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IMO the article Immigration to Norway is severely biased, as I've described on Talk:Immigration to Norway: selection and presentation of facts are made to make "immigrants in norway" appear as "criminals", "social problem" and "public expences".
I added a {{ POV}} tag to it yesterday, but it was removed by an IP with a history of vandalism. I enlist the case here in order to bring further attention to the article. Bw -- Orland ( talk) 09:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
In 2008, it was reported that more than one third of inmates in Norwegian prisons were Muslims
The history of Kundalini Yoga is under dispute. [1]
In 1969 Kundalini Yoga was brought out of the secrecy and seclusion of India to the United States by Kundalini Master Yogi Bhajan, who began teaching it openly in group settings and made it for the first time widely available to interested students. [1] These teachings were delivered in a practical format of classes for the Western householder and yogic practitioner, with regulated teacher training programs and a spiritual approach which became synonymous with the teachings of Yogi Bhajan. [2] [3] Today, it is openly taught at yoga centers all over the world, and is widely considered a powerful healing modality with an ever growing range of benefits. [4]
User Gatoclass has consistently without aiding in the improvement of the article been in denial of Yogi Bhajan's historical contributions and significance to Kundalini Yoga. Multiple revisions without AGF [2] and use of ignorance as a basis for research [3].
This user has no knowledge of the subject, nor has ever contributed one word to it, or done any research besides stating his POV.
I have tried numerous times to resolve this dispute with the author (see two links above). RogerThatOne72 ( talk) 15:18, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
I have reposted this from Glenn Beck prefix:Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. — GorillaWarfare talk 23:51, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
I believe the Glenn Beck article is currently under the control of a group of biased editors with a pro-Glenn Beck agenda. If you examine the history of the article, it appears that information deemed negative towards Glenn Beck is routinely removed. At the same time, editors carefully craft sentences to obfuscate derogatory content. For example, here is a detailed critical review of the current (Aug. 30, 2010) 3-paragraph summary of the article:
The first sentence of the article describes Beck as a "conservative radio and television host, political commentator, author, and entrepreneur." This description presents Beck in the most favorable light possible. For example, he is not simply a "conservative", which is an incomplete, watered-down description of his political/social views. More appropriate, accurate monikers are neo-conservative, theocratic conservative, right-wing, Christian right, evangelical right, etc. Beck himself has described his political persuasion in a variety of sometimes conflicting, confusing ways, including as a militant libertarian, but never simply as a conservative. The sentence goes on to describe Beck's radio and TV work using the most gracious, formal, positive-sounding description possible: "host". Even Beck's own site describes him more accurately as a "radio and TV personality." Beck is an entertainer, first and foremost. And is Beck really qualified to be called a "political commentator"? Newt Gingrich, Wolf Blitzer, or Karl Rove are political commentators, but Beck is an entertainer, with no journalistic or political training/experience. His history prior to 1999 is unremarkable, notable for Beck's drug abuse, alcoholism, failure to complete more than a year of college, a failed marriage, and pop radio disc jockey gigs. He got his current shows because he was bombastic, abrasive, and entertaining to a large audience. He does have significant on-the-job training as a disc jockey. Similarly, the description "author" seems inappropriate for someone who at most "co-authors" books, and at worst may not actually pen any of his books. He has indicated that while books using his name may contain his beliefs and editorial approval, he does not actually type any words (Forbes, Apr, 2010). In June, 2010 Beck described his team approach to writing, clarifying: "There's clearly no way that I'm sitting behind a typewriter or word program and pounding this out. ... I have my vision and need someone to make sure that vision stays there."
The rest of the Summary reads like a press release from Beck's PR firm, singing his praises and obfuscating or failing to mention information deemed negative. I have a suggestion. The only way articles like this are going to be neutral is to have two inherently biased editors representing opposing viewpoints collaborate on compromise verbiage, and jointly manage the article.
- Jwilbiz ( talk) 16:06, 29 August 2010(UTC)
I have tagged the above article with {{
POV}}
as I believe The failure of the article to mention what every school child knows, namely the island of
Ireland is part of an archipelago called the
British Isles for reasons related to the fact that a very small number of people dislike the name of the archipelago for political and historical reasons is pushing that view contra to WP's
WP:NPOV policy.
Codf1977 (
talk) 16:47, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
{{
POV}}
tag with
this edit despite the fact the dispute remains un resolved, I have requested at
Snowded Talk page that he re-instates the tag but he has declined. Can an un-involved editor look at this with a view to re-instating the tag with the hope of bringing in other editors.
Codf1977 (
talk) 14:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)There are what I view as two major edit disputes at Mary Kay Letourneau, and each seems predicated on varying interpretations of WP:NPOV policy. I hope I haven't presented these disputes non-neutrally. I invite others to add links to relevant edits where they feel necessary. Thank you for any assistance in resolving the disputes, and apologies in advance for the lengthy discussions. Blackworm ( talk) 04:44, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Discussion focuses on whether the terms "victim" and (in a related dispute) "boy" are non-neutral and should be replaced in the context of Blackworm's and Jakew's edits above. Blackworm ( talk) 04:44, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Discussion focuses on whether the phrase "child rape," despite its use in the sources brought, is overly likely to inappropriately evoke emotions in the reader in this case. There is also some disagreement on whether the frequency of the phrase's use in reliable sources merits its inclusion. Blackworm ( talk) 04:44, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Update: User:Jakew is again editwarring this change, [8] days after having stopped discussing the matter in Talk, presenting no new arguments, and in fact after having indicated qualified agreement with a proposed solution. Should I take this matter to WP:ANI? Is another forum appropriate? How does one deal with editors who editwar and do not discuss changes nor proposed suggestions? Blackworm ( talk) 23:27,
I think you might be better off taking this to the BLP Noticeboard. The editors there should have more experience dealing with the sticky situations that come up when dealing with these kinds of articles. Granted that page has less traffic but that might be a good thing considering the nature of BLPs and the fact that cool heads are often more important than numbers in those disputes. Cheers, Colincbn ( talk) 01:48, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Note that User:Jakew is still editwarring this change without any discussion: [10] [11]. Why are no admins stopping him? Blackworm ( talk) 19:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Mary Kay Fualaau is an American former schoolteacher convicted in 1997 of the statutory "second degree rape of a child" of her 12 year old student, Vili Fualaau, for which she served time in prison.
Did either of you actually read the discussion and note what the sources said she was convicted of? In any case, I don't care any more -- it's obvious there is no neutrality here: statutory rape victims are "victims" in statutory rape and where offenders are male, but "students" in Mary Kay Letourneau's case. A 12-year-old male is called a "boy" everywhere else in Wikipedia, but in Mary Kay Letourneau's case that is non-neutral and editwarred out. Her crime is called "child rape" or "rape of a child" by sources, but we can't say that because editor's believe Mary Kay Letourneau made a point and a valid mockery of the law -- hey, he was asking for it! Whatever, let this encyclopedia be the people's rag for POV it so desperately wants to be. Blackworm ( talk) 20:27, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I would like to resolve a dispute regarding my additions to aspartame. It appears there are a few bulldog-like editors patrolling it constantly, biting anyone who challenges their article. They keep undoing my edits, accusing me of all sorts, this time- bias, original research and synthesis, wheras I beg to differ: I stuck to what the numerous reliable sources I cited say exactly. There is nothing original, I have not synthesized anything, and every single statement is verifiable - yet they keep deleting it all - every single word is deemed unworthy of their article! This goes contrary to the NPOV guidelines on this which state:
"The neutrality policy is used sometimes as an excuse to delete texts that are perceived as biased. Isn't this a problem? In many cases, yes. Many of us believe that the fact that some text is biased is not enough, in itself, to delete it outright. If it contains valid information, the text should simply be edited accordingly."
Please can an administrator or two have a look through the aspartame page to assess this and make a decision on the content of my latest addition or my suggestions on the discussion, which I done to clarify a biased statement (explained in the discussion), or advise where to go from here? I don't even mind if it is all deleted, the only position I want to advance is a NPOV. It is quite a complex, controversial subject, and for a full picture, edits, sources and discussions of the aspartame page will need to be checked (which are quite lengthy). Thank you. КĐ ♥ 03:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
A large number of sources, whether secular or religious, indicate that the theory is fringe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bill_the_Cat_7/CMT_FAQ#FAQ_Question_.232
Yet Jesus myth theory does not suggest this at all, simply saying that "most scholars believe Jesus existed". Flash 11:58, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
(remove indent) While I agree that Christ Myth theory as it is generally represented is fringe the problem is there are definitions out there that muddle matters.
These and other definitions are why the term is such a mess--how it is defined is a mess.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 09:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
This is a line that one editor who is opposed to Jehovah's Witnesses has placed on the main page.
Publications have also claimed God uses Witnesses as a modern-day prophet, warning about what is to come in a similar manner to Old Testament prophets.[294][295]
It is used as a way to try to implicate Jehovah's Witnesses as a false prophet. The editor is making strenous efforts to make that point on Wikipedia. I had appealled for comments from other editors. They have given comments on the talk page. But despite that, we still have this issue. The two references used are from 1959 and 1972. They do not state that Jehovah's Witnesses are the same as or similar to Old Testament prophets. Jehovah's Witness literature has stated repeatedly that they do not make prophecies, and that only the Bible, which the Old Testament prophets wrote, along with the New Testament, is inspired of God. The writings of modern Jehovah's Witnesses are not. Additionlly, these two articles speak of Jehovah's Witnesses similarity to prophets, only in the context that Jehovah's Witnesses preach the message already in the Bible. They do not make any new prophecies. The Wikipedia editor blocks attempt to edit this erroneous sentence. The reason is, it supports his strong POV. I feel the sentence violates the Neutral Point of View policy of Wikipedia and is biased. Natural ( talk) 23:25, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Natural
After posting this, it is noted, in reviewing the Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses page, that these two references, 1972 and 1959, are actually not taken from JW literature, but from Ray Franz's very biased writings against JW. This was not disclosed on the main Jehovah's Witnesses page. So, the sentence reflects both a bias and is unethical. Natural ( talk) 23:48, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Natural
There's a dispute over at historicity of Jesus and related articles about the proper way to frame some statements about scholarly consensus regarding the existence of Jesus and the historical value of the Gospels. These two edits give examples of the material under dispute: [14] and [15]. At issue are two passages in the article. One version of the first passage is "While scholars draw a distinction between the Jesus of history and the figure of religious faith, the vast majority of scholars who specialize in the historicity of Jesus are Christians who believe his existence as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence,..." The source cited for this passage is a quote by Graham Stanton in which he writes "nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed." Is Stanton's text being represented in a fair and neutral manner?
A version of the second passage is "Devout Christian scholars may assert that mainstream historians consider the synoptic gospels to contain much reliable historical information about Jesus as a Galilean teacher..." The sources cited for this passage are Robert Van Voorst and William Weaver. Van Voorst writes that "The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted", and Weaver writes that "The denial of Jesus' historicity has never convinced any large number of people, in or out of technical circles, nor did it in the first part of the century." Is it appropriate to characterize the statements of Van Voorst and Weaver as being those of "devout Christians"? --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:30, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
ONE POINT OF VIEW IS NOT A NUETRAL POINT OF VIEW!
Wikipedia claims to present everything from a nuetral point of view, but this is just a label to stop people from presenting their point of view. If it was truly a nuetral point of view, there shouldnt be anything on this whole website that hasnt been 100% proven and has no opposition to this proof. Everything that we see and speak in this world comes from an individuals perception, therefore a 'nuetral point of view' on a topic is something that doesnt even exist in our world. A 'point of view' is exactly that, it cant be labelled as 'nuetral'. The only 'nuetral' point of view possible in this world would come from somebody who cannot hear, see, smell or feel. As from the moment we are born we are influenced by everything that our minds experience. Please Wikipedia, please turn your site back into a place for freedom of speech and expression of thought. It will police itself, people will delete the BS themselves, or it may just open their eyes to a thought they have never been presented with. I thought this was a site dedicated to education, a tool to increase the intelligence of the human race, but i think im mistaken. Is WikiLeaks just a site built to make the people you believe in Freedom of Speech? Because i dont understand how Wikipedia can be such a police state when Wikileaks is dedicated to getting the truth out there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.225.77 ( talk) 10:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Is there anybody who thinks that PeaceLoveHarmony's edit here, which inspired Akhilleus's original post, was appropriate? john k ( talk) 17:47, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
I wasn't really sure where to take this, I considered the COI noticeboard, but I think this is more appropriate. These two articles have been subject to NPOV editing by SPAs for over a year now (one of the SPAs was actually the name of PR company [16], so there is some definite COI going on). In fact, the vast majority of edits to these articles are by SPAs, and although much of the content they add is fine, it tends to be suspiciously positive and advertisement-y in nature. I've posted to the talk page of University of the People, but I don't get much response there.
As far as I know, I'm the only non-SPA editor keeping an eye on them and trying to keep them neutral, but I think I'm at the point where I'm no longer neutral myself (I may be unnecessarily removing valid content), so I'd appreciate some fresh eyes and minds to help me out here. There's nothing really egregious there right now, and these articles are edited at a pretty slow pace, but as I said, they've been pretty consistently edited by SPAs for over a year now, and I'd feel better to know that there are some other regular WP editors keeping an eye on them. SheepNotGoats ( talk) 19:00, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
There has been an edit war (in wich I am involved) on the page Clement of Ohrid, a medieval orthodox saint. The dispute is about the origin of the person: whether he is Bulgarian, or Macedonian, or Slavic. I saw in the discussion page and history that there were previous disputes that have not been solved.
The point is that Clement is regarded as a pan-Slavic saint and patron by all Slavic People, as being one of the inventors of the Cyrilic alphabeth. Bulgarians and Macedonian try to monopolize him as been strictly Bulgarian or strictly Macedonian. Various sources refer to him as either Slavic or Bulgarian or Macedonian.
Currently the article is written as if he was a Bulgarian national hero. Whenever I try to change something it gets reverted almost instantly, although I am providing proper citation. Whenever a Macedonian editor reads this, he will immediately try to change, all the references to Bulgaria, and write Macedonia instead. Bulgarian editors that have the page on watchlist will revert instantly.
I think that the article should refer to a Slavic saint because all that he did promoted Slavic culture and language. That will be a reasonable compromise as Bulgarians and Macedonians are both Slavic nations, which did not exist at the time. It should also satisfy most readers and one-time editors, and there will be no further sporadic edit wars.
Svrznik ( talk) 23:13, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
After searching on google books, I was surprised to find that very few authors mention his ethnic origin explicitly. That is after I eliminated works written by Bulgarian or Macedonian authors. He is discussed in the context of his work, and his greatest achievement is the spreading of Slavic language in Medieval Bulgaria which at that time controlled most of the Balkan peninsula. The point is that in the 9th century, Bulgaria was Slavic dominated, but the ruling class was Bulgar of Turkic origin. Part of the aristocracy recently converted to Christianity and embraced the Slavic language, while other hard core elements sicked to Bulgar pagan traditions. Clement played a major role, and is one of the main figures that helped Slavic language resist the assimilation into Greek, and also made it prevail as the dominant language in Bulgaria and the whole Eastern Europe.
This is best described here:
pages 128-129 and page 134.
and here:
page 66.
Dimitri Obolensky a prominent Byzantine historian, in his book Six Byzantine Portraits, on page 9 calls him a "A Bulgarian Slav". You can download the book here: http://hotfile.com/dl/35219986/83ebf44/0198219512.rar.html
An online database of saints ( https://saints.sqpn.com) lists him as a Slavic: http://saints.sqpn.com/saintc3h.htm
Svrznik ( talk) 10:22, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Can some people help me with this article? There's been scattered NPOV discussion on it for several years, and there are two facts about its current state: 1. Parts of it read like literature straight from the organization (because it IS wording straight from the org) and 2. User/IP 98.204.64.30 (who only has ever made edits about Komen or its founder) has recently popped in and qualified a lot of the edits I made regarding controversy with the organization and has removed things he/she considered "biased information," although it was sourced.
I feel that it is important that such a large organization is accurately represented, including both good works AND controversy (which surely exists for any huge non-profit as such), but this particular editor has deemed me "biased" and will likely delete/qualify anything I do. (In my opinion they are quite biased that Komen Can Do No Wrong, so there's that, but anyway.) Any outsider help is appreciated, as I never intended to stir up controversy here. Thanks. Sweet kate ( talk) 14:18, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Are there any guidelines re category names? The recently created category "Famines_in_British_Empire" [17] is in my view a value-laden term. It has been created by an editor User:Zuggernaut who appears to be a borderline WP:SPA. This editor clearly holds the view that the British Empire was solely responsible for famines in India and Ireland, as demonstrated by his edits to various articles, but this is a matter of opinion rather than fact. "Famines in the British Empire" is clearly causally linking the fact there was a famine and the fact that it occurred under British rule. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 08:27, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
"New" editor Alterdoppelganger ( talk · contribs) has come in to completely whitewash the Pamela Geller article to make it read as if she were writing the article herself. They claim the new version is "neutral", I see it as so pro-Geller as to be ridiculous. This is the version they keep reverting to. Everard Proudfoot ( talk) 06:30, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Concerns and controversies over the 2010 Commonwealth Games ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
You'll probably guess from the lengthy title of this article that it's attracting some less than neutral edits. More eyes would be very welcome. It's a serious topic - there have been very real failings by the organisers - but it's being used to slam India and the article is drawing every tiny little negative news story. 220.101.28.25 ( talk) seems to be the sole voice of reason, which makes protection less attractive, but hopefully additional neutral editors will avoid the need for protection anyway. TFOWR 13:24, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
There's a dispute over a statement about Menzies - removed here by the editor saying NPOV is being violated. What do others think? Dougweller ( talk) 15:06, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
I am the one who marked that page non-NPOV after having noticed that the entire article is violating so many Wikipedia rules that I am not even going to bother listing them all. The most blatant one, a small statement as noted in that page discussion, which was used more as one example of many others. The problem with the rest of the article ranges from a clearly biased language and rhetoric, multiple references to anti-1421 blogs to character assassination. However, some of that same information can be kept if it is put in a much more neutral form, while removing some of the strong emphasis on the detail in his book 1421. This is, after all an article about the author and not a discussion blog about his books, which can be found elsewhere. These corrections is something the current editors have strong "opinions" against.
In addition after briefly inspecting both discussion and article page histories, it seem like the same issues have been repeatedly raised on several different occasions, just to be reverted by the same people. Some of these people, in addition, have been associated on earlier (see page histories) occasions with the same IP adress range, giving a weak evidence that these people either know each other or may even be the same person. It is sad that this page have become hijacked by an anti-1421 junta and therefore it is very important that other people get involved in this matter.
Jahibadkaret (
talk) 12:32, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
I found a discussion at WP:HELPDESK#Article links to controversial sides. Race and IQ debate where an editor is concerned about bias and sources in this article. I've just removed the edits today by an IP (technically 2 IPs but almost certainly the same person), but I'm concerned that the article is still being used to push an anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim pov. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 11:34, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I'm a major editor in the " Mode (computer interface)" article. This article contains substantial content merged from the deleted " Mode errors" article, describing how use of modal interfaces is likely to induce users to have errors while using it. Those effects are soundly referenced in the article.
This article has been twice tagged as biased by centering in the negative, and |both times I've asked the editors that tagged the article to provide sources for a different viewpoint, or to make (and discuss!) some solid edits that reduce their perceived bias. In both cases the editor raising the issue has never come back.
So my question is, what should be the next step to solve the dispute, and how can I improve the article so that this dispute is not brought back in the future? Diego Moya ( talk) 14:37, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Somebody have a look. Popped up on NewPages. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 04:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi all, I tried to initiate an RFC on the talk page of Football regarding this issue, but got nowhere, so i'm trying here now.
A few months ago I saw that there wasn't a consistent MOS rule regarding football articles. On some about American football, the term American football was used, and sometimes football was used. Likewise, on Association football, sometimes soccer was used, sometimes football was used, and sometimes Association football was used.
Ditto that on Gaelic football, Canadian football and Australian football.
There needs to be a standard NPOV accepted MOS term on all articles, or I can guarantee you that there will be edit wars in the future between partisans of the varying sports claiming their football is "the" football and forcing that POV down the throats of other users. I've already unfortunately been in edit wars with other users in the attempt to try and stop this from happening.
I don't care how it's done, I just want to see a way that all of these codes of football can be seen and treated equally in the encyclopedia. Doc Quintana ( talk) 21:02, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Famine in India has been tagged with as POV, the reason being cited is than non-mainstream sources are being used. The POV allegation is seen in this diff [18]. The sources in question are the Nobel Prize winner Amartya Sen and European Journal of Development Research Prize winner Olivier Rubin. A direct like to Google Books or web sites has been provided in the article for easy access and verification. The content being attacked as POV can be seen in this diff [19]. A discussion between the editors can be seen in several sections of the talk page [20]. Is this a valid NPOV allegation? Is the content non-mainstream and/or non-neutral? Zuggernaut ( talk) 03:33, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
This issue, which at a first glance, is more relevant to another noticeboard, has a direct relation to neutrality. I noticed that non-free historical photos are gradually disappearing from many XX century history articles. They are being either totally removed or replaced with some much poorer quality photos. This process, which seems to be in formal accordance with
WP:NFCC, in actuality may affect neutrality of Wikipedia. The problem is that, whereas many US, German or UK historical photographs are in public domain, national archival photographs are copyrighted in other states. As a result, overwhelming majority of US, Germany or UK related photos remain in Wikipedia, whereas most, e.g. Soviet or Russia related historical photos, which are non-free, are being removed as "redundant". The obvious consequence of that is that some part of Wikipedia's content becomes nationaly biased.
Sometimes that leads to a paradoxal situation: many articles about Soviet-German war contain mostly or solely the photos from German archives (because Bundesarchiv have opened many of its photos for free use in Wikipedia), and few Soviet photos which are still there have been nominated for deletion (see, e.g.
[21]).
Despite my numerous attempts to explain to some members of the non-free media project that historical photos should be treated not in the same way as the endless Transformers toys, album covers, book covers, and the rest, all these arguments are being totally ignored for quite formal reasons (see, e.g.
[22]). I would like to know the community's opinion on that account.
--
Paul Siebert (
talk) 23:09, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
I made a correction to this article, but it was removed. I am confused about how to get the matter resolved, but in its current form the article repeats as fact that two men, one of them Jewish, were attacked by a group of students, one swinging a machete. I modified the article by saying that the incident was alleged and not verified, that there were no witnesses. I cited as source my article in Canadian Charger. I think that my correction to the article was extremely reasonable, simply indicating that the attack was alleged, not verified. Why was the modification removed? I note that I am supposed to sign using tildes. I don't know how to make tildes on my keyboard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amdurre ( talk • contribs) 16:58, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
My alteration of this article was reversed, on grounds that the source cited could not be found. I am pasting same here: A mysterious attack in Ottawa
In the article, Young Conservatives of Texas, there are multiple instances of seemingly biased analysis of its achievements and seems to have been written by a supporter. Please help this article by re-writing it to be a more neutral article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theseus1776 ( talk • contribs) 17:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I hope I'm on the right noticeboard here; responding to a note at WP:EAR recently, I tagged this article as being POV (to such an extent that it's essentially in-universe and reads like a work of fiction). It appears to be a fringe conspiracy theory, but the article quotes fringe sources and tries to pass the content off as fact. It's going to take a hefty amount of work to clean up so volunteers to help out would be useful; I'm having trouble just figuring out how to start clearing up this mess... GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 23:40, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Which of these texts, would editors consider treats a crucial event in Gibraltar's history in a neutral manner. The intention is to provide a very brief overview for the Gibraltar article. I believe the texts should stand on their own supported by inline citations. There is a more detailed history of Gibraltar article, a brief overview giving a few significant details is required.
1.
“ | On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo- Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. The terms of surrender provided certain assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings. [5] [6] [7] [8] By 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and fled to San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain. [6] | ” |
2.
“ | During the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar on 4 August 1704 [9]. Attempts to win over the population to the Imperial cause were frustrated by the disorder [10] that followed. The effects of this, combined with the expectation of a Spanish counter attack [11] led most of the townspeople to leave. | ” |
3.
“ | On 4 August 1704, during the
War of the Spanish Succession, a combined
Anglo-
Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. Following a heavy naval bombardment on 2 August, marines launched a pincer attack on the town.
[12] Gibraltar's defenders although well stocked with food and ammunition were heavily outnumbered and outgunned. The position was clearly untenable and in the morning the Spanish governor surrendered.
[13] Rooke remembered the looting at Cádiz but could not prevent a repetition at Gibraltar. Senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline but lost control in the days following the capture, sailors and marines ran amok
[14]
[6]
[15]
[16]. This aroused anger in Spain against the 'heretics, and the chance of winning over Andalusians to the Imperial cause was lost. The
terms of surrender provided certain assurances (Article V promised freedom of religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Hapsburg Gibraltar), the perpetrators of crimes against the population were severely punished
[17] and order restored but by 7 August the majority of the population felt staying was too dangerous and opted to leave.
[6] Anticipating a Spanish counter attack and that they would shortly return
[18], they initially settled around the hermitage of San Roque later dispersing into
nearby areas of Spain. The temporary resting place around the hermitage ultimately became the modern town of
San Roque founded in 1706.
Several counter attacks by sea and land followed but all were repelled by the English and Dutch marines and Spaniards loyal to Charles. |
” |
1. Intention of the invading forces was to seize Gibraltar as a toehold, leading to gaining support from the local Spanish population for their Spanish allies in the War of the Spanish succession. The subsequent exodus of the population frustrated those aims.
2. Clear orders were given to protect the local population, the commanders sought to avoid a repeat of what had happened previously at Cadiz but the soldiers and sailors ignored those orders and some ran amok. There were instances of rape, pillage and Catholic churches were ransacked. The disorder was again counter productive to the aims of the allies.
3. Perpetrators of those crimes were caught and punished as examples, the terms of surrender provided assurances of religious freedom and order had been restored at the time the local populace chose to leave.
4. The local population did not believe those assurances and expecting a Spanish counter attack chose to leave settling first around the nearby hermitage of San Roque. They then dispersed into other nearby areas, the fishermen founding the nearby town of Algeciras and in 1706 the remaining refugees founded the modern town of San Roque.
In the modern context, Spain claims the population were deliberately forced out so the population could be replaced by an implanted population. On this basis Spain argues that the current population do not enjoy the right to Self-determination.
Also, San Roque, is claimed as the real Gibraltar and that only the people of the San Roque have the right to decide the future of modern Gibraltar. It is claimed that the referendums rejecting integration with Spain are flawed because the real Gibraltarians didn't get to vote.
I believe that to be a neutral summary of relevant facts and the only comment I intend to make. I would welcome outside opinion on the text that treats the subject according to WP:NPOV and WP:DUE. Other helpful essays include WP:CHERRY and WP:COATRACK Wee Curry Monster talk 21:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
(unindent) Yes, I hope you will get input from more than one uninvolved editor. Where I would begin is by deciding which are the best sources on the topic. You need to decide on the basis of how thorough the coverage is, how recently they were published, the qualifications of the authors and, if possible, how well they were reviewed. After you've agreed which sources to use, you can identify the information they all have in common, i.e. that there was a siege, an occupation, a movement of people. If the good sources disagree, then you need to include both sides of the story, attributed to the relevant authors. I'm not sure why the reflist didn't display. I looked at the code and there seemed to be quite a few texts referred to, some of which might not be fully scholarly. Remember that we prefer English language sources for verification but if there are major works in Spanish that haven't been translated, they are also likely to be relevant. I can read enough Spanish to be able to comment on the quality of the source and on the content of short passages; we have excellent translators around if we need to call on them. Itsmejudith ( talk) 12:40, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
"Some article titles are descriptive, rather than being the name of something. Descriptive titles should be worded neutrally, so as not to suggest a viewpoint "for" or "against" something, or to confine the content of the article to views on a particular side of an issue (for example, an article titled "Criticism of X" might be better renamed "Societal views on X"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing."
This policy has been very difficult to put into practice as seen here. Marcus Qwertyus 22:08, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Praise-laden bio or autobio of obscure Arabic musician that's had some court trouble in the U.S. -- Orange Mike | Talk 22:53, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
The overall neutrality of the article Shakespeare Authorship Question is in considerable dispute on the article talk page [29] and [30], although there are more comments spread out both here and at the Peer Review [31] , including specific instances where WP:WORDS, WP:ORIGINAL SYN and questionable claims of academic "consensus", "scholastic consensus" and views of "the academy" or "scholars" have come into play, the latter of which seem to be violations of this policy [32]. Unfortunately, much of the discussion has been archived due to the archiving both being inexplicably changed from 30 days to 5 days by one of the involved editors [33].
The article desperately needs attention from uninvolved editors as WP:OWN may also be present. [34] and [35].
I should say that I am a new editor who would like to edit with information that represents a minority/alternative viewpoint, which I admit is problematic as there is a clear bias on the talk page against any editor who wants to add minority view information. As a result, I have been berated, attacked and warned off, along with other minority view editors who have made similar attempts. What few edits I have attempted in order to achieve neutrality, such as [36] and [37] have been reverted. [38] In addition, the NPOV tag I placed on the article has been removed without any resolution of the many disputes. [39], [40]
I feel the opening line of the Neutrality Pillar is being seriously violated: “We strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. Sometimes this requires representing multiple points of view, presenting each point of view accurately and in context, and not presenting any point of view as "the truth" or "the best view".
In addition to the numerous specifics listed on the talk page, please examine the following:
1) The article contains over 2 dozen footnotes that have been extended and filled with ad hominem attacks, deprecating comments and POV quotes, all from one point of view. [41]
2) The article uses references that only represent one point of view. Actual views, quotes, or data from the minority viewpoint have been edited out of the article, leaving only incomplete or incorrect characterizations of the minority view coming from the pens of partisan sources. [42]
I would like to hear comments from editors with this particular expertise (Neutrality issues). There appears to be no neutrality among the regular contributors on the Stradfordian Shakespeare side of the question. The usual pattern seems to be to ignore the work I have put in , with the most minor exceptions, maintain a silence for some time, and then consider the points dormant on grounds that there was no relevant issue raised. Happy New Year! Zweigenbaum ( talk) 01:06, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Not knowing who you are [Cohen and Former IP] and what you think you know, I do not understand the use of the term "Leviathan references"--what is this supposed to be about? Are you trying to say "Neanderthal", which also means nothing? My changes simply sought some neutral terminology and a disinterested attitude. There is ample reference material to back what I and others have said; however, these have been improperly discounted because they are not considered majority-approved reference material, a perfect example of circular reasoning being used to serve the self-interest of the majority approach. This along with punitive threats. Don't try to dismiss my objections with stupid labels. You do not have to be an "oldie" to recognize bias contrary to rule. I want a fair hearing of competing views and sources. The response is willful ignorance of my efforts and references. Stonewalling is not exchange. Neutrality has nothing to do with "cranky" or "non-cranky" thinking, which is just another example of biased projection, i.e., the proverbial reasonable 'us' and wacky 'you'.
If these responses represent experienced neutrality editing, they are useless, a travesty, like Tom Reedy's ideological tract. His claim, presented above, to be neutral is demonstrably absurd when in effect each and every competing suggestion is run through his belief system and disapproved as though he owned the Wikipedia site and there were one and only one acceptable view. There has been a good deal of personal invective along with it, directed toward Nina Green, who has more than enough sources to represent her minority view. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 03:55, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
A noticeboard like this needs succinct examples of the claimed NPOV problem. The walls of text (above, and at the given links) do not help. Would anyone claiming there is an NPOV problem please provide two examples of text in the article which breach NPOV, and then briefly explain why that is the case. This noticeboard is not the place to talk about other editors, or indeed to talk about anything unrelated to NPOV. I have participated in discussions at Talk:Shakespeare authorship question so am not an uninvolved editor, but I think the request for precise examples of the claimed problem are reasonable. Johnuniq ( talk) 09:15, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Zweigenbaum In answer to your request for specifics, there are so many listed in the (suddenly archived) talk page, that I had hoped the links I provided would have been sufficient. But I can certainly bring them here one or two at a time if that is the preferred method. To begin:
1) In the lead paragraph, it states "Although the idea has attracted much public interest, all but a few Shakespeare scholars and literary historians consider it a fringe belief with no hard evidence, and for the most part disregard it except to rebut or disparage the claims.[3]"
The references cited in ref #3 amount to a series of personal anecdotes such as
a)"I do not know of a single professor ...", "Among editors of Shakespeare in the major publishing houses, none that I know questions the authorship of the Shakespeare canon ... ",
b)"I have never met anyone in an academic position like mine, in the Establishment, who entertained the slightest doubt as to Shakespeare's authorship of the general body of plays attributed to him. "
c)"any Shakespearean who reads a hundred pages on the authorship question inevitably realizes that nothing he can say will prevail with those persuaded to be persuaded otherwise."
d) and one statement of opinion from a non-academic: "...in fact, antiStratfordism has remained a fringe belief system for its entire existence. Professional Shakespeare scholars mostly pay little attention to it, much as evolutionary biologists ignore creationists and astronomers dismiss UFO sightings."
How do these anecdotal references support "all but a few Shakespeare scholars and literary historians consider..." All but a few consider...?? Where is the representation of All in 'All but a few'? How on earth would that be citable, short of a major survey? The only survey we do have does not even support it. [43] and [44] Note that this survey would support "most Shakespeare professors say there is no good reason to question the traditional attribution" or "most Shakespeare professors consider the topic a "theory without convincing evidence", both of which are neutral statements. But to write that "all but a few" consider it a "fringe belief"? I would not call that a neutral assessment of the information.
So can we examine this one line and its supporting references and determine if the current phrasing is NPOV? Zweigenbaum ( talk) 23:43, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I see my specifics were just not specific. Try looking at this, from the original statement:
"1) The article contains over 2 dozen footnotes that have been extended and filled with ad hominem attacks, deprecating comments and POV quotes, all from one point of view. [46]"
Choose any of these and we'll discuss it.
As far as my characterizing the Stradfordian put-downs as personal anecdotes--are these scientific analyses backed by data or aren't they, if they are where is the data, or are they spouting off the top of their heads a bunch of self-serving polemic statements, no doubt vaguely fearing how damaging the Oxfordian theses would be to their lesson plans, articles list, and class bibliographies, not to mention how out of date they would look at conferences and guild gatherings? I rather think the latter is closer to the reality behind your "authorities" and their statements. Call them "considered views of relevant authorities" by "authorities on the subject" or whatever you wish. Where's the evidence? One paradigm is quite inadequate judging its potential replacement. Already the point-counterpoint approach has been sabotaged, so there appears to be no hope of a side by side summary of the "question". Nevertheless, if you are sincere about examining POV problems, look at this reference and we will start there. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 21:14, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Zweigenbaum I see that a query that asked of me for specific examples of objectionable language and approach, which I have answered above with reference to two dozen footnotes characterized by bias, which reference has now been responded to by the statement that this is not a for or against forum, but these referenced statements are representative of a view "supported by academics acknowledged to be published researchers in the field." Yet I do not see representation of Hugh Trevor-Roper's highly critical analysis of the field's bias on this very question of the Stratfordian model. (Realites, Nov. 1962,reprinted in 'Brief Chronicles II', 2010) He was a respected member of the academic establishment. Thus, it appears there has been a selective bias in portraying the academic establishment's position on the issue. To hide behind a doctrinal consensus in a field where there is fundamental uncertainty even on basic historiography, and which supports legend in lieu of documentation, is to avoid inquiry and repeat error. It is like pulling teeth for the Stratfordian contingent in this discussion to even admit there is scholarship contrary to their bias. So don't lecture me that this is not a for or against forum. It is plain what you are for. Circular reasoning [academic reference required; if demonstrably wrong, academic reference still required; it is academic] won't help solve the main issue, a neutral approach to competing theories of inquiry in an uncertain field. Next pretext please. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 16:41, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Zweigenbaum Interesting. I had humorously asked for a further pretextual argument, and damn if you don't provide one, i.e., the charge that I have written too much on the subject but nothing specific. The charge is manifestly incorrect. When I went through the entire article and suggested numerous specific changes of language to approach a more neutral tone, that effort was systematically ignored, ("Man, I hate that you went to all this work...") except for the more concise formulation of the Prince Tudor theory. Tom Reedy landed on that like a fly on jam. It had discrediting value from his perspective. Now you prate that I write on a single subject for a half hour and take another half-hour to eliminate that same half-hour's waste--from your a priori point of view of course. The comment is not good faith discussion but a further indication of stonewalling the topic at hand, perhaps without even realizing it. I call. You choose a paragraph. I will show you its bias and re-write it so that bias is gone. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 15:39, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Zweigenbaum]] Good; we have established by default that no one wishes to subject even one paragraph of this article to examination for possible bias. And we have established that the article's major if not single writer Tom Reedy would not mind cutting down the footnotes on condition of no contrary scholarship in the process. This fits the description of Catch-22, stonewalling, or denial. No problem. Then we will take a not extensive footnote (I personally am not offended by extensive footnotes if they are factual) and see if there is bias involved, as opposed to a scholarly explanation that the Oxford challenge to the authorship of the Shakespeare canon is a "fringe belief", i.e., not a fact-based proposal at all. That is the box into which Reedy and company seek to confine the Shakespeare question, 'us' with knowledge, versus them Oxfords with their quirky belief. Quoting below from early in the footnotes in support of the claim that Oxfordian scholarship is a fringe belief:
Nicholl 2010, p. 4 quotes Gail Kern Paster, director of the Folger Shakespeare Library: "To ask me about the authorship question ... is like asking a palaeontologist to debate a creationist's account of the fossil record."
If we dignify this statement as rising from any scholarship at all, the best we can say is that it is an argument from analogy. The paleontologist has the training and methods of inquiry to arrive at verifiable Knowledge. The creationist has a presumption of truth based on belief (in Bible language). The analogy compares the knowing versus the lowly uninformed.
How comes it that Hugh Trevor-Roper, a distinguished historian and scholar with impeccable academic credentials, cannot be accessed regarding this dismissal of non-experts studying the traditional 'Shakespeare', so succinctly expressed by Ms Paster? Perhaps the following remarks for example:
"As far as the records go,[Stratford Will] was uneducated, had no literary friends, possessed at his death no books, and could not write. It is true, six of his signatures have been found, all spelt differently; but they are so ill-formed that some graphologists suppose the hand to have been guided. Except for these signatures, no syllable of writing by Shakespeare has been identified. Seven years after his death, when his works were collected and published, and other poets for the first time claimed to have known him, a portrait of him was printed. The unskilful artist has presented the blank face of a country oaf. Such is the best the historians can do." (Trevor-Roper, Realites, Nov. 1962, reprinted in Brief Chronicles II 2010)
The self-congratulatory high knowledge claimed by Ms Paster turns out to be in the studies of Trevor-Roper no more than conjecture, conclusions derived from a pre-ordained premise. Shakspere of Stratford could not have been the author; only his name is similar. Which leaves all interested historians and literary detectives to search both inductively and deductively among the available facts and parallels for evidence of the true author, and for the involvement of Shakspere in his concealment.
Mr. Reedy and company will not allow Trevor-Roper into the matter except as a fringe believer, and they would employ revertive means to forestall it, claiming only scholars and/or experts in the field are reliable sources, {which is the general standard in uncontroversial fields).
Thus, through selective use of the Wikipedia "experts" provision, Trevor-Roper will never be quoted in this article's documentation toward the identity of the Shakespearean author. Yet he admirably qualifies as a scholar and an expert in the field of historiography. Such is bias both in this article and in the distinguished Ms Paster's arrogant quip. 'Neutral point of view' under such exclusionary terms won't happen.
Mr. Reedy's comment, that I am not the first to object to his terms of 'inquiry' and I won't be the last, is of course a badge of shame placed on his/their methods and biases. Maybe he will die before changing the terms, denial being a formidable defense mechanism. But as Oxford wrote in one of his last letters, "...Truth is truth though never so old, and time cannot make that false which was once true." If that sentence sounds close to Isabella's words in Measure for Measure, "For truth is truth to the end of reckoning", there's a reason.
Next pretext please. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 08:17, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Zweigenbaum Call it trolling and prove it. The point does not change. No neutral point of view (NPOV) is forthcoming from entrenched interests, and tidying up the structure, footnotes shortened, et al, will not achieve it. Johnuniq made a challenge for specificity and got it. Towit,"No one has specified an opposing footnote that meets similar sourcing standards and which has been removed from the article. Johnuniq" Challenge taken. My response is right there above and stands ignored, except for being characterized by Itsmejudith as baiting. So labelling constitutes further avoidance of the central issue, selective use of sources to support one and only one academic viewpoint. Any other challenge or pretext? If not the point remains, neutral point of view absent from the article. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 16:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
It appears that the article Essence–Energies distinction is being taken over by POV editors whom in numbers are distorting the article to not reflect the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox church (its dogma to the EO).
Here's an example. Under the article heading Essence–Energies_distinction#The_Distinctions_of_God
And yet none of these editors responding here will validate that they have read the actual theology they are writing about which is the subject of the article. They are spending lots and lots of time pointing at me. Also note I have provided plenty of sourcing and these editors are ignoring the sourcing I provide in good faith and then asking for the same thing over an over again. This appears and attempt to frustrate to ignore my answers I provide in good faith. LoveMonkey ( talk) 02:40, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm new at this and it is late so I will be terse. The article once read, some time ago, like a snippet. It was lacking, but unbiased. It stated the subject's devastatingly bad record sales for a specific album, glaringly. Currently, throughout the section where albums are now discussed, there is an obvious bias towards omission of negative details about the artist's career. It lacks that same statistic above. So, I question the author's impartiality. He or she may likely derive material gain from Ortiz's success, or at least promoting it. Talented rapper Ortiz is, successful he is not, in terms of pecuniary benefit from music. Apologies for not strictly adhering to this place's standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.239.71.30 ( talk) 07:27, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
I wonder if the people appointed to keep an eye on vandalism can help. I've been accused of willfully engaging in war editing by adding information of "no relevance" regarding the Argentine experience in Falklands. All I did was re-insert valuable information about the actual food dished daily to conscripts in the lead-up to the battle for Mount Longdon during the Falklands War and the few luxuries often overlooked, using the testimony of ex conscript Jorge Altieri, who is well known in Argentina and British historians in the form of Martin Middlebrook, Nicholas van der Bijl, etcetera.-- Malvinero ( talk) 11:15, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Changi Beach was the site of the first of the Sook Ching massacres. Here, Chinese civilians were machine gunned by Japanese troops and then buried in mass graves by Allied POWs. Amongst these Allied prisoners were men from the 155th (Lanarkshire Yeomanry) Field Regiment R.A., some of whom spoke in later years of their horror at being forced to throw into the burial pits people who were still alive. A plaque denoting the massacres can be seen alongside the beach pathway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.23.156.84 ( talk) 11:18, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
I am currently in a dispute [47] with user Betsythedevine regarding the addition of an exchange between Nobel Laureates Andre Geim and Mario Llosa during the Nobel Prize symposium ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00c8zb7/The_BBC_Debate_Nobel_Minds/ - the dispute starts at 19:00 and ends at around 21:00) hosted by the BBC. During the exchange, Geim praises the Chinese government and political system and criticizes the Nobel Peace Prize Committee as elitst although he does qualify his statements by asking for the unconditional release of the imprisoned Chinese political dissident, but prompting a critical response from Llosa in which he argues that the peace prize not only acknowledges China's extraordinary economic progress, but also it's brutality in the political field. Both of us agree that the statement by Geim deserve mention because it was picked up by a major news outlet ( http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/liu-xiaobo-wrong-man-for-nobel-peace-prize-say-laureates/story-e6frg6so-1225969772275) and that the exchange deserves only fleeting mention in accordance with WP:WEIGHT, but Betsy wishes to include the remarks only Geim but delete the remarks by Llosa on the grounds that "the remarks are not about Geim or about any major part of Geim's career." [48] and further justifies his/her position by drawing to the parallel examples of Bush and Guinta and how because their views don't have any counterposing viewpoints, the remarks by Llosa should stay delete. I post a lengthy rebuttal [49] telling her that just because counterposing viewpoints of Bush and Guinta's viewpoints on the axis of evil and social security respectively aren't written on their Wikipedia page "doesn't mean that criticisms about those views cannot be posted (as is the case of what you are trying to do by having Llosa's remarks about Geim's Nobel Peace Prize Committee removed)" [50] and how there is no "Wikipedia guideline that says statements of criticisms about the comments by the person who is the subject of the Wikipedia entry shall not be made if statements of other people do not have the viewpoints of their opponents." [51] Still, she is adamant that the remarks stay removed, while I find her to be stonewalling, and this is where things stand at this point. It would be much appreciated if someone could give us an NPOV on this issue. Fellytone ( talk) 04:38, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
What do you think about leaving out Geim's comments as well? His Peace Prize comments were not very notable, as shown by general lack of media interest. It is true I had advocated for keeping them in the article, but I see that now Absolutef as well as JeremyMillier suggests removing the whole paragraph. Unless people here suggest otherwise, I think I will go along with their idea too. betsythedevine ( talk) 12:15, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I marked this version of the article 9 containing statements like "The Islamist mob desecrated and vandalized Hindu temples, a characteristic feature of Islamism") with the POV tag. Some of the sources cited are not neutral or reliable and much of the content is OR. The references cited at many places do not verify the text. One user reverted me with "persistent POV pushing by IP" edit summary and also slapped me with a warning. He did not responded to my messages showing the obvious POV in the article and continue to revert this article to the POV version along with another editor. Someone please look this article and also the user conduct. 14.139.128.14 ( talk) 12:51, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Hy there, I don't know if this the right place to make this request for help. I'm currently involved in the discussion of two move-requests, namely Kosher tax (antisemitic canard) towards Kosher tax and Allegations of Jewish control of the media towards Jewish control of the media (antisemitic canard). I think, but I'm not absolutely sure not being a native English-speaker, that the (antisemitic canard)-names are against NPOV and more specifically against WP:NDESC. IMHO 'Kosher tax (antisemitic canard)' and 'Jewish control of the media (antisemitic canard)' pass an extremely explicit judgement on the subject. I'm right, aren't I? Are there other policies concerning this matter? Flamarande ( talk) 16:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC) If this post was placed in the wrong noticeboard I would appreciate if someone showed me the proper one. Thanks.
The Criticism of Muhammad page is written as a "history of" insults, slander and defamatory statements, not a page of criticisms regarding merits and faults of the work or actions of an individual. most of these statements don't specifically mention any incidents they simply are profane statements which do not enrich or add to peoples knowledge just that simply these people made these derogatory statements throughout history.
here are a list of some of these remarks,
[how can you offer an apposing point of view when dealing with these individually would require a page on its own, its little more than name calling]
This page is also in violation of the content spin out and forking policy which states "If a statement is inadmissible for content policy reasons at an article [[XYZ]], then it is also inadmissible at a spinout [Criticism of XYZ]]" Therefore, any content that wouldn't be allowed in the Muhammad article shouldn't be allowed there. As None of these remarks present an argument they are simply labels and this is the foundation of what a criticism is, It is difficult to find an apposing point of view since they contain no context and you don't know what they are referring to so you are left making assumptions. The POV:forks states "if the word "criticism" must be used, make sure that such criticism considers both the merits and faults, and is not entirely negative (consider what would happen if a "Praise of..." article was created instead)".
Compare the Criticism of Muhammad page with the Criticism of Noam Chomsky page and its obvious this page is sub par and not up to the standard of normal wiki content which often occurs when a page is primarily dedicated to documenting profane and defamatory statements as apposed to presenting a criticism which appeals to an individuals intellect.
I also don't think it meats the criteria of the " Wikipedia:Criticism" page. i have posted on this notice board and was advised to come here. Ibn kathir ( talk) 03:15, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
My argument against its profane language is not interns of censorship, I've seen wiki policy regarding use of profane language and the way that it's worded is that it is allowed where it adds value to an article, it isn't referring to an article whose entire purpose is to list every profane statement in history and label them as criticism because they are passing judgment, which is pretty much what current editors have reduced the argument to on the talk page. Ibn kathir ( talk) 04:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I've just noticed that the 'Further Reading' section in Political correctness is divided into 'For' (5 entries), 'Against' (14 entries after I removed an article link) and 'Skeptical' (2). I would have thought this doesn't comply with NPOV but I can't find anything specific on this. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 16:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I've gotten rid of the inane classification scheme, and removed all of the books that are not about political correctness. The selection of sources there is garbage though, and higher-quality sources should be found. -- Jrtayloriv ( talk) 20:59, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
I seem to have protected this page indefinitely last year - which seems odd as I know that it is only in exceptional circumstances that a page will be protected indefinitely and this wasn't one of those. I can only assume either my mind or my mouse slipped. Anyway, an official of the college has complained on the talk page that the introduction is libellous and that the sources are no longer verifiable. This doesn't seem to be the case and there are more sources including recent sources calling this college a diiploma or degree mill. What I would like is help from uninvolved editors making sure that the article is npov. I've unprotected the article of course. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 15:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
We have a bunch of edits that have completely changed the page Recent African origin of modern humans, Was going to mass revert as its clear that the edits were done to support multiregional origin of modern humans. The whole page has been converted to this theory. Statements after statement have been added to dismiss this pages concept. Ref added for this purpose are old or misunderstood. Before i revert would like a second opinion as we have blanking of refs etc... Moxy ( talk) 16:17, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Seems this subject (and some related pages) is subject to contentious edit-warring between his fans and his detractors. I had created what I felt was a neutral version, by cutting out both flowery praise and unsourced criticism of the subject, but the edit-warring resumed as soon as protection was lifted, so it was re-instated. I could use a few more eyes here to help keep this BLP in line. — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 13:30, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
User Bali Ultimate and Administrator RD232 have been deleting (Bali ULtimate's deletions: [53]; [54]; [55]; [56]) (RD232's deletions: [57]; [58]) additions of criticisms of CounterPunch on it's Wikipedia entry on the grounds that either the sources are "biased" or that there is a talk-page consensus (it is not said what consensus is established on the talk-page, and even if a consensus about X topic was said to exist it is unlikely that it actually would have existed given my objection to it even though) even though:
Of course, Bali ultimate and RD232 will defend their actions as legitimate because (apparently) any criticism of CounterPunch is "biased" although anybody with common sense would call the removal of edits on CounterPunch cited from legitimate sources for no reason as nothing more than censorship. Fellytone ( talk) 00:37, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Copied from the talk page of the Jerusalem article:
"How should Jerusalem be described? The whole of Jerusalem is under Israeli control and, under Israeli law, Jerusalem has been annexed to Israel and is its capital city. Many Israeli government organisations have been moved to the city. Under international law, Jerusalem is not part of the sovereign territory of any state and Israeli laws concerning it are invalid.
"There has been extensive discussion, running over a number of sections of the article's talk page, about whether it should be stated positively that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel (the current description in the article's Lead) or whether this should be qualified and defined as the Israeli point of view."
Despite extensive discussion, no very clear consensus has been reached over what wording to use. I've raised RfCs on this issue at the Politics, Government and Law and History and Geography RfC noticeboards in the hope of raising more participation. Since the issue concerns how to word the article neutrally, I've also brought it here.
← ZScarpia 01:14, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
The death panel article has a section on allegations that the Britain's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence or NICE is a death panel which rations care by denying access to treatments. I felt that the original text repeated the allegation more than once and used the same reference in two different places to make the same point. I also felt that the section was unbalanced because it did not state the true consequences of NICE decisions. So I deleted the repetition and inserted a balancing counter argument with the following text, supporting it with reliable sources.
Strictly speaking, a negative NICE decision on a new cancer drug does not deny access to that drug and are not necessarily a death knell for the patient. Patients will have two main choices. They can go outside the NHS for treatment, (paying the full cost themselves or their insurer's co-pays and deductibles if they have private medical insurance). Alternatively they can choose stay in the NHS and co-fund the cost of their treatment, again either out of pocket or through top-up insurance. [1] Private insurance for coverage against having to pay for cancer drugs costs about £50 a year for a 50 year old man (about US$80, or double this for a smoker). [1] The NHS actually funds 100% of the cost of most cancer drugs [2] and the effect of NICE decisions is that this sometimes causes the coverage rate to fall below 100%. Not covering 100% of drug costs is what almost all insurance companies in Palin's America do all the time, although they do not call it rationing. [3]
Another editor has undone my edit claiming that my own edit was "highly POV".
In my opinion, HIS (or HER) repeating the duplicated text and its reference and in particular the REMOVAL of the counter position defending the organization IS ITSELF a highly POV edit.
Clearly we cannot both be right. What is the right way forward? The edit has been inserted and removed several times and the article is covered by an article probation in an effort to contain edit warring. Therefore I seek guidance here from uninvolved parties. Hauskalainen2 ( talk) 09:05, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, a negative NICE decision on a new cancer drug does not deny access to that drug and are not necessarily a death knell for the patient. Patients will have two main choices. They can go outside the NHS for treatment, (paying the full cost themselves or their insurer's co-pays and deductibles if they have private medical insurance). Alternatively they can choose stay in the NHS and co-fund the cost of their treatment, again either out of pocket or through top-up insurance. [66] Private insurance for coverage against having to pay for cancer drugs costs about £50 a year for a 50 year old man (about US$80, or double this for a smoker). [67] The NHS actually funds 100% of the cost of most cancer drugs [68] and the effect of NICE decisions is that this sometimes causes the coverage rate to fall below 100%. Not covering 100% of drug costs is what almost all insurance companies in Palin's America do all the time, although they do not call it rationing. [69]
Gosh - the wording is fully argumentative and makes statements which are not clearly correct to boot. How much is "cancer insurance" for a person with a history of cancer in his family and other risk factors? I would wager it is well over 50 pounds a year! And a person who has had cancer in the past? Likely uninsurable even in the UK. Nor are "cancer drugs" the sole thing which NICE can deny coverage for - making all of this a bit like an ad for NICE, rather than an accurate review of facts avoiding SYNTH and OR (which abound in it). What might work is:
which, if sourced, is properly neutral. The rest is simple argumentation, and states "facts" which are OR or possibly not even applicable to actual patients. Collect ( talk) 12:15, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
At the risk of asking a silly question, why is the Death Panel article anywhere near as long as it is? The term itself is one of pure political rhetoric. Whether one views the term as legitimately descriptive or not, I honestly can't see the value of expanding this article to a state where it merely serves to throw gasoline on the fire of Wikipedia's factional infighting. I would advise leaving the article at little more than the intro. Hiberniantears ( talk) 18:36, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
I actually would go along with that myself. The problem has been that some editors for reasons best known to themselves seem to have been expanding the article into areas completely unconnected with Palin's concept of a Death Panel (an imaginary Panel that she thought Obama might have to invent because to turn people away from getting help because with his new law there would suddenly be a lot more insured people seeking medical help and she assumed for some reason that Obama would start turning away the elderly and the mentally ill). They have turned to the IPAB (a body that does not even exist yet) and to NICE (a body which operates in the UK under UK law to ensure that public money spent on health actually delivers the best health benefits with the available money). Neither as far as I can see have ANYTHING to do with Palin's catchy phrase, but the slightest mention of them has triggered a justification in the minds of some for their inclusion. I can only assume that this is because the original idea was so ridiculous an effort has to be made to somehow bury the original idea and replace it with a new one which they think has more credibility. The article has to either counter those views (which are ridiculous and have to be countered if they are presented in order give the article a NPOV) OR, as you say, they really should not be in there because it is a stretch too far. I'd go along with you if you can persuade the team of Palinista's at work on this article to give up the fight. I wish you well! 80.223.188.55 ( talk) 02:19, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I believe that there is a POV being pushed by one editor, to the effect that references to "death panels" in published sources are presented as references to some sort of mythological creature like a gryphon or unicorn, and have no real-world reference point. This is clearly incorrect. Reliable sources link the term to NICE and IPAB. You may argue that they are incorrect in making the connection, but the fact remains that they did make it, so it belongs in the article under NPOV. Angel's flight ( talk) 03:08, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
They are about as different from each other as it possible to be with the one exception that they are in the health care sector. If there is to be a comparison then NICE is much more like the bodies that exist in the private insurance companies that decide whether or not a particular treatment in a particular setting should be funded from the insurance pool. Similar because they both are concerned with clinical effectiveness for the patient, but dissimilar in that the insurer can choke off funding whereas NICE guidelines are only advisory to NHS trusts. There is only one area where NICE guidelines are not advisory. As the NHS Constitution for England makes clear, a treatment regime approved by NICE must be made available by all NHS trusts in England.
Does User:Angel's flight dispute any of this? If so what? And on what grounds does his reliable sources have for connecting these two bodies? I think we should be told. Hauskalainen ( talk) 04:31, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Is this edit using a source from Fox News to say that Richard Falk is a "9/11 Truther" valid? The source doesn't even say this (it just says he wrote the Foreword for a book on alternative theories related to 9/11). Also, I don't think that this Fox News opinion article is really a useful source anyway, even if it wasn't being misrepresented. Thank you for your consideration.
Sincerely, 207.118.98.18 ( talk) 17:39, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Someone created this as a "proposed" noticeboard, however it can be used in very negative ways against users as the generally bad reviews on the talk page show. Feel free to comment there. (Or even MfD it.) CarolMooreDC ( talk) 00:26, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Should this article be tagged for neutrality, original research and synthesis? (Posted to both neutrality and OR noticeboards.)
The concept was developed in the book Radical Right, with contributors Daniel Bell, Richard Hofstadter, Seymour Martin Lipset, Peter Viereck, Daniel Bell, Talcott Parsons and others. [70] Lipset wrote a history of the Radical Right. [71] More recently books have been written about the Radical Right by Sara Diamond, [72], Chip Berlet, [73] and others.
User:Collect says that "The references used are not checkable on line - zero...."
TFD ( talk) 15:20, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
(od) You need properly sourced claims making the linkage. It is OR and SYNTH to make the linkage on your own without a proper secondary source doing so explicitly. And claims must be accurately reflected by the cite used, else the entire project collapses. At this point, so such source has been furnished for that article. Collect ( talk) 16:21, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Hal Blackwell “Secrets of the Skim” on Amazon
My name is Hal Blackwell and I use Wikipedia frequently. I have a somewhat embarrassing question/dilemma. After registering and reading the rules I understand it is not appropriate for me to do an autobiographical entry. I have written a book, “Secrets of the Skim”, which is a Hub City Writer’s project #5 selection for 2010 (even though the book was only available since the publishing date, June 5, 2010). The book is an expose’ of the US wealth management industry and recounts my employment at Merrill Lynch during the financial crisis. I have appeared on the Fox Business News as an financial industry expert and been interviewed by several other national media outlets. Business Insider has done a story about my work. I have lectured at the University of South Carolina Upstate and speak frequently about my experiences at Merrill Lynch. I am the president of HE Blackwell Advisors. I would appreciate very much an unbiased Wikipedia article regarding my work. Any takers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halblackwell ( talk • contribs) 18:44, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
Please feel free to ask me any questions you may have. AerobicFox ( talk) 03:05, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Here is the link to my Fox Appearance- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvuqcIaiXg8, This is the link to my Business Insider story- http://www.businessinsider.com/what-does-wiki-leaks-have-on-bank-of-america-2010-12, Here is the link to my Amazon- http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Skim-financial-institutional-management/dp/1449946933/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276223734&sr=1-1.
The Controversy section of this article reads like a pure one-sided rebuttal of the weapon's critics. Particularly glaring is the scolds within the quotebox and the text, the catty emphasis on how the legislation failed ("Once again, the bill failed to proceed to a vote."), and the general tone that portrays the weapon's critics as fools.
I intend to fix these problems in the days to come but I'd like to hear other people's views first.-- Father Goose ( talk) 20:29, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Ok, I've now studied the article in depth. I'd like to preface my comments by saying that I have no stake in the "controversy" one way or the other. The Five-seven seems like a pretty good gun, and the article is also pretty good, neutrality issues notwithstanding.
I'd say the most notable thing bout the gun is that it is the only widely available pistol that fires PDW rounds. This type of cartridge (small and fast) has inherent armor-piercing properties; it isn't just a question of special AP ammo being available. And while the article does mention these traits of PDW rounds, it also does what it can to play down the armor-piercing ability of the non-AP rounds. There is a plausible claim that even the civilian rounds have AP qualities. This claim should be presented neutrally, not denied at every turn.
Here are the problems in greater detail:
-- Father Goose ( talk) 01:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | → | Archive 25 |
IMO the article Immigration to Norway is severely biased, as I've described on Talk:Immigration to Norway: selection and presentation of facts are made to make "immigrants in norway" appear as "criminals", "social problem" and "public expences".
I added a {{ POV}} tag to it yesterday, but it was removed by an IP with a history of vandalism. I enlist the case here in order to bring further attention to the article. Bw -- Orland ( talk) 09:24, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
In 2008, it was reported that more than one third of inmates in Norwegian prisons were Muslims
The history of Kundalini Yoga is under dispute. [1]
In 1969 Kundalini Yoga was brought out of the secrecy and seclusion of India to the United States by Kundalini Master Yogi Bhajan, who began teaching it openly in group settings and made it for the first time widely available to interested students. [1] These teachings were delivered in a practical format of classes for the Western householder and yogic practitioner, with regulated teacher training programs and a spiritual approach which became synonymous with the teachings of Yogi Bhajan. [2] [3] Today, it is openly taught at yoga centers all over the world, and is widely considered a powerful healing modality with an ever growing range of benefits. [4]
User Gatoclass has consistently without aiding in the improvement of the article been in denial of Yogi Bhajan's historical contributions and significance to Kundalini Yoga. Multiple revisions without AGF [2] and use of ignorance as a basis for research [3].
This user has no knowledge of the subject, nor has ever contributed one word to it, or done any research besides stating his POV.
I have tried numerous times to resolve this dispute with the author (see two links above). RogerThatOne72 ( talk) 15:18, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
I have reposted this from Glenn Beck prefix:Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. — GorillaWarfare talk 23:51, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
I believe the Glenn Beck article is currently under the control of a group of biased editors with a pro-Glenn Beck agenda. If you examine the history of the article, it appears that information deemed negative towards Glenn Beck is routinely removed. At the same time, editors carefully craft sentences to obfuscate derogatory content. For example, here is a detailed critical review of the current (Aug. 30, 2010) 3-paragraph summary of the article:
The first sentence of the article describes Beck as a "conservative radio and television host, political commentator, author, and entrepreneur." This description presents Beck in the most favorable light possible. For example, he is not simply a "conservative", which is an incomplete, watered-down description of his political/social views. More appropriate, accurate monikers are neo-conservative, theocratic conservative, right-wing, Christian right, evangelical right, etc. Beck himself has described his political persuasion in a variety of sometimes conflicting, confusing ways, including as a militant libertarian, but never simply as a conservative. The sentence goes on to describe Beck's radio and TV work using the most gracious, formal, positive-sounding description possible: "host". Even Beck's own site describes him more accurately as a "radio and TV personality." Beck is an entertainer, first and foremost. And is Beck really qualified to be called a "political commentator"? Newt Gingrich, Wolf Blitzer, or Karl Rove are political commentators, but Beck is an entertainer, with no journalistic or political training/experience. His history prior to 1999 is unremarkable, notable for Beck's drug abuse, alcoholism, failure to complete more than a year of college, a failed marriage, and pop radio disc jockey gigs. He got his current shows because he was bombastic, abrasive, and entertaining to a large audience. He does have significant on-the-job training as a disc jockey. Similarly, the description "author" seems inappropriate for someone who at most "co-authors" books, and at worst may not actually pen any of his books. He has indicated that while books using his name may contain his beliefs and editorial approval, he does not actually type any words (Forbes, Apr, 2010). In June, 2010 Beck described his team approach to writing, clarifying: "There's clearly no way that I'm sitting behind a typewriter or word program and pounding this out. ... I have my vision and need someone to make sure that vision stays there."
The rest of the Summary reads like a press release from Beck's PR firm, singing his praises and obfuscating or failing to mention information deemed negative. I have a suggestion. The only way articles like this are going to be neutral is to have two inherently biased editors representing opposing viewpoints collaborate on compromise verbiage, and jointly manage the article.
- Jwilbiz ( talk) 16:06, 29 August 2010(UTC)
I have tagged the above article with {{
POV}}
as I believe The failure of the article to mention what every school child knows, namely the island of
Ireland is part of an archipelago called the
British Isles for reasons related to the fact that a very small number of people dislike the name of the archipelago for political and historical reasons is pushing that view contra to WP's
WP:NPOV policy.
Codf1977 (
talk) 16:47, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
{{
POV}}
tag with
this edit despite the fact the dispute remains un resolved, I have requested at
Snowded Talk page that he re-instates the tag but he has declined. Can an un-involved editor look at this with a view to re-instating the tag with the hope of bringing in other editors.
Codf1977 (
talk) 14:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)There are what I view as two major edit disputes at Mary Kay Letourneau, and each seems predicated on varying interpretations of WP:NPOV policy. I hope I haven't presented these disputes non-neutrally. I invite others to add links to relevant edits where they feel necessary. Thank you for any assistance in resolving the disputes, and apologies in advance for the lengthy discussions. Blackworm ( talk) 04:44, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Discussion focuses on whether the terms "victim" and (in a related dispute) "boy" are non-neutral and should be replaced in the context of Blackworm's and Jakew's edits above. Blackworm ( talk) 04:44, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Discussion focuses on whether the phrase "child rape," despite its use in the sources brought, is overly likely to inappropriately evoke emotions in the reader in this case. There is also some disagreement on whether the frequency of the phrase's use in reliable sources merits its inclusion. Blackworm ( talk) 04:44, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Update: User:Jakew is again editwarring this change, [8] days after having stopped discussing the matter in Talk, presenting no new arguments, and in fact after having indicated qualified agreement with a proposed solution. Should I take this matter to WP:ANI? Is another forum appropriate? How does one deal with editors who editwar and do not discuss changes nor proposed suggestions? Blackworm ( talk) 23:27,
I think you might be better off taking this to the BLP Noticeboard. The editors there should have more experience dealing with the sticky situations that come up when dealing with these kinds of articles. Granted that page has less traffic but that might be a good thing considering the nature of BLPs and the fact that cool heads are often more important than numbers in those disputes. Cheers, Colincbn ( talk) 01:48, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Note that User:Jakew is still editwarring this change without any discussion: [10] [11]. Why are no admins stopping him? Blackworm ( talk) 19:12, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Mary Kay Fualaau is an American former schoolteacher convicted in 1997 of the statutory "second degree rape of a child" of her 12 year old student, Vili Fualaau, for which she served time in prison.
Did either of you actually read the discussion and note what the sources said she was convicted of? In any case, I don't care any more -- it's obvious there is no neutrality here: statutory rape victims are "victims" in statutory rape and where offenders are male, but "students" in Mary Kay Letourneau's case. A 12-year-old male is called a "boy" everywhere else in Wikipedia, but in Mary Kay Letourneau's case that is non-neutral and editwarred out. Her crime is called "child rape" or "rape of a child" by sources, but we can't say that because editor's believe Mary Kay Letourneau made a point and a valid mockery of the law -- hey, he was asking for it! Whatever, let this encyclopedia be the people's rag for POV it so desperately wants to be. Blackworm ( talk) 20:27, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I would like to resolve a dispute regarding my additions to aspartame. It appears there are a few bulldog-like editors patrolling it constantly, biting anyone who challenges their article. They keep undoing my edits, accusing me of all sorts, this time- bias, original research and synthesis, wheras I beg to differ: I stuck to what the numerous reliable sources I cited say exactly. There is nothing original, I have not synthesized anything, and every single statement is verifiable - yet they keep deleting it all - every single word is deemed unworthy of their article! This goes contrary to the NPOV guidelines on this which state:
"The neutrality policy is used sometimes as an excuse to delete texts that are perceived as biased. Isn't this a problem? In many cases, yes. Many of us believe that the fact that some text is biased is not enough, in itself, to delete it outright. If it contains valid information, the text should simply be edited accordingly."
Please can an administrator or two have a look through the aspartame page to assess this and make a decision on the content of my latest addition or my suggestions on the discussion, which I done to clarify a biased statement (explained in the discussion), or advise where to go from here? I don't even mind if it is all deleted, the only position I want to advance is a NPOV. It is quite a complex, controversial subject, and for a full picture, edits, sources and discussions of the aspartame page will need to be checked (which are quite lengthy). Thank you. КĐ ♥ 03:53, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
A large number of sources, whether secular or religious, indicate that the theory is fringe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bill_the_Cat_7/CMT_FAQ#FAQ_Question_.232
Yet Jesus myth theory does not suggest this at all, simply saying that "most scholars believe Jesus existed". Flash 11:58, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
(remove indent) While I agree that Christ Myth theory as it is generally represented is fringe the problem is there are definitions out there that muddle matters.
These and other definitions are why the term is such a mess--how it is defined is a mess.-- BruceGrubb ( talk) 09:27, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
This is a line that one editor who is opposed to Jehovah's Witnesses has placed on the main page.
Publications have also claimed God uses Witnesses as a modern-day prophet, warning about what is to come in a similar manner to Old Testament prophets.[294][295]
It is used as a way to try to implicate Jehovah's Witnesses as a false prophet. The editor is making strenous efforts to make that point on Wikipedia. I had appealled for comments from other editors. They have given comments on the talk page. But despite that, we still have this issue. The two references used are from 1959 and 1972. They do not state that Jehovah's Witnesses are the same as or similar to Old Testament prophets. Jehovah's Witness literature has stated repeatedly that they do not make prophecies, and that only the Bible, which the Old Testament prophets wrote, along with the New Testament, is inspired of God. The writings of modern Jehovah's Witnesses are not. Additionlly, these two articles speak of Jehovah's Witnesses similarity to prophets, only in the context that Jehovah's Witnesses preach the message already in the Bible. They do not make any new prophecies. The Wikipedia editor blocks attempt to edit this erroneous sentence. The reason is, it supports his strong POV. I feel the sentence violates the Neutral Point of View policy of Wikipedia and is biased. Natural ( talk) 23:25, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Natural
After posting this, it is noted, in reviewing the Criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses page, that these two references, 1972 and 1959, are actually not taken from JW literature, but from Ray Franz's very biased writings against JW. This was not disclosed on the main Jehovah's Witnesses page. So, the sentence reflects both a bias and is unethical. Natural ( talk) 23:48, 15 September 2010 (UTC)Natural
There's a dispute over at historicity of Jesus and related articles about the proper way to frame some statements about scholarly consensus regarding the existence of Jesus and the historical value of the Gospels. These two edits give examples of the material under dispute: [14] and [15]. At issue are two passages in the article. One version of the first passage is "While scholars draw a distinction between the Jesus of history and the figure of religious faith, the vast majority of scholars who specialize in the historicity of Jesus are Christians who believe his existence as a historical figure can be established using documentary and other evidence,..." The source cited for this passage is a quote by Graham Stanton in which he writes "nearly all historians, whether Christians or not, accept that Jesus existed." Is Stanton's text being represented in a fair and neutral manner?
A version of the second passage is "Devout Christian scholars may assert that mainstream historians consider the synoptic gospels to contain much reliable historical information about Jesus as a Galilean teacher..." The sources cited for this passage are Robert Van Voorst and William Weaver. Van Voorst writes that "The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted", and Weaver writes that "The denial of Jesus' historicity has never convinced any large number of people, in or out of technical circles, nor did it in the first part of the century." Is it appropriate to characterize the statements of Van Voorst and Weaver as being those of "devout Christians"? --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:30, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
ONE POINT OF VIEW IS NOT A NUETRAL POINT OF VIEW!
Wikipedia claims to present everything from a nuetral point of view, but this is just a label to stop people from presenting their point of view. If it was truly a nuetral point of view, there shouldnt be anything on this whole website that hasnt been 100% proven and has no opposition to this proof. Everything that we see and speak in this world comes from an individuals perception, therefore a 'nuetral point of view' on a topic is something that doesnt even exist in our world. A 'point of view' is exactly that, it cant be labelled as 'nuetral'. The only 'nuetral' point of view possible in this world would come from somebody who cannot hear, see, smell or feel. As from the moment we are born we are influenced by everything that our minds experience. Please Wikipedia, please turn your site back into a place for freedom of speech and expression of thought. It will police itself, people will delete the BS themselves, or it may just open their eyes to a thought they have never been presented with. I thought this was a site dedicated to education, a tool to increase the intelligence of the human race, but i think im mistaken. Is WikiLeaks just a site built to make the people you believe in Freedom of Speech? Because i dont understand how Wikipedia can be such a police state when Wikileaks is dedicated to getting the truth out there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.107.225.77 ( talk) 10:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
Is there anybody who thinks that PeaceLoveHarmony's edit here, which inspired Akhilleus's original post, was appropriate? john k ( talk) 17:47, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
I wasn't really sure where to take this, I considered the COI noticeboard, but I think this is more appropriate. These two articles have been subject to NPOV editing by SPAs for over a year now (one of the SPAs was actually the name of PR company [16], so there is some definite COI going on). In fact, the vast majority of edits to these articles are by SPAs, and although much of the content they add is fine, it tends to be suspiciously positive and advertisement-y in nature. I've posted to the talk page of University of the People, but I don't get much response there.
As far as I know, I'm the only non-SPA editor keeping an eye on them and trying to keep them neutral, but I think I'm at the point where I'm no longer neutral myself (I may be unnecessarily removing valid content), so I'd appreciate some fresh eyes and minds to help me out here. There's nothing really egregious there right now, and these articles are edited at a pretty slow pace, but as I said, they've been pretty consistently edited by SPAs for over a year now, and I'd feel better to know that there are some other regular WP editors keeping an eye on them. SheepNotGoats ( talk) 19:00, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
There has been an edit war (in wich I am involved) on the page Clement of Ohrid, a medieval orthodox saint. The dispute is about the origin of the person: whether he is Bulgarian, or Macedonian, or Slavic. I saw in the discussion page and history that there were previous disputes that have not been solved.
The point is that Clement is regarded as a pan-Slavic saint and patron by all Slavic People, as being one of the inventors of the Cyrilic alphabeth. Bulgarians and Macedonian try to monopolize him as been strictly Bulgarian or strictly Macedonian. Various sources refer to him as either Slavic or Bulgarian or Macedonian.
Currently the article is written as if he was a Bulgarian national hero. Whenever I try to change something it gets reverted almost instantly, although I am providing proper citation. Whenever a Macedonian editor reads this, he will immediately try to change, all the references to Bulgaria, and write Macedonia instead. Bulgarian editors that have the page on watchlist will revert instantly.
I think that the article should refer to a Slavic saint because all that he did promoted Slavic culture and language. That will be a reasonable compromise as Bulgarians and Macedonians are both Slavic nations, which did not exist at the time. It should also satisfy most readers and one-time editors, and there will be no further sporadic edit wars.
Svrznik ( talk) 23:13, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
After searching on google books, I was surprised to find that very few authors mention his ethnic origin explicitly. That is after I eliminated works written by Bulgarian or Macedonian authors. He is discussed in the context of his work, and his greatest achievement is the spreading of Slavic language in Medieval Bulgaria which at that time controlled most of the Balkan peninsula. The point is that in the 9th century, Bulgaria was Slavic dominated, but the ruling class was Bulgar of Turkic origin. Part of the aristocracy recently converted to Christianity and embraced the Slavic language, while other hard core elements sicked to Bulgar pagan traditions. Clement played a major role, and is one of the main figures that helped Slavic language resist the assimilation into Greek, and also made it prevail as the dominant language in Bulgaria and the whole Eastern Europe.
This is best described here:
pages 128-129 and page 134.
and here:
page 66.
Dimitri Obolensky a prominent Byzantine historian, in his book Six Byzantine Portraits, on page 9 calls him a "A Bulgarian Slav". You can download the book here: http://hotfile.com/dl/35219986/83ebf44/0198219512.rar.html
An online database of saints ( https://saints.sqpn.com) lists him as a Slavic: http://saints.sqpn.com/saintc3h.htm
Svrznik ( talk) 10:22, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Can some people help me with this article? There's been scattered NPOV discussion on it for several years, and there are two facts about its current state: 1. Parts of it read like literature straight from the organization (because it IS wording straight from the org) and 2. User/IP 98.204.64.30 (who only has ever made edits about Komen or its founder) has recently popped in and qualified a lot of the edits I made regarding controversy with the organization and has removed things he/she considered "biased information," although it was sourced.
I feel that it is important that such a large organization is accurately represented, including both good works AND controversy (which surely exists for any huge non-profit as such), but this particular editor has deemed me "biased" and will likely delete/qualify anything I do. (In my opinion they are quite biased that Komen Can Do No Wrong, so there's that, but anyway.) Any outsider help is appreciated, as I never intended to stir up controversy here. Thanks. Sweet kate ( talk) 14:18, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Are there any guidelines re category names? The recently created category "Famines_in_British_Empire" [17] is in my view a value-laden term. It has been created by an editor User:Zuggernaut who appears to be a borderline WP:SPA. This editor clearly holds the view that the British Empire was solely responsible for famines in India and Ireland, as demonstrated by his edits to various articles, but this is a matter of opinion rather than fact. "Famines in the British Empire" is clearly causally linking the fact there was a famine and the fact that it occurred under British rule. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 08:27, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
"New" editor Alterdoppelganger ( talk · contribs) has come in to completely whitewash the Pamela Geller article to make it read as if she were writing the article herself. They claim the new version is "neutral", I see it as so pro-Geller as to be ridiculous. This is the version they keep reverting to. Everard Proudfoot ( talk) 06:30, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
Concerns and controversies over the 2010 Commonwealth Games ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
You'll probably guess from the lengthy title of this article that it's attracting some less than neutral edits. More eyes would be very welcome. It's a serious topic - there have been very real failings by the organisers - but it's being used to slam India and the article is drawing every tiny little negative news story. 220.101.28.25 ( talk) seems to be the sole voice of reason, which makes protection less attractive, but hopefully additional neutral editors will avoid the need for protection anyway. TFOWR 13:24, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
There's a dispute over a statement about Menzies - removed here by the editor saying NPOV is being violated. What do others think? Dougweller ( talk) 15:06, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
I am the one who marked that page non-NPOV after having noticed that the entire article is violating so many Wikipedia rules that I am not even going to bother listing them all. The most blatant one, a small statement as noted in that page discussion, which was used more as one example of many others. The problem with the rest of the article ranges from a clearly biased language and rhetoric, multiple references to anti-1421 blogs to character assassination. However, some of that same information can be kept if it is put in a much more neutral form, while removing some of the strong emphasis on the detail in his book 1421. This is, after all an article about the author and not a discussion blog about his books, which can be found elsewhere. These corrections is something the current editors have strong "opinions" against.
In addition after briefly inspecting both discussion and article page histories, it seem like the same issues have been repeatedly raised on several different occasions, just to be reverted by the same people. Some of these people, in addition, have been associated on earlier (see page histories) occasions with the same IP adress range, giving a weak evidence that these people either know each other or may even be the same person. It is sad that this page have become hijacked by an anti-1421 junta and therefore it is very important that other people get involved in this matter.
Jahibadkaret (
talk) 12:32, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
I found a discussion at WP:HELPDESK#Article links to controversial sides. Race and IQ debate where an editor is concerned about bias and sources in this article. I've just removed the edits today by an IP (technically 2 IPs but almost certainly the same person), but I'm concerned that the article is still being used to push an anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim pov. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 11:34, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi, I'm a major editor in the " Mode (computer interface)" article. This article contains substantial content merged from the deleted " Mode errors" article, describing how use of modal interfaces is likely to induce users to have errors while using it. Those effects are soundly referenced in the article.
This article has been twice tagged as biased by centering in the negative, and |both times I've asked the editors that tagged the article to provide sources for a different viewpoint, or to make (and discuss!) some solid edits that reduce their perceived bias. In both cases the editor raising the issue has never come back.
So my question is, what should be the next step to solve the dispute, and how can I improve the article so that this dispute is not brought back in the future? Diego Moya ( talk) 14:37, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
Somebody have a look. Popped up on NewPages. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 04:50, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Hi all, I tried to initiate an RFC on the talk page of Football regarding this issue, but got nowhere, so i'm trying here now.
A few months ago I saw that there wasn't a consistent MOS rule regarding football articles. On some about American football, the term American football was used, and sometimes football was used. Likewise, on Association football, sometimes soccer was used, sometimes football was used, and sometimes Association football was used.
Ditto that on Gaelic football, Canadian football and Australian football.
There needs to be a standard NPOV accepted MOS term on all articles, or I can guarantee you that there will be edit wars in the future between partisans of the varying sports claiming their football is "the" football and forcing that POV down the throats of other users. I've already unfortunately been in edit wars with other users in the attempt to try and stop this from happening.
I don't care how it's done, I just want to see a way that all of these codes of football can be seen and treated equally in the encyclopedia. Doc Quintana ( talk) 21:02, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Famine in India has been tagged with as POV, the reason being cited is than non-mainstream sources are being used. The POV allegation is seen in this diff [18]. The sources in question are the Nobel Prize winner Amartya Sen and European Journal of Development Research Prize winner Olivier Rubin. A direct like to Google Books or web sites has been provided in the article for easy access and verification. The content being attacked as POV can be seen in this diff [19]. A discussion between the editors can be seen in several sections of the talk page [20]. Is this a valid NPOV allegation? Is the content non-mainstream and/or non-neutral? Zuggernaut ( talk) 03:33, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
This issue, which at a first glance, is more relevant to another noticeboard, has a direct relation to neutrality. I noticed that non-free historical photos are gradually disappearing from many XX century history articles. They are being either totally removed or replaced with some much poorer quality photos. This process, which seems to be in formal accordance with
WP:NFCC, in actuality may affect neutrality of Wikipedia. The problem is that, whereas many US, German or UK historical photographs are in public domain, national archival photographs are copyrighted in other states. As a result, overwhelming majority of US, Germany or UK related photos remain in Wikipedia, whereas most, e.g. Soviet or Russia related historical photos, which are non-free, are being removed as "redundant". The obvious consequence of that is that some part of Wikipedia's content becomes nationaly biased.
Sometimes that leads to a paradoxal situation: many articles about Soviet-German war contain mostly or solely the photos from German archives (because Bundesarchiv have opened many of its photos for free use in Wikipedia), and few Soviet photos which are still there have been nominated for deletion (see, e.g.
[21]).
Despite my numerous attempts to explain to some members of the non-free media project that historical photos should be treated not in the same way as the endless Transformers toys, album covers, book covers, and the rest, all these arguments are being totally ignored for quite formal reasons (see, e.g.
[22]). I would like to know the community's opinion on that account.
--
Paul Siebert (
talk) 23:09, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
I made a correction to this article, but it was removed. I am confused about how to get the matter resolved, but in its current form the article repeats as fact that two men, one of them Jewish, were attacked by a group of students, one swinging a machete. I modified the article by saying that the incident was alleged and not verified, that there were no witnesses. I cited as source my article in Canadian Charger. I think that my correction to the article was extremely reasonable, simply indicating that the attack was alleged, not verified. Why was the modification removed? I note that I am supposed to sign using tildes. I don't know how to make tildes on my keyboard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amdurre ( talk • contribs) 16:58, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
My alteration of this article was reversed, on grounds that the source cited could not be found. I am pasting same here: A mysterious attack in Ottawa
In the article, Young Conservatives of Texas, there are multiple instances of seemingly biased analysis of its achievements and seems to have been written by a supporter. Please help this article by re-writing it to be a more neutral article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theseus1776 ( talk • contribs) 17:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I hope I'm on the right noticeboard here; responding to a note at WP:EAR recently, I tagged this article as being POV (to such an extent that it's essentially in-universe and reads like a work of fiction). It appears to be a fringe conspiracy theory, but the article quotes fringe sources and tries to pass the content off as fact. It's going to take a hefty amount of work to clean up so volunteers to help out would be useful; I'm having trouble just figuring out how to start clearing up this mess... GiftigerWunsch [TALK] 23:40, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
Which of these texts, would editors consider treats a crucial event in Gibraltar's history in a neutral manner. The intention is to provide a very brief overview for the Gibraltar article. I believe the texts should stand on their own supported by inline citations. There is a more detailed history of Gibraltar article, a brief overview giving a few significant details is required.
1.
“ | On 4 August 1704, during the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo- Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. The terms of surrender provided certain assurances but commanders lost control, sailors and marines engaged in rape and pillage, desecrating most churches, and townspeople carried out reprisal killings. [5] [6] [7] [8] By 7 August, after order was restored, almost all the population felt that staying in Gibraltar was too dangerous and fled to San Roque and other nearby areas of Spain. [6] | ” |
2.
“ | During the War of the Spanish Succession, a combined Anglo-Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar on 4 August 1704 [9]. Attempts to win over the population to the Imperial cause were frustrated by the disorder [10] that followed. The effects of this, combined with the expectation of a Spanish counter attack [11] led most of the townspeople to leave. | ” |
3.
“ | On 4 August 1704, during the
War of the Spanish Succession, a combined
Anglo-
Dutch force captured the town of Gibraltar. Following a heavy naval bombardment on 2 August, marines launched a pincer attack on the town.
[12] Gibraltar's defenders although well stocked with food and ammunition were heavily outnumbered and outgunned. The position was clearly untenable and in the morning the Spanish governor surrendered.
[13] Rooke remembered the looting at Cádiz but could not prevent a repetition at Gibraltar. Senior officers did their utmost to impose discipline but lost control in the days following the capture, sailors and marines ran amok
[14]
[6]
[15]
[16]. This aroused anger in Spain against the 'heretics, and the chance of winning over Andalusians to the Imperial cause was lost. The
terms of surrender provided certain assurances (Article V promised freedom of religion and full civil rights to all Spaniards who wished to stay in Hapsburg Gibraltar), the perpetrators of crimes against the population were severely punished
[17] and order restored but by 7 August the majority of the population felt staying was too dangerous and opted to leave.
[6] Anticipating a Spanish counter attack and that they would shortly return
[18], they initially settled around the hermitage of San Roque later dispersing into
nearby areas of Spain. The temporary resting place around the hermitage ultimately became the modern town of
San Roque founded in 1706.
Several counter attacks by sea and land followed but all were repelled by the English and Dutch marines and Spaniards loyal to Charles. |
” |
1. Intention of the invading forces was to seize Gibraltar as a toehold, leading to gaining support from the local Spanish population for their Spanish allies in the War of the Spanish succession. The subsequent exodus of the population frustrated those aims.
2. Clear orders were given to protect the local population, the commanders sought to avoid a repeat of what had happened previously at Cadiz but the soldiers and sailors ignored those orders and some ran amok. There were instances of rape, pillage and Catholic churches were ransacked. The disorder was again counter productive to the aims of the allies.
3. Perpetrators of those crimes were caught and punished as examples, the terms of surrender provided assurances of religious freedom and order had been restored at the time the local populace chose to leave.
4. The local population did not believe those assurances and expecting a Spanish counter attack chose to leave settling first around the nearby hermitage of San Roque. They then dispersed into other nearby areas, the fishermen founding the nearby town of Algeciras and in 1706 the remaining refugees founded the modern town of San Roque.
In the modern context, Spain claims the population were deliberately forced out so the population could be replaced by an implanted population. On this basis Spain argues that the current population do not enjoy the right to Self-determination.
Also, San Roque, is claimed as the real Gibraltar and that only the people of the San Roque have the right to decide the future of modern Gibraltar. It is claimed that the referendums rejecting integration with Spain are flawed because the real Gibraltarians didn't get to vote.
I believe that to be a neutral summary of relevant facts and the only comment I intend to make. I would welcome outside opinion on the text that treats the subject according to WP:NPOV and WP:DUE. Other helpful essays include WP:CHERRY and WP:COATRACK Wee Curry Monster talk 21:35, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
(unindent) Yes, I hope you will get input from more than one uninvolved editor. Where I would begin is by deciding which are the best sources on the topic. You need to decide on the basis of how thorough the coverage is, how recently they were published, the qualifications of the authors and, if possible, how well they were reviewed. After you've agreed which sources to use, you can identify the information they all have in common, i.e. that there was a siege, an occupation, a movement of people. If the good sources disagree, then you need to include both sides of the story, attributed to the relevant authors. I'm not sure why the reflist didn't display. I looked at the code and there seemed to be quite a few texts referred to, some of which might not be fully scholarly. Remember that we prefer English language sources for verification but if there are major works in Spanish that haven't been translated, they are also likely to be relevant. I can read enough Spanish to be able to comment on the quality of the source and on the content of short passages; we have excellent translators around if we need to call on them. Itsmejudith ( talk) 12:40, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
"Some article titles are descriptive, rather than being the name of something. Descriptive titles should be worded neutrally, so as not to suggest a viewpoint "for" or "against" something, or to confine the content of the article to views on a particular side of an issue (for example, an article titled "Criticism of X" might be better renamed "Societal views on X"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing."
This policy has been very difficult to put into practice as seen here. Marcus Qwertyus 22:08, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Praise-laden bio or autobio of obscure Arabic musician that's had some court trouble in the U.S. -- Orange Mike | Talk 22:53, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
The overall neutrality of the article Shakespeare Authorship Question is in considerable dispute on the article talk page [29] and [30], although there are more comments spread out both here and at the Peer Review [31] , including specific instances where WP:WORDS, WP:ORIGINAL SYN and questionable claims of academic "consensus", "scholastic consensus" and views of "the academy" or "scholars" have come into play, the latter of which seem to be violations of this policy [32]. Unfortunately, much of the discussion has been archived due to the archiving both being inexplicably changed from 30 days to 5 days by one of the involved editors [33].
The article desperately needs attention from uninvolved editors as WP:OWN may also be present. [34] and [35].
I should say that I am a new editor who would like to edit with information that represents a minority/alternative viewpoint, which I admit is problematic as there is a clear bias on the talk page against any editor who wants to add minority view information. As a result, I have been berated, attacked and warned off, along with other minority view editors who have made similar attempts. What few edits I have attempted in order to achieve neutrality, such as [36] and [37] have been reverted. [38] In addition, the NPOV tag I placed on the article has been removed without any resolution of the many disputes. [39], [40]
I feel the opening line of the Neutrality Pillar is being seriously violated: “We strive for articles that advocate no single point of view. Sometimes this requires representing multiple points of view, presenting each point of view accurately and in context, and not presenting any point of view as "the truth" or "the best view".
In addition to the numerous specifics listed on the talk page, please examine the following:
1) The article contains over 2 dozen footnotes that have been extended and filled with ad hominem attacks, deprecating comments and POV quotes, all from one point of view. [41]
2) The article uses references that only represent one point of view. Actual views, quotes, or data from the minority viewpoint have been edited out of the article, leaving only incomplete or incorrect characterizations of the minority view coming from the pens of partisan sources. [42]
I would like to hear comments from editors with this particular expertise (Neutrality issues). There appears to be no neutrality among the regular contributors on the Stradfordian Shakespeare side of the question. The usual pattern seems to be to ignore the work I have put in , with the most minor exceptions, maintain a silence for some time, and then consider the points dormant on grounds that there was no relevant issue raised. Happy New Year! Zweigenbaum ( talk) 01:06, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Not knowing who you are [Cohen and Former IP] and what you think you know, I do not understand the use of the term "Leviathan references"--what is this supposed to be about? Are you trying to say "Neanderthal", which also means nothing? My changes simply sought some neutral terminology and a disinterested attitude. There is ample reference material to back what I and others have said; however, these have been improperly discounted because they are not considered majority-approved reference material, a perfect example of circular reasoning being used to serve the self-interest of the majority approach. This along with punitive threats. Don't try to dismiss my objections with stupid labels. You do not have to be an "oldie" to recognize bias contrary to rule. I want a fair hearing of competing views and sources. The response is willful ignorance of my efforts and references. Stonewalling is not exchange. Neutrality has nothing to do with "cranky" or "non-cranky" thinking, which is just another example of biased projection, i.e., the proverbial reasonable 'us' and wacky 'you'.
If these responses represent experienced neutrality editing, they are useless, a travesty, like Tom Reedy's ideological tract. His claim, presented above, to be neutral is demonstrably absurd when in effect each and every competing suggestion is run through his belief system and disapproved as though he owned the Wikipedia site and there were one and only one acceptable view. There has been a good deal of personal invective along with it, directed toward Nina Green, who has more than enough sources to represent her minority view. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 03:55, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
A noticeboard like this needs succinct examples of the claimed NPOV problem. The walls of text (above, and at the given links) do not help. Would anyone claiming there is an NPOV problem please provide two examples of text in the article which breach NPOV, and then briefly explain why that is the case. This noticeboard is not the place to talk about other editors, or indeed to talk about anything unrelated to NPOV. I have participated in discussions at Talk:Shakespeare authorship question so am not an uninvolved editor, but I think the request for precise examples of the claimed problem are reasonable. Johnuniq ( talk) 09:15, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Zweigenbaum In answer to your request for specifics, there are so many listed in the (suddenly archived) talk page, that I had hoped the links I provided would have been sufficient. But I can certainly bring them here one or two at a time if that is the preferred method. To begin:
1) In the lead paragraph, it states "Although the idea has attracted much public interest, all but a few Shakespeare scholars and literary historians consider it a fringe belief with no hard evidence, and for the most part disregard it except to rebut or disparage the claims.[3]"
The references cited in ref #3 amount to a series of personal anecdotes such as
a)"I do not know of a single professor ...", "Among editors of Shakespeare in the major publishing houses, none that I know questions the authorship of the Shakespeare canon ... ",
b)"I have never met anyone in an academic position like mine, in the Establishment, who entertained the slightest doubt as to Shakespeare's authorship of the general body of plays attributed to him. "
c)"any Shakespearean who reads a hundred pages on the authorship question inevitably realizes that nothing he can say will prevail with those persuaded to be persuaded otherwise."
d) and one statement of opinion from a non-academic: "...in fact, antiStratfordism has remained a fringe belief system for its entire existence. Professional Shakespeare scholars mostly pay little attention to it, much as evolutionary biologists ignore creationists and astronomers dismiss UFO sightings."
How do these anecdotal references support "all but a few Shakespeare scholars and literary historians consider..." All but a few consider...?? Where is the representation of All in 'All but a few'? How on earth would that be citable, short of a major survey? The only survey we do have does not even support it. [43] and [44] Note that this survey would support "most Shakespeare professors say there is no good reason to question the traditional attribution" or "most Shakespeare professors consider the topic a "theory without convincing evidence", both of which are neutral statements. But to write that "all but a few" consider it a "fringe belief"? I would not call that a neutral assessment of the information.
So can we examine this one line and its supporting references and determine if the current phrasing is NPOV? Zweigenbaum ( talk) 23:43, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I see my specifics were just not specific. Try looking at this, from the original statement:
"1) The article contains over 2 dozen footnotes that have been extended and filled with ad hominem attacks, deprecating comments and POV quotes, all from one point of view. [46]"
Choose any of these and we'll discuss it.
As far as my characterizing the Stradfordian put-downs as personal anecdotes--are these scientific analyses backed by data or aren't they, if they are where is the data, or are they spouting off the top of their heads a bunch of self-serving polemic statements, no doubt vaguely fearing how damaging the Oxfordian theses would be to their lesson plans, articles list, and class bibliographies, not to mention how out of date they would look at conferences and guild gatherings? I rather think the latter is closer to the reality behind your "authorities" and their statements. Call them "considered views of relevant authorities" by "authorities on the subject" or whatever you wish. Where's the evidence? One paradigm is quite inadequate judging its potential replacement. Already the point-counterpoint approach has been sabotaged, so there appears to be no hope of a side by side summary of the "question". Nevertheless, if you are sincere about examining POV problems, look at this reference and we will start there. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 21:14, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Zweigenbaum I see that a query that asked of me for specific examples of objectionable language and approach, which I have answered above with reference to two dozen footnotes characterized by bias, which reference has now been responded to by the statement that this is not a for or against forum, but these referenced statements are representative of a view "supported by academics acknowledged to be published researchers in the field." Yet I do not see representation of Hugh Trevor-Roper's highly critical analysis of the field's bias on this very question of the Stratfordian model. (Realites, Nov. 1962,reprinted in 'Brief Chronicles II', 2010) He was a respected member of the academic establishment. Thus, it appears there has been a selective bias in portraying the academic establishment's position on the issue. To hide behind a doctrinal consensus in a field where there is fundamental uncertainty even on basic historiography, and which supports legend in lieu of documentation, is to avoid inquiry and repeat error. It is like pulling teeth for the Stratfordian contingent in this discussion to even admit there is scholarship contrary to their bias. So don't lecture me that this is not a for or against forum. It is plain what you are for. Circular reasoning [academic reference required; if demonstrably wrong, academic reference still required; it is academic] won't help solve the main issue, a neutral approach to competing theories of inquiry in an uncertain field. Next pretext please. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 16:41, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Zweigenbaum Interesting. I had humorously asked for a further pretextual argument, and damn if you don't provide one, i.e., the charge that I have written too much on the subject but nothing specific. The charge is manifestly incorrect. When I went through the entire article and suggested numerous specific changes of language to approach a more neutral tone, that effort was systematically ignored, ("Man, I hate that you went to all this work...") except for the more concise formulation of the Prince Tudor theory. Tom Reedy landed on that like a fly on jam. It had discrediting value from his perspective. Now you prate that I write on a single subject for a half hour and take another half-hour to eliminate that same half-hour's waste--from your a priori point of view of course. The comment is not good faith discussion but a further indication of stonewalling the topic at hand, perhaps without even realizing it. I call. You choose a paragraph. I will show you its bias and re-write it so that bias is gone. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 15:39, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Zweigenbaum]] Good; we have established by default that no one wishes to subject even one paragraph of this article to examination for possible bias. And we have established that the article's major if not single writer Tom Reedy would not mind cutting down the footnotes on condition of no contrary scholarship in the process. This fits the description of Catch-22, stonewalling, or denial. No problem. Then we will take a not extensive footnote (I personally am not offended by extensive footnotes if they are factual) and see if there is bias involved, as opposed to a scholarly explanation that the Oxford challenge to the authorship of the Shakespeare canon is a "fringe belief", i.e., not a fact-based proposal at all. That is the box into which Reedy and company seek to confine the Shakespeare question, 'us' with knowledge, versus them Oxfords with their quirky belief. Quoting below from early in the footnotes in support of the claim that Oxfordian scholarship is a fringe belief:
Nicholl 2010, p. 4 quotes Gail Kern Paster, director of the Folger Shakespeare Library: "To ask me about the authorship question ... is like asking a palaeontologist to debate a creationist's account of the fossil record."
If we dignify this statement as rising from any scholarship at all, the best we can say is that it is an argument from analogy. The paleontologist has the training and methods of inquiry to arrive at verifiable Knowledge. The creationist has a presumption of truth based on belief (in Bible language). The analogy compares the knowing versus the lowly uninformed.
How comes it that Hugh Trevor-Roper, a distinguished historian and scholar with impeccable academic credentials, cannot be accessed regarding this dismissal of non-experts studying the traditional 'Shakespeare', so succinctly expressed by Ms Paster? Perhaps the following remarks for example:
"As far as the records go,[Stratford Will] was uneducated, had no literary friends, possessed at his death no books, and could not write. It is true, six of his signatures have been found, all spelt differently; but they are so ill-formed that some graphologists suppose the hand to have been guided. Except for these signatures, no syllable of writing by Shakespeare has been identified. Seven years after his death, when his works were collected and published, and other poets for the first time claimed to have known him, a portrait of him was printed. The unskilful artist has presented the blank face of a country oaf. Such is the best the historians can do." (Trevor-Roper, Realites, Nov. 1962, reprinted in Brief Chronicles II 2010)
The self-congratulatory high knowledge claimed by Ms Paster turns out to be in the studies of Trevor-Roper no more than conjecture, conclusions derived from a pre-ordained premise. Shakspere of Stratford could not have been the author; only his name is similar. Which leaves all interested historians and literary detectives to search both inductively and deductively among the available facts and parallels for evidence of the true author, and for the involvement of Shakspere in his concealment.
Mr. Reedy and company will not allow Trevor-Roper into the matter except as a fringe believer, and they would employ revertive means to forestall it, claiming only scholars and/or experts in the field are reliable sources, {which is the general standard in uncontroversial fields).
Thus, through selective use of the Wikipedia "experts" provision, Trevor-Roper will never be quoted in this article's documentation toward the identity of the Shakespearean author. Yet he admirably qualifies as a scholar and an expert in the field of historiography. Such is bias both in this article and in the distinguished Ms Paster's arrogant quip. 'Neutral point of view' under such exclusionary terms won't happen.
Mr. Reedy's comment, that I am not the first to object to his terms of 'inquiry' and I won't be the last, is of course a badge of shame placed on his/their methods and biases. Maybe he will die before changing the terms, denial being a formidable defense mechanism. But as Oxford wrote in one of his last letters, "...Truth is truth though never so old, and time cannot make that false which was once true." If that sentence sounds close to Isabella's words in Measure for Measure, "For truth is truth to the end of reckoning", there's a reason.
Next pretext please. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 08:17, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Zweigenbaum Call it trolling and prove it. The point does not change. No neutral point of view (NPOV) is forthcoming from entrenched interests, and tidying up the structure, footnotes shortened, et al, will not achieve it. Johnuniq made a challenge for specificity and got it. Towit,"No one has specified an opposing footnote that meets similar sourcing standards and which has been removed from the article. Johnuniq" Challenge taken. My response is right there above and stands ignored, except for being characterized by Itsmejudith as baiting. So labelling constitutes further avoidance of the central issue, selective use of sources to support one and only one academic viewpoint. Any other challenge or pretext? If not the point remains, neutral point of view absent from the article. Zweigenbaum ( talk) 16:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
It appears that the article Essence–Energies distinction is being taken over by POV editors whom in numbers are distorting the article to not reflect the teaching of the Eastern Orthodox church (its dogma to the EO).
Here's an example. Under the article heading Essence–Energies_distinction#The_Distinctions_of_God
And yet none of these editors responding here will validate that they have read the actual theology they are writing about which is the subject of the article. They are spending lots and lots of time pointing at me. Also note I have provided plenty of sourcing and these editors are ignoring the sourcing I provide in good faith and then asking for the same thing over an over again. This appears and attempt to frustrate to ignore my answers I provide in good faith. LoveMonkey ( talk) 02:40, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm new at this and it is late so I will be terse. The article once read, some time ago, like a snippet. It was lacking, but unbiased. It stated the subject's devastatingly bad record sales for a specific album, glaringly. Currently, throughout the section where albums are now discussed, there is an obvious bias towards omission of negative details about the artist's career. It lacks that same statistic above. So, I question the author's impartiality. He or she may likely derive material gain from Ortiz's success, or at least promoting it. Talented rapper Ortiz is, successful he is not, in terms of pecuniary benefit from music. Apologies for not strictly adhering to this place's standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.239.71.30 ( talk) 07:27, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
I wonder if the people appointed to keep an eye on vandalism can help. I've been accused of willfully engaging in war editing by adding information of "no relevance" regarding the Argentine experience in Falklands. All I did was re-insert valuable information about the actual food dished daily to conscripts in the lead-up to the battle for Mount Longdon during the Falklands War and the few luxuries often overlooked, using the testimony of ex conscript Jorge Altieri, who is well known in Argentina and British historians in the form of Martin Middlebrook, Nicholas van der Bijl, etcetera.-- Malvinero ( talk) 11:15, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
Changi Beach was the site of the first of the Sook Ching massacres. Here, Chinese civilians were machine gunned by Japanese troops and then buried in mass graves by Allied POWs. Amongst these Allied prisoners were men from the 155th (Lanarkshire Yeomanry) Field Regiment R.A., some of whom spoke in later years of their horror at being forced to throw into the burial pits people who were still alive. A plaque denoting the massacres can be seen alongside the beach pathway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.23.156.84 ( talk) 11:18, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
I am currently in a dispute [47] with user Betsythedevine regarding the addition of an exchange between Nobel Laureates Andre Geim and Mario Llosa during the Nobel Prize symposium ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p00c8zb7/The_BBC_Debate_Nobel_Minds/ - the dispute starts at 19:00 and ends at around 21:00) hosted by the BBC. During the exchange, Geim praises the Chinese government and political system and criticizes the Nobel Peace Prize Committee as elitst although he does qualify his statements by asking for the unconditional release of the imprisoned Chinese political dissident, but prompting a critical response from Llosa in which he argues that the peace prize not only acknowledges China's extraordinary economic progress, but also it's brutality in the political field. Both of us agree that the statement by Geim deserve mention because it was picked up by a major news outlet ( http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/liu-xiaobo-wrong-man-for-nobel-peace-prize-say-laureates/story-e6frg6so-1225969772275) and that the exchange deserves only fleeting mention in accordance with WP:WEIGHT, but Betsy wishes to include the remarks only Geim but delete the remarks by Llosa on the grounds that "the remarks are not about Geim or about any major part of Geim's career." [48] and further justifies his/her position by drawing to the parallel examples of Bush and Guinta and how because their views don't have any counterposing viewpoints, the remarks by Llosa should stay delete. I post a lengthy rebuttal [49] telling her that just because counterposing viewpoints of Bush and Guinta's viewpoints on the axis of evil and social security respectively aren't written on their Wikipedia page "doesn't mean that criticisms about those views cannot be posted (as is the case of what you are trying to do by having Llosa's remarks about Geim's Nobel Peace Prize Committee removed)" [50] and how there is no "Wikipedia guideline that says statements of criticisms about the comments by the person who is the subject of the Wikipedia entry shall not be made if statements of other people do not have the viewpoints of their opponents." [51] Still, she is adamant that the remarks stay removed, while I find her to be stonewalling, and this is where things stand at this point. It would be much appreciated if someone could give us an NPOV on this issue. Fellytone ( talk) 04:38, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
What do you think about leaving out Geim's comments as well? His Peace Prize comments were not very notable, as shown by general lack of media interest. It is true I had advocated for keeping them in the article, but I see that now Absolutef as well as JeremyMillier suggests removing the whole paragraph. Unless people here suggest otherwise, I think I will go along with their idea too. betsythedevine ( talk) 12:15, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I marked this version of the article 9 containing statements like "The Islamist mob desecrated and vandalized Hindu temples, a characteristic feature of Islamism") with the POV tag. Some of the sources cited are not neutral or reliable and much of the content is OR. The references cited at many places do not verify the text. One user reverted me with "persistent POV pushing by IP" edit summary and also slapped me with a warning. He did not responded to my messages showing the obvious POV in the article and continue to revert this article to the POV version along with another editor. Someone please look this article and also the user conduct. 14.139.128.14 ( talk) 12:51, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Hy there, I don't know if this the right place to make this request for help. I'm currently involved in the discussion of two move-requests, namely Kosher tax (antisemitic canard) towards Kosher tax and Allegations of Jewish control of the media towards Jewish control of the media (antisemitic canard). I think, but I'm not absolutely sure not being a native English-speaker, that the (antisemitic canard)-names are against NPOV and more specifically against WP:NDESC. IMHO 'Kosher tax (antisemitic canard)' and 'Jewish control of the media (antisemitic canard)' pass an extremely explicit judgement on the subject. I'm right, aren't I? Are there other policies concerning this matter? Flamarande ( talk) 16:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC) If this post was placed in the wrong noticeboard I would appreciate if someone showed me the proper one. Thanks.
The Criticism of Muhammad page is written as a "history of" insults, slander and defamatory statements, not a page of criticisms regarding merits and faults of the work or actions of an individual. most of these statements don't specifically mention any incidents they simply are profane statements which do not enrich or add to peoples knowledge just that simply these people made these derogatory statements throughout history.
here are a list of some of these remarks,
[how can you offer an apposing point of view when dealing with these individually would require a page on its own, its little more than name calling]
This page is also in violation of the content spin out and forking policy which states "If a statement is inadmissible for content policy reasons at an article [[XYZ]], then it is also inadmissible at a spinout [Criticism of XYZ]]" Therefore, any content that wouldn't be allowed in the Muhammad article shouldn't be allowed there. As None of these remarks present an argument they are simply labels and this is the foundation of what a criticism is, It is difficult to find an apposing point of view since they contain no context and you don't know what they are referring to so you are left making assumptions. The POV:forks states "if the word "criticism" must be used, make sure that such criticism considers both the merits and faults, and is not entirely negative (consider what would happen if a "Praise of..." article was created instead)".
Compare the Criticism of Muhammad page with the Criticism of Noam Chomsky page and its obvious this page is sub par and not up to the standard of normal wiki content which often occurs when a page is primarily dedicated to documenting profane and defamatory statements as apposed to presenting a criticism which appeals to an individuals intellect.
I also don't think it meats the criteria of the " Wikipedia:Criticism" page. i have posted on this notice board and was advised to come here. Ibn kathir ( talk) 03:15, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
My argument against its profane language is not interns of censorship, I've seen wiki policy regarding use of profane language and the way that it's worded is that it is allowed where it adds value to an article, it isn't referring to an article whose entire purpose is to list every profane statement in history and label them as criticism because they are passing judgment, which is pretty much what current editors have reduced the argument to on the talk page. Ibn kathir ( talk) 04:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I've just noticed that the 'Further Reading' section in Political correctness is divided into 'For' (5 entries), 'Against' (14 entries after I removed an article link) and 'Skeptical' (2). I would have thought this doesn't comply with NPOV but I can't find anything specific on this. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 16:26, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I've gotten rid of the inane classification scheme, and removed all of the books that are not about political correctness. The selection of sources there is garbage though, and higher-quality sources should be found. -- Jrtayloriv ( talk) 20:59, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
I seem to have protected this page indefinitely last year - which seems odd as I know that it is only in exceptional circumstances that a page will be protected indefinitely and this wasn't one of those. I can only assume either my mind or my mouse slipped. Anyway, an official of the college has complained on the talk page that the introduction is libellous and that the sources are no longer verifiable. This doesn't seem to be the case and there are more sources including recent sources calling this college a diiploma or degree mill. What I would like is help from uninvolved editors making sure that the article is npov. I've unprotected the article of course. Thanks. Dougweller ( talk) 15:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
We have a bunch of edits that have completely changed the page Recent African origin of modern humans, Was going to mass revert as its clear that the edits were done to support multiregional origin of modern humans. The whole page has been converted to this theory. Statements after statement have been added to dismiss this pages concept. Ref added for this purpose are old or misunderstood. Before i revert would like a second opinion as we have blanking of refs etc... Moxy ( talk) 16:17, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Seems this subject (and some related pages) is subject to contentious edit-warring between his fans and his detractors. I had created what I felt was a neutral version, by cutting out both flowery praise and unsourced criticism of the subject, but the edit-warring resumed as soon as protection was lifted, so it was re-instated. I could use a few more eyes here to help keep this BLP in line. — The Hand That Feeds You: Bite 13:30, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
User Bali Ultimate and Administrator RD232 have been deleting (Bali ULtimate's deletions: [53]; [54]; [55]; [56]) (RD232's deletions: [57]; [58]) additions of criticisms of CounterPunch on it's Wikipedia entry on the grounds that either the sources are "biased" or that there is a talk-page consensus (it is not said what consensus is established on the talk-page, and even if a consensus about X topic was said to exist it is unlikely that it actually would have existed given my objection to it even though) even though:
Of course, Bali ultimate and RD232 will defend their actions as legitimate because (apparently) any criticism of CounterPunch is "biased" although anybody with common sense would call the removal of edits on CounterPunch cited from legitimate sources for no reason as nothing more than censorship. Fellytone ( talk) 00:37, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Copied from the talk page of the Jerusalem article:
"How should Jerusalem be described? The whole of Jerusalem is under Israeli control and, under Israeli law, Jerusalem has been annexed to Israel and is its capital city. Many Israeli government organisations have been moved to the city. Under international law, Jerusalem is not part of the sovereign territory of any state and Israeli laws concerning it are invalid.
"There has been extensive discussion, running over a number of sections of the article's talk page, about whether it should be stated positively that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel (the current description in the article's Lead) or whether this should be qualified and defined as the Israeli point of view."
Despite extensive discussion, no very clear consensus has been reached over what wording to use. I've raised RfCs on this issue at the Politics, Government and Law and History and Geography RfC noticeboards in the hope of raising more participation. Since the issue concerns how to word the article neutrally, I've also brought it here.
← ZScarpia 01:14, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
The death panel article has a section on allegations that the Britain's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence or NICE is a death panel which rations care by denying access to treatments. I felt that the original text repeated the allegation more than once and used the same reference in two different places to make the same point. I also felt that the section was unbalanced because it did not state the true consequences of NICE decisions. So I deleted the repetition and inserted a balancing counter argument with the following text, supporting it with reliable sources.
Strictly speaking, a negative NICE decision on a new cancer drug does not deny access to that drug and are not necessarily a death knell for the patient. Patients will have two main choices. They can go outside the NHS for treatment, (paying the full cost themselves or their insurer's co-pays and deductibles if they have private medical insurance). Alternatively they can choose stay in the NHS and co-fund the cost of their treatment, again either out of pocket or through top-up insurance. [1] Private insurance for coverage against having to pay for cancer drugs costs about £50 a year for a 50 year old man (about US$80, or double this for a smoker). [1] The NHS actually funds 100% of the cost of most cancer drugs [2] and the effect of NICE decisions is that this sometimes causes the coverage rate to fall below 100%. Not covering 100% of drug costs is what almost all insurance companies in Palin's America do all the time, although they do not call it rationing. [3]
Another editor has undone my edit claiming that my own edit was "highly POV".
In my opinion, HIS (or HER) repeating the duplicated text and its reference and in particular the REMOVAL of the counter position defending the organization IS ITSELF a highly POV edit.
Clearly we cannot both be right. What is the right way forward? The edit has been inserted and removed several times and the article is covered by an article probation in an effort to contain edit warring. Therefore I seek guidance here from uninvolved parties. Hauskalainen2 ( talk) 09:05, 18 January 2011 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, a negative NICE decision on a new cancer drug does not deny access to that drug and are not necessarily a death knell for the patient. Patients will have two main choices. They can go outside the NHS for treatment, (paying the full cost themselves or their insurer's co-pays and deductibles if they have private medical insurance). Alternatively they can choose stay in the NHS and co-fund the cost of their treatment, again either out of pocket or through top-up insurance. [66] Private insurance for coverage against having to pay for cancer drugs costs about £50 a year for a 50 year old man (about US$80, or double this for a smoker). [67] The NHS actually funds 100% of the cost of most cancer drugs [68] and the effect of NICE decisions is that this sometimes causes the coverage rate to fall below 100%. Not covering 100% of drug costs is what almost all insurance companies in Palin's America do all the time, although they do not call it rationing. [69]
Gosh - the wording is fully argumentative and makes statements which are not clearly correct to boot. How much is "cancer insurance" for a person with a history of cancer in his family and other risk factors? I would wager it is well over 50 pounds a year! And a person who has had cancer in the past? Likely uninsurable even in the UK. Nor are "cancer drugs" the sole thing which NICE can deny coverage for - making all of this a bit like an ad for NICE, rather than an accurate review of facts avoiding SYNTH and OR (which abound in it). What might work is:
which, if sourced, is properly neutral. The rest is simple argumentation, and states "facts" which are OR or possibly not even applicable to actual patients. Collect ( talk) 12:15, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
At the risk of asking a silly question, why is the Death Panel article anywhere near as long as it is? The term itself is one of pure political rhetoric. Whether one views the term as legitimately descriptive or not, I honestly can't see the value of expanding this article to a state where it merely serves to throw gasoline on the fire of Wikipedia's factional infighting. I would advise leaving the article at little more than the intro. Hiberniantears ( talk) 18:36, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
I actually would go along with that myself. The problem has been that some editors for reasons best known to themselves seem to have been expanding the article into areas completely unconnected with Palin's concept of a Death Panel (an imaginary Panel that she thought Obama might have to invent because to turn people away from getting help because with his new law there would suddenly be a lot more insured people seeking medical help and she assumed for some reason that Obama would start turning away the elderly and the mentally ill). They have turned to the IPAB (a body that does not even exist yet) and to NICE (a body which operates in the UK under UK law to ensure that public money spent on health actually delivers the best health benefits with the available money). Neither as far as I can see have ANYTHING to do with Palin's catchy phrase, but the slightest mention of them has triggered a justification in the minds of some for their inclusion. I can only assume that this is because the original idea was so ridiculous an effort has to be made to somehow bury the original idea and replace it with a new one which they think has more credibility. The article has to either counter those views (which are ridiculous and have to be countered if they are presented in order give the article a NPOV) OR, as you say, they really should not be in there because it is a stretch too far. I'd go along with you if you can persuade the team of Palinista's at work on this article to give up the fight. I wish you well! 80.223.188.55 ( talk) 02:19, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I believe that there is a POV being pushed by one editor, to the effect that references to "death panels" in published sources are presented as references to some sort of mythological creature like a gryphon or unicorn, and have no real-world reference point. This is clearly incorrect. Reliable sources link the term to NICE and IPAB. You may argue that they are incorrect in making the connection, but the fact remains that they did make it, so it belongs in the article under NPOV. Angel's flight ( talk) 03:08, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
They are about as different from each other as it possible to be with the one exception that they are in the health care sector. If there is to be a comparison then NICE is much more like the bodies that exist in the private insurance companies that decide whether or not a particular treatment in a particular setting should be funded from the insurance pool. Similar because they both are concerned with clinical effectiveness for the patient, but dissimilar in that the insurer can choke off funding whereas NICE guidelines are only advisory to NHS trusts. There is only one area where NICE guidelines are not advisory. As the NHS Constitution for England makes clear, a treatment regime approved by NICE must be made available by all NHS trusts in England.
Does User:Angel's flight dispute any of this? If so what? And on what grounds does his reliable sources have for connecting these two bodies? I think we should be told. Hauskalainen ( talk) 04:31, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Is this edit using a source from Fox News to say that Richard Falk is a "9/11 Truther" valid? The source doesn't even say this (it just says he wrote the Foreword for a book on alternative theories related to 9/11). Also, I don't think that this Fox News opinion article is really a useful source anyway, even if it wasn't being misrepresented. Thank you for your consideration.
Sincerely, 207.118.98.18 ( talk) 17:39, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Someone created this as a "proposed" noticeboard, however it can be used in very negative ways against users as the generally bad reviews on the talk page show. Feel free to comment there. (Or even MfD it.) CarolMooreDC ( talk) 00:26, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Should this article be tagged for neutrality, original research and synthesis? (Posted to both neutrality and OR noticeboards.)
The concept was developed in the book Radical Right, with contributors Daniel Bell, Richard Hofstadter, Seymour Martin Lipset, Peter Viereck, Daniel Bell, Talcott Parsons and others. [70] Lipset wrote a history of the Radical Right. [71] More recently books have been written about the Radical Right by Sara Diamond, [72], Chip Berlet, [73] and others.
User:Collect says that "The references used are not checkable on line - zero...."
TFD ( talk) 15:20, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
(od) You need properly sourced claims making the linkage. It is OR and SYNTH to make the linkage on your own without a proper secondary source doing so explicitly. And claims must be accurately reflected by the cite used, else the entire project collapses. At this point, so such source has been furnished for that article. Collect ( talk) 16:21, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Hal Blackwell “Secrets of the Skim” on Amazon
My name is Hal Blackwell and I use Wikipedia frequently. I have a somewhat embarrassing question/dilemma. After registering and reading the rules I understand it is not appropriate for me to do an autobiographical entry. I have written a book, “Secrets of the Skim”, which is a Hub City Writer’s project #5 selection for 2010 (even though the book was only available since the publishing date, June 5, 2010). The book is an expose’ of the US wealth management industry and recounts my employment at Merrill Lynch during the financial crisis. I have appeared on the Fox Business News as an financial industry expert and been interviewed by several other national media outlets. Business Insider has done a story about my work. I have lectured at the University of South Carolina Upstate and speak frequently about my experiences at Merrill Lynch. I am the president of HE Blackwell Advisors. I would appreciate very much an unbiased Wikipedia article regarding my work. Any takers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halblackwell ( talk • contribs) 18:44, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
Please feel free to ask me any questions you may have. AerobicFox ( talk) 03:05, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Here is the link to my Fox Appearance- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvuqcIaiXg8, This is the link to my Business Insider story- http://www.businessinsider.com/what-does-wiki-leaks-have-on-bank-of-america-2010-12, Here is the link to my Amazon- http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Skim-financial-institutional-management/dp/1449946933/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276223734&sr=1-1.
The Controversy section of this article reads like a pure one-sided rebuttal of the weapon's critics. Particularly glaring is the scolds within the quotebox and the text, the catty emphasis on how the legislation failed ("Once again, the bill failed to proceed to a vote."), and the general tone that portrays the weapon's critics as fools.
I intend to fix these problems in the days to come but I'd like to hear other people's views first.-- Father Goose ( talk) 20:29, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Ok, I've now studied the article in depth. I'd like to preface my comments by saying that I have no stake in the "controversy" one way or the other. The Five-seven seems like a pretty good gun, and the article is also pretty good, neutrality issues notwithstanding.
I'd say the most notable thing bout the gun is that it is the only widely available pistol that fires PDW rounds. This type of cartridge (small and fast) has inherent armor-piercing properties; it isn't just a question of special AP ammo being available. And while the article does mention these traits of PDW rounds, it also does what it can to play down the armor-piercing ability of the non-AP rounds. There is a plausible claim that even the civilian rounds have AP qualities. This claim should be presented neutrally, not denied at every turn.
Here are the problems in greater detail:
-- Father Goose ( talk) 01:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)