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The Conspiracy theory article is having some POV problems. I am trying to follow WP:LEADCITE and am supported by Mystichumwipe and Mystylplx but we have editors reverting under the guise of a consensus which with the three of us think doesn't exist.
Here is what I want to put in:
A conspiracy theory in its broadest sense is "simply a theory that posits a conspiracy--a secret plan on the part of some group to influence events by partly secret means."[1][2][3][4] but it is also used as a derogatory term to denote ridiculous, misconceived, paranoid, unfounded, outlandish or irrational theories.[5]
1) "But if a conspiracy theory is simply a theory that posits a conspiracy – a secret plan on the part of some group to influence events by partly secret means – and if a conspiracy theorist is someone who subscribes to a conspiracy theory, then the conventional wisdom itself is not just suspect, but obviously absurd."(Pigden, Charles R (2007) "Conspiracy Theories and the Conventional Wisdom" Episteme: A Journal of Social Epistemology Volume 4, Issue 2, Edinburgh University Press pp. 222 DOI: 10.1353/epi.2007.0017.)
2) "What is a conspiracy theory? The discussion so far suggests that a conspiracy theory is simply a conspiratorial explanation, and that an explanation is conspiratorial if it postulates a group of agents working together in secret, often, though perhaps not always, for a sinister purpose." (Coady, David Conspiracy theories: the philosophical debate Ashgate Publishing Page 2) later on page 140 Coady reiterates that at its most basic level a conspiracy theory is the theory of a conspiracy.
3) Balaban, Oded (2005) Interpreting conflict: Israeli-Palestinian Negotiations at Camp David II and Beyond Peter Lang Page 66
4) Parish, Jane (2001) The age of anxiety: conspiracy theory and the human sciences Wiley-Blackwell page 94
5) "conspiracy theory n (1909) the theory that an event or phenomenon occurs as a result of a conspiracy between interested parties. Originally a neutral term, but more recent usage (dating from around the mid 1960s) is often somewhat derogatory, implying a paranoid tendency to see the hand of some malign covert agency in any unexplained event." 20th Century Words (1999) John Ayto, Oxford University Press, p. 15.
Keeping WP:LEADCITE in mind just what is wrong with this lead?-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 20:09, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
or should sayA conspiracy theory explains an event as being the result of an alleged plot by a covert group or organization or, more broadly, the idea that important political, social or economic events are the products of secret plots that are largely unknown to the general public.( permalink)
One side asserts that the first summary is accurate and the second is an attempt to cleanse "conspiracy theory" to remove its negative connotations so it is merely a theory about a conspiracy rather than a cuckoo belief as is actually the case. Johnuniq ( talk) 23:05, 28 October 2011 (UTC)A conspiracy theory in its broadest sense is "simply a theory that posits a conspiracy--a secret plan on the part of some group to influence events by partly secret means;" but it is also used as a derogatory term to denote ridiculous, misconceived, paranoid, unfounded, outlandish or irrational theories.( permalink)
Nuujinn, the version you and several other editors support has NO references to back it up--not a single one. Are you and those other editors now claiming that a book published by the freaking Oxford University Press doesn't know what it is talking about without thing to back that up?!? Do any of you understand how insane that position is? When I challenged Knight's claim of the phrase first appearing in 1909 I at least had reliable sources to back up my position; so far all we have seen contesting my position is a bunch of empty OR rhetoric and not a single RS backing up any of it up.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 00:30, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Specifically the animal welfare section. Another editor has periodically made edits that, in my opinion, are an attempt at slanting the section towards an anti-chuckwagon racing POV. See my reversion from yesterday's changes here. I feel that the changes made do not reflect the sources that pre-existed, while new additions are from advocacy sites and blogs that do not qualify as RSes. Knowing the controversy exists, I went to significant lengths to try and present both sides as neutrally as possible. Given I wrote the article in its current state (and took it to FA), I would rather not resort to simply reverting such changes without other views so as to avoid appearing to be taking a WP:OWN stance on the article. As such, I would appreciate opinions on both the section of the article, and the appropriateness of my revert. Thanks, Reso lute 17:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Recommendation: Reduction of the whole melange to perhaps three paragraphs from the current six, removal of the images, removal of such words as "argue" and "claim" and simply stating that animal rights groups are unhappy that the Humane Society works with the major fair. Heck, cutting the entire article in half would double its effectiveness. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 20:18, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
A group of active editors in both the Selena Gomez and Justin Bieber articles have made a decision to omit any and all references to their relationship. I find this decision to be in violation of our best practices and virtually unsupported by the preponderance of reliable sources on the subject. Although I am uninvolved in this issue, having only just noticed this glaring omission, I would like to hear from uninvolved editors who have not contributed to either article and are willing to take a look at this problem with fresh eyes. However, if you are involved in contributing to these articles and you wish to share your opinion, please note your involvement. Viriditas ( talk) 04:08, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
What can I say, I really don't know what else to do so I'm here. This is the discussion, but really, apart from "it's relevant" no one has a convincing argument. The problem is best described below the aforementioned paragraph, under the RfC heading that yielded virtually no response. Here is how I presented the question – hopefully, this will be settled in an encyclopedic manner:
<- Hearfourmewesique, since Malik has separated out a section below I'll respond here. With respect, it's not a good use of your time to try to explain your position to me because I think your approach is fundamentally flawed. We just reflect what reliable sources say in a way that is consistent with the policies and guidelines of the project. To me this is just cold, heartless information processing. Assuming for the sake of argument that I had some personal views on the issues that mattered to anyone, they still wouldn't be part of the decision procedures. I honestly don't care in the slightest about the words themselves; resident, settler, colonist, disputed, occupied, Israeli village, Israeli settlement, Israeli colony, West Bank, Judea and Samaria etc etc even though these words have great symbolic significance for many people for reasons that are a bit puzzling but are always irrelevant to content decisions. The objective is simply to maximise policy compliance by ensuring that the language we use is consistent with the plurality of reliable sources (noting important discrepencies and disagreements over language of course) in a demonstrable evidence based way by actually properly sampling RS-world and faithfully reflecting what we find.
Years have been wasted in the I-P conflict topic area with people arguing and edit warring over which string of words properly describes something according to policy when sampling a large set of RS usually makes the optimal solution quite obvious. My point is that an editor may think something is biased or neutral but we have to actually know whether something is biased or neutral according to policy and be able to demonstrate that using evidence sampled from RS-world. When it comes to words like resident vs settler, occupied vs disputed, what is in Israel and what over the green line, the results from sampling of RS and the constraints imposed by policy are clear. There's no need to waste time on arguing about wording issues like these or to use words that are inconsistent with RS. That's not to say that your concerns about detailed wording tweaks in the article's lead in question here are necessarily invalid (although I personally think they are). That's up to others to decide, I won't be participating.
My point was simply that I don't think you can reliably see bias, you shouldn't assume that you can and that you should be concerned about that in the topic area as it will bring you into conflict with both policy and editors. I'm not sure which sources you meant by "leftist propaganda" but if they are mainstream sources that other RS and the community regards as reliable, dismissing them as leftist propaganda is probably another thing you should be concerned about as it will compromise your ability to make proper evidence based assessments of policy compliance. This isn't meant as criticism. There are a number of topics about various places and issues, mostly technical but also political that I'm probably too close to to reliably see bias or properly stick to policy without messing up. I don't edit them. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:41, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Big problems at Medical_torture#Asserted_medical_or_professional_complicity but I don't have time to clean it up right now. Also includes at least one severe BLP violation. causa sui ( talk) 00:59, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Some editors at Astrology are intent on adding the following criticism of a peer-reveiwed study in Nature into the article (see here for full context: [ [2]]):
The sources used are: Astrological Journal, Correlation, and Journal of Scientific Exploration, all of which are non-peer-reviewed fringe sources. Nevertheless, they are being used to challenge a genuine peer-reviewed scientific study, using WP:PARITY and the fact they they are identified as fringe journals as a justification.
The noteworthiness the criticisms is questionable as none of these criticisms have been discussed in reliable sources. There is no evidence that they are part of mainstream scientific discourse.
Your input would be appreciated at the article's talk page: [ [3]]. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 01:44, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
He seems to have been a genuinely notable guy; but this article, apparently poorly translated from one or more other languages, is absolutely worshipful (as well as being poorly formatted and ungrammatical). I've taken a very shallow pass at it, but would really appreciate some help here, ideally from a Russian-speaking editor. -- Orange Mike | Talk 17:19, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
A report regarding this article recently appeared at WP:COIN. The article is about an Austrian psychotherapist whose article on De WP has reportedly been somewhat contentious. Several users have come to En WP from De WP and feel that other editors' aims conflict with WP and have cited the German article being locked several times. Some editors there feel that there's a never-ending fight between editors creating an encyclopedic article and members of a fan club who have resorted to socking to push their point of view.
As there's no evidence of a close connection besides claims of fanclub membership, I bring this report here and have asked the involved editors to discuss the issue here and ask for the help of the members/watchers of this noticeboard. OlYeller21 Talktome 19:01, 8 November 2011 (UTC) @Robertsan - stop vandalism because of bad emotions, like on the other page is told by OlYeller21"it sounds like the article is good in its current shape " and by the way - in the German version wie have "und wirkte maßgeblich an der Organisation der ersten Regenbogenparade 1996 auf der Wiener Ringstrasse mit" and its more the correct version than Yours - by the way an version preferred by Elisabeht (see German discussion) - because it is the truth - again - without Mihcelides no CSD at this time -read the source and like all your unreading, ignorierin and inaccuracies - McWien without an a. So stop vandalism because of envy and hate - article was good in the beforerobertsan-shape - you are the man on a mission i guess.-- Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx ( talk) 08:36, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
I brought this here both because the user in question claimed it was a POV issue. I think it's a simple question of sources, but it would be very, very silly to bring these sources to RSN...
CNN, Radio Netherlands (link is dead but article is available elsewhere), and Agence France-Presse call the Party for Freedom (Partij voor de Vrijheid) anti-Muslim (as do the New York Times, the Telegraph (link is dead but the article is available elsewhere), the Economist, etc.). Given this, are we justified in placing the article in Category:Anti-Muslim organizations from the Netherlands?
– Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 17:13, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
And now we've got the same issue at Danish People's Party, where the sources include the Guardian, the Seattle Times, and the Stephen Roth Institute for the Study of Contemporary Antisemitism and Racism, and at Stop Islamization of America, where the sources include the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Mondoweiss, and the Huffington Post. This isn't about whether Wilders has denied being anti-Muslim; this is about two editors' campaign to deny that anyone is anti-Muslim. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 19:54, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
With 119,000 hits for anti-Islam [6] and 189,000 for anti-muslim [7] this is not about "cherry-picking" but about terminology. The dichotomy of "anti-Islam" and "anti-muslim" is about the same as with "anti-gay" and "homophob" - nonexisting. BTW both lemmata link to Islamophobia. -- 78.53.37.169 ( talk) 12:38, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Edit req, Talk:Mylo Xyloto#Edit request from , 2 November 2011. Thx. Chzz ► 06:14, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
The Parity section of the WP:FRINGE guidelines is a favorite of fringe apologists, who interpret it as carte blanche to use just about any sourcing they please to support OR and SYNTH in articles on fringe topics. It is also misused to present a fringe topic from the in-universe persepective fringe topic in articles on the topic.
I've started a discussion of the talk page of the WP:FRINGE guidelines. This isn't a formal RfC, but a request for open-ended input on the question whether the Parity section needs to be re-worded for clarity. To keep the discussion centralized, please comment on the talk page of the article, here: [ [8]]. Your input would be greatly appreciated. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 20:31, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
I wrote a summary of some criticisms of the movement, using the same words as the sources. The sources were were themselves describing those criticisms. It was challenged and removed apparently because it sounds POV. I would like outside observers to take a look at it. Description here. Thanks all! Be——Critical 00:02, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
There has been little outside input, and there have been no arguments offered which invalidate the sources or indicate that my summary of them was unrepresentative. All arguments seem to boil down to dislike of what's being said, not arguments that it is somehow out of Wikipedia process or rules. This isn't how it's supposed to go. You're supposed to be able to summarize good sources, and if you do it properly but people still object you're supposed to be able to call in outside help to build consensus. Anybody out there? Be——Critical 00:54, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
There has been a recent attempt to include in articles on sites within the Golan Heights maps that show the territory as being in Israel. This is an extreme minority claim that is rejected by nearly every single country on the planet. I think it is an obvious violation of NPOV to claim Syrian territory as being within Israel and the coordinated attempt to do so at several articles has reached a breaking point. Is it acceptable for a map to be used in the infobox of an article on a site in the Golan as showing the territory in Israel? nableezy - 17:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi, can someone please look at the edits of user:Mar4d in the Afghans in Pakistan. He is editing with anti-Afghan POV, trying to make Afghan refugees living in Pakistan look veyr bad and make his own Pakistanis look good. Can someone please neutralize his edits because when I do it he keeps reverting it and I'm not in the mood for this childish revert war game. Thanks.-- NorthernPashtun ( talk) 16:46, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Just as an FYI, there is a debate about The merger of "China" (Chinese civilization) and "People's Republic of China" into one article - Talk:China#The_move_was_surprising_-_7_opinions_on_the_move
Even though there is a current debate over whether "China" should be simply defined as the "People's Republic of China" - some admins argue that POVTITLE allows the usage of POV names if most people in English refer to the subject by the POV name, even if the POV dispute is still active.
WhisperToMe ( talk) 04:12, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Trolling by banned user Mikemikev. This IP range has now been blocked for a month.
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"Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy" (scientific paper) is about an argument made by Richard Lewontin that the fact that there is more genetic variation within races than between them invalidates the concept of race. This argument has been discredited in two ways.
Maunus has removed this second dispositive point from the article absurdly claiming it is not relevant to Lewontin's fallacy. [26] The bias Maunus has displayed is transparent. I imagine he especially doesn't like this point because it directly contradicts an attempted "face saving" quote Maunus has added from ideologically aligned Jonathan Marks. In this Marks claims that races need to be "principally homogeneous" to have validity. The Long quote proves that even species are not "principally homogeneous". The Kaplan and Marks quotes also shift the goalposts and defend the position that the variation that exists does not structure into races, which is an entirely separate question (ie. truly irrelevant), and one which is currently unresolved. I find it absurd that such ideology based dissimulation is considered relevant, while simple truth is excised because editors do not like it. If you want Wikipedia to be a place where editors "big up" their ideological heroes, regardless of their integrity and competence, Maunus is your man. If you want Wikipedia to offer the truth, I suggest he be sanctioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.116.166.166 ( talk) 16:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC) |
No, I have not raised the issue on the article's discussion page. I have done this ad nauseum on the related Protect IP Act page and devoutly wish to have no further discussions with Xenophrenic. I have spent most of my free time for the past week on that page, which came to my attention through a third editor's despairing RfC, and I still owe comment on the Wikiquette case that she opened. (( Personal attack removed)) -Xenophrenic) Discussion, to put it mildly, has mostly not been fruitful.
Nor can I conceive of any conceivable reason to remove fact and cn tags. Quite outside of the doubts I may (and do) have about the foundedness of the statements attributed to various politicians, they require attribution at a minimum.
Some of the other edits ( diff) also speak for themselves, for instance:
A couple of of points -- some but not all of the edits change edits that I myself made. Changes are fine and even good. Changes that make the article less reliable are not. If the editor feels a need to change recent edits, the trend should be to a middle ground, no? Documentation would also be good. Elinruby ( talk) 15:44, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
In brief: the company was linked to the Taliban, but denies it.
Editor Bouteloua ( talk · contribs) acted in accord with best COI practice, and placed an edit-request on the talk page. However, I did not thing it presented the information in a neutral way.
The editor has now adjusted the suggestion, and asked me to re-assess it [28].
Because of the somewhat controversial nature, I'd be grateful if others could take a look - or preferably process the edit-request.
It's Talk:Huawei#Suggesting an addition
Thanks, Chzz ► 22:36, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Hello! I'm not sure as to whom I should address this. I hope the right person reads this. In your fine article on Browning Arms, you mention many of the fine inventions and patents which were originated by John Browning and the susequent Browning Arms Co. What you missed was the Ballistic Optimizing Shooting System, better known as the B.O.S.S. system. It would be good to know who invented this simple, yet unique and helpful system. I understand that it is also patented by Browning Arms - only they make it. It would be good to include that either as a sepparate article, or as part of the Browning Arms article. Thank you. Vladimir Derugin ovgd@sbcglobal.net — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.101.69 ( talk) 04:46, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm posting this here as an effort for a dispute resolution, so some help here would be greatly appreciated. The discussion at WT:WikiProject Sailor Moon#Is this correct?WP:Sailor Moon (The beginning starts with a different issue so if you're reading it, it may be best to skip the first few paragraphs). The question with whether that article is a WP:POVFORK or a legitimate WP:SPINOUT article. The POV contention is that it places undue emphasis on the importance (ie the overall impact and not the quantity of sources) of the English localization of Sailor Moon vs. the Japanese when sources do not support this. The counter-argument is that more sources cover the English version and its a natural spinout article.∞ 陣 内 Jinnai 23:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Malkinann, is your point that because the article passes WP:GNG as you argue, then WP:POVFORK and WP:SPLIT do not have to be considered? patsw ( talk) 16:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
These guidelines get applied independently of each other: If you create a WP:POVFORK then passing WP:GNG is irrelevant. If the consensus opposes a WP:SPLIT, passing GNG is irrelevant. If fact, asserting a article passes GNG is only relevant when it is challenged that it does not pass GNG. patsw ( talk) 01:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Independently but they're all meant for all articles. Still...malkinann says its a WP:SPINOUT but its more like an attempt of WP:CONTENTFORK but focused on one specific POV which jinnai said is againt NPOV. Lucia Black ( talk) 01:23, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
the article is rather inconsistent. Its all about english releases and distribution along with alterations made. There is heavy undue weight made specifically for the emphasis of the english localization. Not onlyis it all based off undue weight but the content can easily merge to other more relevant articles. Which for some reason seems to be ignored whenever mentioned. Lucia Black ( talk) 21:18, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I am deeply concerned in your flawed perspective. The article is again separated in two convenient medias, release information being merged to their independent articles such as list of sailor moon chapters/episodes. All is left is english development and alterations which seems to have specific changes of undue weight so then trimming to general. The only way this can be justified is adding reception over it. The problem isn't that the article can't be merged its whether you willing to accept it. And its not over style. The information is best suited in the main article and the other two daughter articles I already mention. An anime article would be more reasonable than this article. Lucia Black ( talk) 00:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Not true, they are part of others that are more notable. The topic itself notable because its made uup of several pieces that are best suited for other articles. And again, not organization issue, its the fact that the article acts as a main article. If it were a valid topic, then it would have to have some sort of reception. Separating english information from the main article because of original research. Yes, it is original research by implying it a general topic but. Its not. Article is made up of several pieces. Lucia Black ( talk) 01:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Please reread it...you say what the article is, but its not that...my questioning has been because you have said false things about the article. The article isn't solely about what you say it is. The article isn't just about localization, but broadcast history and release information of english releases exclusively, information much more vital to the main article or at least to the anime aspect. This is not a valid spin out considering the situation both this article and the article it was spun out are in. The article may have started out as a weak pin out but clearly its not relevant anymore, new information has made it bias to english information (what should be accepted universally and intergrated into the main article). Lucia Black ( talk) 10:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
That's the only thing that has been consistent, regardless. I take back that you have not read the article. Instead, I say you don't understand what the article is trully about. Spin out leads to daughter articles however not every daughter article isn't notable (that saying spin out is just a way of avoiding the word split). For one, the article relates to english versions of sailor moon, violating NPOV. Spinning out a Pov of the main topic. For example, character articles don't get often split unless it has specific reception to that character to prove it being more important than the rest of the characters in the list article. This article does not justify why it should exist. Regardless if considered a spin out of editing of anime in english distribution, the article uses summary style mainly on sailor moon. Its not really a daughter article of editing of anime in english distribution because the article isn't dependent on the editing of anime in english distribution, although it is related to it. That article is also filled with bias and unverifiable claims, so in the end, a spin out of that article isn't justified.
Saying english versions of sailor moon is notable, is saying the basic building blocks of the main article being split into a daughter article, without clarification of why it needed to be spun out to be an independent. Spinning out media is one thing because its not a pov, its media. However, this is pov of sailor moon media. This clearly fails NPOV......there's no two ways about it. Calling it a spin out doesn't justify because the article isn't merely about just localization. Lucia Black ( talk) 22:16, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Its POVFORK, and the only reason why it looks like SPINOUT is because all english related info was forked into its own separate section when it can go to its respected sections. Lucia Black ( talk) 23:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Stop it. Your the one getting uncivil at this point and yes accusation of povfork does stick. You seem to assume if its spinout, it can't be povfork. So I'm going to ask you what povfork means to you. Lucia Black ( talk) 00:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
The main article also isn't properly organized. It appears like a proper spinout because the main article separates overall media from the english versions which is unacceptable. Lucia Black ( talk)
I'm going to deliberately ignore the organization card you so effortlessly bring up because at this point jinnai and I have made our point very clear. This isn't for organization, this is for nuetrality. I don't know how that keeps being missed. Lucia Black ( talk) 00:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
POVFORK is a type of spinout which jinnai made perfectly clear 13-14 comments ago. Again....this is not for the sake of organization, not for the sake of organization, not for the sake of organization to the 100th power. Lucia Black ( talk) 03:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Jinnai and I propose changes of presentation that involve organization. You seem to think organization is the main reason while not intending affect presentation. Lucia Black ( talk) 03:56, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
The article's notability is based on the main article as you said a while back as part of summary style, but the fork itself is based on pov influenced section therefore povfork regardless if its existence of sources. Povfork isn't all about not having enough sources. Lucia Black ( talk) 04:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm not even considering MOS-AM and will not need to prove my point. And merely discussing the existence of the change is one thing, impact is what helps separate/reception/legacy is usually what helps articles become independent. This is why there are some franchise articles that don't merit their own individual manga or anime article but still merit a list of episodes and list of chapters.
Here's the thing...every reason you have said here does not counter against POVFORK. Not one. Now I hope with that, you put things into a different perspective.
And this is where the starting/finish line of the endless cycle is at which I'm sure we passed for the 50th time.
You continuously mention subjective things such as feeling the need to go into further detail. This is a POVFORK.....and it proves it just by the second paragraph which I quoted:
You try to counter POVFORK with notability. Lucia Black ( talk) 09:16, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
The organization I proposed was for the sake of nuetrality, distribution info of manga and anime belong in those articles. Localization in the main article where most of the media is covered. And you miss the point of the quote as it doesn't matter if it was done with in agreement or disagreement, it was still the course of action taken. And despite you claiming the sources provide reception/legacy/impact the article barely provides any. Most of it from what I see are petitions. But the point being that this article is a big big POV that was split from the main article. The articles that revolve around english info to be notable yet it splits how english media was produced. So in a way its production info, ut it doesn't stop there it also has release information.
I believe you don't know what povfork is...and as uncivil as you may think it sounds. Covering our understanding of npov is the only way we can spot the twisted turn within the reasoning. How is this not a povfork and what would it look like if it were one? Lucia Black ( talk) 10:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
But not as a whole topic. Lucia Black ( talk) 16:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
We need some eyes and attention from people familiar with contemporary literature on race at Mongoloid race, Negroid race, Caucasian race and Nordic race. They are all entrenched in a pre-1950es understanding of the concept of race and contain little if any references to contemporary literature or debates. ·ʍaunus· snunɐw· 00:30, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
An editor on the Taliban article insists it is not neutral to write that the Pakistan Inter-Services Intelligence [1] [2] have given aid to the Taliban. This is widely reported as fact, and the two sources I added to the article are from the academic press. He is insistent on it being an American intel agency only POV and I assume he means this is not mainstream thinking due to this. So is this not neutral? The Last Angry Man ( talk) 09:38, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
The issues with the current version are as follows:
As of now I've given the editor these citations against his POV: [29] [30] [31] [32]. Although he agreed about these being reliable refutations but he insists that these are 'press releases' of Pakistan and not the mainstream thinking in response to which I've given him a mainstream citation [33] to prove my point. Further more the citation he added (reliable or not) itself states that it is involving certain prejudice/stereotyping to analyze Pakistan's role [34]. In addition there is a whole dedicated article on the ~10 year war of Pakistan with Taliban & their allies War in North-West Pakistan which proves the above editor's POV wrong. You might also note that the editor himself is using WP:WEASELs like 'widely accepted fact' to push his POV and is not following WP:HEAR as well inspite my repeated clarifications. A detailed discussion should be reviewed at Talk:Taliban#Content_removed_.26_POV_tag.3F.
I'll like to point out whether or not he is right on this matter, the subject is still a controversy (as per citation contradictions) and the article should be written in a neutral way in anycase and the infobox inclusion as per that is completely unjustifiable. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 10:36, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
The Last Angry Man is absolutely right. Here some more sources to back that up:
JCAla ( talk) 13:22, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Most of what you write is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Also, you can't use unsourced things in wikipedia as a source for other wikipedia articles. Some things in the articles are disputed, but I don't want to open another discussion about that here. The following is the central issue:
Question: Does Pakistan give substantial support to the Afghan Taliban? Answer: Yes.
Question: Does Pakistan seriously move against the Afghan Taliban ( Mullah Omar, Haqqani network or even the Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin) in order to defeat them? Answer: No.
This qualifies Pakistan as being listed as an "ally" (for lack of a better term) of the Taliban. It is as simple as that. And if the ISI thinks it is justified to do what it does, why is it, that it is always in denial? Why not honestly state your case? Is it ashamed of its own policy? There is no reason to hide from a morally justified cause, is there?!
Pakistan is on Pakistan's side, so far we did agree. So what is Pakistan's side? This war and the underlying conflict did not start in 2001, not even in 1996, it started a very long time ago. Pakistan has always had a very clear policy concerning Afghanistan and that policy did not change just because NATO entered the scene in late 2001. Since 1994, the Taliban play an integral element in Pakistan's strategy and until this very day ISI perceives there is no viable alternative.
Besides, the Taliban article deals with the Taliban in a general manner, not just the current phase. Pakistan, not only today, but also in the past, has been an ally - even mastermind - of the Taliban. That alone, qualifies it to be mentioned as an ally.
The fact, that Pakistan denies any support to the Taliban, really holds no weight considering history. Even while thousands of Pakistani forces were fighting inside Afghanistan, even while the Pakistani military was planning the Taliban military campaigns from 1995-2001, Pakistan ( Musharraf's temper is well-known) was outraged at any suggestion it would provide support to the Taliban. Just to recall history 1996-2001:
"The Pakistan government has repeatedly denied that it provides any military support to the Taliban ..." Human Rights Watch 2001
"When asked 'why Pakistan supports the Taliban', an [Pakistani] official replied, 'We don’t support but inter-act with the Taliban'." George Washington University 2001
All the while Pakistan was doing the following:
"Of all the foreign powers involved in efforts to sustain and manipulate the ongoing fighting [in Afghanistan], Pakistan is distinguished both by the sweep of its objectives and the scale of its efforts, which include soliciting funding for the Taliban, bankrolling Taliban operations, providing diplomatic support as the Taliban's virtual emissaries abroad, arranging training for Taliban fighters, recruiting skilled and unskilled manpower to serve in Taliban armies, planning and directing offensives, providing and facilitating shipments of ammunition and fuel, and ... directly providing combat support. ... as many as thirty trucks a day were crossing the Pakistan border; ... some of these convoys were carrying artillery shells, tank rounds, and rocket-propelled grenades. ... Pakistani landmines have been found in Afghanistan; they include both antipersonnel and antivehicle mines. Pakistan's army and intelligence services, principally the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI), contribute to making the Taliban a highly effective military force. ... senior Pakistani military and intelligence officers help plan and execute major military operations. ... Pakistani aircraft assisted with troop rotations of Taliban forces during combat operations ... The extent of this support has attracted widespread international criticism. In November 2000 the U.N. secretary-general implicitly accused Pakistan of providing such support. ... The démarche listed features of the [2000] assault on Taloqan that suggested the Taliban had received outside assistance in planning and carrying out the attack. These features were uncharacteristic of the Taliban's known capabilities, including the length of the preparatory artillery fire ... On several occasions between 1995 and 1999, the Taliban's military skills improved abruptly on the eve of particularly pivotal battles, and in one case, declined just as abruptly after a credible threat of intervention was made by an outside power. During its offensives in 1995 against Herat and in 1996 against Kabul, for example, the Taliban suffered heavy losses after mounting attacks against veteran government forces [of Ahmad Shah Massoud]. ... the rout was such that some analysts predicted that the Taliban phenomenon had run its course. ... Initial defeats were followed by a period of quiet; then Taliban troops mounted new attacks, displaying capabilities that had been conspicuously lacking before. ... maneuvers that were more characteristic of a professional army-specifically, of professional officers and noncommissioned officers trained in the practice of mobile warfare-than of Afghan mujahidin. ... in August 1998, the Taliban forces that were advancing eastward from the city against [anti-Taliban] resistance [forces] ... suddenly faltered and lost their unusual combat proficiency. At the time, the disappearance of Iranian officials had provoked a major crisis with Iran and a substantial Iranian military force (ultimately close to 250,000 men) was massing on the Afghan/Iranian border. The Iranian government explicitly blamed Pakistan for the incident (Pakistan had given assurances for the diplomats' safety) and threatened military intervention if the diplomats were not produced. The [following] sudden decline in Taliban military effectiveness, ... was caused by the withdrawal of Pakistani military advisers as part of an effort by Pakistan to prevent the crisis [with Iran] from getting out of control." Human Rights Watch 2001
Now for today.
(Mullen was said to be close to the Pakistani army's chief of staff, Gen Ashfaq Kayani. Indeed, Adm Mullen is thought to have made more visits to Pakistan than any other senior US official or chief of staff in recent times.)
The Last Angry Man has provided further academic sources (including from the Stanford Press which I don't think I need to repeat).
In case anyone wonders why Pakistan should support the Taliban. The following could provide some clues:
1. Indo-Pakistani wars and conflicts
"Dubbing Durand line as a line of hatred Afghan President Hamid Karzai has said he does not accept this line as it has raised a wall between the two brothers [Afghanistan's Pashtuns and Pakistan's Pashtuns]." [49]
"Afghanistan and Balochistan should form a legal team to challenge the illegal occupation of Afghan territories and Balochistan by Pakistan in the International Court of Justice. Once the Durand Line Agreement is declared illegal, it will result in the return of Pakistan-occupied territories back to Afghanistan. Also, Balochistan will be declared a country that was forcibly invaded through use of force by the Pakistanis ... After Pakistan vacates territories belonging to Afghanistan and Balochistan, a new boarder should be demarked amicably to determine Baloch dominated areas to become the new Balochistan, and Pashtun dominated areas to be merged into Afghanistan. ... “Pakistan is a completely superfluous and artificially created spot on the world map that has become a breeding ground for extremism, and trouble that would be best done away with.”" [50]
Pakistan needs the Taliban as an "Islamic" counterforce to Pashtun nationalist ambitions which would effectively cut Pakistan in half. The Taliban's interpretation of and focus on Islam (rather than nationalism) is meant to be a binding force between Pakistan and Afghanistan. The non-Pashtun ethnicities of Afghanistan are perceived to be too close to India. That is why Pakistan insists on Pashtun's ruling Afghanistan, but these Pashtuns need to be the Taliban not nationalists following i. e. the way of Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan.
3. There are certain dreams surrounding Islamic prophecies, and black banners from Khorasan. JCAla ( talk) 20:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
But, ok, let's wait for other people to provide their opinion. JCAla ( talk) 10:38, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Can we get a response here??????? -- lTopGunl ( talk) 06:18, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree with both The Last Angry Man and Darkness Shines. And as I mentioned before, the United States Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff until October 2011, Mike Mullen, officially called the Haqqani network (Taliban's most destructive element) the "veritable arm of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence Agency". [55] That renders irrelevant your, TopGun, argumentation concerning "official" positions. JCAla ( talk) 16:55, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
First of all, your "sources" are not "newer". Second, do you even read your own sources? Besides that in your sources the term "alliance" is not being used by any officials, the following is written in your sources:
Now, there seems to be a confusion on your part what the term " allies" means. JCAla ( talk) 20:19, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
All your quotes, except maybe the Zardari one (which doesn't really matter given all the Pakistani official denial), are NOT, and I am repeating this, are NOT from officials, but terms used by some Western journalists in the past and one Pakistani journalist in the present. The most recent official position of the US government, the Indian government, the government of Iran, the Russian government, the European governments is: Pakistan keeps supporting the Afghan Taliban. Afghan Taliban commanders have admitted this. Thus, Pakistan can be listed as an ally of the Taliban on the wikipedia article.
Maybe you fail to understand one thing. We are talking about the infobox on the Afghan Taliban article. The US and Pakistan may work together on some issues concerning Pakistan itself i. e. economy, health and supporting elements in the Pakistani army to keep control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal in order to keep some sort of stability. Here the common interest is relative stability in Pakistan considering the nuclear arsenal.
When it comes to Afghanistan, however, Pakistan and the US followed the same policy up until early 2001, then the US started to change sides, with the Bush administration finalizing a new American approach to the War in Afghanistan (1996-2001) in August 2001, just before 9/9 and 9/11. Since then, Pakistan is certainly no ally of the US (and people have provided you with very reliable sources for this including this being the current official position of the US and many other countries) when it comes to the Afghan Taliban. NATO did not start a war in 2001, it entered into one in which Pakistan and the Afghan Taliban already formed a firm alliance. And even today, Pakistan perceives there to be no alternative for its support to the Afghan Taliban. And today, Pakistan is supporting the Afghan Taliban to kill Americans in Afghanistan. The reasons for this support have been mentioned above. This makes Pakistan an ally of the Afghan Taliban (when it comes to the Afghan Taliban). JCAla ( talk) 09:00, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Btw, this doesn't seem to be making much progress, we should list it in an RFC. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 09:39, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Look, you are restating your POV again and again, while this discussion doesn't even make sense. First, wikipedia is about facts, it's not about mirroring government positions or in some cases propaganda. Second, the term "alliance" is certainly not being applied to the issue of the Afghan Taliban. It has been established by the academia, the statements of major government and military officials from different countries in the world, by statements of Taliban commanders and a few ISI officials themselves, that Pakistan supports the Afghan Taliban versus NATO and the government of Afghanistan. Thus, Pakistan is an ally of the Afghan Taliban. Three editors have agreed (one, you, is opposed). Unless someone else wants to join this discussion, this issue has been solved by majority vote. JCAla ( talk) 09:40, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
It's important to represent the situation fairly here. If the Pakistani government has denied the claim, then it's their word against another's. Per WP:WEIGHT, you need to represent all claims fairly, so having Pakistan there without caveat is showing only one side of the story. It's also important to note that you're showing them not just as being involved with each other, but as allies. One link provided above shows that the ISI does not consider the Taliban an ally, so does the Taliban consider its relations with the ISI as an alliance? This is the kind of information I would expect to see in the sources attached to such statements. At the moment, in the infobox, the sources given are self-published and neither mentions an alliance. The references given in the lead are from more reliable sources, but still jump around the subject. So the primary concern I'm seeing is a sourcing one. Unless the sources provided state outright that this is a military alliance in conjunction with the war in Afghanistan, then labelling it as such is original research. So at the moment, I would suggest removing Pakistan from the infobox and, given the controversial nature of the subject, strictly sticking to the sources when it comes to the body of the article. Nightw 07:31, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Nightw, I'd like to know if you are familiar with the topic? Then, maybe you missed some of the reliable links given above. The Afghan Taliban are often referred to as an "asset" of Pakistan.
JCAla ( talk) 09:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
comment, Nightw is absolutely right. this is a clear example of wp:synth.-- mustihussain 18:35, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't share your insistence on the particular usage of the term "alliance" since a "helpful association" has clearly been described by all the different sources above. But, here we go, the term "alliance" has been used extensively in the past to describe the relationship between the Afghan Taliban and Pakistan.
The Taliban were also called the following by regional experts like Amin Saikal:
Presently, you can also find this term being applied. An academic book review recently published by the Institute of Peace & Conflict Studies (IPCS) has the title:
There are also articles:
And academic studies:
So, this is really not original research. JCAla ( talk) 09:52, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Nightw, I thought you were someone providing a neutral input. But I have increasingly doubts about it when you suggest a discussion to be closed when there is a 3-3 situation (3 editors against, 3 editors for). No one here has provided more sources than me, accusing me on not elaborating, is ridiculous. I will tell you my position one more last time:
The ISI is widely described by reliable sources as
All of these very reliable WP:SOURCES, verifiable WP:VERIFY and secondary WP:SECONDARY sources are stating the same independently from one another. Most describe the relation between the ISI and Taliban as something going beyond an "alliance". They use the term "proxy", "asset" or "geopolitical instrument". But there is no such category in the infobox. That is why I gave also sources which explicitly use the term needed for the infobox. I cited three recent academic sources [101] [102] [103], which independently from one another refer to the ISI and Taliban as allies. So WP:SYN is not the case. I cannot "imply" something which is clearly mentioned in the sources.
All that you brought up against all these very reliable sources is the "official denial of Pakistan" (although the New York Times cited unofficial acknowledgement of a "senior ISI official"). The official denial has always been part of Pakistan's policy as proven, again, by very reliable sources. From 1996-2001 thousands of Pakistani nationals, on the order of Pakistani President Musharraf, were fighting alongside the Taliban and Bin Laden in Afghanistan. Pakistani generals were running the Taliban military operations. At the very same time Musharraf strongly denied any support to the Taliban. My two Pakistani wikipedia colleagues, TopGun and Mar4d, themselves are very much aware of all these facts, but they do not want them to be shown on wikipedia for their own reasons I could only speculate on, which I won't do since we assume WP:GOODFAITH here on wikipedia. Very reliable sources prove a strong military alliance between the Taliban and Pakistan for the very time Pakistan was in strong denial.
Considering all these sources it is clearly you who gives WP:UNDUE weight to a minority position which has been proven to be a deception in the past. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views. JCAla ( talk) 10:15, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
JCAla, do not count me in these votes you keep announcing. This is not a vote, and I have not voted. I have presented to you the problems with your edits in regards to policy, which is what we do on this noticeboard. You appear to be unwilling to listen and are simply plastering the page with rants. You have now accused me of bias because you assume I disagree with the idea your sources are presenting. I have requested admin closure of this thread at AN. Nightw 14:49, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
This is factually incorrect, T P. These reliable sources have used the term "alliance" and "ally" for the current relationship between Pakistan and the Taliban:
JCAla ( talk) 18:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I've tagged
Talk:Taliban for RFC and transcluded this section there. --
lTopGunl (
talk) 11:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
There is a misconception on wikipedia regarding the nationality of certain notable Irish figures. The term Anglo-Irish is being bandied instead of Irish as a nationality. Many of the figures involved are Irish, but come from the Anglo-Irish social class, it is not a nationality, and there is a lot of inconsistency regarding its use, an example is Jonathan Swift an Irish man but for some reason is disregarded by a minute section of editors who refuse to acknowledge that he is Irish and Anglo-Irish (but only in the respect that he comes from that social class in the article), and then other articles like Oscar Wilde who is Irish but of Anglo-Irish culture, he is renowned internationally as Irish (not Anglo-Irish because it is a class not a nationality) I don't understand it, a tiny segment of editors are trying to ignore the fact are coming up with all this pseudo-social/historical claptrap to make it difficult for observers for whatever reason, I am being accused of breaching Wikipedia:POV, which IMO I am not, please comment. Sheodred ( talk) 20:57, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Recent edits by a user here and at Henry Morton Stanley have sought to minimize critical views of colonialism, adding content extolling European intervention, per article talk page [106]. None of this is sourced, and additional attention from those knowledgeable in history will be appreciated. 99.12.242.97 ( talk) 15:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
I would like to immediately revert the Hugo Chavez article to this version: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez&oldid=400342217
The debates have not been resolved, and I have a feeling that the above revision is at least closer to NPOV than the current revision. So the above revision should be restored, and that should become the basis of the future article.
WhisperToMe ( talk)
I have edited on highly contentious articles (Anarchism, Libertarianism, Mass Killing under Communist regimes, Holodomor). I value high quality sourcing and appropriate weighting policy very highly.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | Archive 26 | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | → | Archive 35 |
The Conspiracy theory article is having some POV problems. I am trying to follow WP:LEADCITE and am supported by Mystichumwipe and Mystylplx but we have editors reverting under the guise of a consensus which with the three of us think doesn't exist.
Here is what I want to put in:
A conspiracy theory in its broadest sense is "simply a theory that posits a conspiracy--a secret plan on the part of some group to influence events by partly secret means."[1][2][3][4] but it is also used as a derogatory term to denote ridiculous, misconceived, paranoid, unfounded, outlandish or irrational theories.[5]
1) "But if a conspiracy theory is simply a theory that posits a conspiracy – a secret plan on the part of some group to influence events by partly secret means – and if a conspiracy theorist is someone who subscribes to a conspiracy theory, then the conventional wisdom itself is not just suspect, but obviously absurd."(Pigden, Charles R (2007) "Conspiracy Theories and the Conventional Wisdom" Episteme: A Journal of Social Epistemology Volume 4, Issue 2, Edinburgh University Press pp. 222 DOI: 10.1353/epi.2007.0017.)
2) "What is a conspiracy theory? The discussion so far suggests that a conspiracy theory is simply a conspiratorial explanation, and that an explanation is conspiratorial if it postulates a group of agents working together in secret, often, though perhaps not always, for a sinister purpose." (Coady, David Conspiracy theories: the philosophical debate Ashgate Publishing Page 2) later on page 140 Coady reiterates that at its most basic level a conspiracy theory is the theory of a conspiracy.
3) Balaban, Oded (2005) Interpreting conflict: Israeli-Palestinian Negotiations at Camp David II and Beyond Peter Lang Page 66
4) Parish, Jane (2001) The age of anxiety: conspiracy theory and the human sciences Wiley-Blackwell page 94
5) "conspiracy theory n (1909) the theory that an event or phenomenon occurs as a result of a conspiracy between interested parties. Originally a neutral term, but more recent usage (dating from around the mid 1960s) is often somewhat derogatory, implying a paranoid tendency to see the hand of some malign covert agency in any unexplained event." 20th Century Words (1999) John Ayto, Oxford University Press, p. 15.
Keeping WP:LEADCITE in mind just what is wrong with this lead?-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 20:09, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
or should sayA conspiracy theory explains an event as being the result of an alleged plot by a covert group or organization or, more broadly, the idea that important political, social or economic events are the products of secret plots that are largely unknown to the general public.( permalink)
One side asserts that the first summary is accurate and the second is an attempt to cleanse "conspiracy theory" to remove its negative connotations so it is merely a theory about a conspiracy rather than a cuckoo belief as is actually the case. Johnuniq ( talk) 23:05, 28 October 2011 (UTC)A conspiracy theory in its broadest sense is "simply a theory that posits a conspiracy--a secret plan on the part of some group to influence events by partly secret means;" but it is also used as a derogatory term to denote ridiculous, misconceived, paranoid, unfounded, outlandish or irrational theories.( permalink)
Nuujinn, the version you and several other editors support has NO references to back it up--not a single one. Are you and those other editors now claiming that a book published by the freaking Oxford University Press doesn't know what it is talking about without thing to back that up?!? Do any of you understand how insane that position is? When I challenged Knight's claim of the phrase first appearing in 1909 I at least had reliable sources to back up my position; so far all we have seen contesting my position is a bunch of empty OR rhetoric and not a single RS backing up any of it up.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 00:30, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Specifically the animal welfare section. Another editor has periodically made edits that, in my opinion, are an attempt at slanting the section towards an anti-chuckwagon racing POV. See my reversion from yesterday's changes here. I feel that the changes made do not reflect the sources that pre-existed, while new additions are from advocacy sites and blogs that do not qualify as RSes. Knowing the controversy exists, I went to significant lengths to try and present both sides as neutrally as possible. Given I wrote the article in its current state (and took it to FA), I would rather not resort to simply reverting such changes without other views so as to avoid appearing to be taking a WP:OWN stance on the article. As such, I would appreciate opinions on both the section of the article, and the appropriateness of my revert. Thanks, Reso lute 17:08, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Recommendation: Reduction of the whole melange to perhaps three paragraphs from the current six, removal of the images, removal of such words as "argue" and "claim" and simply stating that animal rights groups are unhappy that the Humane Society works with the major fair. Heck, cutting the entire article in half would double its effectiveness. Cheers. Collect ( talk) 20:18, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
A group of active editors in both the Selena Gomez and Justin Bieber articles have made a decision to omit any and all references to their relationship. I find this decision to be in violation of our best practices and virtually unsupported by the preponderance of reliable sources on the subject. Although I am uninvolved in this issue, having only just noticed this glaring omission, I would like to hear from uninvolved editors who have not contributed to either article and are willing to take a look at this problem with fresh eyes. However, if you are involved in contributing to these articles and you wish to share your opinion, please note your involvement. Viriditas ( talk) 04:08, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
What can I say, I really don't know what else to do so I'm here. This is the discussion, but really, apart from "it's relevant" no one has a convincing argument. The problem is best described below the aforementioned paragraph, under the RfC heading that yielded virtually no response. Here is how I presented the question – hopefully, this will be settled in an encyclopedic manner:
<- Hearfourmewesique, since Malik has separated out a section below I'll respond here. With respect, it's not a good use of your time to try to explain your position to me because I think your approach is fundamentally flawed. We just reflect what reliable sources say in a way that is consistent with the policies and guidelines of the project. To me this is just cold, heartless information processing. Assuming for the sake of argument that I had some personal views on the issues that mattered to anyone, they still wouldn't be part of the decision procedures. I honestly don't care in the slightest about the words themselves; resident, settler, colonist, disputed, occupied, Israeli village, Israeli settlement, Israeli colony, West Bank, Judea and Samaria etc etc even though these words have great symbolic significance for many people for reasons that are a bit puzzling but are always irrelevant to content decisions. The objective is simply to maximise policy compliance by ensuring that the language we use is consistent with the plurality of reliable sources (noting important discrepencies and disagreements over language of course) in a demonstrable evidence based way by actually properly sampling RS-world and faithfully reflecting what we find.
Years have been wasted in the I-P conflict topic area with people arguing and edit warring over which string of words properly describes something according to policy when sampling a large set of RS usually makes the optimal solution quite obvious. My point is that an editor may think something is biased or neutral but we have to actually know whether something is biased or neutral according to policy and be able to demonstrate that using evidence sampled from RS-world. When it comes to words like resident vs settler, occupied vs disputed, what is in Israel and what over the green line, the results from sampling of RS and the constraints imposed by policy are clear. There's no need to waste time on arguing about wording issues like these or to use words that are inconsistent with RS. That's not to say that your concerns about detailed wording tweaks in the article's lead in question here are necessarily invalid (although I personally think they are). That's up to others to decide, I won't be participating.
My point was simply that I don't think you can reliably see bias, you shouldn't assume that you can and that you should be concerned about that in the topic area as it will bring you into conflict with both policy and editors. I'm not sure which sources you meant by "leftist propaganda" but if they are mainstream sources that other RS and the community regards as reliable, dismissing them as leftist propaganda is probably another thing you should be concerned about as it will compromise your ability to make proper evidence based assessments of policy compliance. This isn't meant as criticism. There are a number of topics about various places and issues, mostly technical but also political that I'm probably too close to to reliably see bias or properly stick to policy without messing up. I don't edit them. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:41, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
Big problems at Medical_torture#Asserted_medical_or_professional_complicity but I don't have time to clean it up right now. Also includes at least one severe BLP violation. causa sui ( talk) 00:59, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Some editors at Astrology are intent on adding the following criticism of a peer-reveiwed study in Nature into the article (see here for full context: [ [2]]):
The sources used are: Astrological Journal, Correlation, and Journal of Scientific Exploration, all of which are non-peer-reviewed fringe sources. Nevertheless, they are being used to challenge a genuine peer-reviewed scientific study, using WP:PARITY and the fact they they are identified as fringe journals as a justification.
The noteworthiness the criticisms is questionable as none of these criticisms have been discussed in reliable sources. There is no evidence that they are part of mainstream scientific discourse.
Your input would be appreciated at the article's talk page: [ [3]]. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 01:44, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
He seems to have been a genuinely notable guy; but this article, apparently poorly translated from one or more other languages, is absolutely worshipful (as well as being poorly formatted and ungrammatical). I've taken a very shallow pass at it, but would really appreciate some help here, ideally from a Russian-speaking editor. -- Orange Mike | Talk 17:19, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
A report regarding this article recently appeared at WP:COIN. The article is about an Austrian psychotherapist whose article on De WP has reportedly been somewhat contentious. Several users have come to En WP from De WP and feel that other editors' aims conflict with WP and have cited the German article being locked several times. Some editors there feel that there's a never-ending fight between editors creating an encyclopedic article and members of a fan club who have resorted to socking to push their point of view.
As there's no evidence of a close connection besides claims of fanclub membership, I bring this report here and have asked the involved editors to discuss the issue here and ask for the help of the members/watchers of this noticeboard. OlYeller21 Talktome 19:01, 8 November 2011 (UTC) @Robertsan - stop vandalism because of bad emotions, like on the other page is told by OlYeller21"it sounds like the article is good in its current shape " and by the way - in the German version wie have "und wirkte maßgeblich an der Organisation der ersten Regenbogenparade 1996 auf der Wiener Ringstrasse mit" and its more the correct version than Yours - by the way an version preferred by Elisabeht (see German discussion) - because it is the truth - again - without Mihcelides no CSD at this time -read the source and like all your unreading, ignorierin and inaccuracies - McWien without an a. So stop vandalism because of envy and hate - article was good in the beforerobertsan-shape - you are the man on a mission i guess.-- Das-Geheimnis-der-Sphinx ( talk) 08:36, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
I brought this here both because the user in question claimed it was a POV issue. I think it's a simple question of sources, but it would be very, very silly to bring these sources to RSN...
CNN, Radio Netherlands (link is dead but article is available elsewhere), and Agence France-Presse call the Party for Freedom (Partij voor de Vrijheid) anti-Muslim (as do the New York Times, the Telegraph (link is dead but the article is available elsewhere), the Economist, etc.). Given this, are we justified in placing the article in Category:Anti-Muslim organizations from the Netherlands?
– Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 17:13, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
And now we've got the same issue at Danish People's Party, where the sources include the Guardian, the Seattle Times, and the Stephen Roth Institute for the Study of Contemporary Antisemitism and Racism, and at Stop Islamization of America, where the sources include the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Mondoweiss, and the Huffington Post. This isn't about whether Wilders has denied being anti-Muslim; this is about two editors' campaign to deny that anyone is anti-Muslim. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 19:54, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
With 119,000 hits for anti-Islam [6] and 189,000 for anti-muslim [7] this is not about "cherry-picking" but about terminology. The dichotomy of "anti-Islam" and "anti-muslim" is about the same as with "anti-gay" and "homophob" - nonexisting. BTW both lemmata link to Islamophobia. -- 78.53.37.169 ( talk) 12:38, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
Edit req, Talk:Mylo Xyloto#Edit request from , 2 November 2011. Thx. Chzz ► 06:14, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
The Parity section of the WP:FRINGE guidelines is a favorite of fringe apologists, who interpret it as carte blanche to use just about any sourcing they please to support OR and SYNTH in articles on fringe topics. It is also misused to present a fringe topic from the in-universe persepective fringe topic in articles on the topic.
I've started a discussion of the talk page of the WP:FRINGE guidelines. This isn't a formal RfC, but a request for open-ended input on the question whether the Parity section needs to be re-worded for clarity. To keep the discussion centralized, please comment on the talk page of the article, here: [ [8]]. Your input would be greatly appreciated. Dominus Vobisdu ( talk) 20:31, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
I wrote a summary of some criticisms of the movement, using the same words as the sources. The sources were were themselves describing those criticisms. It was challenged and removed apparently because it sounds POV. I would like outside observers to take a look at it. Description here. Thanks all! Be——Critical 00:02, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
There has been little outside input, and there have been no arguments offered which invalidate the sources or indicate that my summary of them was unrepresentative. All arguments seem to boil down to dislike of what's being said, not arguments that it is somehow out of Wikipedia process or rules. This isn't how it's supposed to go. You're supposed to be able to summarize good sources, and if you do it properly but people still object you're supposed to be able to call in outside help to build consensus. Anybody out there? Be——Critical 00:54, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
There has been a recent attempt to include in articles on sites within the Golan Heights maps that show the territory as being in Israel. This is an extreme minority claim that is rejected by nearly every single country on the planet. I think it is an obvious violation of NPOV to claim Syrian territory as being within Israel and the coordinated attempt to do so at several articles has reached a breaking point. Is it acceptable for a map to be used in the infobox of an article on a site in the Golan as showing the territory in Israel? nableezy - 17:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Hi, can someone please look at the edits of user:Mar4d in the Afghans in Pakistan. He is editing with anti-Afghan POV, trying to make Afghan refugees living in Pakistan look veyr bad and make his own Pakistanis look good. Can someone please neutralize his edits because when I do it he keeps reverting it and I'm not in the mood for this childish revert war game. Thanks.-- NorthernPashtun ( talk) 16:46, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Just as an FYI, there is a debate about The merger of "China" (Chinese civilization) and "People's Republic of China" into one article - Talk:China#The_move_was_surprising_-_7_opinions_on_the_move
Even though there is a current debate over whether "China" should be simply defined as the "People's Republic of China" - some admins argue that POVTITLE allows the usage of POV names if most people in English refer to the subject by the POV name, even if the POV dispute is still active.
WhisperToMe ( talk) 04:12, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Trolling by banned user Mikemikev. This IP range has now been blocked for a month.
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"Human genetic diversity: Lewontin's fallacy" (scientific paper) is about an argument made by Richard Lewontin that the fact that there is more genetic variation within races than between them invalidates the concept of race. This argument has been discredited in two ways.
Maunus has removed this second dispositive point from the article absurdly claiming it is not relevant to Lewontin's fallacy. [26] The bias Maunus has displayed is transparent. I imagine he especially doesn't like this point because it directly contradicts an attempted "face saving" quote Maunus has added from ideologically aligned Jonathan Marks. In this Marks claims that races need to be "principally homogeneous" to have validity. The Long quote proves that even species are not "principally homogeneous". The Kaplan and Marks quotes also shift the goalposts and defend the position that the variation that exists does not structure into races, which is an entirely separate question (ie. truly irrelevant), and one which is currently unresolved. I find it absurd that such ideology based dissimulation is considered relevant, while simple truth is excised because editors do not like it. If you want Wikipedia to be a place where editors "big up" their ideological heroes, regardless of their integrity and competence, Maunus is your man. If you want Wikipedia to offer the truth, I suggest he be sanctioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.116.166.166 ( talk) 16:18, 18 November 2011 (UTC) |
No, I have not raised the issue on the article's discussion page. I have done this ad nauseum on the related Protect IP Act page and devoutly wish to have no further discussions with Xenophrenic. I have spent most of my free time for the past week on that page, which came to my attention through a third editor's despairing RfC, and I still owe comment on the Wikiquette case that she opened. (( Personal attack removed)) -Xenophrenic) Discussion, to put it mildly, has mostly not been fruitful.
Nor can I conceive of any conceivable reason to remove fact and cn tags. Quite outside of the doubts I may (and do) have about the foundedness of the statements attributed to various politicians, they require attribution at a minimum.
Some of the other edits ( diff) also speak for themselves, for instance:
A couple of of points -- some but not all of the edits change edits that I myself made. Changes are fine and even good. Changes that make the article less reliable are not. If the editor feels a need to change recent edits, the trend should be to a middle ground, no? Documentation would also be good. Elinruby ( talk) 15:44, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
In brief: the company was linked to the Taliban, but denies it.
Editor Bouteloua ( talk · contribs) acted in accord with best COI practice, and placed an edit-request on the talk page. However, I did not thing it presented the information in a neutral way.
The editor has now adjusted the suggestion, and asked me to re-assess it [28].
Because of the somewhat controversial nature, I'd be grateful if others could take a look - or preferably process the edit-request.
It's Talk:Huawei#Suggesting an addition
Thanks, Chzz ► 22:36, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
Hello! I'm not sure as to whom I should address this. I hope the right person reads this. In your fine article on Browning Arms, you mention many of the fine inventions and patents which were originated by John Browning and the susequent Browning Arms Co. What you missed was the Ballistic Optimizing Shooting System, better known as the B.O.S.S. system. It would be good to know who invented this simple, yet unique and helpful system. I understand that it is also patented by Browning Arms - only they make it. It would be good to include that either as a sepparate article, or as part of the Browning Arms article. Thank you. Vladimir Derugin ovgd@sbcglobal.net — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.101.69 ( talk) 04:46, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm posting this here as an effort for a dispute resolution, so some help here would be greatly appreciated. The discussion at WT:WikiProject Sailor Moon#Is this correct?WP:Sailor Moon (The beginning starts with a different issue so if you're reading it, it may be best to skip the first few paragraphs). The question with whether that article is a WP:POVFORK or a legitimate WP:SPINOUT article. The POV contention is that it places undue emphasis on the importance (ie the overall impact and not the quantity of sources) of the English localization of Sailor Moon vs. the Japanese when sources do not support this. The counter-argument is that more sources cover the English version and its a natural spinout article.∞ 陣 内 Jinnai 23:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Malkinann, is your point that because the article passes WP:GNG as you argue, then WP:POVFORK and WP:SPLIT do not have to be considered? patsw ( talk) 16:01, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
These guidelines get applied independently of each other: If you create a WP:POVFORK then passing WP:GNG is irrelevant. If the consensus opposes a WP:SPLIT, passing GNG is irrelevant. If fact, asserting a article passes GNG is only relevant when it is challenged that it does not pass GNG. patsw ( talk) 01:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Independently but they're all meant for all articles. Still...malkinann says its a WP:SPINOUT but its more like an attempt of WP:CONTENTFORK but focused on one specific POV which jinnai said is againt NPOV. Lucia Black ( talk) 01:23, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
the article is rather inconsistent. Its all about english releases and distribution along with alterations made. There is heavy undue weight made specifically for the emphasis of the english localization. Not onlyis it all based off undue weight but the content can easily merge to other more relevant articles. Which for some reason seems to be ignored whenever mentioned. Lucia Black ( talk) 21:18, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I am deeply concerned in your flawed perspective. The article is again separated in two convenient medias, release information being merged to their independent articles such as list of sailor moon chapters/episodes. All is left is english development and alterations which seems to have specific changes of undue weight so then trimming to general. The only way this can be justified is adding reception over it. The problem isn't that the article can't be merged its whether you willing to accept it. And its not over style. The information is best suited in the main article and the other two daughter articles I already mention. An anime article would be more reasonable than this article. Lucia Black ( talk) 00:26, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Not true, they are part of others that are more notable. The topic itself notable because its made uup of several pieces that are best suited for other articles. And again, not organization issue, its the fact that the article acts as a main article. If it were a valid topic, then it would have to have some sort of reception. Separating english information from the main article because of original research. Yes, it is original research by implying it a general topic but. Its not. Article is made up of several pieces. Lucia Black ( talk) 01:42, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Please reread it...you say what the article is, but its not that...my questioning has been because you have said false things about the article. The article isn't solely about what you say it is. The article isn't just about localization, but broadcast history and release information of english releases exclusively, information much more vital to the main article or at least to the anime aspect. This is not a valid spin out considering the situation both this article and the article it was spun out are in. The article may have started out as a weak pin out but clearly its not relevant anymore, new information has made it bias to english information (what should be accepted universally and intergrated into the main article). Lucia Black ( talk) 10:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
That's the only thing that has been consistent, regardless. I take back that you have not read the article. Instead, I say you don't understand what the article is trully about. Spin out leads to daughter articles however not every daughter article isn't notable (that saying spin out is just a way of avoiding the word split). For one, the article relates to english versions of sailor moon, violating NPOV. Spinning out a Pov of the main topic. For example, character articles don't get often split unless it has specific reception to that character to prove it being more important than the rest of the characters in the list article. This article does not justify why it should exist. Regardless if considered a spin out of editing of anime in english distribution, the article uses summary style mainly on sailor moon. Its not really a daughter article of editing of anime in english distribution because the article isn't dependent on the editing of anime in english distribution, although it is related to it. That article is also filled with bias and unverifiable claims, so in the end, a spin out of that article isn't justified.
Saying english versions of sailor moon is notable, is saying the basic building blocks of the main article being split into a daughter article, without clarification of why it needed to be spun out to be an independent. Spinning out media is one thing because its not a pov, its media. However, this is pov of sailor moon media. This clearly fails NPOV......there's no two ways about it. Calling it a spin out doesn't justify because the article isn't merely about just localization. Lucia Black ( talk) 22:16, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
Its POVFORK, and the only reason why it looks like SPINOUT is because all english related info was forked into its own separate section when it can go to its respected sections. Lucia Black ( talk) 23:56, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Stop it. Your the one getting uncivil at this point and yes accusation of povfork does stick. You seem to assume if its spinout, it can't be povfork. So I'm going to ask you what povfork means to you. Lucia Black ( talk) 00:50, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
The main article also isn't properly organized. It appears like a proper spinout because the main article separates overall media from the english versions which is unacceptable. Lucia Black ( talk)
I'm going to deliberately ignore the organization card you so effortlessly bring up because at this point jinnai and I have made our point very clear. This isn't for organization, this is for nuetrality. I don't know how that keeps being missed. Lucia Black ( talk) 00:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
POVFORK is a type of spinout which jinnai made perfectly clear 13-14 comments ago. Again....this is not for the sake of organization, not for the sake of organization, not for the sake of organization to the 100th power. Lucia Black ( talk) 03:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Jinnai and I propose changes of presentation that involve organization. You seem to think organization is the main reason while not intending affect presentation. Lucia Black ( talk) 03:56, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
The article's notability is based on the main article as you said a while back as part of summary style, but the fork itself is based on pov influenced section therefore povfork regardless if its existence of sources. Povfork isn't all about not having enough sources. Lucia Black ( talk) 04:32, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
I'm not even considering MOS-AM and will not need to prove my point. And merely discussing the existence of the change is one thing, impact is what helps separate/reception/legacy is usually what helps articles become independent. This is why there are some franchise articles that don't merit their own individual manga or anime article but still merit a list of episodes and list of chapters.
Here's the thing...every reason you have said here does not counter against POVFORK. Not one. Now I hope with that, you put things into a different perspective.
And this is where the starting/finish line of the endless cycle is at which I'm sure we passed for the 50th time.
You continuously mention subjective things such as feeling the need to go into further detail. This is a POVFORK.....and it proves it just by the second paragraph which I quoted:
You try to counter POVFORK with notability. Lucia Black ( talk) 09:16, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
The organization I proposed was for the sake of nuetrality, distribution info of manga and anime belong in those articles. Localization in the main article where most of the media is covered. And you miss the point of the quote as it doesn't matter if it was done with in agreement or disagreement, it was still the course of action taken. And despite you claiming the sources provide reception/legacy/impact the article barely provides any. Most of it from what I see are petitions. But the point being that this article is a big big POV that was split from the main article. The articles that revolve around english info to be notable yet it splits how english media was produced. So in a way its production info, ut it doesn't stop there it also has release information.
I believe you don't know what povfork is...and as uncivil as you may think it sounds. Covering our understanding of npov is the only way we can spot the twisted turn within the reasoning. How is this not a povfork and what would it look like if it were one? Lucia Black ( talk) 10:06, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
But not as a whole topic. Lucia Black ( talk) 16:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
We need some eyes and attention from people familiar with contemporary literature on race at Mongoloid race, Negroid race, Caucasian race and Nordic race. They are all entrenched in a pre-1950es understanding of the concept of race and contain little if any references to contemporary literature or debates. ·ʍaunus· snunɐw· 00:30, 16 November 2011 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
An editor on the Taliban article insists it is not neutral to write that the Pakistan Inter-Services Intelligence [1] [2] have given aid to the Taliban. This is widely reported as fact, and the two sources I added to the article are from the academic press. He is insistent on it being an American intel agency only POV and I assume he means this is not mainstream thinking due to this. So is this not neutral? The Last Angry Man ( talk) 09:38, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
The issues with the current version are as follows:
As of now I've given the editor these citations against his POV: [29] [30] [31] [32]. Although he agreed about these being reliable refutations but he insists that these are 'press releases' of Pakistan and not the mainstream thinking in response to which I've given him a mainstream citation [33] to prove my point. Further more the citation he added (reliable or not) itself states that it is involving certain prejudice/stereotyping to analyze Pakistan's role [34]. In addition there is a whole dedicated article on the ~10 year war of Pakistan with Taliban & their allies War in North-West Pakistan which proves the above editor's POV wrong. You might also note that the editor himself is using WP:WEASELs like 'widely accepted fact' to push his POV and is not following WP:HEAR as well inspite my repeated clarifications. A detailed discussion should be reviewed at Talk:Taliban#Content_removed_.26_POV_tag.3F.
I'll like to point out whether or not he is right on this matter, the subject is still a controversy (as per citation contradictions) and the article should be written in a neutral way in anycase and the infobox inclusion as per that is completely unjustifiable. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 10:36, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
The Last Angry Man is absolutely right. Here some more sources to back that up:
JCAla ( talk) 13:22, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
Most of what you write is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Also, you can't use unsourced things in wikipedia as a source for other wikipedia articles. Some things in the articles are disputed, but I don't want to open another discussion about that here. The following is the central issue:
Question: Does Pakistan give substantial support to the Afghan Taliban? Answer: Yes.
Question: Does Pakistan seriously move against the Afghan Taliban ( Mullah Omar, Haqqani network or even the Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin) in order to defeat them? Answer: No.
This qualifies Pakistan as being listed as an "ally" (for lack of a better term) of the Taliban. It is as simple as that. And if the ISI thinks it is justified to do what it does, why is it, that it is always in denial? Why not honestly state your case? Is it ashamed of its own policy? There is no reason to hide from a morally justified cause, is there?!
Pakistan is on Pakistan's side, so far we did agree. So what is Pakistan's side? This war and the underlying conflict did not start in 2001, not even in 1996, it started a very long time ago. Pakistan has always had a very clear policy concerning Afghanistan and that policy did not change just because NATO entered the scene in late 2001. Since 1994, the Taliban play an integral element in Pakistan's strategy and until this very day ISI perceives there is no viable alternative.
Besides, the Taliban article deals with the Taliban in a general manner, not just the current phase. Pakistan, not only today, but also in the past, has been an ally - even mastermind - of the Taliban. That alone, qualifies it to be mentioned as an ally.
The fact, that Pakistan denies any support to the Taliban, really holds no weight considering history. Even while thousands of Pakistani forces were fighting inside Afghanistan, even while the Pakistani military was planning the Taliban military campaigns from 1995-2001, Pakistan ( Musharraf's temper is well-known) was outraged at any suggestion it would provide support to the Taliban. Just to recall history 1996-2001:
"The Pakistan government has repeatedly denied that it provides any military support to the Taliban ..." Human Rights Watch 2001
"When asked 'why Pakistan supports the Taliban', an [Pakistani] official replied, 'We don’t support but inter-act with the Taliban'." George Washington University 2001
All the while Pakistan was doing the following:
"Of all the foreign powers involved in efforts to sustain and manipulate the ongoing fighting [in Afghanistan], Pakistan is distinguished both by the sweep of its objectives and the scale of its efforts, which include soliciting funding for the Taliban, bankrolling Taliban operations, providing diplomatic support as the Taliban's virtual emissaries abroad, arranging training for Taliban fighters, recruiting skilled and unskilled manpower to serve in Taliban armies, planning and directing offensives, providing and facilitating shipments of ammunition and fuel, and ... directly providing combat support. ... as many as thirty trucks a day were crossing the Pakistan border; ... some of these convoys were carrying artillery shells, tank rounds, and rocket-propelled grenades. ... Pakistani landmines have been found in Afghanistan; they include both antipersonnel and antivehicle mines. Pakistan's army and intelligence services, principally the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI), contribute to making the Taliban a highly effective military force. ... senior Pakistani military and intelligence officers help plan and execute major military operations. ... Pakistani aircraft assisted with troop rotations of Taliban forces during combat operations ... The extent of this support has attracted widespread international criticism. In November 2000 the U.N. secretary-general implicitly accused Pakistan of providing such support. ... The démarche listed features of the [2000] assault on Taloqan that suggested the Taliban had received outside assistance in planning and carrying out the attack. These features were uncharacteristic of the Taliban's known capabilities, including the length of the preparatory artillery fire ... On several occasions between 1995 and 1999, the Taliban's military skills improved abruptly on the eve of particularly pivotal battles, and in one case, declined just as abruptly after a credible threat of intervention was made by an outside power. During its offensives in 1995 against Herat and in 1996 against Kabul, for example, the Taliban suffered heavy losses after mounting attacks against veteran government forces [of Ahmad Shah Massoud]. ... the rout was such that some analysts predicted that the Taliban phenomenon had run its course. ... Initial defeats were followed by a period of quiet; then Taliban troops mounted new attacks, displaying capabilities that had been conspicuously lacking before. ... maneuvers that were more characteristic of a professional army-specifically, of professional officers and noncommissioned officers trained in the practice of mobile warfare-than of Afghan mujahidin. ... in August 1998, the Taliban forces that were advancing eastward from the city against [anti-Taliban] resistance [forces] ... suddenly faltered and lost their unusual combat proficiency. At the time, the disappearance of Iranian officials had provoked a major crisis with Iran and a substantial Iranian military force (ultimately close to 250,000 men) was massing on the Afghan/Iranian border. The Iranian government explicitly blamed Pakistan for the incident (Pakistan had given assurances for the diplomats' safety) and threatened military intervention if the diplomats were not produced. The [following] sudden decline in Taliban military effectiveness, ... was caused by the withdrawal of Pakistani military advisers as part of an effort by Pakistan to prevent the crisis [with Iran] from getting out of control." Human Rights Watch 2001
Now for today.
(Mullen was said to be close to the Pakistani army's chief of staff, Gen Ashfaq Kayani. Indeed, Adm Mullen is thought to have made more visits to Pakistan than any other senior US official or chief of staff in recent times.)
The Last Angry Man has provided further academic sources (including from the Stanford Press which I don't think I need to repeat).
In case anyone wonders why Pakistan should support the Taliban. The following could provide some clues:
1. Indo-Pakistani wars and conflicts
"Dubbing Durand line as a line of hatred Afghan President Hamid Karzai has said he does not accept this line as it has raised a wall between the two brothers [Afghanistan's Pashtuns and Pakistan's Pashtuns]." [49]
"Afghanistan and Balochistan should form a legal team to challenge the illegal occupation of Afghan territories and Balochistan by Pakistan in the International Court of Justice. Once the Durand Line Agreement is declared illegal, it will result in the return of Pakistan-occupied territories back to Afghanistan. Also, Balochistan will be declared a country that was forcibly invaded through use of force by the Pakistanis ... After Pakistan vacates territories belonging to Afghanistan and Balochistan, a new boarder should be demarked amicably to determine Baloch dominated areas to become the new Balochistan, and Pashtun dominated areas to be merged into Afghanistan. ... “Pakistan is a completely superfluous and artificially created spot on the world map that has become a breeding ground for extremism, and trouble that would be best done away with.”" [50]
Pakistan needs the Taliban as an "Islamic" counterforce to Pashtun nationalist ambitions which would effectively cut Pakistan in half. The Taliban's interpretation of and focus on Islam (rather than nationalism) is meant to be a binding force between Pakistan and Afghanistan. The non-Pashtun ethnicities of Afghanistan are perceived to be too close to India. That is why Pakistan insists on Pashtun's ruling Afghanistan, but these Pashtuns need to be the Taliban not nationalists following i. e. the way of Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan.
3. There are certain dreams surrounding Islamic prophecies, and black banners from Khorasan. JCAla ( talk) 20:56, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
But, ok, let's wait for other people to provide their opinion. JCAla ( talk) 10:38, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Can we get a response here??????? -- lTopGunl ( talk) 06:18, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
I agree with both The Last Angry Man and Darkness Shines. And as I mentioned before, the United States Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff until October 2011, Mike Mullen, officially called the Haqqani network (Taliban's most destructive element) the "veritable arm of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence Agency". [55] That renders irrelevant your, TopGun, argumentation concerning "official" positions. JCAla ( talk) 16:55, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
First of all, your "sources" are not "newer". Second, do you even read your own sources? Besides that in your sources the term "alliance" is not being used by any officials, the following is written in your sources:
Now, there seems to be a confusion on your part what the term " allies" means. JCAla ( talk) 20:19, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
All your quotes, except maybe the Zardari one (which doesn't really matter given all the Pakistani official denial), are NOT, and I am repeating this, are NOT from officials, but terms used by some Western journalists in the past and one Pakistani journalist in the present. The most recent official position of the US government, the Indian government, the government of Iran, the Russian government, the European governments is: Pakistan keeps supporting the Afghan Taliban. Afghan Taliban commanders have admitted this. Thus, Pakistan can be listed as an ally of the Taliban on the wikipedia article.
Maybe you fail to understand one thing. We are talking about the infobox on the Afghan Taliban article. The US and Pakistan may work together on some issues concerning Pakistan itself i. e. economy, health and supporting elements in the Pakistani army to keep control of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal in order to keep some sort of stability. Here the common interest is relative stability in Pakistan considering the nuclear arsenal.
When it comes to Afghanistan, however, Pakistan and the US followed the same policy up until early 2001, then the US started to change sides, with the Bush administration finalizing a new American approach to the War in Afghanistan (1996-2001) in August 2001, just before 9/9 and 9/11. Since then, Pakistan is certainly no ally of the US (and people have provided you with very reliable sources for this including this being the current official position of the US and many other countries) when it comes to the Afghan Taliban. NATO did not start a war in 2001, it entered into one in which Pakistan and the Afghan Taliban already formed a firm alliance. And even today, Pakistan perceives there to be no alternative for its support to the Afghan Taliban. And today, Pakistan is supporting the Afghan Taliban to kill Americans in Afghanistan. The reasons for this support have been mentioned above. This makes Pakistan an ally of the Afghan Taliban (when it comes to the Afghan Taliban). JCAla ( talk) 09:00, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Btw, this doesn't seem to be making much progress, we should list it in an RFC. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 09:39, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
Look, you are restating your POV again and again, while this discussion doesn't even make sense. First, wikipedia is about facts, it's not about mirroring government positions or in some cases propaganda. Second, the term "alliance" is certainly not being applied to the issue of the Afghan Taliban. It has been established by the academia, the statements of major government and military officials from different countries in the world, by statements of Taliban commanders and a few ISI officials themselves, that Pakistan supports the Afghan Taliban versus NATO and the government of Afghanistan. Thus, Pakistan is an ally of the Afghan Taliban. Three editors have agreed (one, you, is opposed). Unless someone else wants to join this discussion, this issue has been solved by majority vote. JCAla ( talk) 09:40, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
It's important to represent the situation fairly here. If the Pakistani government has denied the claim, then it's their word against another's. Per WP:WEIGHT, you need to represent all claims fairly, so having Pakistan there without caveat is showing only one side of the story. It's also important to note that you're showing them not just as being involved with each other, but as allies. One link provided above shows that the ISI does not consider the Taliban an ally, so does the Taliban consider its relations with the ISI as an alliance? This is the kind of information I would expect to see in the sources attached to such statements. At the moment, in the infobox, the sources given are self-published and neither mentions an alliance. The references given in the lead are from more reliable sources, but still jump around the subject. So the primary concern I'm seeing is a sourcing one. Unless the sources provided state outright that this is a military alliance in conjunction with the war in Afghanistan, then labelling it as such is original research. So at the moment, I would suggest removing Pakistan from the infobox and, given the controversial nature of the subject, strictly sticking to the sources when it comes to the body of the article. Nightw 07:31, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
Nightw, I'd like to know if you are familiar with the topic? Then, maybe you missed some of the reliable links given above. The Afghan Taliban are often referred to as an "asset" of Pakistan.
JCAla ( talk) 09:14, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
comment, Nightw is absolutely right. this is a clear example of wp:synth.-- mustihussain 18:35, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't share your insistence on the particular usage of the term "alliance" since a "helpful association" has clearly been described by all the different sources above. But, here we go, the term "alliance" has been used extensively in the past to describe the relationship between the Afghan Taliban and Pakistan.
The Taliban were also called the following by regional experts like Amin Saikal:
Presently, you can also find this term being applied. An academic book review recently published by the Institute of Peace & Conflict Studies (IPCS) has the title:
There are also articles:
And academic studies:
So, this is really not original research. JCAla ( talk) 09:52, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
Nightw, I thought you were someone providing a neutral input. But I have increasingly doubts about it when you suggest a discussion to be closed when there is a 3-3 situation (3 editors against, 3 editors for). No one here has provided more sources than me, accusing me on not elaborating, is ridiculous. I will tell you my position one more last time:
The ISI is widely described by reliable sources as
All of these very reliable WP:SOURCES, verifiable WP:VERIFY and secondary WP:SECONDARY sources are stating the same independently from one another. Most describe the relation between the ISI and Taliban as something going beyond an "alliance". They use the term "proxy", "asset" or "geopolitical instrument". But there is no such category in the infobox. That is why I gave also sources which explicitly use the term needed for the infobox. I cited three recent academic sources [101] [102] [103], which independently from one another refer to the ISI and Taliban as allies. So WP:SYN is not the case. I cannot "imply" something which is clearly mentioned in the sources.
All that you brought up against all these very reliable sources is the "official denial of Pakistan" (although the New York Times cited unofficial acknowledgement of a "senior ISI official"). The official denial has always been part of Pakistan's policy as proven, again, by very reliable sources. From 1996-2001 thousands of Pakistani nationals, on the order of Pakistani President Musharraf, were fighting alongside the Taliban and Bin Laden in Afghanistan. Pakistani generals were running the Taliban military operations. At the very same time Musharraf strongly denied any support to the Taliban. My two Pakistani wikipedia colleagues, TopGun and Mar4d, themselves are very much aware of all these facts, but they do not want them to be shown on wikipedia for their own reasons I could only speculate on, which I won't do since we assume WP:GOODFAITH here on wikipedia. Very reliable sources prove a strong military alliance between the Taliban and Pakistan for the very time Pakistan was in strong denial.
Considering all these sources it is clearly you who gives WP:UNDUE weight to a minority position which has been proven to be a deception in the past. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views. JCAla ( talk) 10:15, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
JCAla, do not count me in these votes you keep announcing. This is not a vote, and I have not voted. I have presented to you the problems with your edits in regards to policy, which is what we do on this noticeboard. You appear to be unwilling to listen and are simply plastering the page with rants. You have now accused me of bias because you assume I disagree with the idea your sources are presenting. I have requested admin closure of this thread at AN. Nightw 14:49, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
This is factually incorrect, T P. These reliable sources have used the term "alliance" and "ally" for the current relationship between Pakistan and the Taliban:
JCAla ( talk) 18:47, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
I've tagged
Talk:Taliban for RFC and transcluded this section there. --
lTopGunl (
talk) 11:14, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
There is a misconception on wikipedia regarding the nationality of certain notable Irish figures. The term Anglo-Irish is being bandied instead of Irish as a nationality. Many of the figures involved are Irish, but come from the Anglo-Irish social class, it is not a nationality, and there is a lot of inconsistency regarding its use, an example is Jonathan Swift an Irish man but for some reason is disregarded by a minute section of editors who refuse to acknowledge that he is Irish and Anglo-Irish (but only in the respect that he comes from that social class in the article), and then other articles like Oscar Wilde who is Irish but of Anglo-Irish culture, he is renowned internationally as Irish (not Anglo-Irish because it is a class not a nationality) I don't understand it, a tiny segment of editors are trying to ignore the fact are coming up with all this pseudo-social/historical claptrap to make it difficult for observers for whatever reason, I am being accused of breaching Wikipedia:POV, which IMO I am not, please comment. Sheodred ( talk) 20:57, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Recent edits by a user here and at Henry Morton Stanley have sought to minimize critical views of colonialism, adding content extolling European intervention, per article talk page [106]. None of this is sourced, and additional attention from those knowledgeable in history will be appreciated. 99.12.242.97 ( talk) 15:15, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
I would like to immediately revert the Hugo Chavez article to this version: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez&oldid=400342217
The debates have not been resolved, and I have a feeling that the above revision is at least closer to NPOV than the current revision. So the above revision should be restored, and that should become the basis of the future article.
WhisperToMe ( talk)
I have edited on highly contentious articles (Anarchism, Libertarianism, Mass Killing under Communist regimes, Holodomor). I value high quality sourcing and appropriate weighting policy very highly.