Gospel of Matthew has been set anytime between 50 and 115 CE. The 85 CE date remains the most widely supported.
This is just a proposal and I welcome further input - Cheers Ret.Prof ( talk) 15:26, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
I have carefully reviewed the arguments made at the GOSPEL OF MATTHEW (talk), DSN and on this talk page. I think we are in much better shape! Indeed we appear to have reached consensus as to the following:
Most scholars believe the Gospel of Matthew was composed between 80 and 90 CE, with a range of possibility between 70 to 110 CE.
Most scholars believe the Gospel of Matthew was composed between 80 and 90 CE, with a range of possibility between 50 to 110 CE.
To simply acknowledge the possibility of the 50 CE date is very, very little weight. One the other hand to deny the possibility of the 50 CE date is not supported by the scholarship and would mislead the reader in regards to the 50 reliable sources that put forward the 50 CE date.
We seem very very close to a resolution. Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 03:05, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
The problem with Ret.Prof's proposal:
Most scholars believe the Gospel of Matthew was composed between 80 and 90 CE, with a range of possibility between 50 to 110 CE.
is that he provides no source for it - i.e., no citation saying that "most scholars believe" that there's a range of possibility "between 50 to 110 CE." We always need sources. So I propose a slightly different wording:
[Most scholars believe the earliest possible date for the Gospel of Matthew is 70 CE, and that it was probably composed between 80 and 90 CE.
This can be sourced to Duling's article in the Blackwell Companion to the New Testament, published 2010 and a very reliable source. It also has the advantage of giving Casey's view it's proper weighting. PiCo ( talk) 06:19, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Excellent points. As you know I have used Blackwells many times in the past and this source reflects my thinking on the topic. I personally support Dunn and believe the Oral Tradition remained strong until the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE. H. Patrick Glenn Legal, Traditions of the World, Oxford University Press, 2007. pp 94 - 97 Therefore the earliest Gospels would not have come into existance until that date and the Gospel of Matthew could not have been completed until 85 CE - Ret.Prof ( talk) 15:38, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
It was not appropriate for @ StAnselm:, as an involved editor, to hat a request for dispute resolution. This is apparently something that has been discussed previously, but not at this noticeboard. I'll note that an attempt at dispute resolution closed unsuccessfully with a recommendation to look for clarification at other noticeboards [63]. Some of the diffs above discuss the possibility of an RfC, but I don't see that it actually happened. Whatever relevant discussion has taken place, it should be linked here for the benefit of the uninvolved. Consensus can change, and local consensus cannot override project-wide policy like NPOV. If it is shown that prior discussion did address all policy-based concerns and that this is a tendentious filing, appropriate consequences can be considered at that point. Editors will kindly avoid premature unilateral threats of punishment. Rhoark ( talk) 04:50, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
The threats of being banned, the many many personal attacks, the false accusations etc etc. are not appropriate to this notice board. Furthermore , being followed around and harassed has made it impossible for me to edit. Therefore I am stepping back from Wikipedia and will take an extended break until I figure out what to do next. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 20:03, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
The discussions both at my talk page, User talk:Robert McClenon, and here show differently ugly behavior by two editors, User:John Carter (JC) and User:Ret.Prof (RP). On the one hand, JC, in addition to making arguments that are at least plausible for tendentious editing by RP, is engaging in the repeated personal attack of claiming that there are competency issues, and is repeatedly threatening to file reports at ANI. There is nothing in the discussions of the date of the Gospel of Matthew that in any way suggests a lack of basic competency. Disagreement with the majority of editors, and the proposal of views that are considered fringe by scholarship, may be single-purpose editing, and may be fringe editing, but it is not a lack of competency, a criterion that is more applicable to editors who have difficulty with logic or with the English language, which RP does not. On the other hand, RP does have a record of repeatedly running away when challenged, and of stating that he plans to take extended breaks, a form of editorial cowardice that neither serves him well nor serves Wikipedia well; all that it does is to permit him to introduce issues that do not get resolved, only so that they can be brought up again later as never resolved. One of RP's edit summaries accused JC of bullying him. While the allegations of wikistalking, wikihounding, and wikibullying are far more often used wildly and irresponsibly in content disputes or to cover one's own conduct than used correctly, there is some validity here. Neither editor is behaving in a constructive way. Several months ago a discussion at the dispute resolution noticeboard was closed as failed with the recommendation that consensus could be sought by a Request for Comments. A Request for Comments would still be a better idea than either continued unresolved discussion or the talk of going to ANI or arbitration. (I will note that arbitration often does not work well for editors who have previously been sanctioned in arbitration.) The issue about neutral wording of scholarly disagreement about the date of Matthew is not being helped by the behavior of either JC or RP. An RFC should still be considered as to what is appropriate wording. Robert McClenon ( talk) 21:23, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I have carefully read the suggestions of Guy and OP. I agree! - Ret.Prof ( talk) 03:37, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
These many supposed deficiencies of Ret.Prof include being an "incompetent editor who pushes fringe", "rudeness","disruptive editing", "POV pushing", "Tendentious editing", "taking breaks", "single-purpose editing", "running away", "being nonsensical to the point of incomprehensibility", "editorial cowardice", "not behaving in a constructive way", "arrogance" "being woefully illogical", "problematic edits" and "Self-aggrandizement" to the point of "being truly bizarre. Indeed he is not a "real professor" and is the kind of vexatious editor who drives away good editors" Thus he is "no longer welcome" to edit at Wikipedia.
In the article on the Gospel of Matthew 70 to 110 CE is the stated range for the date of composition. A date earlier than that is precluded as a possibility.
The lede presently notes that there is minority support for a pre-70 date, which I believe is the condition that was sought.
Rhoark (
talk) 21:27, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
{{Request close}}
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 45 | ← | Archive 49 | Archive 50 | Archive 51 | Archive 52 | Archive 53 | → | Archive 55 |
There is an ongoing dispute on the talk page (and in edit summaries) on this article about whether or not the fact that this article by former British MP Michael Meacher is used as a source and discussed necessitates the inclusion of this lengthy blockquote about September 11 from the article. There are basically three parties to the debate:
- Collect is citing NPOV as a rationale for continually trying to re-insert the quote, on the grounds that "when you cite an article - you can not just quote what you LIKE - you get it all."
- User:Ubikwit claims that Meacher's views about September 11 aren't related or pertinent to his views about the subject of the article (the Project for a New American Century), and that the article can/should discuss the latter without necessarily needing to include or address the former.
- I tried to find a middle ground between these two yesterday but quickly got sucked into the debate. My position is that NPOV dictates we should look to how reliable sources handle Meacher, and that while his views on Sept 11 might well bear discussing, there's no need to quote them in so much length in the article.
Discussion and debate begins here on the talk page, and there's an RFC up here. I'd like to invite anyone/everyone to comment as there seems to be little hope of resolving this dispute without outside help.
This is my first post to a noticeboard like this, please let me know if/how I'm doing it wrong. Thanks! Fyddlestix ( talk) 16:18, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
-- Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 05:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)Leaving aside the lunatic fringe a for a moment, there is large and growing number of commentators who view the present transatlantic tensions as but the work of a small clique of ideologues who took an academically challenged presidency hostage to their radical agenda.
"large and growing number" does not mean most. When you distort the relative weight of sources, it affects the neutrality of the article. TFD ( talk) 07:31, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
and the statement that follows that. "Most is not used in the text, incidentally, "Multiple" is.According to Hammond, its recommendations were "exactly what one would generally expect neoconservatives to say, and it is no great revelation that they said it in publicly-available documents prior to September 2001."
Should the views of Meacher be included in some form? Yes. Should it be included without mention of the context of the views of Meacher of the subject of the article as part of a 9/11 conspiracy theory? No. Should views that counter Meacher's views be included in this article? Yes. Should Meacher's views be given significant weight in this article? No.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 06:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
Recent edits to this article seem very problematic to me for reasons I explained briefly on the talk page there. This is a page with editing restrictions in place so I am going to leave it at that for now, but some attention is needed. Mezigue ( talk) 09:40, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Hi! I stumbled upon the Waldorf Education article a few weeks ago, and began making edits recently to bring it to a NPOV. Previously, the article read almost entirely as a promotion for Waldorf-style education, and had been cited many times previously for NPOV. I started to add references to criticisms from WP:RS [1] [2] [3] [4] [5], but ran into a dispute with a semi-single purpose editor there, User:Hgilbert, and I'm looking for more third party input. Basically, the dispute revolves around the article's possible lack of NPOV, ADVERT like statements, and above all, excessive detail and puffery, in my opinion. User:Hgilbert, before I showed up, was the only substantial contributor to the article, and has been cited previously as having a COI in relation to the page, as he's a Waldorf educator and has written extensively about Waldorf in academic settings and on other websites. Please just drop by the article's talk page, or check out the article itself, and lend a hand!-- Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 16:31, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
References
The article on Neurobics was completely rewritten by an IP (with no previous activity), removing all criticism and adding only favourable references. I have reverted those changes, but other IPs (again, with no previous activity) keep restoring the non-neutral version. I am sorry if this is not the place to report this, but I don't know what else to do.-- Gorpik ( talk) 09:20, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I wanted to solicit opinions on whether exhaustive listing of porn awards nominations is appropriate under WP:UNDUE, WP:INDISCRIMINATE, or WP:BLPSTYLE (if you consider these lists as praise) in a biography. These nominations do not contribute to a subjects notability under WP:PORNBIO and often can not be cited to an independent source from the award givers. I had removed nominations [10] under Cytherea and was reverted [11]. Other examples where the awards nominations section outweigh the rest of the biography considering the underlying sources: Riley Reid, Skin Diamond, Ann Marie Rios, and most of the other recent porn actor pages. Morbidthoughts ( talk) 05:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Hold on, two different topics being confused here. We're not talking about the Notability of the awards, we're just discussing if its appropriate to list them for a particular subject in their article. From many of the comments, I don't seen that distinction being understood. For example, the Morgan Prize or Wolf Prize are about as obscure as it gets for awards, but I don't see anyone objecting to listing a "win" for them in the article for those who have received it, nor do I recall front page coverage in the New York Times or other major publication du jour. -- Scalhotrod (Talk) ☮ღ☺ 02:56, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
I personally include both wins and nominations when I create new articles, but I organize the accolades neatly into tables. This discussion began over the illegible and mostly unsourced listing of Cytherea's award & nominations, which I have fixed. The solution would have been to simply tag the section for cleanup, not remove the nominations. Porn biographies should not be treated any differently from those on mainstream performers, which not only lists both awards and nominations within the article, many also have a separate article for lengthy awards/nominations listings ( [12] & [13]). There are some special cases where listing nominations should be avoided ( we are unable to provide a complete nominations listing for those active in the porn industry prior to 2000), but this isn't a problem for those who debuted in porn after 2000. Rebecca1990 ( talk) 05:22, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
Comment - Given this discussion in its entirety, sounds like we have enough input to write a decently comprehensive section about Awards on the Porn Project page about which and how many awards and/or nominations to include in a WP:PORNBIO article.
The article Southern_strategy in general terms describes an alleged strategy used by the GOP, starting with the Nixon administration, to appeal to racism in southern voters as a way to win the south from the Dixiecrats. It is a politically sensitive article because can be used to cast the GOP in a negative light. A number of external articles have mentioned the notion of a "racist southern strategy" as if it were a mater of record the same way the "Pinto Memo" has been treated as established fact. The article is vague regarding exactly what the "southern strategy" really is. This is important because a strategy to appeal to southern voters who were unhappy with the Dixiecrats based on say fiscal or military defense policy is much different than a strategy that appeals based on racism. Where this is an issue is one person might say "there was a southern strategy" but it appealed to religious values vs one that appeals to racism. Thus an article that simply says "yes" doesn't actually support the hypothesis of the wiki entry which was the policy existed AND it was racist in it's intent.
There are some sources which I feel pass Wikipedia's standard for reliable sources which I feel should be added to the article. Several editors have refused to allow these sources while being accepting of and even refusing to allow changes to other sources.
I believe the article should have the following changes. First, the article needs to define what "the southern strategy" is as it relates to the text. This will better enable editors and readers to decide if a citation supports just a plan to win southern votes or a plan to win southern votes via racism. Second, I would like the article to include a second that indicates that the facts of the "southern strategy" are in dispute and includes links to sources that dispute the general narrative. Here is an example of my attempt to include dissenting view articles. https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Southern_strategy&diff=653327160&oldid=653323277 Involved parties are myself, MastCell, North Shoreman, Gamaliel, The Four Deuces -- Getoverpops ( talk) 20:41, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Gamaliel, I believe the neutrality of the article is in question, not just my edits. However, if this is a redundant notice we can remove it. I'm not a seasoned editor so if I miss a rule I apologize. North Shoreman, that comment should be removed as it is a provocation -- Getoverpops ( talk) 21:14, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
I think, as a more neutral section, we should target the section to talk about what actions were taken as part of the "Southern Strategy" and to what extent sources feel they had an impact. Given the scope of the article a section talking about impact would be well within the scope of the project. Last night I put together a quick list of sources, both pro "racist policy" and against. The pro list is not comprehensive but instead looks at the sources citied in the Wiki Lead. Based on a review of these sources I think what we can agree on was the GOP was looking at how to win southern votes. The GOP, as virtually all political groups would, was cognizant of ethnicities and their moods in various areas. However, I don't think that being cognizant is the same thing as pandering too. A number of the articles either directly or indirectly support the idea that the GOP's plan at the presidential level (I'm sure both parties had members who did ugly things at local and regional levels) was to avoid antagonizing. Several cite Nixon's record on race related issues as one that does not show a policy of pandering to the South. Some of the sources suggest that it was really the south that needed the GOP (or conformed to the ideas of the GOP) rather than the GOP bending to the will of the South. Anyway, here are some sources and discussions of each:
Sources that are used to support the "Pro racism" POV.
[2]. Both of Herbert's articles are Op-Ed pieces. Herbert is a well published Op-Ed writer with columns in major papers. However, by that standard we also can/should include columns by opinion writers like Ann Coulter. Currently Herbert's articles are being given undue weight.
These are articles I think don't support the idea that there was a "southern strategy" based on pandering to the racism of voters in the south. Note that I would not call "avoiding the subject" or "treading lightly around the subject" pandering.
Gerard Alexander: [10] This is an opinion article by an academic researcher in the field. The article questions the GOP's need to court southern voters at any cost. Thus the same candidates who were fighting for civil rights in the late 50s and early to mid 60s were unlikely to quickly change their tack to appeal to a segment if the need wasn't as critical. This supports the claims by other sources that claim the GOP was race sensitive to the south but did not (at least at the presidential level) play to racist fears or make promises that would specifically target racists (the general thrust of some tellings of the southern strategy).
Wallace voters ended up supporting Nixon, Reagan and other Republicans, but much more on the national GOP's terms than their own. The Republican Party proved to be the mountain to which the Deep South had to come, not the other way around. This explains why the second assumption is also wrong. Nixon made more symbolic than substantive accommodations to white Southerners. He enforced the Civil Rights Act and extended the Voting Rights Act. On school desegregation, he had to be prodded by the courts in some ways but went further than them in others: He supervised a desegregation of Deep South schools that had eluded his predecessors and then denied tax-exempt status to many private "desegregation academies" to which white Southerners tried to flee. Nixon also institutionalized affirmative action and set-asides for minorities in federal contracting.
Sean Trende: [11] Author is opinion writer. Includes the claim that McGovern was too liberal to get strong southern support and hence Nixon got much of the vote by default. This again supports the notion that a southern strategy was one which avoided antagonizing rather than appealing to racial feelings.
Kevin Williamson: [12]Another article supporting the theory that GOP successes in the south started prior to '68 and during a time when the GOP was pushing for more civil rights protections than the Democrats. This is yet another source that says the shift wasn't based on race. That doesn't prove no racist plans were laid but again, it supports the idea that the GOP was more likely to try to walk a fine line (not antagonize) vs appeal to. Note that in searching the reliable source archives I've found that NR is considered a reliable source even though it is a right leaning source.
Gerard Alexander: [13] I have been accused of cherry picking from this article. However, if the wiki article is about presidential campaigns only then, no, no cherry picking here. The author (same as WP author above) says that the repubs in the south had to engage in nasty politics to win elections, that was political expedience.
The mythmakers typically draw on two types of evidence. First, they argue that the GOP deliberately crafted its core messages to accommodate Southern racists. Second, they find proof in the electoral pudding: the GOP captured the core of the Southern white backlash vote. But neither type of evidence is very persuasive. It is not at all clear that the GOP's policy positions are sugar-coated racist appeals. And election results show that the GOP became the South's dominant party in the least racist phase of the region's history, and got—and stays—that way as the party of the upwardly mobile, more socially conservative, openly patriotic middle-class, not of white solidarity.
The bolded text (my emphasis) hits the key point. What ever the "southern strategy" was the key point of the strategy towards the south at the time, according to a number of authors, was not to appeal to racism. It seems instead they were racially cognizant and crafted a message not to offend. This also aligns with the previous comments that Nixon was not interested in offering much to southern politicians in exchange for support.
What we have is enough information to cast doubt on the original opening claim of the Wiki article. The original claim, which was changed after this dispute was filed, was an appeal to racism. The sources which purport to prove it was an appeal to racism aren't as strong as some claim. I have not reviewed all the sources in the Wiki but enough to show that the original article lead was questionable. We also have a number of sources that undermine the appeal to racism/racist theory. That leaves us with a truth that appears to probably be in the middle. There probably were some GOP candidates, especially a local/state levels who appealed to racist motives (but that is now out of the scope of the article). At the national level it appears the Nixon campaign was very continuous of the issues but there seems to be no evidence that they acted on this beyond trying to tip toe around the issue. I have seen no evidence to show that Regan's campaign was any different. Basically not promising but not antagonizing. That doesn't quite fit the spirit of even the modified lead which really suggests the GOP has sin to atone for (ie the final apology one liner I would like to see struck from the intro).
I would like input as to how to phrase a "debate about both the actions taken and the impact people thing they had on election outcomes. It's one thing to talk about something, it's another to show that promises were made or acted upon to gain support. If promises were made what were they? Is there merit to the theory that the South was basically leaving the Democrats due to both cultural drift and/or civil rights backlash? I think when authors and even participants in the events claim there was no southern strategy what they mean is there was nothing that fits the description that the "mythical southern strategy" has assumed. I wouldn't argue there was no strategy for dealing with maximizing votes in the south without alienating the other parts of the country (which were strongly in favor of civil rights).-- Getoverpops ( talk) 02:35, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
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Oops, I forgot two sources. The NY Times article http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/magazine/10Section2b.t-4.html?_r=1& but that's really a book review of "The End of Southern Exceptionalism" by Byron E Shafer and Richard Johnston (both academics in the field) and published by Harvard University Press. http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674032491
The transformation of Southern politics after World War II changed the political life not just of this distinctive region, but of the entire nation. Until now, the critical shift in Southern political allegiance from Democratic to Republican has been explained, by scholars and journalists, as a white backlash to the civil rights revolution. In this myth-shattering book, Byron E. Shafer and Richard Johnston refute that view, one stretching all the way back to V. O. Key in his classic book Southern Politics. The true story is instead one of dramatic class reversal, beginning in the 1950s and pulling everything else in its wake. Where once the poor voted Republican and the rich Democrat, that pattern reversed, as economic development became the engine of Republican gains. Racial desegregation, never far from the heart of the story, often applied the brakes to these gains rather than fueling them.
I'm out of time again but I think that should address Scoobydunk's concerns regarding a lack of books published by university presses. (Note, this edit was in process before Scoobydunk's reply above. It thus is not a direct reply to his 17:12 comments) -- Getoverpops ( talk) 17:12, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
These three lines of historical progress, taken together, have encouraged analysts to posit a "presidency-driven," even a "top-down," story of partisan change (Aistrup 1996). This view has the advantage of a powerful simplification. Yet even when the focus is only the difference among institutions during this process of change, we think that a presidential story oversimplifies the picture. The Presidency could run well ahead of Congress at key points, as it did in 1972. But it could also crash back behind it in short order, as it did just four years later. And it could suggest a modest Republican decline, for example from 1988 to 1996, when Congress was showing a strong Republican advance.
Worse yet, an analysis that privileges the presidency risks suggesting that political change was a product, not of fundamental shifts within the social base for partisan politics, but rather of an institutional - a constitutional - dynamic. We think it makes more sense to look on the presidency as reflecting the potential for both growth and retreat, and Congress as representing, "the base" beyond which neither was likely to be consolidated in the long run.
[page 169] IF the focus were not on the longer-term role of the Wallace candidacy, it would be possible to say the same thing in even more provocative fashion. First, the Republican candidate for President in 1968, Richard Nixon, did better in districts carried by Lyndon Johnson (the Democrat) in 1964 than by Barry Goldwater (the Republican): 46 percent versus 30 percent. In that sense, if anyone was a "bridge" to Republicanism in 1968, it was Johnson, not Goldwater. Likewise, if the fosuc were instead on the shape of the partisan world in the longer run, then Ronald Reagan, the Republican Candidate for President in 1980, still did far better among districts carried by Richard Nixon in 1968 than those carried by Barry Goldwater in 1964: 93 percent versus 61 percent. If there was a lasting impact from earlier Republican successes, it came by way of Nixon, not Goldwater - which is unsurprising if further Republicanism was to be built on class rather than race.
BTW, here is a peer reviewed article that denounces the idea, http://miranda.revues.org/2243, Michelle Brattain, Foretting the South and the Southern Strategy (Published in Miranda, author is Department Chair of History at Georgia State University)
Wrapped up in this narrative of party realignment is the most “modern” article of faith behind Southern exceptionalism: the Republican “Southern strategy.” Richard Nixon and his advisors, the story goes, stole a page from the Goldwater and Wallace playbooks and wooed white Southern voters into the Republican party with appeals to festering racial resentments.
... Thus contributors to The Myth of Southern Exceptionalism frequently turn their gaze elsewhere—reminding us not only that whites rioted against housing integration in Pennsylvania, but that segregation (of the Chinese) existed out west, and that NY prisons could be as brutal as Mississippi's notorious Parchman Farm. ... To those who are tempted to draw a straight line from Goldwater, through Wallace, to Nixon and beyond as evidence of Republicans manipulating white Southerners through carefully coded appeals to their racism, the new critics of Southern exceptionalism point to other, less-well-known forces working at the grassroots of Southern politics and culture—namely, moderation. This was true, as historian Joseph Crespino shows, even in the “most Southern place on earth”: Mississippi. ... By 1970, Lassiter argues, white Southerners preferred moderate policies and candidates who employed a language of abstract principles over open defiance and political extremists—a lesson that Nixon learned the hard way. One of the few “genuine” incarnations of the Southern strategy, Lassiter argues, was Nixon's decision in the 1970 midterm elections to lend his support to the Southern Republican candidates who represented the most extreme racial backlash to court-ordered school desegregation and busing. In theory (Kevin Phillip's theory to be precise) such a strategy would have hastened Southern partisan realignment. However, centrist Democrats triumphed over race-baiting Republicans in several key gubernatorial and Congressional elections. ... The national success of Nixon's appeal to middle-class whites who disdained social engineering in the name of racial equality is an extraordinarily important historical insight that challenges myths about American racial innocence. The similarity of white responses to busing across regions, for example, and the hypocrisy of Hubert Humphrey and other non-Southern Democratic liberals who resisted the application of integrationist remedies in their own backyards has newly exposed the emptiness of distinctions between de jure and de facto segregation (Crespino 178-180).
And another book that doesn't agree... Matthew Lassiter, "The Silent Majority" Princeton University Press. Page 232:
The three-way contest allowed Nixon to stake out the political center, by design and by default, as the respectable choice for middle-class voters who rejected the Great Society liberalism of Hubert Humphrey and the reactionary racial populism of George Wallace. In the first national election in which suburban residents constituted a plurality of the electorate, the Nixon campaign reached out to disaffected blue-collar Democrats but aimed primarily at white-collar Republicans and moderate swing voters in the metropolitan centers of the Sunbelt South and West and the upwardly mobile suburbs of the Midwest and Northeast. Nixon forfeited the African-American vote to the Democratic party and conceded the Deep South to the Wallace insurgency, in recognition that the Goldwater debacle of 1964 had reversed Republican trends in the high-growth states of the Outer South.
Melvin Small, "A Companion to Richard M. Nixon", John Wiley and Sons.
This "Southern Strategy/civil-rights retreat" thesis became the first, and thus the orthodox, interpretation of the administration's policies. It would be sustained in the years immediately after Nixon left office, by two groups of writers. The first were those who used the Vietnam War and the Watergate scandal as their points of reference for understanding Nixon's presidency. ...
This claim that Nixon's policies rested on liberal words and conservative deeds was exactly the opposite of what later scholars would argue.
...
There was other evidence that Nixon was not very interested in civil rights - he devoted ten pages of his nearly 1,100-page memoir to the subject. Yet, what he wrote suggested statesmanship, not sacrificing civil-rights enforcement for southern votes. Nixon expressed "justifiable price" in "peacefully desegregating schools in the South".
Many of Nixon's advisers agreed and emphasized the desegregation of school in their memoirs. "Nixon inherited a dual school system declared unconstitutional fifteen years earlier," the speechwriter Raymond Price noted in "With Nixon, "He quietly engineered its dismantling." With respect to politics, Price reiterated a line used by Nixon, that the administration had no Southern Strategy but a national strategy that included the South and that it had desegregated schools "cooperatively rather than punitively". In Before the Fall, another speechwriter, William Safire, described the president's approach to desegregation as genuinely moderate and extremely skillful - a policy of "make-it-happen, but don't make it seam like Appomattox."
...
In Nixon Reconsidered, Joan Hoff warned against "aprincipled behavior by purely ambition-driven politicians" in the United State, with its toxic mix of powerful government and superficial "media politics." In this setting, Nixon was no worse and , according to Hoff, a bit better in terms of what he achieved than other recent chief executives. She even insisted that, "most of his lasting achievements are in domestic, rather than foreign, affairs." Civil rights was a case in point. In a rejoinder to the orthodox school, Hoff defended Nixon's record as superior to that of Dwight D. Eisenhower, JFK and LBJ during the 1950s and as better than any candidate he ran against, save Hubert Humphrey in 1968. She dismissed Nixon's Southern Strategy as "short-lived"; praised his effective, albeit, "reluctant," desegregation of Southern schools; noted that it was Nixon, not Kennedy or Johnson, who put the "bite" into affirmative action; and chronicled the administration's efforts to expand opportunities for women, especially with respect to employment, despite the fact that Nixon's support of the Equal Rights Amendment was never terribly strong.
[some important points here]
The scholarly literature on the Nixon administration and civil rights has evolved in two directions. At one level , early students of this presidency established an orthodox interpretation of his policies , one that stressed the administration's conservatism and shortcomings in pursuit of a "Southern Strategy." As time passed, and as documentary evidence became available and passions cooled, scholars revised this argument and depicted the Nixon administration's civil-rights policies as complex, in terms of motivation, accomplishment, and affect. At another level, understanding of specific aspects of Nixon's rights policies has deepened , as they became the subjects of articles, book chapters, and monographs. As a result, the historiography on this subject has reached a high level of maturity and sophistication . And, yet, much remains to be studied.
So what is the bar to show that the "southern strategy" was an appeal to racism? Is being anti-bussing racism or people who feel like they put their tax dollars into their local school and they don't want to pay for kids who's parents didn't pay the local taxes to attend nor do they want their kids sent to a distant school? If we think Nixon's plan was to use racist policies can we point to any under his watch? Part of the Southern Stategy wiki article talks about the impact of the "strategy". The sources I've cited generally disagree with the idea of a southern strategy. They don't argue that some things said or done by the administration were based on race but if that is the standard do we really think any campaign is 100% clear? They also argue that the overall objective was to play the middle ground. The articles are far stronger in their idea that it was the average southern voter who's views were better represented by the Republicans and less by an increasingly progressive Democratic party that was the real cause of the shift. Hence any discussion of the "Southern Strategy" would, if they are correct, reach the conclusion that the strategy had at best a minimal impact.
Regardless, there is a clear body of evidence that does not support the telling in the current Wiki. I'm not saying the wiki needs to be changed to this version of events, only that we have enough to state this version of events should be included. -- Getoverpops ( talk) 04:18, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
At this point I think it would be best to move on to the next part of this process where we discuss what changes can be made within the article. -- Getoverpops ( talk) 11:19, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
At Heartland Institute and editor has moved a number of incidents to the start of the article before the section describing the position of the organisation and the various views on that. The reasoning is that there are more citations about the incidents than there are about the general organisation and its position. On the talk page objections were aired by myself and another editor at Talk:The_Heartland_Institute#Layout_of_the_page, however they just ignored continued complaints after giving their initial reason and then reverted a change back.
Does weight mean that the sections of an article should be arranged according to coverage irrespective of logical development? Dmcq ( talk) 21:01, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
diff shows page with the incidents in a lower section and current shows it with the sections 1.1 February 2012 document misappropriation, 1.2 Call for US House ethics investigation, and 1.3 May 2012 billboard campaign before the position section. Dmcq ( talk) 21:07, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Thank you. Hugh ( talk) 23:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Surely there are some people look at this noticeboard that can give an opinion on how much NPOV and WEIGHT should dictate the ordering of sections in an article? That was the grounds for the reordering of the article before this talk about a style guide above. Or are the grounds now really based on a style guide and I should have raised an RfC? I asked Hugh which they would prefer but they wouldn't answer and now it's raised here they've changed their grounds. Dmcq ( talk) 11:24, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
There's no global guideline on article structure, but I think the guiding principle should be comprehensibility. As such, general information should precede specifics, and facts should precede analysis. The most noteworthy aspects of a topic should be in the lede, but beyond that don't need to quash other encyclopedic information in the article. Rhoark ( talk) 02:39, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Please join the discussion at Category talk:Opposition to same-sex marriage over a proposal to remove it from the supercategory Category:Discrimination against LGBT people. Arguments against include the statement that the category has a subcategory of LGBT opponents of same-sex marriage or that the word discrimination connotes an opinion, while arguments in favor include the statement that it is verifiable, neutral, and defining, or that the sexual orientation of the opponents would not change a discriminatory character of their views. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 21:54, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Hi, I hope this is the right way to go about this:
I came across Mark Ghuneim a while ago. To me, it read like a puff PR piece with gratuitous name-dropping of famous artists signed to Sony and other off-topic material about the companies he's worked for that seemed seriously adverty. Since these companies each have their own articles, it seems that such material should be covered there rather than seemingly conflating the article about an executive or founder. I've tried to clean it up but my attempts have been reverted more than once.
The main author of this article has denied any COI, but has already been caught lying about ownership of a photo of the subject. Between the lying, the tenacious ownership of this article and a pattern of editing primarily celebrity tech execs, I'm finding a lack of connection highly unlikely. It certainly gives the appearance of a COI for this editor.
At this point, it seems the main author seems to object to any changes including the addition of maintenance templates like {{
advert}}
and {{
coi}}
.
[18] The editor believes that I have
some sort of personal vendetta and has gone as far as telling me not to edit the article
[19]. At this point, I'd prefer NOT to edit the article, but I think it still needs to be cleaned up.
I've opened a discussion on the talk page but since nobody else is participating, it's not going anywhere. I'd appreciate additional folks commenting on the talk page and/or active editing.
Thanks. The Dissident Aggressor 23:09, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I want to solicit my view whether the (1) mention, and (2) way of mention, of the group Momoiro Clover Z in articles Music of Japan and J-pop, as well of the artist Kyary Pamyu Pamyu in the J-pop article, is not appropriate under WP:STRUCTURE, WP:WEIGHT, WP:BALANCE, WP:GEVAL.
I already held the user's talk page discussion in February ( 1), February-April ( 2) and April ( 3 and 4). The users Anosola ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Moscow Connection ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) do not understand, do not accept or intentionally ignore my warnings about the violation of the NPOV principles. If perhaps my understanding is wrong, then fully accept it and apologize for interference. The exceptional information and image of Momoiro Clover Z was first included by Anosola on 28 July 2013 ( [20]) at J-pop article, and 29 July 2013 ( [21]) at Music of Japan article. The mention and inclusion of Momoiro Clover Z at Music of Japan with reason was dismissed on 14 August 2013 ( [22]). However, on 5 September 2013 ( [23]) user Anosola reverted the information (see with "Next edit →" two following edits), and by "Add the explanation", to substantiate evidence for support of group inclusion, just further described groups characteristics and cited one survey according which Momoiro Clover Z "attracts the highest interest level of all the female idol groups in Japan". The same J-pop edit already featured the survey, and with it was claimed how "is one of the most successful" ( [24]), and removed the generally accepted claim "Starting from 2010, idol groups such as AKB48 and Arashi have gained a huge popularity across the country, and both groups dominated the Oricon charts in 2011 and 2012" ( [25]). On 5 May 2014 user Anosola added the second survey to substantiate the inclusion ( [26]).
The idol group Momoiro Clover Z is (just) one of many female idol groups in Japan, which by characteristics is not special or more noteworthy than the others. It is a music act which according Discography, and the TOP 50 records (albums/singles) yearly sales lists from 2010 until 2014 had only one (!) record (2013, #22 album) in the TOP 50 album and single (2010), album and single (2011), album and single (2012), album and single (2013), album and single (2014), and by sales compared to countless others music acts is unworthy of exceptional mention or it's image, besides the listing among popular female idol groups in the 2010s. The other music act, Kyary Pamyu Pamyu, is also exceptional mention, it did not gain international popularity worthy of mention, and the claim is substantiated with Katy Perry and Ariana Grande tweets, according which it is noteworthy and became "internationally popular" single because Katy Perry and Ariana Grande tweeted about it?!
Both articles, Music of Japan and J-pop, follow the "sales" as pattern (WP:STRUCTURE) by which each music act is noteworthy (WP:WEIGHT), and according their prominence is also included an image (WP:BALANCE). Isn't using characteristics unworthy of mention and two surveys or tweets making false balance (WP:GEVAL), compared to sales breaking "Balancing aspects" according which "should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to the weight of that aspect" ( WP:BALASPS), the tweets and only two surveys quite biased sources, and breaking (especially as is not a music act generally worthy of mention in the Music of Japan article) already mentioned NPOV principles?
Problem with the articles is that they are not in a good condition and over time not many users majorly edited them. I even done a edit ( [27]) where the exceptional mention of Momoiro Clover Z in the two surveys stayed, but it was reverted by Anosola because of personal reasons (I suspect is fan of the group), and wants the image of Momoiro Clover Z in the article. He considers that a group is the most popular because two certain surveys says so, and vague term 「特典商法」 which is totally irrelevant for the article. The user Moscow Connection tried to make a false balance listing music reviews, or YouTube views, while in the same statement contradicted self, not only by views, but as the most Japanese music acts have very strict policy about the copyright, especially the contract with YouTube.
Wikipedia is a site intended to host encyclopedic material, and since is not a website for promotion or propagation, I removed or edited their mention several times, and in the exact several times the mention was reverted and received the threat of edit-warring over unnotable music act, unnotable in extent of mention or for the specific article.-- Crovata ( talk) 23:50, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
For future reference: [54]. (Just in case it starts all over again.) -- Moscow Connection ( talk) 00:35, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
HOUSEKEEPING NOTE - This is part of a debate at Talk:Anthony Watts (blogger) which spilled over to other threads including
We can use some more watchful eyes on Anthony Watts (blogger). The key issue in dispute is whether Watts should be described as a "skeptic" or a "denier". According to WP:WTW, the term "denier" should only be used if it's widely used by reliable sources. According to a random sampling of 10 reliable sources (including peer-reviewed journals), the vast majority used the term "skeptic":
These were the first 10 reliable sources randomly selected by Google. One could reasonably argue whether 10 sources is an adequate sample size (if so, just ask, and I can expand the sample size). But based on these results, sources refer to Watts or his blog as:
I also performed a random sampling (as selected by Google) of sources not behind a paywall in Google Scholar, and here are the results:
Google Scholar Totals:
According to WP:WTW, the term "denier" should only be used if it's widely used by reliable sources. Based on two completely different random samplings of reliable sources, it seems pretty apparent that the overwhelming majority of sources don't use the term "denier". In fact, the total number is actually zero, let alone a wide majority. However, some editors editors are pointing to a single source, [55] by an otherwise prominent and respected climatologist who uses the term "denier" as evidence that this term is widely used by reliable sources. According to Wikipedia guidelines, the term "denier" should only be used if it's widely used by reliable sources. A single source, or small subset of sources is not a majority. I should also mention that the two subjects have criticized (Watts and Mann) each other so neither is an independent, source about the other. In any case, the key issue is this: What do the majority of reliable sources say about the matter? A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 23:22, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
We still have editors edit-warring WP:BLP violations back in the article. A handful of volunteers is not enough. Can we please get more uninvolved editors to add Anthony Watts (blogger) to their watchlist? A Quest For Knowledge ( talk) 22:50, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
The Jesus article has a section called Life and teachings in the New Testament. If it were a secular section, it would not follow the Christian canon. In particular, secular scholars put the Gospel of John in a separate category from the other three Christian gospels, the "synoptics." Additionally, scholars emphasize the differences among the gospels. Instead, the section takes the Christian approach of conflating all four gospels into a single story. This approach is precisely the one that secular scholars, such as Bart Ehrman, warn us against. After months of discussion, no proponent of the current version could name a secular, tertiary, reliable source that treats the topic this way, and, after discussing options, other editors encouraged me to move forward with edits. I started removing references to John, since secular scholars don't consider it to be a meaningful source for the life of Jesus. Then I got reverted. Here's the diff: [57]
There is more than one possible way to fix this page, but certain editors want to preserve the Christian approach to the topic. That's understandable, but not appropriate for WP. I don't much care how the article gets fixed, but I would sure love some support form other editors who say that maintaining a Christian POV isn't right. Thanks in advance. Jonathan Tweet ( talk) 02:16, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
There are plenty of Christian scholars doing good scholarly work in this field. As to insisting on a particular treatment, I'm happy to treat this topic any which way, provided it's a way that a mainstream, secular, reliable, tertiary source treats it. I've suggested two or three ways, and it's the other editors who insist on this one, single way. We are here on this board because the people who want to maintain the current formant can't name a source as our model to follow. Every source I find treats the topic differently. In addition, Bart Ehrman specifically calls out the current format as Christian POV: conflating the gospels into one story. So, should we treat this topic one of the ways that RSs treat it? Or should we treat it the way a contingent of editors wants to treat it? Again, your opinion is welcome, but can you show us a source? Jonathan Tweet ( talk) 14:34, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Here's why I keep talking about tertiary sources: "Reliable tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources, and may be helpful in evaluating due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other." Years ago, I'm the one that added that final clause to this policy. On this topic, primary and secondary sources are in vast disagreement, and the topic is so big that broad summaries are useful. Jonathan Tweet ( talk) 13:51, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Any further help on this discussion would be appreciated. We are at a deadlock. I continue to insist that the section entitled "Jesus in the New Testament" should be about Jesus in the New Testament - his portrayal in that text, free of historical and secular criticism, so that such historical and secular criticism can then, in subsequent sections, be contrasted against the Biblical portrayal and better understood. Omitting or introducing criticism into this portrayal does a disservice to those readers who are not familiar with the Biblical story - which is critical to understanding all facets and history of Christianity - as well as those who wish to better understand historical and secular criticism. I further am not persuaded that a NPOV synopsis of a POV account needs to have a POV tag, as Jonathan Tweet insists. Any position contrary to mine will require major reworking not just of the Jesus page, but of every page WP has for every major religious figure: this issue is not limited to Jesus, even if that's where Jonathan Tweet has chosen to fight. Jtrevor99 ( talk) 18:52, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
There has been discussion in the past ( Talk:Terry Richardson) over the contentious issue of the photographer Terry Richardson's allegations of sexual misconduct. (None of which have been allegations of non-consensual behaviour, but rather suggesting he has used his 'influence' to convince models to do things they might otherwise not have done.) In recent history the editor has been engaging in WP:Disruptive Editing behaviour (and seems to have a history in doing this on other articles as well). We could use more voices in this discussion. Thanks. CaffeinAddict ( talk) 19:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
CaffeinAddict while accusing others of disruptive editing, please answer the points made on the talk page. The issue of my last edit has simply been having a subheading, that reflects the content written by and supported by other editors. Why do you disagree with having the subheading? Multiple editors on the talkpage have supported this. And I was following points made by editors on the talkpage. Subheadings make the content easy to navigate.
As for the content itself, it was introduced by other editors, and to me much (although perhaps not all of it) of it looks like it reflects WP:V and WP:RS (published in mainstream sources such as The Guardian). So I would add my voice to the multiple others who supported its inclusion on the talkpage, over a period of years (although we can surely add additional and/or better sources for it) Avaya1 ( talk) 00:00, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
This has been cited at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#John Carter and Ret.Prof |
THE PROBLEM: is that nobody knows when the Gospel of Matthew was written, as it is undated. Many scholars such as France 2007 p19 believe it was composed around 85CE. Others state it may have been written as early as 50 CE. See REF1, REF2, , REF3, REF4, REF5 REF6, REF7 Reference books such as The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible, 2010 simply state that scholars have set the time anywhere between 50 and 115.
MAURICE CASEY: who is one of the world's leading Biblical scholars published Jesus of Nazareth in 2010. This work came down in favour of the 50-60 CE date. Then several months ago Casey published Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths? 2014 which laid out the the scholarly argument for his position. See pp 93 ff
THE SPECIFIC CHANGE BEING PROPOSED: See Diff 1 Diff 2
DEBATE: GOSPEL OF MATTHEW (talk) - NPOV dispute and edit warring.
CLARIFICATION NEEDED: Is the deletion of the early 50 CE date a violation of WP:NPOV? Also can a number of editors form a "consensus that policies regarding NPOV do not apply" to this article? If so in what circumstances? - Ret.Prof ( talk) 00:06, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
If anything, considering the history of the OP here, the most likely policy and guideline considerations involved here would be WP:TE and WP:POV, and, I suppose some might say WP:NOTHERE might apply as well. NPOV is unfortunately, as I think you have probably been told repeatedly already, not the only rule which we have to follow. WP:NPOV specifically includes the section regarding WP:WEIGHT, and as per that aspect of the policy in question we also have to deal with the matter of how much regard any given academic opinion in a field in which there exist a huge number of academic opinions should receive. I very strongly suggest that you perhaps more thoroughly familiarize yourself with that aspect of the policy. We cannot by definition give prominence to all the minority opinions in a field in which there are a huge number of minority opinions. Nor can we give prominence to the opinions of what are, so far as I can tell, non-notable belief systems whose beliefs are substantially at odds with the prevailing academic opinions and opinions of the more notable belief systems in those specific areas. I would welcome input from @ Ian.thomson:, @ In ictu oculi:, and @ Andrevan: regarding whether they think this matter might be better and perhaps more finally resolved at ANI. John Carter ( talk) 00:45, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
There appears to be about 20 secondary sources and 10 tertiary sources that support Casey's 50 CE date for the completion of the Gospel of Matthew. I propose a compromise based on:
These are trusted and up to date tertiary sources. My compromise proposal is as follows:
The date of the Gospel of Matthew has been set anytime between 50 and 115 CE. The 85 CE date remains the most widely supported.
This is just a proposal and I welcome further input - Cheers Ret.Prof ( talk) 15:26, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
I have carefully reviewed the arguments made at the GOSPEL OF MATTHEW (talk), DSN and on this talk page. I think we are in much better shape! Indeed we appear to have reached consensus as to the following:
Most scholars believe the Gospel of Matthew was composed between 80 and 90 CE, with a range of possibility between 70 to 110 CE.
Most scholars believe the Gospel of Matthew was composed between 80 and 90 CE, with a range of possibility between 50 to 110 CE.
To simply acknowledge the possibility of the 50 CE date is very, very little weight. One the other hand to deny the possibility of the 50 CE date is not supported by the scholarship and would mislead the reader in regards to the 50 reliable sources that put forward the 50 CE date.
We seem very very close to a resolution. Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 03:05, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
The problem with Ret.Prof's proposal:
Most scholars believe the Gospel of Matthew was composed between 80 and 90 CE, with a range of possibility between 50 to 110 CE.
is that he provides no source for it - i.e., no citation saying that "most scholars believe" that there's a range of possibility "between 50 to 110 CE." We always need sources. So I propose a slightly different wording:
[Most scholars believe the earliest possible date for the Gospel of Matthew is 70 CE, and that it was probably composed between 80 and 90 CE.
This can be sourced to Duling's article in the Blackwell Companion to the New Testament, published 2010 and a very reliable source. It also has the advantage of giving Casey's view it's proper weighting. PiCo ( talk) 06:19, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Excellent points. As you know I have used Blackwells many times in the past and this source reflects my thinking on the topic. I personally support Dunn and believe the Oral Tradition remained strong until the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE. H. Patrick Glenn Legal, Traditions of the World, Oxford University Press, 2007. pp 94 - 97 Therefore the earliest Gospels would not have come into existance until that date and the Gospel of Matthew could not have been completed until 85 CE - Ret.Prof ( talk) 15:38, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
It was not appropriate for @ StAnselm:, as an involved editor, to hat a request for dispute resolution. This is apparently something that has been discussed previously, but not at this noticeboard. I'll note that an attempt at dispute resolution closed unsuccessfully with a recommendation to look for clarification at other noticeboards [63]. Some of the diffs above discuss the possibility of an RfC, but I don't see that it actually happened. Whatever relevant discussion has taken place, it should be linked here for the benefit of the uninvolved. Consensus can change, and local consensus cannot override project-wide policy like NPOV. If it is shown that prior discussion did address all policy-based concerns and that this is a tendentious filing, appropriate consequences can be considered at that point. Editors will kindly avoid premature unilateral threats of punishment. Rhoark ( talk) 04:50, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
The threats of being banned, the many many personal attacks, the false accusations etc etc. are not appropriate to this notice board. Furthermore , being followed around and harassed has made it impossible for me to edit. Therefore I am stepping back from Wikipedia and will take an extended break until I figure out what to do next. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 20:03, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
The discussions both at my talk page, User talk:Robert McClenon, and here show differently ugly behavior by two editors, User:John Carter (JC) and User:Ret.Prof (RP). On the one hand, JC, in addition to making arguments that are at least plausible for tendentious editing by RP, is engaging in the repeated personal attack of claiming that there are competency issues, and is repeatedly threatening to file reports at ANI. There is nothing in the discussions of the date of the Gospel of Matthew that in any way suggests a lack of basic competency. Disagreement with the majority of editors, and the proposal of views that are considered fringe by scholarship, may be single-purpose editing, and may be fringe editing, but it is not a lack of competency, a criterion that is more applicable to editors who have difficulty with logic or with the English language, which RP does not. On the other hand, RP does have a record of repeatedly running away when challenged, and of stating that he plans to take extended breaks, a form of editorial cowardice that neither serves him well nor serves Wikipedia well; all that it does is to permit him to introduce issues that do not get resolved, only so that they can be brought up again later as never resolved. One of RP's edit summaries accused JC of bullying him. While the allegations of wikistalking, wikihounding, and wikibullying are far more often used wildly and irresponsibly in content disputes or to cover one's own conduct than used correctly, there is some validity here. Neither editor is behaving in a constructive way. Several months ago a discussion at the dispute resolution noticeboard was closed as failed with the recommendation that consensus could be sought by a Request for Comments. A Request for Comments would still be a better idea than either continued unresolved discussion or the talk of going to ANI or arbitration. (I will note that arbitration often does not work well for editors who have previously been sanctioned in arbitration.) The issue about neutral wording of scholarly disagreement about the date of Matthew is not being helped by the behavior of either JC or RP. An RFC should still be considered as to what is appropriate wording. Robert McClenon ( talk) 21:23, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I have carefully read the suggestions of Guy and OP. I agree! - Ret.Prof ( talk) 03:37, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
These many supposed deficiencies of Ret.Prof include being an "incompetent editor who pushes fringe", "rudeness","disruptive editing", "POV pushing", "Tendentious editing", "taking breaks", "single-purpose editing", "running away", "being nonsensical to the point of incomprehensibility", "editorial cowardice", "not behaving in a constructive way", "arrogance" "being woefully illogical", "problematic edits" and "Self-aggrandizement" to the point of "being truly bizarre. Indeed he is not a "real professor" and is the kind of vexatious editor who drives away good editors" Thus he is "no longer welcome" to edit at Wikipedia.
In the article on the Gospel of Matthew 70 to 110 CE is the stated range for the date of composition. A date earlier than that is precluded as a possibility.
The lede presently notes that there is minority support for a pre-70 date, which I believe is the condition that was sought.
Rhoark (
talk) 21:27, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
{{Request close}}