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Ancient Egyptian race controversy ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has always been a contentious article. The main background is that as the top of the article says, "This article is about the "history of the controversy" about the race of the ancient Egyptians. For discussion of the scientific evidence relating to the race of the ancient Egyptians, see Population history of Egypt." but editors ignore this and use it as a vehicle to push their pov.
One problem is the use of block quotes to highlight an editor's favorite ideas (they were all removed from the article some time ago for this reason0. One new editor, already blocked once for edit-warring, insists on using block quotes for quotations he views as important. One of the quotes, from an encyclopedia on Ancient Egypt, is only 25 words long, so wouldn't qualify for block quotes even if it was appropriate to use them. It's also sourced as though it was written by Donald Redford although everyone now agrees that isn't the case. The other is much longer and is clearly being used to push a pov.
Another perennial problem is the attempt by editors from all povs to have the article state what the position of a group of scholars, that something is agreed broadly, etc - which is never easy to do and here often based on faulty sources. The introduction to the section Ancient Egyptian race controversy#Black African hypothesis has been removed and replaced and so far as I can see is not backed by the sources and is the site of the large block quote. The first sentence reads "It is now recognized by mainstream academia that anti-black racism played a key role in the development of the understanding of ancient Egypt in the Westernized world". The one source I can clearly read is a New York Times article [1] and the editor replacing this says it is backed by the archaeologist Emberling. Emberling is quoted as having written "“We now recognize that populations of Nubia and Egypt form a continuum rather than clearly distinct groups,” Mr. Emberling writes, “and that it is impossible to draw a line between Egypt and Nubia that would indicate where ‘black’ begins.” Even if 3 sources were enough to establish what is recognised by mainstream academia, what Emberling says doesn't back the sentence. The edit summary reinstating this also notes it is backed by Jennifer Chi in the same article, although the only mention of Chi is in the sentence "In one of his catalog essays the archaeologist Geoff Emberling, who conceived the show along with Jennifer Chi of the institute, examines some of these historical errors." The Keita paper (copyvio link to a pdf) says "Earlier studies interested in ascertaining population relationships usually examined the data from a "racial" perspective." and I'd be happy to have that used if attributed. I don't know what the Oxford Encyclopedia actually says.
Note that I think that the statement is probably accurate, but that we should be attributing statements to authors and not using a huge block quote to drive home a point.
This should apply no matter what the pov. The editor adding the above removed some material that said something was believed broadly -- see the discussion at Talk:Ancient Egyptian race controversy#Mokhtar and Snowden where I checked the sources and agreed they didn't support the statement.
There are I'm sure other NPOV issues in the article, but I think the main ones have revolved around the use of images and block quotes and attempts to show general positions without adequate sourcing. This article really needs help (I won't even start with the spin-off articles from this one, life's too short). Dougweller ( talk) 06:25, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
The citation which supports the opening sentence in my contributions from the NYtimes article reads:
More recently, our own Western prejudices — namely the idea that geographic Egypt was not a part of “black” Africa — have contributed to the dearth of knowledge about Nubia. The early-20th-century archaeologist George Reisner, for instance, identified large burial mounds at the site of Kerma as the remains of high Egyptian officials instead of those of Nubian kings. (Several of Reisner’s finds are in the show, reattributed to the Nubians.)
In one of his catalog essays the archaeologist Geoff Emberling, who conceived the show along with Jennifer Chi of the institute, examines some of these historical errors.
“We now recognize that populations of Nubia and Egypt form a continuum rather than clearly distinct groups,” Mr. Emberling writes, “and that it is impossible to draw a line between Egypt and Nubia that would indicate where ‘black’ begins.”
KAREN ROSENBERG, Partnerships and Power Shifts Between Two Mighty Lands,.
The source above is clearly attributing the denial of the black racial grouping of the ancient Egyptians to "western prejudice", which is something that Doug must have forgot to include in his description (along with the link to the article).
The next source which supports my opening sentence in my contributions is from leading bio-anthropologist/geneticist S.O.Y. Keita:
There has long been a discussion about the origins of the inhabitants of the ancient northem Nile valley. Probably for many reasons the discussion has focused on the “Africanity” of the ancient “Egyptian” populations. “Africanity” has been frequently inappropriately defined. Specifically, there has been a question about the degree or presence of “Negro” influence (e.g., Diop 1974; Robertson 1978; Robertson and Bradley 1979; Bemal 1987). “Negro” has been used to mean different things. Frequently earlier writers displayed a bias against “Negroes,” “Blacks,” and “Africans,” although the terms have been used in many ways—consistency has not been a strong point. Many would deny that prejudice had any role in the extreme concem about the “origins” of the Egyptians, but Morton’s comments at least are clear: “...civilization...could not spring from Negroes, or from Berbers and never did. . .” (quoted in Nott and Gliddon 1854). “Berbers” in this instance probably means Nubian. On the other hand Gilman (1982) reports the strong esthetic bias of Winckelmann, an eighteenth-century scholar, against Egyptians be- cause of their phenotypic “blackness.” Thomson and Randall-Maclver (1905:110) noted the prejudice in the early twentieth century.
S.O.Y. Keita, S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa .
homestead. com/keita-1993. pdf
Keita clearly demonstrates through words of 20th century scholars (throughout the entire study), that anti-black racism was the root of this entire "controversy". This source from a person who is considered an "authority" on the bio-culture origins of ancient Egypt backs my contribution.
The last source presented which supports the opening sentence in my contributions in the section in question is from the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt 2001 ( Donald Redford)
"The race and origins of the Ancient Egyptians have been a source of considerable debate. Scholars in the late and early 20th centuries rejected any considerations of the Egyptians as black Africans by defining the Egyptians either as non-African (i.e Near Easterners or Indo-Aryan), or as members of a separate brown (as opposed to a black) race, or as a mixture of lighter-skinned peoples with black Africans. In the later half of the 20th century, Afrocentric scholars have countered this Eurocentric and often racist perspective by characterizing the Egyptians as black and African....."
Donald Redford, The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Volume 3, p. 27-28 .
These sources have been presented to Doug throughout the talk page. For some reason this moderator has a major problem with the clear fact that one theory on this page of theories has more scholarly support than others. In this case how can you "balance" out the support for theories which are clearly debunked with the one which clearly has the support of mainstream academia? It has been brought up by several other people throughout this talk page that the moderator Doug has an emotional attachment to certain notions and blatant prejudice towards others, and he attempts to reflect this in the article. This is not helpful towards the article as it is not truthfully informing visitors to this page of the contemporary viewpoints of mainstream academia, which is based on sold evidence from multiple scientific disciplines. Asante90 ( talk) 08:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Stemming from his prejudice against the "black African" theory for ancient Egypt's origin, Doug objects to almost any new contribution to that section the article. One famous quote from 18th century French scholar Constantin-François Chassebœuf which directly deals with the relevance of this section of the article has been put in a block quote. Doug objects to this, because according to him block quotes are "bad". Two days ago I contributed to this section the views (which are consistent with reviews from scholars on the Amazon page for the book) expressed from the recent publication "Black Genesis" written by best selling author Robert Bauval. Bauval's book is basically stating that the Egyptian civilization derived from earlier advanced black ancient Saharan communities. Bauval bases this on conclusive anthropological and archaeological evidence. Doug objects to the inclusion of these statements because he considers it "fringe", but he himself could not point out on the talk page what exactly was fringe about those very statements. He then removed the statements. Asante90 ( talk) 08:25, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
“ | It is now recognized by mainstream academia that anti-black racism played a key role in the development of the understanding of ancient Egypt in the Westernized world. | ” |
Emberling and Chi confirm the notions of the Rosenburg (the editor) in Emberling's own direct quote when he states that mainstream academia no longer tries to separate Egypt and Nubia racially as both form a black continuum. At this point Doug you cannot logically be disputing the opening statement that I've added to the Black African hypothesis. Even if you take issue with exactly "who" acknowledged racism in the NYtimes article, you don't dispute the acknowledgement of racism from the S.O.Y. Keita study or from the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt? Those two sources alone are validation enough of my contributing statement.
Doug no one is preventing you or anyone else from block quoting pivotal statement from other theories. The problem that you seem to have is that you don't have any contemporary pivotal statements supporting other theories, and due to your own emotional attachment to this subject you simply don't want it to be acknowledged that one theory has more mainstream support then the others. If block quotes were a problem then block quotes would not be an editing option in wikipedia. The block quoting page does not caution anyone from using this feature, so you have no reason to either. [6]
As far as Robert Bauval goes, I have came to agree with your statements that my additional contributions about his book are a bit much. I say this mostly because his notions of an "advanced" civilization in the Sahara can not be validated by contemporary researchers. His analysis on the archaeology and anthropological evidence however is consistent with mainstream academia.
Yalen you now go on to state that my contributing statement invokes that if you disagree with this that it is rooted in racism . A historical fact is a historical fact! As stated by the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (authoritative) the notions that the ancient Egyptians were migrating Europeans, Hamites (southwest Asian migrants), or a mixture of Hamites and black Africans is Eurocentric and rooted in racism against blacks, and I also have another direct statement from Keita which suggest just that. Now perhaps we use the term that Keita used which is "De-Africanization" rather than "anti-black" but the bases that it was RACISM should not change as it has been cited by authorities to be just that!
Yalen you too (along with Doug) have been irrational in displaying that you cannot accept even the most authoritative conclusions on the issue at hand. You have an issue with everyone of my edits and support even the most ludicrous opinions so long it contradicts the black African hypothesis. You sir are biased and along with Doug have attempted to censor any additional information added which supported the theory that you simply do not like, and that is also apparent and noted on the talk page by several posters. Asante90 ( talk) 18:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
The issue of using modern social labels on ancient peoples tends be brought up when we are dealing specifically with the ancient Egyptians, but never any other peoples. Case and point [7]. The National Geographic's heavily controversial 2008 edition of it's magazine entitled the "Black pharaohs" of the 25th Dynasty had no problem with labeling the ancient Nubians as black. Why then is their a problem with labeling other ancient peoples in a modern context based on widely available and consistent evidence? Censorship claim is what is in dispute now sir. For example in the opening paragraphs of the article the second mention of the black Egypt theory was equated with "black supremacy" and "Afrocentrism" while the true cause of this entire controversy (white supremacy and Eurocentrism) had absolutely no mention. Now why was that the case? Asante90 ( talk) 22:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
For everyone of my major edits I've started a discussion for them, and presented my sources and reasoning for these contributions. No one disputed them on the talk page. I presented each source (s) for each contribution that I've added to the black African Hypothesis section. [8] I corrected the source distortions and blatant fallacies that sat in the modern scholarship section of the main article for who knows how long, and on the talk page I explained piece by piece what the issue was and what needed to be corrected to reflect what the sources actually state. No one has disputed those corrections on the talk page, so I have no clue what you mean by insinuating that I'm impossible to deal with. [9] [10] Asante90 ( talk) 22:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
He (also editing logged out) has replaced the contested material I removed earlier today saying he's proven his case here so he can reinstate it. His edit summary reads "Your dropped your argument in the discussion over both the box quotes and you offered no contest to statements of De'Volney [11] Stop lying!" I had left the Oxford material in, removing the box quote as per our MOS for short quotations and attributing it to its author, Tyson. He's even changed it back to read as though it is by Donald Redford. Besides all the other problems, he has no consensus for this. He says no consensus is required for the block quote and other editors are welcome to add their own block quotes. This is exactly the problem we need to avoid. He says "the most authoritative contemporary source in relation to this article should be given extra attention above." - the problem is, who decides that? If anyone else thinks I've dropped my argument, please let me know so I can fix that. He more or less admits he doesn't have consensus, saying I am "rallying up a of your Klan members to say they don't like it." It doesn't look as though he's going to play nice. :-) Dougweller ( talk) 18:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
This page is not in a NPOV. Efforts to give add any positive descriptions of the organization are often deleted and any efforts to disqualify the criticisms are ignored. Criticisms are fair but where is the praise. The organization in clearly non-partisan by its support from both parties. Its stance on some issues may be controversial but hardly worthy of the edits done to the page. Can anyone contribute to make this page positively? Liberty20036 ( talk) 00:09, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
After several additions of original research (and removal of maintenance tags) by User:Checkin34z ( contribs):
which were reverted by User:Md.altaf.rahman and later myself, and although discussion(s) have taken at User talk:Checkin34z, at User talk:Benzband#Tishma and at User talk:Md.altaf.rahman i don't think we're going to reach an agreement over the article. We would appreciate any input on the matter.
Also i have just drastically edited the article to remove unsourced/inappropriate content. Cheers, benzband ( talk) 19:07, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
An editor as disputed the neutrality of Rape and pregnancy controversies in United States elections, 2012. I am coming here to simply ask for outside opinions on rather the article is written from a neutral point of view. Casprings ( talk) 18:47, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
User:Niteshift36 is repeatedly adding " Juggalos" as a "gang affiliation" on Crips, even though Juggalo is a music fanbase, not a gang. He has repeatedly attacked me for removing this allegation, despite the fact that it very obviously violates WP:NPOV and there is no evidence of any "Juggalo gangs". -- BigBabyChips ( talk) 21:59, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
I invite commentary on neutrality and undue weight issues in the article talk page [23]. Handyunits ( talk) 06:40, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Children in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
For a couple months User_talk:68.6.227.26 has kept adding information about Israeli suffering and about Palestinian ill-doing (including children as terrorists) to the article. He has been civil about adopting to corrective edits (though I haven't even tried to remove some of the WP:Undue on some topics). He just seems insensitive to criticism from another editor earlier on and myself and just keeps adding such material. If someone could just take a quick look and comment on the NPOV issue that might help wake him up more to the issue. Thanks. CarolMooreDC 19:51, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I'd appreciate it if somebody would take a look at the new Derby sex gang article, from the perspective of WP:NPOV - it looks far too tabloid and sensationalist to me, and seems overly-concerned with the ethnic background of the offenders. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 01:07, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Note. I have had to remove individuals not convicted of sexual offences from the table in the article, per WP:BLP policy - and in talk page discussions it is clear that some are arguing that these individuals are part of the 'sex gang', even though the sources cited do not state this.
AndyTheGrump (
talk) 18:41, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Note Can I just remind folks in general to be especially careful on such an inflammatory subject to stay polite and on-topic. -- John ( talk) 21:52, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Is it me, or has this become a long editorial on behalf of not moving a school from one site to another? 99.12.243.171 ( talk) 20:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
The following text appears in the lead:
In central Europe, where most of the schools are located,[2] the Waldorf approach has achieved general acceptance as a model of alternative education.[7]
There is a disagreement ( diff) about the second half of this sentence ("the Waldorf approach ...") in particular whether WP:YESPOV applies and the words (sourced to a book written by a scholar) should be inline attributed, rather than stated in WP's voice. Alexbrn talk| contribs| COI 17:21, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
I've started an AfD (as of Feb 3 relisted), which for reasons I've explained on that page is in need of as many reviews and replies as possible, so please take a look and review it if possible. Some of the issues debated have to do with neutrality of groupings, headings and sources as well as notability other criteria.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:55, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Having come across the title satguru in an article I find that the article seems to say nothing beyond how great a satguru is. I am having no luck finding anything that defines it in a neutral manner, as pretty much everything turns up works ostensibly by or about people proclaimed as satgurus. Mangoe ( talk) 18:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
We could use some eyes on American Community School of Abu Dhabi, see the history. Any extra eyes and hands would probably help, npov, coi, blp and due weight experience would be clear pluses. I'm on holiday myself, so I'm deferring here. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 15:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Someone might want to take a look at this. Created from scratch in one go, "new" editor. Perennial problem topic of course. It seems like a bunch of contentious WP:SYNTH and OR. § FreeRangeFrog croak 18:02, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
1 editor ( Vles1) has accused me of having writing an not neutral Wikipedia article called Criminal cases against Yulia Tymoshenko since 2010. But to the best of my abilities I can not see anything not neutral in it.... Could an not involved party please take a look at this article and point out to me what is wrong with the current article. I did try to write a good neutral article (although I am aware I am no Gogol). — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:54, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I did get\do have the feeling that Vles1 thought there was too much emphasize on the statements by Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych that the cases of Tymoshenko are "non-partisan measures to combat corruption in Ukraine". I think he was concerned that would push the readers into "a certain way of thinking". But I just wanted to give the readers " Both Sides of the Story". (Something I noticed the BBC does not do in there reporting about Tymoshenko; hence) it is not that easy to find good English speaking sources about this subject. But I do believe the sources used in this Wiki-article are reliable. Kyiv Post is usually not the most objective newspaper in the world but all the facts they write about are true. Thanks for your time and efforts; they are appreciated! — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 19:41, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I know... But my knowledge of Ukrainian (or any other East Slavic language) is not really good.... It always takes ages for me to work with sources from Ukraine... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 20:16, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Did do some tweaking in the article once again the last days (stayed closer to the sources), including following up some of your suggestions. I did not put in any stuff from another Wikipedia, and after a brief look (at the Ukr & Rus Wiki counterparts of the same Wiki article) I concluded this seems not to have happened. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 01:35, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, I think you are right; I also had the impression, that because in the current Ukrainian political climate politicians there are always trying to "destroy" there opponents rather then collaborate with them, Vles1 had the impression that I was out here to outfox him (using the article to promote and advocate anti-Tymoshenko views (which I was not)).
Thanks for all your help! If you want you can help to promote the article to a wp:DYK by adding :*[[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] Date, size, hook (ref, neutrality) all seem fine. GTG.~~~~ to/at its nomination page . I always think there are always to many USA-ian DYK's... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 00:29, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Recently an article, Sri Vishnu Teertharu, was moved into the article space after almost a year of work. However, the tone of the article is worthy of concern. It includes wording such as "one of the greatest seers in Hindu religion" and "Jayateerthacharya was all wealthy by God’s grace. At the same time he was so kind in nature...". I would like some advice on how I should treat this article. Thank you. Michaelzeng7 ( talk) 16:20, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Hi folks,
I realize this probably isn't the right place to post this, as it isn't a dispute per se; no substantive edits (barring the recent change that brought me to the page) have been made for literally years (last ones I see are from around 2008); whats more, this entire article is possibly the most transparently biased thing I've ever read. To quote an IP editor (the only person to have ever edited the talk page),
"The tone of this article lacks a certain dispassionate, encyclopaedic quality... phrases like "one of the true Faith", and the end of the second section, reading: The time was ripening for Rome to abandon the East, turn toward the West, and enter into that alliance with the Germano-Romanic nations, on which is based our Western civilization, of which one consequence was the formation of the States of the Church. It would have been easy for the popes to throw off the Byzantine yoke in Central Italy as early as the time of Iconoclasm, but waited wisely until it was clearly establish that the Byzantines could no longer protect the pope and the Romans against the Lombards, and they founnd another power that could protect them, the Frankish kingdom, in the middle of the eighth century. Who was this written by? The PR department at the Vatican would write better, and have a more subtle display of bias..."
Unfortunately, the article is somewhat of a wall of text, and I dcn't have the time or expertise to fix it. It's bad, though...really bad. Almost to the point of being a lost cause; it might be a better idea to delete it and start from scratch! So, why am I posting it here, then? Well, honestly I can't bear to walk away with an article in this poor of condition. If you have a few minutes to spare, mind popping over there and trying to improve it?
Okay, that's all I've to say. Please don't eat me for posting this in the wrong place! Cheers, -Zaldax
I'm a trying-to-be-retired editor, who recently came across a blog-post on this topic's most recent lawsuit. Looked up the Wikipedia article and found this self-describing whitewash.
Contrast this with what one of the sources (who strangely enough were used only for the irrelevant fact that "the company typically limits the initial printing of each title to 300 copies but titles are guaranteed to stay perpetually in print") has to say about it:
Many readers may already be aware of the publishing activities of the Edwin Mellen Press and of the controversy that has arisen concerning the quality of the books which they publish. Those who have not already done so are strongly encouraged to read an account of the publisher's somewhat unusual practices reprinted in the December 9-15, 1993 issue of the newspaper "Campus Review".
Briefly summarised, the reprinted report suggests that this publisher produces what appear to be from their titles to be properly researched, refereed and edited scholarly books but which often prove to contain quite extraordinary gibberish. It is suggested that manuscripts are accepted unread and that proof readers are strongly encouraged not to correct errors.
Edwin Mellen Press uses electrostatic (photocopying) technology and usually prints only 300 copies of any title, but titles are guaranteed to stay perpetually in print. A recent catalogue from the Press promises 450 new titles per year and also makes it clear that academic and research libraries are their target.
By getting their books included in approval plans and publishing nearly all of their books in series to induce standing orders, Edwin Mellen has succeeded in selling some very bad books to many of the world's best libraries.
Monash University Library (MUL) too has purchased many titles from this imprint in good faith. Possibly some of these are quite good scholarly works which were judged to arcane by other publishers. At least one title is on a recommended reading list for an undergraduate course. Nonetheless we cannot but be concerned on reading the allegations in "Campus Review". MUL has no brief as a censor of scholarship, but would be very grateful to hear the opinion of Monash scholars on the value of many Edwin Mellen titles which the Library holds and can supply at least partial lists of these. Contact the Collection Management Librarian, Robert Stafford by telephone on 52613 or email roberts@lib.monash.edu.au
The success of this publisher, who to date has generally confined its interests to the humanities, cannot be separated from the publish or perish syndrome which has long plagued the sciences. In sciences, and indeed the social sciences, one consequence has been ever increasing serials costs to libraries, who have had to develop a range of strategies in response. We would be very pleased to have the advice of the academic community on whether or not we should continue to circulate new title information for this publisher's books. For those who are interested we can also supply copies of a four-page extract from Mellen Books in Print entitled 'how to publish a scholarly book '.
It's quite clear (from this and other sources) that academic librarians regard this publisher below pondscum. I've tried to give WP:DUE to this viewpoint, but it probably needs more nuance, expansion & monitoring, which I won't be around to provide. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:06, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
One suggestion for establishing WP:WEIGHT at Talk:Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute is that WP:WEIGHT and WP:DUE should ideally be established by reference to neutral 3rd party sources to ensure coverage is commensurate with the weight of opinion and prominence is given in proportion to the coverage in the same. Another editor argues that anything that could be sourced should be included and that this could be modified by what he suggests to "add only what we can source with two different reliable sources". I am bringing this here for outside comment as to which of the two suggestions best follows WP:NPOV. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Excuse me Kahastok but your final questions I believe do not sum up the issue quite properly. I'd say: should we be basing the removal or not of a section (or article) or its extension based exclusively on published books or article journals? Or should we also take into consideration the existence of reliable secondary sources (such as newspapers) to make that assessment? My opposition to the "quality standard" attempting to be applied to that section (with the aims of removing it) it's because it would have a devastating effect over a large number of articles in WP if applied as is, and thus it is just not sensible. Reliable secondary sources exist for a reason, not every article can be based (or have the weight of its sections based) on books or journal articles. One only needs to go to some of the articles I've mentioned in the comment above (among many other) to see this. Regards. Gaba p ( talk) 22:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I apologise in advance for repeating myself, the purpose of this section was to get outside comment that WP:WEIGHT can be judged on the basis of requiring that two different sources, primarily newspaper reports, rather than the current community standard in WP:NPOV. Please could I have outside comment, thank you. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Despite considerable discussion at Talk:Ancient Egyptian race controversy about the reliability of Herodotus, the latest edits by Dailey78 ( talk · contribs) leave the discussion of Herodotus's reliability starting with "Scholars, ancient and modern, regard the works of Herodotus as reliable. A.H.L. Heeren quotes Herodotus on nearly every page of his work and provides examples from modern scholarship (source of the Nile, Meroe, etc.) that corroborate Herodotus' claims". This has two sources, Cheikh Anta Diop and Arnold Hermann Ludwig Heeren. This is followed by "Diop also defends the reliability of Herodotus by providing examples of corroboration in modern scholarship,[143][120][119] but Snowden claims that Diop is distorting his classical sources and is quoting them selectively.[144] Many scholars, ancient and modern, regard the works of Herodotus as being unreliable as historical sources.[145][146][147][148][149][150][151][152] The reliability of his writings about Egypt are particularly questioned.[153][154][155][156][157]" which does show that numerous scholars question his reliability. I believe that we need to start by making it clear there is a dispute, citing and attributing those that say he is reliable and then ditto for those who disagree. 'Scholars ancient and modern' is too broad a statement, especially when only 2 people are cited. I'm not convinced that we care that an early 19th century scholar mentions Herodotus on almost every page (and I strongly disagree with the idea expressed at Talk:Black Egyptian Hypothesis that someone writing that long ago can be used to show a "high level of agreement between Herodotus, other ancient historians, and modern archaeologists".
This isn't a huge deal but it's been impossible to work out arguments like these on the respective talk pages. It would be nice to get comments from someone not involved with the article. Dougweller ( talk) 11:17, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Read my original post above.
Rod's current version, which he calls balanced (about 110 words for the Herodotus is reliable position vs 30 for the other), reads:
"Many scholars (Aubin, Heeren, Davidson, Diop, Poe, Welsby, Celenko, Volney, Montet, Bernal, Jackson, DuBois, Strabo), ancient and modern, routinely cite Herodotus in their works on the Nile Valley. Some of these scholars (Heeren, Aubin, Diop, etc.) explicitly mention the reliability of Herodotus' work on the Nile Valley and demonstrate corroboration of Herodotus' writings by modern scholars.[139][117][116] A.H.L. Heeren (1838) quoted Herodotus throughout his work and provided corroboration by scholars of his day regarding several passages (source of the Nile, location of Meroe, etc.).[140] To further his work on the Egyptians and Assyrians, Aubin uses Herodotus' accounts in various passages and defends Herodotus' position against modern scholars. [141] In contrast, many scholars, ancient and modern, regard the works of Herodotus as being unreliable as historical sources.[142][143][144][145][146][147][148][149] " Dougweller ( talk) 06:12, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
And his latest version:
Many scholars (Aubin, Heeren, Davidson, Diop, Poe, Welsby, Celenko, Volney, Montet, Bernal, Jackson, DuBois, Strabo), ancient and modern, routinely cite Herodotus in their works on the Nile Valley. Some of these scholars (Welsby, Heeren, Aubin, Diop, etc.) explicitly mention the reliability of Herodotus' work on the Nile Valley and demonstrate corroboration of Herodotus' writings by modern scholars.[139][117][116] Welsby said that "archaeology graphically confirms some of Herodotus' observations." [140] A.H.L. Heeren (1838) quoted Herodotus throughout his work and provided corroboration by scholars of his day regarding several passages (source of the Nile, location of Meroe, etc.).[141] To further his work on the Egyptians and Assyrians, Aubin uses Herodotus' accounts in various passages and defends Herodotus' position against modern scholars. [142] In contrast, many scholars, ancient and modern, regard the works of Herodotus as being unreliable as historical sources.[143][144][145][146][147][148][149][150] The reliability of his writings about Egypt are particularly questioned.[151][152][153][154][155] Snowden claims that Diop is distorting his classical sources and is quoting them selectively.[156]" I'd like to know which Egyptian observations Welsby is referring to, if any. No one has said that Herodotus was never right so it's not clear why this is here. Dougweller ( talk) 10:00, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Request for comment regarding if chiropractic is a 'health care profession'. Regards, DVMt ( talk) 17:54, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Looking for some unbiased opinions on neutrality and undue weight issue for the lead of NLP in the article talk page Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming. Allisgod ( talk) 00:49, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
(Preface: Really this shouldn't have got this far, as multiple discussions have shown a clear consensus in one direction, but what can you do when users insist on edit-warring tendentiously in service of a POV.)
Maafa 21 is an anti-abortion film (by Mark Crutcher, car salesman turned activist) about the conspiracy theory according to which Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood were formed with the aim of facilitating genocide against black people through birth control and abortion. This WP:FRINGE claim is not remotely supported in the historical scholarship, and Esther Katz (NYU professor and editor of Sanger's papers) has deigned to comment on the film in order to point this out. All our policies not only allow but require that this fact appear in our article, but for the past week or so, users whose love for the film seemingly outweighs their commitment to building an encyclopedia have been edit-warring to remove it from the article, or at best, weakening it to "criticism" from "some people." (While adding rubbish promotional sources, as though volume were a substitute for quality and NPOV.) It's strange to pose this question to the board when the answer is so obvious, but here it is anyway: does NPOV require censoring any mention of the mainstream view in an article on a fringe view?
(Multiple RSN discussions have determined that Katz and other historical scholars are reliable sources on the history of Sanger and PP, while Crutcher is not, and also that our sources (a newspaper which quotes Katz, and material from the MSPP website) are acceptable references for those scholarly views. On the other hand, one user at the article has apparently stated an intention to continue removing the material forever since her own personal interpretation of NPOV overrides everyone else's consensus, so more content noticeboards instead of behavioral boards may be a waste of time, but hope springs eternal.) – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 21:44, 18 February 2013 (UTC) [Edited to add diffs/text – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 01:21, 19 February 2013 (UTC)]
Perhaps if you read the instructions above and actually follow them then somone might be able to focus on your NPOV issue. So far the only diff you presented is a talk page comment that doesn't even say what you are purporting.
little green rosetta
(talk)
central scrutinizer 22:56, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
As an uninvolved editor, this is text that I believe to be neutrally worded:
Interested editors can take this back to the talk page for further discussion. I am going to recommend that an administrator close this thread as further progress is unlikely to occur here at this time. Location ( talk) 02:18, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi all. I've been working to correct factual errors at Flavio Briatore, based on an OTRS ticket. I believe I've reached an outcome that everyone is happy with on every point bar one. The final point is an NPOV issue, so I thought the best solution is to get some outside eyes on it. It concerns the Nelson Piquet Jr quote, the last paragraph of this section. It is a very negative quote with regards to Briatore, made soon after Piquet Jr was sacked. The request is that it is either removed from the article, or balanced with some more positive quotes (I've been sent a few very positive pieces, but haven't seen any that were directly relevent to his skills as an F1 manager).
My thoughts were 1) leave as is or rather 1a) move the quote to the departure section to give it more context or 2) remove it. I'm not keen on adding random quotes to balance things. I'd appreciate any thoughts, alternative solutions or just anyone doing the hard work for me . WormTT( talk) 13:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't know the history here, but I've seen a mistake (I think) that needs correction. The biography states that the USS Ticonderoga was attacked on September 30, 1918. This appears to be in conflict with the citation noted which says the date was October 4, 1918. It's clear from the report that this was not a 5-day battle so one of those dates is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.224.6.26 ( talk) 04:01, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Could someone please review the article on the Louisiana Science Education act, here: [28] The article appears to be written completly from the viewpoint of the small group seeking to repeal the act. Their original version did not Even cover the text of the act or the reasons it was proposed or passed in he first place. I have sought to add some balance to the article by including the purpose of the act, but am facing accusations of 'vandalism' by annonymous ip addresses for having done so. They are claiming that the statements by the bills author made in the legislative hearing are the authors opionion and not indicative of the intended purpose of the act. Pikachudad ( talk) 17:43, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
This article here: [
[29]] has this section:
Basis of name
Khaybar is an oasis approximately 95 miles east of Medina, which was once the largest Jewish settlement in Arabia. The name was chosen as a reminder of the Battle of Khaybar, a battle that took place in 629 between Muhammed and his followers against the Jews who inhabited the settlement.[6]
As I noted on the Talk page [
[30]], the [6] reference "providing 'support' for the explanation of the name given here doesn’t mention the assault rifle at all, is an article slandering Muslims as rabid anti-Semitic jihadists, and is written by someone who authored a book called “The Islamization of America”. It's anti-Muslim hate-speech, and at the very least is NPOV. Worse, from Wikipedia’s perspective, it doesn’t give any evidence the Iranians named their rifle after a massacre […]"
My point is that the article claims the name was specifically chosen as a reminder of a battle against a Jewish tribe (without mentioning the attack was in response to betrayal), when no evidence from anywhere – least of all not from the manufacturers website or the supposedly supporting reference – backup that assertion, and there's a frankly more compelling case to be made for the reference to the well known Shia myth.
Its unwarranted and biased, akin to suggesting something like: "American arms producer, Colt, is named for the horses ridden by the US Cavalry as they slaughtered Native Americans".
I'm not the first to raise this, but the blatant race-baiting remains. Its unwarrantedly partisan: at the least, the alternate explanation should be included.
I am not familiar with Wiki culture, and do not know if I have support for my position: I feel, without any reference that actually explains the verified reason for the choice of the name, the section is pure speculation and should be removed entirely, but I know that simply deleting sections is frowned on. What would be a good way to proceed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.80.171 ( talk) 21:53, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
I have commenced an RfC referencing the appropriateness for inclusion, per WP:NPOV, of a FactCheck.org assertion within the John Kerry military service controversy article. Opinions are solicited from editors who may be both interested and informed in the subject of WP:NPOV. Thank you. JakeInJoisey ( talk) 14:07, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm afraid you are distracting from the issue under discussion again. Please refrain from attacking the OP or changing the subject to what you think of me. If you can't do that, then don't reply. I'm only interested in seeing this issue resolved. If you feel that you have interpersonal issues with other editors, then please seek guidance elsewhere.
Lest the subject of this section be lost in further non-disruptive "asides"... I have commenced an RfC referencing the appropriateness for inclusion, per WP:NPOV, of a FactCheck.org assertion within the John Kerry military service controversy article. Opinions are solicited from editors who may be both interested and informed in the subject of WP:NPOV. Thank you. JakeInJoisey ( talk) 20:50, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi, i asked here last month (to no avail), but now another editor is adding similar unencyclopedic/poorly sourced content and puffery to the Tishma article. history. benzband ( talk) 15:22, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
It has come to my attention that the Wikipedia editor EnochBethany ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has made at least seven recent edits to the Gun politics in Mexico article of which at least five, I believe, are in violation of Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy.
The following is the lists of all seven edits done by EnochBethany to the Gun politics in Mexico article as of the time I am submitting this complain. Highlighted in bold are the exact changes done by EnochBethany which I consider biased/non-neutral:
It appears editor EnochBethany wants to assert to Wikipedia readers that despite the fact that there are laws governing the lawful ownership and possession of firearms in Mexico, there are people who choose to ignore these laws and proceed to own and possess guns illegally. This is true, but the article is a not a forum to rant about how some people choose to break the law in Mexico because lawbreakers exists in all societies, not just Mexico.
Imagine the driver license article stating something somewhere along the lines of: "A driver's license/licence or driving licence is an official document which states that a person may operate a motorized vehicle, such as a motorcycle, car, truck or a bus, on a public roadway. However, one can always ignore the law and chose to drive a vehicle without a driver license or authorization from the government."... The sentence in bold is an example of the style of writing EnochBethany has chosen to let readers know there are those who choose to break firearm law in Mexico.
I was going to proceed and revert all edits done by user EnochBethany that I consider biased/non-neutral but I did not want to fall into an Edit warring & 3RR incident with him or her. I would appreciate if an Administrator would revise my grievances and decide. I suggest that if EnochBethany wants to remind readers of the gun violence and unlawful proliferation of firearms that does exist in Mexico, he/she creates an additional section in the article, similarly to the Gun violence section of the Gun politics in Honduras article. I have informed EnochBethany of this notice. Thank you. -- Usfirstgov ( talk) 11:42, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
A big part of the problem is sourcing and original research. I found:"Of course those who watch Spanish language news have no misconception that criminals commonly carry firearms and kill persons in Mexico, regardless of paper laws. [37] - there is no article at the link that says this. I've left that in for the nonce.
" except for criminals who commonly ignore the law, carry guns, and shoot them wherever and whenever they so choose. [38] - the linked article doesn't say this, the editor is using it as an argument for his edit - this is what we call original research, see WP:NOR.
"except in the common case of criminals who get need no permission from the government, yet carry and use guns quite commonly." (ctrl-click)"> (ctrl-click)"> (ctrl-click)"> </ref> - basically the same thing.
And "As an alternative, a person may choose to ignore the law and privately buy guns and ammunition without regard to the law."
[39] - I've deleted all 3.
Dougweller (
talk) 22:02, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
IMHO wp:npov is just one of the problems with the edits. The others are wp:ver / wp:nor lack of reliable sourcing for the statements as worded, and also unenclyclopedic writing, bordering on being rants. North8000 ( talk) 12:49, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Just reading through this notice made my head spin, but as I see it this is a violation. I believe that the statements made by EnochBethany were opinionated and unwarranted. The sources are a bit on the lighter side (content wise) but yet demonstrate common misconceptions and beliefs about Mexico. It is as if his/her statements are something that could be added to any Wikipedia page and be proven in the way that EnochBethany did. But like I said, his/her sources were not substantial and a bit biased.-- Thepresidenthal ( talk) 16:24, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
References
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I came across this article on the BBC web site which led me to this one then, on a hunch, our article. Is the word enemy, used in our article, a neutral term in this context? -- Senra ( talk) 21:42, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi! At Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#GEO_Group there was an issue over a private prison company trying to scrub its controversies section.
But I heard that it is usually better to have the controversies and praise mixed together throughout the article. How should the criticisms section be re-arranged? WhisperToMe ( talk) 23:14, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Why not include a reference the article on Deadspin? Rather than continue with the on-and-off changes, provide an objective account about this "edit war" happening in the first place, including both critics' and the prison's viewpoints (if they've said anything).
I recently attended a workshop in Kosovo, where I taught student to edit Wikipedia. A number of articles were created, and some of them are now subject to NPoV disputes:
It would be good if they could have some attention from neutral editors, especially these with an understanding of the politics of the region. Please bear in mind that the article creators are all young, and new to Wikipedia. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:35, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Also Tourism in Kosovo. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:59, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Tourism in Kosovo probably isn't one for the hotlist, I say this as one who may appear to be a belligerent on that article! The article hasn't seen anything drastic that a plain old revert won't fix such as here [40] and here [41]. Concerning my own aspirations, I am now looking to merge as much from a revision with which I came into conflict as possible. If the editor in question returns, I hope the page will be to his satisfaction. Evlekis (Евлекис) ( argue) 12:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC) Actually, problem is bigger then this.
Wikipedia:WikiProject Kosovo/Wiki Academy Kosovo 2013
Most of those articles are highly POV, with all names in Albanian, without any other relevant information beside Albanian. This looks like a propaganda tool for me. When number of editors pop up, and create a number of very non neutral articles, that is a problem for a project and its balance. All of those articles need to be fixed. -- WhiteWriter speaks 22:12, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps if I can elaborate on Bobrayner's concern on why Albanian is considered a propaganda tool and the "name according to majority" argument. As the post above this says, Common English invariably comes first. However, no editor must ride the myth that anything is poorly sourced because there has been publication in English down the decades that have rendered certain names English. It just happens to be rare. But not as rare as one might imagine, Kosovo became world-famous during the 1998-1999 period in which time people that had never heard of this place before suddenly became familiar with Peć, Uroševac, Gnjilane, Podujevo and Mališevo - as indeed they did with the villages, even those not to contain a Slavophonic resident. Naturally things do change but it is very difficult to change terms interwoven into a publisher's idiom. I hope this answers the point. Evlekis (Евлекис) ( argue) 20:28, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article on the controversial Bat Creek inscription is included in the Wikipedia categories Archaeological Forgeries, Hoaxes in the United States, and 19th Century Hoaxes. Although archaeologists Robert Mainfort and Mary Kwas of U. Ark. and Hebraist P. Kyle McCarter of Johns Hopkins argue that it is a fraud, it was found and certified as genuine by the Smithsonian Institution Bureau of American Ethnology's authoritative Mound Survey in 1889. This Mound Survey is still considered authoritative today by archaeologists such as Stephen Williams of Harvard and Kenneth Feder of Central CT State Univ. Furthermore, the Bat Creek inscription itself is accepted as genuine by the late Cyrus Gordon of Brandeis and NYU, by Prof Emer. (Archaeology) Robert Stieglitz of Rutgers, and by U. Iowa archaeologist Marshall McKusick. I have also supported its authenticity in two articles in Tennessee Anthropologist and Biblical Archaeology Review.
According to wp:Neutral Point of View, "Articles mustn't take sides." Furthermore, wp:Categories states that "Categories must maintain a NPOV". By including this article in these categories, Wikipedia's voice is used to endorse the position that this controversial artifact is a hoax. I had proposed on Talk:Bat Creek Inscription (at "Hoax Categories vs. NPOV") to remove the article from these three categories, but Wikipedia administrator Dougweller, who often posts there, believes it is a hoax and can presumably override me.
A further issue is that none of these three hoax categories explains the criteria for inclusion, as required at wp:Categories. A category like "Artifacts of disputed authenticity" would be fine, since indeed some authorities argue it is a fraud. Other artifacts, such as the AVM Runestone, Cardiff Giant, and Piltdown Man are clearcut hoaxes, so there is no need to eliminate these hoax categories altogether, provided they explained their criteria.
So should I go ahead and remove the article from these three categories, or wait for some kind of decision here? I've never done this before. (I'm not sure how to notify Dougweller with the provided template, since the user to be notified is not one of the fields, so I'll just let him know over on the Bat Creek Talk page.) HuMcCulloch ( talk) 22:35, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
The presentation here and the discussions at the article talk page don't make much of a case for removal of the category. Seems like editors are having difficulty understanding NPOV and the other relevant policies/guidelines. -- Ronz ( talk) 00:58, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be two different issues going on here. First, I don't see the problem with having an unequivocal "hoaxes" category. As several others have said, there are always going to be those who either don't get the message or who are unwilling to concede. And there are cases within the various fields where there is genuine and persistent disagreement among those whose opinion is worth something (see for instance the Secret Gospel of Mark, where there is ongoing conflict over whether it was a fabrication of Morton Smith or not). Perhaps those cases need to be categorized separately.
But second, the real dispute seems to be over the status of this artifact. I cannot see taking a report from 1889 as some sort of archaeological dogma, no matter what the repute of the reporter. All modern archaeological analysis, if I follow the article correctly, asserts that the stone is a fraud; if there is any remaining dispute, it is over exactly what the fraud was accomplishing. So I don't see any reason not to label this object as a definite hoax. Mangoe ( talk) 13:41, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
From WP:CATEGORIES: "Categorization must also maintain a neutral point of view. Categorizations appear on article pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial; if the category's topic is likely to spark controversy, then a list article (which can be annotated and referenced) is probably more appropriate." Given that the article maintains a balance on this particular Smithsonian artifact and does not use Wikipedia's voice to pigeonhole it as a hoax, it strikes me as inappropriate for the categorization system to perform this back-door pigeonholing. (I don't know what a list article is, but this could be an option for those who want to classify it as a hoax.) HuMcCulloch ( talk) 14:51, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
It looks like this discussion is bogging down. I don't have any experience with WP disputes, but I gather from WP:Disputes that before requesting mediation, I should request a less formal third opinion from a disinterested volunteer editor. I'll wait a couple of days to see if anything else develops before proceding. HuMcCulloch ( talk) 14:45, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Gunfight at the 3O Corral? On further reading of WP:DISPUTES, WP:MEDIATION doesn't look helpful, since it doesn't actually arbitrate the issue at hand. WP:ARBITRATION only applies to conduct issues. So, Doug, I propose that we resolve the issue between the two of us with a gentleman's agreement that we will solicit a Third Opinion and abide by whatever opinion is given. Mangoe and Agricolae may agree to go along, or may raise the issue again should I win and delete the categories, but that doesn't stop us from resolving our own dispute in this manner.
I'm not sure how the mechanics work. The 3O appears to be a volunteer drawn from some sort of pool. I suggest we request that the 3O not be anyone who has posted on the Bat Creek page or on the discussion here or on talk:Bat Creek, but I guess there is no way to exclude lurkers who have been following the discussion but not participating. Have you ever done one before? Can we get it inserted into this section so that everyone interested can follow whatever the procedings are? The 3O would of course be referred to the discussion here and on the Bat Creek talk page, which pretty much covers all the issues already. HuMcCulloch ( talk) 15:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | Archive 39 | Archive 40 | → | Archive 45 |
Ancient Egyptian race controversy ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) has always been a contentious article. The main background is that as the top of the article says, "This article is about the "history of the controversy" about the race of the ancient Egyptians. For discussion of the scientific evidence relating to the race of the ancient Egyptians, see Population history of Egypt." but editors ignore this and use it as a vehicle to push their pov.
One problem is the use of block quotes to highlight an editor's favorite ideas (they were all removed from the article some time ago for this reason0. One new editor, already blocked once for edit-warring, insists on using block quotes for quotations he views as important. One of the quotes, from an encyclopedia on Ancient Egypt, is only 25 words long, so wouldn't qualify for block quotes even if it was appropriate to use them. It's also sourced as though it was written by Donald Redford although everyone now agrees that isn't the case. The other is much longer and is clearly being used to push a pov.
Another perennial problem is the attempt by editors from all povs to have the article state what the position of a group of scholars, that something is agreed broadly, etc - which is never easy to do and here often based on faulty sources. The introduction to the section Ancient Egyptian race controversy#Black African hypothesis has been removed and replaced and so far as I can see is not backed by the sources and is the site of the large block quote. The first sentence reads "It is now recognized by mainstream academia that anti-black racism played a key role in the development of the understanding of ancient Egypt in the Westernized world". The one source I can clearly read is a New York Times article [1] and the editor replacing this says it is backed by the archaeologist Emberling. Emberling is quoted as having written "“We now recognize that populations of Nubia and Egypt form a continuum rather than clearly distinct groups,” Mr. Emberling writes, “and that it is impossible to draw a line between Egypt and Nubia that would indicate where ‘black’ begins.” Even if 3 sources were enough to establish what is recognised by mainstream academia, what Emberling says doesn't back the sentence. The edit summary reinstating this also notes it is backed by Jennifer Chi in the same article, although the only mention of Chi is in the sentence "In one of his catalog essays the archaeologist Geoff Emberling, who conceived the show along with Jennifer Chi of the institute, examines some of these historical errors." The Keita paper (copyvio link to a pdf) says "Earlier studies interested in ascertaining population relationships usually examined the data from a "racial" perspective." and I'd be happy to have that used if attributed. I don't know what the Oxford Encyclopedia actually says.
Note that I think that the statement is probably accurate, but that we should be attributing statements to authors and not using a huge block quote to drive home a point.
This should apply no matter what the pov. The editor adding the above removed some material that said something was believed broadly -- see the discussion at Talk:Ancient Egyptian race controversy#Mokhtar and Snowden where I checked the sources and agreed they didn't support the statement.
There are I'm sure other NPOV issues in the article, but I think the main ones have revolved around the use of images and block quotes and attempts to show general positions without adequate sourcing. This article really needs help (I won't even start with the spin-off articles from this one, life's too short). Dougweller ( talk) 06:25, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
The citation which supports the opening sentence in my contributions from the NYtimes article reads:
More recently, our own Western prejudices — namely the idea that geographic Egypt was not a part of “black” Africa — have contributed to the dearth of knowledge about Nubia. The early-20th-century archaeologist George Reisner, for instance, identified large burial mounds at the site of Kerma as the remains of high Egyptian officials instead of those of Nubian kings. (Several of Reisner’s finds are in the show, reattributed to the Nubians.)
In one of his catalog essays the archaeologist Geoff Emberling, who conceived the show along with Jennifer Chi of the institute, examines some of these historical errors.
“We now recognize that populations of Nubia and Egypt form a continuum rather than clearly distinct groups,” Mr. Emberling writes, “and that it is impossible to draw a line between Egypt and Nubia that would indicate where ‘black’ begins.”
KAREN ROSENBERG, Partnerships and Power Shifts Between Two Mighty Lands,.
The source above is clearly attributing the denial of the black racial grouping of the ancient Egyptians to "western prejudice", which is something that Doug must have forgot to include in his description (along with the link to the article).
The next source which supports my opening sentence in my contributions is from leading bio-anthropologist/geneticist S.O.Y. Keita:
There has long been a discussion about the origins of the inhabitants of the ancient northem Nile valley. Probably for many reasons the discussion has focused on the “Africanity” of the ancient “Egyptian” populations. “Africanity” has been frequently inappropriately defined. Specifically, there has been a question about the degree or presence of “Negro” influence (e.g., Diop 1974; Robertson 1978; Robertson and Bradley 1979; Bemal 1987). “Negro” has been used to mean different things. Frequently earlier writers displayed a bias against “Negroes,” “Blacks,” and “Africans,” although the terms have been used in many ways—consistency has not been a strong point. Many would deny that prejudice had any role in the extreme concem about the “origins” of the Egyptians, but Morton’s comments at least are clear: “...civilization...could not spring from Negroes, or from Berbers and never did. . .” (quoted in Nott and Gliddon 1854). “Berbers” in this instance probably means Nubian. On the other hand Gilman (1982) reports the strong esthetic bias of Winckelmann, an eighteenth-century scholar, against Egyptians be- cause of their phenotypic “blackness.” Thomson and Randall-Maclver (1905:110) noted the prejudice in the early twentieth century.
S.O.Y. Keita, S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa .
homestead. com/keita-1993. pdf
Keita clearly demonstrates through words of 20th century scholars (throughout the entire study), that anti-black racism was the root of this entire "controversy". This source from a person who is considered an "authority" on the bio-culture origins of ancient Egypt backs my contribution.
The last source presented which supports the opening sentence in my contributions in the section in question is from the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt 2001 ( Donald Redford)
"The race and origins of the Ancient Egyptians have been a source of considerable debate. Scholars in the late and early 20th centuries rejected any considerations of the Egyptians as black Africans by defining the Egyptians either as non-African (i.e Near Easterners or Indo-Aryan), or as members of a separate brown (as opposed to a black) race, or as a mixture of lighter-skinned peoples with black Africans. In the later half of the 20th century, Afrocentric scholars have countered this Eurocentric and often racist perspective by characterizing the Egyptians as black and African....."
Donald Redford, The Oxford encyclopedia of ancient Egypt, Volume 3, p. 27-28 .
These sources have been presented to Doug throughout the talk page. For some reason this moderator has a major problem with the clear fact that one theory on this page of theories has more scholarly support than others. In this case how can you "balance" out the support for theories which are clearly debunked with the one which clearly has the support of mainstream academia? It has been brought up by several other people throughout this talk page that the moderator Doug has an emotional attachment to certain notions and blatant prejudice towards others, and he attempts to reflect this in the article. This is not helpful towards the article as it is not truthfully informing visitors to this page of the contemporary viewpoints of mainstream academia, which is based on sold evidence from multiple scientific disciplines. Asante90 ( talk) 08:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Stemming from his prejudice against the "black African" theory for ancient Egypt's origin, Doug objects to almost any new contribution to that section the article. One famous quote from 18th century French scholar Constantin-François Chassebœuf which directly deals with the relevance of this section of the article has been put in a block quote. Doug objects to this, because according to him block quotes are "bad". Two days ago I contributed to this section the views (which are consistent with reviews from scholars on the Amazon page for the book) expressed from the recent publication "Black Genesis" written by best selling author Robert Bauval. Bauval's book is basically stating that the Egyptian civilization derived from earlier advanced black ancient Saharan communities. Bauval bases this on conclusive anthropological and archaeological evidence. Doug objects to the inclusion of these statements because he considers it "fringe", but he himself could not point out on the talk page what exactly was fringe about those very statements. He then removed the statements. Asante90 ( talk) 08:25, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
“ | It is now recognized by mainstream academia that anti-black racism played a key role in the development of the understanding of ancient Egypt in the Westernized world. | ” |
Emberling and Chi confirm the notions of the Rosenburg (the editor) in Emberling's own direct quote when he states that mainstream academia no longer tries to separate Egypt and Nubia racially as both form a black continuum. At this point Doug you cannot logically be disputing the opening statement that I've added to the Black African hypothesis. Even if you take issue with exactly "who" acknowledged racism in the NYtimes article, you don't dispute the acknowledgement of racism from the S.O.Y. Keita study or from the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt? Those two sources alone are validation enough of my contributing statement.
Doug no one is preventing you or anyone else from block quoting pivotal statement from other theories. The problem that you seem to have is that you don't have any contemporary pivotal statements supporting other theories, and due to your own emotional attachment to this subject you simply don't want it to be acknowledged that one theory has more mainstream support then the others. If block quotes were a problem then block quotes would not be an editing option in wikipedia. The block quoting page does not caution anyone from using this feature, so you have no reason to either. [6]
As far as Robert Bauval goes, I have came to agree with your statements that my additional contributions about his book are a bit much. I say this mostly because his notions of an "advanced" civilization in the Sahara can not be validated by contemporary researchers. His analysis on the archaeology and anthropological evidence however is consistent with mainstream academia.
Yalen you now go on to state that my contributing statement invokes that if you disagree with this that it is rooted in racism . A historical fact is a historical fact! As stated by the Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt (authoritative) the notions that the ancient Egyptians were migrating Europeans, Hamites (southwest Asian migrants), or a mixture of Hamites and black Africans is Eurocentric and rooted in racism against blacks, and I also have another direct statement from Keita which suggest just that. Now perhaps we use the term that Keita used which is "De-Africanization" rather than "anti-black" but the bases that it was RACISM should not change as it has been cited by authorities to be just that!
Yalen you too (along with Doug) have been irrational in displaying that you cannot accept even the most authoritative conclusions on the issue at hand. You have an issue with everyone of my edits and support even the most ludicrous opinions so long it contradicts the black African hypothesis. You sir are biased and along with Doug have attempted to censor any additional information added which supported the theory that you simply do not like, and that is also apparent and noted on the talk page by several posters. Asante90 ( talk) 18:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
The issue of using modern social labels on ancient peoples tends be brought up when we are dealing specifically with the ancient Egyptians, but never any other peoples. Case and point [7]. The National Geographic's heavily controversial 2008 edition of it's magazine entitled the "Black pharaohs" of the 25th Dynasty had no problem with labeling the ancient Nubians as black. Why then is their a problem with labeling other ancient peoples in a modern context based on widely available and consistent evidence? Censorship claim is what is in dispute now sir. For example in the opening paragraphs of the article the second mention of the black Egypt theory was equated with "black supremacy" and "Afrocentrism" while the true cause of this entire controversy (white supremacy and Eurocentrism) had absolutely no mention. Now why was that the case? Asante90 ( talk) 22:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
For everyone of my major edits I've started a discussion for them, and presented my sources and reasoning for these contributions. No one disputed them on the talk page. I presented each source (s) for each contribution that I've added to the black African Hypothesis section. [8] I corrected the source distortions and blatant fallacies that sat in the modern scholarship section of the main article for who knows how long, and on the talk page I explained piece by piece what the issue was and what needed to be corrected to reflect what the sources actually state. No one has disputed those corrections on the talk page, so I have no clue what you mean by insinuating that I'm impossible to deal with. [9] [10] Asante90 ( talk) 22:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
He (also editing logged out) has replaced the contested material I removed earlier today saying he's proven his case here so he can reinstate it. His edit summary reads "Your dropped your argument in the discussion over both the box quotes and you offered no contest to statements of De'Volney [11] Stop lying!" I had left the Oxford material in, removing the box quote as per our MOS for short quotations and attributing it to its author, Tyson. He's even changed it back to read as though it is by Donald Redford. Besides all the other problems, he has no consensus for this. He says no consensus is required for the block quote and other editors are welcome to add their own block quotes. This is exactly the problem we need to avoid. He says "the most authoritative contemporary source in relation to this article should be given extra attention above." - the problem is, who decides that? If anyone else thinks I've dropped my argument, please let me know so I can fix that. He more or less admits he doesn't have consensus, saying I am "rallying up a of your Klan members to say they don't like it." It doesn't look as though he's going to play nice. :-) Dougweller ( talk) 18:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
This page is not in a NPOV. Efforts to give add any positive descriptions of the organization are often deleted and any efforts to disqualify the criticisms are ignored. Criticisms are fair but where is the praise. The organization in clearly non-partisan by its support from both parties. Its stance on some issues may be controversial but hardly worthy of the edits done to the page. Can anyone contribute to make this page positively? Liberty20036 ( talk) 00:09, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
After several additions of original research (and removal of maintenance tags) by User:Checkin34z ( contribs):
which were reverted by User:Md.altaf.rahman and later myself, and although discussion(s) have taken at User talk:Checkin34z, at User talk:Benzband#Tishma and at User talk:Md.altaf.rahman i don't think we're going to reach an agreement over the article. We would appreciate any input on the matter.
Also i have just drastically edited the article to remove unsourced/inappropriate content. Cheers, benzband ( talk) 19:07, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
An editor as disputed the neutrality of Rape and pregnancy controversies in United States elections, 2012. I am coming here to simply ask for outside opinions on rather the article is written from a neutral point of view. Casprings ( talk) 18:47, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
User:Niteshift36 is repeatedly adding " Juggalos" as a "gang affiliation" on Crips, even though Juggalo is a music fanbase, not a gang. He has repeatedly attacked me for removing this allegation, despite the fact that it very obviously violates WP:NPOV and there is no evidence of any "Juggalo gangs". -- BigBabyChips ( talk) 21:59, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
I invite commentary on neutrality and undue weight issues in the article talk page [23]. Handyunits ( talk) 06:40, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Children in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
For a couple months User_talk:68.6.227.26 has kept adding information about Israeli suffering and about Palestinian ill-doing (including children as terrorists) to the article. He has been civil about adopting to corrective edits (though I haven't even tried to remove some of the WP:Undue on some topics). He just seems insensitive to criticism from another editor earlier on and myself and just keeps adding such material. If someone could just take a quick look and comment on the NPOV issue that might help wake him up more to the issue. Thanks. CarolMooreDC 19:51, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I'd appreciate it if somebody would take a look at the new Derby sex gang article, from the perspective of WP:NPOV - it looks far too tabloid and sensationalist to me, and seems overly-concerned with the ethnic background of the offenders. AndyTheGrump ( talk) 01:07, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Note. I have had to remove individuals not convicted of sexual offences from the table in the article, per WP:BLP policy - and in talk page discussions it is clear that some are arguing that these individuals are part of the 'sex gang', even though the sources cited do not state this.
AndyTheGrump (
talk) 18:41, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Note Can I just remind folks in general to be especially careful on such an inflammatory subject to stay polite and on-topic. -- John ( talk) 21:52, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Is it me, or has this become a long editorial on behalf of not moving a school from one site to another? 99.12.243.171 ( talk) 20:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
The following text appears in the lead:
In central Europe, where most of the schools are located,[2] the Waldorf approach has achieved general acceptance as a model of alternative education.[7]
There is a disagreement ( diff) about the second half of this sentence ("the Waldorf approach ...") in particular whether WP:YESPOV applies and the words (sourced to a book written by a scholar) should be inline attributed, rather than stated in WP's voice. Alexbrn talk| contribs| COI 17:21, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
I've started an AfD (as of Feb 3 relisted), which for reasons I've explained on that page is in need of as many reviews and replies as possible, so please take a look and review it if possible. Some of the issues debated have to do with neutrality of groupings, headings and sources as well as notability other criteria.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:55, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Having come across the title satguru in an article I find that the article seems to say nothing beyond how great a satguru is. I am having no luck finding anything that defines it in a neutral manner, as pretty much everything turns up works ostensibly by or about people proclaimed as satgurus. Mangoe ( talk) 18:45, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
We could use some eyes on American Community School of Abu Dhabi, see the history. Any extra eyes and hands would probably help, npov, coi, blp and due weight experience would be clear pluses. I'm on holiday myself, so I'm deferring here. Martijn Hoekstra ( talk) 15:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
Someone might want to take a look at this. Created from scratch in one go, "new" editor. Perennial problem topic of course. It seems like a bunch of contentious WP:SYNTH and OR. § FreeRangeFrog croak 18:02, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
1 editor ( Vles1) has accused me of having writing an not neutral Wikipedia article called Criminal cases against Yulia Tymoshenko since 2010. But to the best of my abilities I can not see anything not neutral in it.... Could an not involved party please take a look at this article and point out to me what is wrong with the current article. I did try to write a good neutral article (although I am aware I am no Gogol). — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:54, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I did get\do have the feeling that Vles1 thought there was too much emphasize on the statements by Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych that the cases of Tymoshenko are "non-partisan measures to combat corruption in Ukraine". I think he was concerned that would push the readers into "a certain way of thinking". But I just wanted to give the readers " Both Sides of the Story". (Something I noticed the BBC does not do in there reporting about Tymoshenko; hence) it is not that easy to find good English speaking sources about this subject. But I do believe the sources used in this Wiki-article are reliable. Kyiv Post is usually not the most objective newspaper in the world but all the facts they write about are true. Thanks for your time and efforts; they are appreciated! — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 19:41, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
I know... But my knowledge of Ukrainian (or any other East Slavic language) is not really good.... It always takes ages for me to work with sources from Ukraine... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 20:16, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Did do some tweaking in the article once again the last days (stayed closer to the sources), including following up some of your suggestions. I did not put in any stuff from another Wikipedia, and after a brief look (at the Ukr & Rus Wiki counterparts of the same Wiki article) I concluded this seems not to have happened. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 01:35, 8 February 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, I think you are right; I also had the impression, that because in the current Ukrainian political climate politicians there are always trying to "destroy" there opponents rather then collaborate with them, Vles1 had the impression that I was out here to outfox him (using the article to promote and advocate anti-Tymoshenko views (which I was not)).
Thanks for all your help! If you want you can help to promote the article to a wp:DYK by adding :*[[File:Symbol confirmed.svg|16px]] Date, size, hook (ref, neutrality) all seem fine. GTG.~~~~ to/at its nomination page . I always think there are always to many USA-ian DYK's... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 00:29, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Recently an article, Sri Vishnu Teertharu, was moved into the article space after almost a year of work. However, the tone of the article is worthy of concern. It includes wording such as "one of the greatest seers in Hindu religion" and "Jayateerthacharya was all wealthy by God’s grace. At the same time he was so kind in nature...". I would like some advice on how I should treat this article. Thank you. Michaelzeng7 ( talk) 16:20, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Hi folks,
I realize this probably isn't the right place to post this, as it isn't a dispute per se; no substantive edits (barring the recent change that brought me to the page) have been made for literally years (last ones I see are from around 2008); whats more, this entire article is possibly the most transparently biased thing I've ever read. To quote an IP editor (the only person to have ever edited the talk page),
"The tone of this article lacks a certain dispassionate, encyclopaedic quality... phrases like "one of the true Faith", and the end of the second section, reading: The time was ripening for Rome to abandon the East, turn toward the West, and enter into that alliance with the Germano-Romanic nations, on which is based our Western civilization, of which one consequence was the formation of the States of the Church. It would have been easy for the popes to throw off the Byzantine yoke in Central Italy as early as the time of Iconoclasm, but waited wisely until it was clearly establish that the Byzantines could no longer protect the pope and the Romans against the Lombards, and they founnd another power that could protect them, the Frankish kingdom, in the middle of the eighth century. Who was this written by? The PR department at the Vatican would write better, and have a more subtle display of bias..."
Unfortunately, the article is somewhat of a wall of text, and I dcn't have the time or expertise to fix it. It's bad, though...really bad. Almost to the point of being a lost cause; it might be a better idea to delete it and start from scratch! So, why am I posting it here, then? Well, honestly I can't bear to walk away with an article in this poor of condition. If you have a few minutes to spare, mind popping over there and trying to improve it?
Okay, that's all I've to say. Please don't eat me for posting this in the wrong place! Cheers, -Zaldax
I'm a trying-to-be-retired editor, who recently came across a blog-post on this topic's most recent lawsuit. Looked up the Wikipedia article and found this self-describing whitewash.
Contrast this with what one of the sources (who strangely enough were used only for the irrelevant fact that "the company typically limits the initial printing of each title to 300 copies but titles are guaranteed to stay perpetually in print") has to say about it:
Many readers may already be aware of the publishing activities of the Edwin Mellen Press and of the controversy that has arisen concerning the quality of the books which they publish. Those who have not already done so are strongly encouraged to read an account of the publisher's somewhat unusual practices reprinted in the December 9-15, 1993 issue of the newspaper "Campus Review".
Briefly summarised, the reprinted report suggests that this publisher produces what appear to be from their titles to be properly researched, refereed and edited scholarly books but which often prove to contain quite extraordinary gibberish. It is suggested that manuscripts are accepted unread and that proof readers are strongly encouraged not to correct errors.
Edwin Mellen Press uses electrostatic (photocopying) technology and usually prints only 300 copies of any title, but titles are guaranteed to stay perpetually in print. A recent catalogue from the Press promises 450 new titles per year and also makes it clear that academic and research libraries are their target.
By getting their books included in approval plans and publishing nearly all of their books in series to induce standing orders, Edwin Mellen has succeeded in selling some very bad books to many of the world's best libraries.
Monash University Library (MUL) too has purchased many titles from this imprint in good faith. Possibly some of these are quite good scholarly works which were judged to arcane by other publishers. At least one title is on a recommended reading list for an undergraduate course. Nonetheless we cannot but be concerned on reading the allegations in "Campus Review". MUL has no brief as a censor of scholarship, but would be very grateful to hear the opinion of Monash scholars on the value of many Edwin Mellen titles which the Library holds and can supply at least partial lists of these. Contact the Collection Management Librarian, Robert Stafford by telephone on 52613 or email roberts@lib.monash.edu.au
The success of this publisher, who to date has generally confined its interests to the humanities, cannot be separated from the publish or perish syndrome which has long plagued the sciences. In sciences, and indeed the social sciences, one consequence has been ever increasing serials costs to libraries, who have had to develop a range of strategies in response. We would be very pleased to have the advice of the academic community on whether or not we should continue to circulate new title information for this publisher's books. For those who are interested we can also supply copies of a four-page extract from Mellen Books in Print entitled 'how to publish a scholarly book '.
It's quite clear (from this and other sources) that academic librarians regard this publisher below pondscum. I've tried to give WP:DUE to this viewpoint, but it probably needs more nuance, expansion & monitoring, which I won't be around to provide. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:06, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
One suggestion for establishing WP:WEIGHT at Talk:Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute is that WP:WEIGHT and WP:DUE should ideally be established by reference to neutral 3rd party sources to ensure coverage is commensurate with the weight of opinion and prominence is given in proportion to the coverage in the same. Another editor argues that anything that could be sourced should be included and that this could be modified by what he suggests to "add only what we can source with two different reliable sources". I am bringing this here for outside comment as to which of the two suggestions best follows WP:NPOV. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
Excuse me Kahastok but your final questions I believe do not sum up the issue quite properly. I'd say: should we be basing the removal or not of a section (or article) or its extension based exclusively on published books or article journals? Or should we also take into consideration the existence of reliable secondary sources (such as newspapers) to make that assessment? My opposition to the "quality standard" attempting to be applied to that section (with the aims of removing it) it's because it would have a devastating effect over a large number of articles in WP if applied as is, and thus it is just not sensible. Reliable secondary sources exist for a reason, not every article can be based (or have the weight of its sections based) on books or journal articles. One only needs to go to some of the articles I've mentioned in the comment above (among many other) to see this. Regards. Gaba p ( talk) 22:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
I apologise in advance for repeating myself, the purpose of this section was to get outside comment that WP:WEIGHT can be judged on the basis of requiring that two different sources, primarily newspaper reports, rather than the current community standard in WP:NPOV. Please could I have outside comment, thank you. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
Despite considerable discussion at Talk:Ancient Egyptian race controversy about the reliability of Herodotus, the latest edits by Dailey78 ( talk · contribs) leave the discussion of Herodotus's reliability starting with "Scholars, ancient and modern, regard the works of Herodotus as reliable. A.H.L. Heeren quotes Herodotus on nearly every page of his work and provides examples from modern scholarship (source of the Nile, Meroe, etc.) that corroborate Herodotus' claims". This has two sources, Cheikh Anta Diop and Arnold Hermann Ludwig Heeren. This is followed by "Diop also defends the reliability of Herodotus by providing examples of corroboration in modern scholarship,[143][120][119] but Snowden claims that Diop is distorting his classical sources and is quoting them selectively.[144] Many scholars, ancient and modern, regard the works of Herodotus as being unreliable as historical sources.[145][146][147][148][149][150][151][152] The reliability of his writings about Egypt are particularly questioned.[153][154][155][156][157]" which does show that numerous scholars question his reliability. I believe that we need to start by making it clear there is a dispute, citing and attributing those that say he is reliable and then ditto for those who disagree. 'Scholars ancient and modern' is too broad a statement, especially when only 2 people are cited. I'm not convinced that we care that an early 19th century scholar mentions Herodotus on almost every page (and I strongly disagree with the idea expressed at Talk:Black Egyptian Hypothesis that someone writing that long ago can be used to show a "high level of agreement between Herodotus, other ancient historians, and modern archaeologists".
This isn't a huge deal but it's been impossible to work out arguments like these on the respective talk pages. It would be nice to get comments from someone not involved with the article. Dougweller ( talk) 11:17, 10 February 2013 (UTC)
Read my original post above.
Rod's current version, which he calls balanced (about 110 words for the Herodotus is reliable position vs 30 for the other), reads:
"Many scholars (Aubin, Heeren, Davidson, Diop, Poe, Welsby, Celenko, Volney, Montet, Bernal, Jackson, DuBois, Strabo), ancient and modern, routinely cite Herodotus in their works on the Nile Valley. Some of these scholars (Heeren, Aubin, Diop, etc.) explicitly mention the reliability of Herodotus' work on the Nile Valley and demonstrate corroboration of Herodotus' writings by modern scholars.[139][117][116] A.H.L. Heeren (1838) quoted Herodotus throughout his work and provided corroboration by scholars of his day regarding several passages (source of the Nile, location of Meroe, etc.).[140] To further his work on the Egyptians and Assyrians, Aubin uses Herodotus' accounts in various passages and defends Herodotus' position against modern scholars. [141] In contrast, many scholars, ancient and modern, regard the works of Herodotus as being unreliable as historical sources.[142][143][144][145][146][147][148][149] " Dougweller ( talk) 06:12, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
And his latest version:
Many scholars (Aubin, Heeren, Davidson, Diop, Poe, Welsby, Celenko, Volney, Montet, Bernal, Jackson, DuBois, Strabo), ancient and modern, routinely cite Herodotus in their works on the Nile Valley. Some of these scholars (Welsby, Heeren, Aubin, Diop, etc.) explicitly mention the reliability of Herodotus' work on the Nile Valley and demonstrate corroboration of Herodotus' writings by modern scholars.[139][117][116] Welsby said that "archaeology graphically confirms some of Herodotus' observations." [140] A.H.L. Heeren (1838) quoted Herodotus throughout his work and provided corroboration by scholars of his day regarding several passages (source of the Nile, location of Meroe, etc.).[141] To further his work on the Egyptians and Assyrians, Aubin uses Herodotus' accounts in various passages and defends Herodotus' position against modern scholars. [142] In contrast, many scholars, ancient and modern, regard the works of Herodotus as being unreliable as historical sources.[143][144][145][146][147][148][149][150] The reliability of his writings about Egypt are particularly questioned.[151][152][153][154][155] Snowden claims that Diop is distorting his classical sources and is quoting them selectively.[156]" I'd like to know which Egyptian observations Welsby is referring to, if any. No one has said that Herodotus was never right so it's not clear why this is here. Dougweller ( talk) 10:00, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Request for comment regarding if chiropractic is a 'health care profession'. Regards, DVMt ( talk) 17:54, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
Looking for some unbiased opinions on neutrality and undue weight issue for the lead of NLP in the article talk page Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming. Allisgod ( talk) 00:49, 7 February 2013 (UTC)
(Preface: Really this shouldn't have got this far, as multiple discussions have shown a clear consensus in one direction, but what can you do when users insist on edit-warring tendentiously in service of a POV.)
Maafa 21 is an anti-abortion film (by Mark Crutcher, car salesman turned activist) about the conspiracy theory according to which Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood were formed with the aim of facilitating genocide against black people through birth control and abortion. This WP:FRINGE claim is not remotely supported in the historical scholarship, and Esther Katz (NYU professor and editor of Sanger's papers) has deigned to comment on the film in order to point this out. All our policies not only allow but require that this fact appear in our article, but for the past week or so, users whose love for the film seemingly outweighs their commitment to building an encyclopedia have been edit-warring to remove it from the article, or at best, weakening it to "criticism" from "some people." (While adding rubbish promotional sources, as though volume were a substitute for quality and NPOV.) It's strange to pose this question to the board when the answer is so obvious, but here it is anyway: does NPOV require censoring any mention of the mainstream view in an article on a fringe view?
(Multiple RSN discussions have determined that Katz and other historical scholars are reliable sources on the history of Sanger and PP, while Crutcher is not, and also that our sources (a newspaper which quotes Katz, and material from the MSPP website) are acceptable references for those scholarly views. On the other hand, one user at the article has apparently stated an intention to continue removing the material forever since her own personal interpretation of NPOV overrides everyone else's consensus, so more content noticeboards instead of behavioral boards may be a waste of time, but hope springs eternal.) – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 21:44, 18 February 2013 (UTC) [Edited to add diffs/text – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 01:21, 19 February 2013 (UTC)]
Perhaps if you read the instructions above and actually follow them then somone might be able to focus on your NPOV issue. So far the only diff you presented is a talk page comment that doesn't even say what you are purporting.
little green rosetta
(talk)
central scrutinizer 22:56, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
As an uninvolved editor, this is text that I believe to be neutrally worded:
Interested editors can take this back to the talk page for further discussion. I am going to recommend that an administrator close this thread as further progress is unlikely to occur here at this time. Location ( talk) 02:18, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi all. I've been working to correct factual errors at Flavio Briatore, based on an OTRS ticket. I believe I've reached an outcome that everyone is happy with on every point bar one. The final point is an NPOV issue, so I thought the best solution is to get some outside eyes on it. It concerns the Nelson Piquet Jr quote, the last paragraph of this section. It is a very negative quote with regards to Briatore, made soon after Piquet Jr was sacked. The request is that it is either removed from the article, or balanced with some more positive quotes (I've been sent a few very positive pieces, but haven't seen any that were directly relevent to his skills as an F1 manager).
My thoughts were 1) leave as is or rather 1a) move the quote to the departure section to give it more context or 2) remove it. I'm not keen on adding random quotes to balance things. I'd appreciate any thoughts, alternative solutions or just anyone doing the hard work for me . WormTT( talk) 13:19, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
I don't know the history here, but I've seen a mistake (I think) that needs correction. The biography states that the USS Ticonderoga was attacked on September 30, 1918. This appears to be in conflict with the citation noted which says the date was October 4, 1918. It's clear from the report that this was not a 5-day battle so one of those dates is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.224.6.26 ( talk) 04:01, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
Could someone please review the article on the Louisiana Science Education act, here: [28] The article appears to be written completly from the viewpoint of the small group seeking to repeal the act. Their original version did not Even cover the text of the act or the reasons it was proposed or passed in he first place. I have sought to add some balance to the article by including the purpose of the act, but am facing accusations of 'vandalism' by annonymous ip addresses for having done so. They are claiming that the statements by the bills author made in the legislative hearing are the authors opionion and not indicative of the intended purpose of the act. Pikachudad ( talk) 17:43, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
This article here: [
[29]] has this section:
Basis of name
Khaybar is an oasis approximately 95 miles east of Medina, which was once the largest Jewish settlement in Arabia. The name was chosen as a reminder of the Battle of Khaybar, a battle that took place in 629 between Muhammed and his followers against the Jews who inhabited the settlement.[6]
As I noted on the Talk page [
[30]], the [6] reference "providing 'support' for the explanation of the name given here doesn’t mention the assault rifle at all, is an article slandering Muslims as rabid anti-Semitic jihadists, and is written by someone who authored a book called “The Islamization of America”. It's anti-Muslim hate-speech, and at the very least is NPOV. Worse, from Wikipedia’s perspective, it doesn’t give any evidence the Iranians named their rifle after a massacre […]"
My point is that the article claims the name was specifically chosen as a reminder of a battle against a Jewish tribe (without mentioning the attack was in response to betrayal), when no evidence from anywhere – least of all not from the manufacturers website or the supposedly supporting reference – backup that assertion, and there's a frankly more compelling case to be made for the reference to the well known Shia myth.
Its unwarranted and biased, akin to suggesting something like: "American arms producer, Colt, is named for the horses ridden by the US Cavalry as they slaughtered Native Americans".
I'm not the first to raise this, but the blatant race-baiting remains. Its unwarrantedly partisan: at the least, the alternate explanation should be included.
I am not familiar with Wiki culture, and do not know if I have support for my position: I feel, without any reference that actually explains the verified reason for the choice of the name, the section is pure speculation and should be removed entirely, but I know that simply deleting sections is frowned on. What would be a good way to proceed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.241.80.171 ( talk) 21:53, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
I have commenced an RfC referencing the appropriateness for inclusion, per WP:NPOV, of a FactCheck.org assertion within the John Kerry military service controversy article. Opinions are solicited from editors who may be both interested and informed in the subject of WP:NPOV. Thank you. JakeInJoisey ( talk) 14:07, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm afraid you are distracting from the issue under discussion again. Please refrain from attacking the OP or changing the subject to what you think of me. If you can't do that, then don't reply. I'm only interested in seeing this issue resolved. If you feel that you have interpersonal issues with other editors, then please seek guidance elsewhere.
Lest the subject of this section be lost in further non-disruptive "asides"... I have commenced an RfC referencing the appropriateness for inclusion, per WP:NPOV, of a FactCheck.org assertion within the John Kerry military service controversy article. Opinions are solicited from editors who may be both interested and informed in the subject of WP:NPOV. Thank you. JakeInJoisey ( talk) 20:50, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi, i asked here last month (to no avail), but now another editor is adding similar unencyclopedic/poorly sourced content and puffery to the Tishma article. history. benzband ( talk) 15:22, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
It has come to my attention that the Wikipedia editor EnochBethany ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has made at least seven recent edits to the Gun politics in Mexico article of which at least five, I believe, are in violation of Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy.
The following is the lists of all seven edits done by EnochBethany to the Gun politics in Mexico article as of the time I am submitting this complain. Highlighted in bold are the exact changes done by EnochBethany which I consider biased/non-neutral:
It appears editor EnochBethany wants to assert to Wikipedia readers that despite the fact that there are laws governing the lawful ownership and possession of firearms in Mexico, there are people who choose to ignore these laws and proceed to own and possess guns illegally. This is true, but the article is a not a forum to rant about how some people choose to break the law in Mexico because lawbreakers exists in all societies, not just Mexico.
Imagine the driver license article stating something somewhere along the lines of: "A driver's license/licence or driving licence is an official document which states that a person may operate a motorized vehicle, such as a motorcycle, car, truck or a bus, on a public roadway. However, one can always ignore the law and chose to drive a vehicle without a driver license or authorization from the government."... The sentence in bold is an example of the style of writing EnochBethany has chosen to let readers know there are those who choose to break firearm law in Mexico.
I was going to proceed and revert all edits done by user EnochBethany that I consider biased/non-neutral but I did not want to fall into an Edit warring & 3RR incident with him or her. I would appreciate if an Administrator would revise my grievances and decide. I suggest that if EnochBethany wants to remind readers of the gun violence and unlawful proliferation of firearms that does exist in Mexico, he/she creates an additional section in the article, similarly to the Gun violence section of the Gun politics in Honduras article. I have informed EnochBethany of this notice. Thank you. -- Usfirstgov ( talk) 11:42, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
A big part of the problem is sourcing and original research. I found:"Of course those who watch Spanish language news have no misconception that criminals commonly carry firearms and kill persons in Mexico, regardless of paper laws. [37] - there is no article at the link that says this. I've left that in for the nonce.
" except for criminals who commonly ignore the law, carry guns, and shoot them wherever and whenever they so choose. [38] - the linked article doesn't say this, the editor is using it as an argument for his edit - this is what we call original research, see WP:NOR.
"except in the common case of criminals who get need no permission from the government, yet carry and use guns quite commonly." (ctrl-click)"> (ctrl-click)"> (ctrl-click)"> </ref> - basically the same thing.
And "As an alternative, a person may choose to ignore the law and privately buy guns and ammunition without regard to the law."
[39] - I've deleted all 3.
Dougweller (
talk) 22:02, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
IMHO wp:npov is just one of the problems with the edits. The others are wp:ver / wp:nor lack of reliable sourcing for the statements as worded, and also unenclyclopedic writing, bordering on being rants. North8000 ( talk) 12:49, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Just reading through this notice made my head spin, but as I see it this is a violation. I believe that the statements made by EnochBethany were opinionated and unwarranted. The sources are a bit on the lighter side (content wise) but yet demonstrate common misconceptions and beliefs about Mexico. It is as if his/her statements are something that could be added to any Wikipedia page and be proven in the way that EnochBethany did. But like I said, his/her sources were not substantial and a bit biased.-- Thepresidenthal ( talk) 16:24, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
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I came across this article on the BBC web site which led me to this one then, on a hunch, our article. Is the word enemy, used in our article, a neutral term in this context? -- Senra ( talk) 21:42, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi! At Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#GEO_Group there was an issue over a private prison company trying to scrub its controversies section.
But I heard that it is usually better to have the controversies and praise mixed together throughout the article. How should the criticisms section be re-arranged? WhisperToMe ( talk) 23:14, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
Why not include a reference the article on Deadspin? Rather than continue with the on-and-off changes, provide an objective account about this "edit war" happening in the first place, including both critics' and the prison's viewpoints (if they've said anything).
I recently attended a workshop in Kosovo, where I taught student to edit Wikipedia. A number of articles were created, and some of them are now subject to NPoV disputes:
It would be good if they could have some attention from neutral editors, especially these with an understanding of the politics of the region. Please bear in mind that the article creators are all young, and new to Wikipedia. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:35, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Also Tourism in Kosovo. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:59, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Tourism in Kosovo probably isn't one for the hotlist, I say this as one who may appear to be a belligerent on that article! The article hasn't seen anything drastic that a plain old revert won't fix such as here [40] and here [41]. Concerning my own aspirations, I am now looking to merge as much from a revision with which I came into conflict as possible. If the editor in question returns, I hope the page will be to his satisfaction. Evlekis (Евлекис) ( argue) 12:58, 4 March 2013 (UTC) Actually, problem is bigger then this.
Wikipedia:WikiProject Kosovo/Wiki Academy Kosovo 2013
Most of those articles are highly POV, with all names in Albanian, without any other relevant information beside Albanian. This looks like a propaganda tool for me. When number of editors pop up, and create a number of very non neutral articles, that is a problem for a project and its balance. All of those articles need to be fixed. -- WhiteWriter speaks 22:12, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps if I can elaborate on Bobrayner's concern on why Albanian is considered a propaganda tool and the "name according to majority" argument. As the post above this says, Common English invariably comes first. However, no editor must ride the myth that anything is poorly sourced because there has been publication in English down the decades that have rendered certain names English. It just happens to be rare. But not as rare as one might imagine, Kosovo became world-famous during the 1998-1999 period in which time people that had never heard of this place before suddenly became familiar with Peć, Uroševac, Gnjilane, Podujevo and Mališevo - as indeed they did with the villages, even those not to contain a Slavophonic resident. Naturally things do change but it is very difficult to change terms interwoven into a publisher's idiom. I hope this answers the point. Evlekis (Евлекис) ( argue) 20:28, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article on the controversial Bat Creek inscription is included in the Wikipedia categories Archaeological Forgeries, Hoaxes in the United States, and 19th Century Hoaxes. Although archaeologists Robert Mainfort and Mary Kwas of U. Ark. and Hebraist P. Kyle McCarter of Johns Hopkins argue that it is a fraud, it was found and certified as genuine by the Smithsonian Institution Bureau of American Ethnology's authoritative Mound Survey in 1889. This Mound Survey is still considered authoritative today by archaeologists such as Stephen Williams of Harvard and Kenneth Feder of Central CT State Univ. Furthermore, the Bat Creek inscription itself is accepted as genuine by the late Cyrus Gordon of Brandeis and NYU, by Prof Emer. (Archaeology) Robert Stieglitz of Rutgers, and by U. Iowa archaeologist Marshall McKusick. I have also supported its authenticity in two articles in Tennessee Anthropologist and Biblical Archaeology Review.
According to wp:Neutral Point of View, "Articles mustn't take sides." Furthermore, wp:Categories states that "Categories must maintain a NPOV". By including this article in these categories, Wikipedia's voice is used to endorse the position that this controversial artifact is a hoax. I had proposed on Talk:Bat Creek Inscription (at "Hoax Categories vs. NPOV") to remove the article from these three categories, but Wikipedia administrator Dougweller, who often posts there, believes it is a hoax and can presumably override me.
A further issue is that none of these three hoax categories explains the criteria for inclusion, as required at wp:Categories. A category like "Artifacts of disputed authenticity" would be fine, since indeed some authorities argue it is a fraud. Other artifacts, such as the AVM Runestone, Cardiff Giant, and Piltdown Man are clearcut hoaxes, so there is no need to eliminate these hoax categories altogether, provided they explained their criteria.
So should I go ahead and remove the article from these three categories, or wait for some kind of decision here? I've never done this before. (I'm not sure how to notify Dougweller with the provided template, since the user to be notified is not one of the fields, so I'll just let him know over on the Bat Creek Talk page.) HuMcCulloch ( talk) 22:35, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
The presentation here and the discussions at the article talk page don't make much of a case for removal of the category. Seems like editors are having difficulty understanding NPOV and the other relevant policies/guidelines. -- Ronz ( talk) 00:58, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
There seems to be two different issues going on here. First, I don't see the problem with having an unequivocal "hoaxes" category. As several others have said, there are always going to be those who either don't get the message or who are unwilling to concede. And there are cases within the various fields where there is genuine and persistent disagreement among those whose opinion is worth something (see for instance the Secret Gospel of Mark, where there is ongoing conflict over whether it was a fabrication of Morton Smith or not). Perhaps those cases need to be categorized separately.
But second, the real dispute seems to be over the status of this artifact. I cannot see taking a report from 1889 as some sort of archaeological dogma, no matter what the repute of the reporter. All modern archaeological analysis, if I follow the article correctly, asserts that the stone is a fraud; if there is any remaining dispute, it is over exactly what the fraud was accomplishing. So I don't see any reason not to label this object as a definite hoax. Mangoe ( talk) 13:41, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
From WP:CATEGORIES: "Categorization must also maintain a neutral point of view. Categorizations appear on article pages without annotations or referencing to justify or explain their addition; editors should be conscious of the need to maintain a neutral point of view when creating categories or adding them to articles. Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial; if the category's topic is likely to spark controversy, then a list article (which can be annotated and referenced) is probably more appropriate." Given that the article maintains a balance on this particular Smithsonian artifact and does not use Wikipedia's voice to pigeonhole it as a hoax, it strikes me as inappropriate for the categorization system to perform this back-door pigeonholing. (I don't know what a list article is, but this could be an option for those who want to classify it as a hoax.) HuMcCulloch ( talk) 14:51, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
It looks like this discussion is bogging down. I don't have any experience with WP disputes, but I gather from WP:Disputes that before requesting mediation, I should request a less formal third opinion from a disinterested volunteer editor. I'll wait a couple of days to see if anything else develops before proceding. HuMcCulloch ( talk) 14:45, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Gunfight at the 3O Corral? On further reading of WP:DISPUTES, WP:MEDIATION doesn't look helpful, since it doesn't actually arbitrate the issue at hand. WP:ARBITRATION only applies to conduct issues. So, Doug, I propose that we resolve the issue between the two of us with a gentleman's agreement that we will solicit a Third Opinion and abide by whatever opinion is given. Mangoe and Agricolae may agree to go along, or may raise the issue again should I win and delete the categories, but that doesn't stop us from resolving our own dispute in this manner.
I'm not sure how the mechanics work. The 3O appears to be a volunteer drawn from some sort of pool. I suggest we request that the 3O not be anyone who has posted on the Bat Creek page or on the discussion here or on talk:Bat Creek, but I guess there is no way to exclude lurkers who have been following the discussion but not participating. Have you ever done one before? Can we get it inserted into this section so that everyone interested can follow whatever the procedings are? The 3O would of course be referred to the discussion here and on the Bat Creek talk page, which pretty much covers all the issues already. HuMcCulloch ( talk) 15:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)