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    Citation templates
    ... in conception
    ... and in reality

    Refactoring the code for the final rendering

    Hello everyone! While translating the module into Russian, I encountered one issue - some participants do not want to use the CMS or APA style, but prefer styles that correspond to their own language. For Russian, this is GOST.

    I attempted to fix the render [1], but it was very challenging because the entire rendering is scattered throughout the code and sometimes is completely illogical and opaque.

    I believe that since individual languages and language projects have different standards for source representation (different component order, formatting, different sets of data), it would be very helpful to simplify editing this representation in a common module. Having the ability to remove italics and bold, as well as rearrange components, would be beneficial.

    In ruwiki, there are specific templates that I want to transfer to this module, but it's necessary for them to be able to change the render when a certain parameter is entered. For example: citation_style = gost.

    Source {{cite journal |last1=Aries |first1=Myriam B. C. |last2=Newsham |first2=Guy R. |date=2008 |title=Effect of daylight saving time on lighting energy use: a literature review |url=http://archive.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/pubs/nrcc49212/nrcc49212.pdf |journal=Energy Policy |volume=36 |issue=6 |pages=1858–1866 |doi=10.1016/j.enpol.2007.05.021}}
    APA/CMS Aries, Myriam B. C.; Newsham, Guy R. (2008).  "Effect of daylight saving time on lighting energy use: a literature review" (PDF). Energy Policy36 (6): 1858—1866.  doi: 10.1016/j.enpol.2007.05.021.
    GOST Aries Myriam B. C., Newsham Guy R. Effect of daylight saving time on lighting energy use: a literature review [PDF]. // Energy Policy. — 2008. — Vol. 36. — Is. 6. — P. 1858–1866. — doi: 10.1016/j.enpol.2007.05.021.
    DIN Aries, Myriam B. C.; Newsham, Guy R.: " Effect of daylight saving time on lighting energy use: a literature review", Energy Policy, 2008, Vol. 36, Iss. 6, pp. 1858–1866. DOI: 10.1016/j.enpol.2007.05.021.

    Iniquity ( talk) 20:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC) reply

    These templates are not CMS or APA but instead a mix of a few, and include other qualities that differ from either that we have added, so a bit of a false premise there.
    Ignoring that, I have thought a few times about making more of the components of this system into 'libraries' that could be used from other citation styles. Maybe all the subpages can be today? I don't know and am pretty sure not based on some of the opinionated choices CS1 makes (mostly around "missing" information) which I'm pretty sure is in the subpages and not the primary module. If all the subpages were CS1 agnostic, that would get you most of the way there with potentially some duplication in the primary module. Izno ( talk) 16:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Yes, there is a problem that part of the rendering is taken from the main module (for example, italics or boldness), and part from the configuration (for example, prefixes). This makes it very difficult to edit. Iniquity ( talk) 11:14, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Cite book problem where "work" is not allowed

    I'm not sure what was intended. I went to the archived source and it seems to be part of a book. Pearl Milling Company#cite note-BIA-1Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 22:55, 23 February 2024 (UTC) reply

    Looks like a junk citation to me:
    {{cite book|last=Kern-Foxworth|first=Marilyn|title=Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben and Rastus: Blacks in advertising, Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow|publisher=Connecticut and London: Greenwood Press|year=1994|url=http://testaae.greenwood.com/doc_print.aspx?fileID=GR5184&chapterID=GR5184-561&path=books/greenwood|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140424192836/http://testaae.greenwood.com/doc_print.aspx?fileID=GR5184&chapterID=GR5184-561&path=books%2Fgreenwood|archive-date=April 24, 2014|work=Public Relations Review|volume=16 (Fall):59}}
    • template uses {{ cite book}} but seems to be citing something (a review?) in Public Relations Review
    • template links to what appears to be the book publisher: Greenwood Press
    • at the bottom of the archive snapshot of the chapter(?) the publisher provides MLA and CMOS citations; neither mention Public Relations Review though the author does have an article in that journal that is used as a source for the 'cited' article/chapter/whatever. Note that the referenced article is is from the same journal issue as is mentioned in the junk citation:
      —— (Autumn 1990). "Plantation kitchen to American icon: Aunt Jemima". Public Relations Review. 16 (3): 55–67. doi: 10.1016/S0363-8111(05)80069-4.
    Have you discussed this with the editor who created the junk citation? (perhaps this edit at Aunt Jemima?) What is it that they are really trying to cite? A chapter in a book? A book review? A journal article?
    Regardless, the citation is junk so the error message is correct and not the fault of {{cite book}}.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 00:07, 24 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    They've combined two refs that are for different works. One is for a book called "Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben, and Rastus: Blacks in Advertising, Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow" and the other is an article titled "Plantation kitchen to American icon: Aunt Jemima". The article ref was being used to support a quote that is no longer used in either article, so the |work= and |volume= details can just be removed. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 00:55, 24 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    I forgot I had even asked this question. So what should be done with the ref?— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 16:19, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    Figure out which of the two sources best supports the en.wiki article text and then adjust the the template accordingly.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 16:35, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    So far the source that was linked to seems to support the content but there are six places it is used. "Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben, and Rastus: Blacks in Advertising, Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow" by Marilyn Kern-Foxworth but I can't tell what the publisher or work might be.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 17:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    I can't find "rice flour and corn sugar" in the source.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 17:40, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply

    Module access

    Is there a reason why Module:Citation/CS1 does not accept access from modules that pass "frame.args" and insists on requiring "frame:getParent().args" ? Are you open to allowing others to add such an feature ? Snævar ( talk) 14:26, 25 February 2024 (UTC) reply

    In cs1|2, each template {{#invoke}}s Module:Citation/CS1 with at least one parameter needed by the module to identify the calling template: {{ cite book}}, {{ cite journal}}, {{ cite news}}, {{ cite web}}, {{ citation}}, etc. For example, {{ cite book}} has this:
    {{#invoke:citation/CS1|citation
    |CitationClass=book
    }}
    
    |CitationClass= is passed to the module in the frame object. To get the parameters from this {{cite book}}:
    {{cite book |title=Title |date=2024 |publisher=Publisher}}
    the module must consult the parent frame object.
    This was how the module has worked more-or-less from its inception. The primary and overriding purpose of the module is to support the cs1|2 templates. To the best of my knowledge, no one has proposed expanding that purpose to other modules. Why do you want to do it?
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 15:28, 25 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    It is quite common for modules to have access for other modules, both here on the English Wikipedia and on other sites like Wikimedia Commons. Citation/CS1 is going against the wind on this one. One module, or a set of them in this case, does not set the norms, the majority of the modules do. As for usecases, they are allready here, there are a lot of modules and templates due to this module access not being in place. These modules and templates are: Module:Cite arXiv, Module:Cite bioRxiv, Module:Cite book, Module:Cite conference, Module:Cite document, Module:Cite encyclopedia, Module:Cite episode, Module:Cite interview, Module:Cite journal, Module:Cite magazine, Module:Cite mailing list, Module:Cite map, Module:Cite medRxiv, Module:Cite news, Module:Cite newsgroup, Module:Cite podcast, Module:Cite press release, Module:Cite report, Module:Cite serial, Module:Cite sign, Module:Cite speech, Module:Cite tech report, Module:Cite thesis and Module:Cite web. As for the templates it is a bunch of substitution templates with similar names, although I do know the reason for their existance is a bit different and unlike the modules might be justified. I am not trying to offend anyone by saying this, but this list of modules feels like an garbage dump. The only difference between these modules is the CitationClass and what title they return.
    @ User:Pppery: I think you are going to like this. Is it not worth getting rid of 24 nearly identical modules, by merging them into one? Snævar ( talk) 05:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    "The only difference between these modules is the CitationClass and what title they return." There's a lot more differences than class and 'title', whatever you mean by that. The different modules accept different parameters, and format them differently. {{ cite arxiv}} for instance, does not support |journal/volume/issue/isbn= etc... Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 20:31, 16 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Inconsistent handling of ref=sfnref on desktop v mobile

    If a citation uses a quoted name in sfnref (e.g., |ref={{sfnref|"Technical Report"|2021}}, it works fine and looks fine in desktop view. But viewed on mobile, it generates a harv error: the citations see no target source and the source sees no incoming citations. For a real world example, see https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=East_West_Rail&oldid=1210714109 . Removing the quotes fixes the problem. (In case it matters, "mobile" means Android+Chrome, "desktop" means ChromeBook+Chrome.)

    Presumably this needs reporting somewhere, but where? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 11:00, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply

    That's bizarre. For convenience, here's a link that shows the offending behaviour via "Mobile view" on a desktop. I notice however, that the click-function 'References -> Sources' works as expected. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 13:03, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    I don't see any error on desktop or mobile, but I'm only using the basic error messages rather than using a acript. This could be an issue with script your using, I suggest reporting the error at User talk:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 14:40, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply
    ( edit conflict)
    Unlikely that this a cs1|2 or Module:Footnotes issue because neither distinguish mobile view from desktop view. I suspect that this is the same problem described at phab:T348928 where MediaWiki is incorrectly url-encoding the short-form link when it should be anchor-encoding the link:
    {{urlencode:CITEREF"Technical Report"2021}} → CITEREF%22Technical+Report%222021
    {{anchorencode:CITEREF"Technical Report"2021}} → CITEREF"Technical_Report"2021
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 14:45, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply

    PMID limit increase

    Please see the page 2024 in arthropod paleontology - the PMID limit should be increase, as it gives false positives on PMID values that are over 38400000, such as 38401545. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 23:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply

    Edition ordinals

    This is a repeat of a proposal that has been made twice before:

    I quote Matthiaspaul:

    This would help to further decouple semantics (which edition?) from presentation (f.e. "3rd ed."). It would not only make it easier to add common edition information, but also improve readability, maintainability and translatability, and it would allow to centrally change the rendering in the future, would this become necessary ("3rd ed.", "third ed.", "third edition" etc.), depending on the output device (f.e., display the abbreviated form "3rd ed." on the small display of a mobile device, but "third edition" on a desktop or printout), or target language (e.g. "third edition", "dritte Ausgabe", etc.).

    Jc3s5h suggests that sometimes, particularly for software, there is a "3 edition" which is distinct from a "3rd edition". As a native English speaker I don't perceive a difference between "3rd edition" or "edition 3". They are essentially interchangeable. "3 edition" is just wrong. If the edition name is "3", then it should be displayed as "3rd ed.".

    Trappist the monk raised concerns about "other languages where the cs1|2 module suite is used". While I want to respect the challenge of maintainability of the CS1 suite across Wikipedia sites in various languages, and am wholly unaware of the systems in place for this, I don't think this needs to hold us back here. Changing this could be as simple as adding the following to Template:Cite book when it invokes the module, without even modifying the module to be English-specific.

    {{Ifnumber|{{{edition|}}}|{{Ordinal|{{{edition}}}}}|{{{edition|}}}}}
    

    I find Matthiaspaul's description of the benefits to be compelling, and don't understand the downsides to this feature. Daask ( talk) 21:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    I don't know the context of the line of code provided by Daask, or what programming language it is in. But if "Ifnumber" does what I think it does it would be unacceptable. Here is an example of a citation that would be a problem:
    Cite book comparison
    Wikitext {{cite book|date=2010|edition=2011|isbn=978 1 11 154223 8|location=Quincy, MA|publisher=National Fire Protection Association|title=NFPA 70: National Electrical code}}
    Live NFPA 70: National Electrical code (2011 ed.). Quincy, MA: National Fire Protection Association. 2010. ISBN  978 1 11 154223 8.
    Jc3s5h ( talk) 22:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    The proposed (pseudo?)code does not reflect the discussion. As far as I can tell from reading the linked discussion, that citation would not be affected, since the edition number is greater than 99. – Jonesey95 ( talk) 20:49, 2 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Was helping a user with Draft:Halkalı-Bahçeşehir Rail System and noticed that the bot didn't exactly subst the template properly. Is this an issue with the wrapper or with the original placement of the template? Primefac ( talk) 13:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Oneida is missing from the recognized languages

    Oneida has the ISO 639-3 code one. [1] Can this be added so Oneida sources no longer show up under Category:CS1_maint:unrecognized language?

    References

    Snowman304| talk 05:22, 7 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Not recognized by MediaWiki:
    one ← {{#language:one|en}}
    so you'll have to spell it out: |language=Oneida.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 13:04, 7 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Hi Trappist, thanks for the quick response. I'm looking at Morris Swadesh, and I can't figure out what the unrecognized language would be except for Oneida, which is spelled out. Snowman304| talk 19:22, 7 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    That's the one (pun not really intended). cs1|2 emits the maintenance message because Oneida is not a language name recognized by MediaWiki. The whole list of MediaWiki-recognized languages and their tags is at Template:Citation Style documentation/language/doc.
    See Help:CS1 errors § Controlling error message display to show the cs1|2 maintenance messages.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 20:18, 7 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    OCLC limit hit

    See for example OCLC  10146270069, which exceeds the current limit of 10100000000. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 01:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Same for PMC limits, which now exceed 10900000. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 02:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Nonsensical error when title=none is set

    The following gives a "CS1 maint: untitled periodical" maintenance message, but clearly the periodical is named here.

    Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 02:12, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    The warning message is unfortunately worded. What it should say is "article title missing in periodical" or something similar. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 02:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Which would also be an error, because the title is willingly bypassed. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 04:41, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    S2CID still needs an update

    Looks like someone last mentioned this a few months ago. The S2CID limit is still too low. For example, /info/en/?search=Pry_(novel) has a working article with an ID of 268071715. Can we maybe bump it up to 269000000 (or 270000000, if we're feeling cheeky)? Snowman304| talk 07:27, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    url-status when archive-url is also dead

    When you set url-status to "dead", it signals to use the archive-url by default. But what do you do when the archive-url is also dead, and you can't immediately find a working archive? Mokadoshi ( talk) 12:49, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    The best solution would be to find a new source, but otherwise I would suggest removing the archive parameters (|archive-url=, |archive-date= and |url-status=), and adding {{ dead link}} with the |fix-attempted=yes parameter after the cite. Defunct archive URLs are pretty worthless. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 15:51, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    • You'd also need to update iabot.org otherwise IABot will likely re-add the non-working archive URL. -- Green C 16:12, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Are you sure that IABot would do this on a link that is marked permanently dead? And if so, how exactly do I make this fix? Mokadoshi ( talk) 16:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I agree. Thanks! Mokadoshi ( talk) 16:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    extended definitions for Latn character set

    This template fails because the character 'ạ' (U+1EA1 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH DOT BELOW) is not recognized by the Vancouver tests (Vancouver allows only Latin characters):

    Cite book comparison
    Wikitext {{cite book|first=Lê Cao|last=Đại|name-list-style=vanc|publisher=Vietnam Red Cross Society|title=Agent Orange in the Vietnam War: History and Consequences|year=2000}}
    Live Đại LC (2000). Agent Orange in the Vietnam War: History and Consequences. Vietnam Red Cross Society.
    Sandbox Đại LC (2000). Agent Orange in the Vietnam War: History and Consequences. Vietnam Red Cross Society.

    The fix supports characters from Latin Extended Additional (U+1E00–U+1EFF).

    Trappist the monk ( talk) 23:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    module suite update 23–24 March 2024

    I propose to update cs1|2 module suite over the weekend 23–24 March 2024. Here are the changes:

    Module:Citation/CS1

    • removed temporary Julian–Gregorian uncertainty categorization; discussion
    • combine extra-text tests for |volume= and |issue=; discussion
    • fix bug related to hyphenated given names when reducing to initials for vancouver style; discussion
    • add |script-encyclopedia= and |trans-encyclopedia=; discussion
    • allow |mode=cs1 and |postscript=none in {{ citation}}; discussion
    • fix long-term-sleeping bibcode/postscript interaction bug; discussion
    • fix archive.today timestamp check; discussion
    • cleanup tcommon assignments; discussion
    • extend latn char definition; discussion

    Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration

    • add doi free registrants: 1045 - D-Lib Magazine; 1074 and 1194 - American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology; 1096 - FASEB; 4249 - Scholarpedia; 5210 - University of Illinois Libraries; 7759 - Cureus; 14256 - Croatian Association of Civil Engineers; 15347 - Wikijournals; 22323 - SISSA
    • removed temporary Julian–Gregorian uncertainty categorization
    • combine extra-text tests for |volume= and |issue=
    • add |script-encyclopedia= and |trans-encyclopedia=
    • use tabular data file at commons for identifier limit values; discussion
    • removed doi free registrant 3410 - F1000; discussion
    • extend latn char definition;

    Module:Citation/CS1/Whitelist

    • add |script-encyclopedia= and |trans-encyclopedia=

    Module:Citation/CS1/Date validation

    • removed temporary Julian–Gregorian uncertainty categorization

    Module:Citation/CS1/styles.css

    Trappist the monk ( talk) 14:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    I've specified that 3410 is F1000 for future discussion. It's still a free registrant, it's just doing some fuckery with its access pages. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 20:06, 16 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Re: Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 93#Limits: the way to incorporate this into Wikidata for each identifier would be to use property constraint (P2302) > range constraint (Q21510860) > maximum value (P2312) & minimum value (P2313), per d:Help:Property constraints portal/Range#Example 1. Regarding fragility & vandalism, I think using Wikidata would be superior to c:Data:CS1/Identifier limits.tab, if only for the # of people already watching, for example, OCLC control number (P243), etc.   ~  Tom.Reding ( talkdgaf)  11:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Thanks for that. If I understand (not saying that I do), OCLC control number (P243) would get a new constraint as a Qid to be used on only seven identifier properties. The new Qid might be something like 'cs1 limit constraint'. Each of the seven identifier properties would get the new Qid constraint with a maximum value (P2312) constraint property. That would require us to go on bended knee to the Masters of Wikidata to plead for the new Qid. Pleading for a new Qid is the 'politics' to which I referred in the original discussion; politics that I would prefer to avoid. Tabular data at commons doesn't require a plea to the Masters of Commons; it is one file and it works.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 16:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    No new Qid and no pleading required! I can add all the appropriate min/max constraints to Wikidata. I just need to know the minimum values allowed for all of the identifiers @ c:Data:CS1/Identifier limits.tab.   ~  Tom.Reding ( talkdgaf)  00:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I've added the appropriate maximum value (P2312) to OCLC control number (P243), OSTI article ID (P3894), PMCID (P932), PubMed ID (P698), RfC ID (P892), SSRN article ID (P893), & Semantic Scholar paper ID (P4011), effectively duplicating c:Data:CS1/Identifier limits.tab in Wikidata.   ~  Tom.Reding ( talkdgaf)  17:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I don't think that was a wise thing to do. I don't think that we should apply a constraint that isn't qualified to be a cs1|2-only constraint. What you have done, I think, is apply the cs1|2-only limits as constraints for any use of those identifier properties. That is why I said that I think to use wikidata we must have a cs1|2 Qid and to do that we must petition the Masters of Wikidata on bended knee.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 17:59, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    What you have done, I think, is apply the cs1|2-only limits as constraints for any use of those identifier properties. - correct. I don't see why OOB values should exist on Wikidata (unless that limit has yet to be updated after a recent bump). If there are no legitimate uses for OOB values, then I don't see why those limits shouldn't be in Wikidata, regardless of whether or not cs1|2 uses them. If there are legitimate reasons, either I or someone else will remove them.   ~  Tom.Reding ( talkdgaf)  18:13, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I'm still not convinced but that may be a moot point. Unless I'm missing something, Wikibase does not provide a mechanism for getting a property of a property that isn't part of an entity (Qid). See Wikibase Lua doc. Yeah, if you know the title of the work and it matches the label used in Wikidata, you can get a Qid (mw.wikibase.getEntityIdForTitle ('The Decameron')Q16438 but the name in Italian: mw.wikibase.getEntityIdForTitle ('Il Decamerone')nil). We must always be able to get to the identifier limits; we can do that easily with commons tabular data.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 23:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Izno: Whatever it is that you did to Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox/styles.css has broken the css for minerva (icons too big), monobook (icons clipped), and timeless (icons too big) skins. See these testcases at my sandbox (permalink):
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 17:15, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Yes, I know. I'm not done. Izno ( talk) 17:16, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Sorted. Izno ( talk) 17:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Ummm, really? Minerva, monobook, and timeless still looked borked to me.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 17:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Your revisions are stuck in parser cache. Review my user page instead in the various skins. Izno ( talk) 18:12, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Just for ease:
    Izno ( talk) 18:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Yep.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 23:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Best practice for when to use "n.d." vs. leaving blank

    The documentation for CS1 currently includes When a source does not have a publication date, use |date=n.d.. However, for citations of things like web pages that don't have a date, I find it much more common to just leave out the date parameter rather than specifying that it has been omitted.

    I'm curious to hear from others, what do you think the best practice should be for this? Sdkb talk 21:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    (I see in the archives that there has also been discussion about possibly using "undated" instead of "n.d." or adding a tooltip. If folks want to pick that up, please open a subthread so that we can keep everything organized. Cheers, Sdkb talk 21:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)) reply
    Blank is definitely common, but blank can mean, "there was a date, but I didn't fill it in" or "it is undated". An "n.d." clarifies, so is better. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 23:19, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I've seen |date=<!--no date-->, which at least clarifies it for editors. Sdkb talk 23:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I guess the thing that makes me uncomfortable about it is that we don't call out the absence of any other element in CS1 citations that I know of. If there's no DOI, or issue number, or second author, we don't designate that, but rather just leave the space blank. I'm open to being persuaded, but my intuition is that it'd be most consistent to adopt the same stance here (or at least to specify something like that "n.d." should only be used in situations where readers might normally expect there to be a date). Sdkb talk 23:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    In principle, everything that is published is published on some date (except maybe something like search results that are generated on a certain date, but if we're talking that, the access date is identical), but virtually any other field is something that could not be there (not URI for a web page, of course). ― Justin (koavf)TCM 00:01, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Indagate: Please undo your edit to the template and participate here. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 13:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Didn't see this before reverting you there, seems best to leave the status quo for now until consensus is established for its inclusion. It's far from standard practice for web pages without a date to include n.d., pages are updated without any date being updated so the access-date in WP articles should be the latest date the information was updated if updated properly by editors. Including n.d. doesn't give readers any more information so seems redundant. Indagate ( talk) 14:22, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Did you see the instructions at Template:Cite web? There is nothing redundant here. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 14:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Yes, I read the parts about date there, but don't think I've seen any cite web using date=n.d. for websites without a date like Rotten Tomatoes so it doesn't reflect standard practice so doesn't seem to have consensus already Indagate ( talk) 14:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    There are a lot of rules that are broken or ignored: that doesn't justify breaking or ignoring them further. If there is some reason why we should not use "n.d.", then that should be incorporated into the template instructions. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 15:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    When there is a conflict between what the rules appear to say and what general practice is, as here, it's reasonable to keep the status quo while we work to resolve the underlying issue and figure out what guidance should say. This discussion is for figuring that out; let's stay focused on that. Sdkb talk 15:42, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Don't forget that {{ sfnp}} and related need something in the date field, even if it is means having to use {{sfnp|Doe|n.d.|page=123}}. The notation n.d. is reasonably well recognised and I don't know of any other conventions that are. But I guess it can be left to whoever is pulling together multiple citations of the same source to backfill it. -- 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 17:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Category:CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI

    This one. What is the purpose of this category? Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 17:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Does the documentation at Category:CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI not answer your question?
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 17:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Only the technical purpose, not why there is a maintenance category instead of automatically flagging all free DOIs. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 10:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    The implementing discussion is at Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 90 § Recognize free DOI prefixes.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 14:04, 19 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Add publication-date parameter to {{cite journal}}

    The {{cite book}} template already implements a separate publication-date parameter from CS1. Some journals and their articles have different publication-date, date and orig-date values. The latter is more flexible, but insufficient when there are three different dates, i.e. an article "orig-date=written 1930", published in a journal edition dated "date=2004-2005" and published "publication-date=2006". Ivan ( talk) 18:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Then the date is 2004-2005. The others are irrelevant. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 07:47, 21 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    In the case I have given, sources referencing it casually (i.e. without citation) will sometimes reference it with "1930", others with "2005", others with "2006", and if it was published in an issue of a periodical in 2004 whose contents were later published together with all other issues in 2006, then one will also encounter "2004". All for the same article.
    For citations, it might not matter much. But for bibliography articles, precision helps the reader avoid confusion. I am not a template editor. How would one go about incorporating the parameter for {{cite journal}}? This is the correct page to ask? Ivan ( talk) 17:55, 21 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Cite what you read. If you read an article in a periodical that was published in 2004, the date is 2004. If you were told that the article was republished in a set of bound things that contained all the articles the journal ever published, and that set was published in 2006, you don't care, you didn't read it. If I obtain the set of bound things and read the article, I'll put a publication date of 2006 in my citation. I could also add a parameter orig-date=2004. Jc3s5h ( talk) 01:58, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Cite what you read. Pardon my confusing wording above, but the need does not stem from the requirements of references but of bibliographies, where the works in question are the subject of the article. Some citation styles prefer the date of printing/publication (i.e. 1931), while others prefer the year published for (i.e. 1929/1930). It is not for the bibliographer to decide which must be used, and including both can help resolve confusion from the reader over which date to use given the style required of them. Posthumously published works excepted, most citation styles do not take the date of writing or reception into account, which would free up the orig-date parameter for the publication date, but in bibliographies that parameter is still needed to provide useful information to the reader; for example that the discrepancy between the publication date and that of a familiar author's death is due to posthumous publication. Ivan ( talk) 03:02, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    There's no different requirement in biographies. Something written in 1923 but published in 2012 has a date of 2012. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 03:08, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I am not referring to bibliography sections at the end of articles, but to annotated bibliography articles. The purpose is different. Something published 2012 but with a year number 2010/2011 can have a date of 2012, 2011, or even 2010 in the case I referred to in the second paragraph of this section, all depending on the citation style required in the context. But more scientific bibliography articles do not make the choice for the reader. And the only reason I mentioned date of writing is to show you why we cannot always simply add =published to the orig-date parameter.
    One of a dedicated bibliography article's purposes is to help the reader find the source detailed therein regardless of the system used in their library's catalogue, or any parametric restrictions imposed by said catalogue, or whichever means they end up using to find it. And to make them aware of any republications, English translations, and so on. I mentioned annotated bibliographies to give you an idea of how extensive the citations in those bibliographies can be on Wikipedia, just in case you are unaware of their existence on the project. Ivan ( talk) 03:30, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    It sounds like this article is a rare case that needs additional annotations outside of the citation template. Citation templates are not intended to handle all possible edge cases. – Jonesey95 ( talk) 13:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Actually, bibliography articles are a well-established genre on Wikipedia, and use citation templates quite frequently. Sometimes the bibliographies grow too long and the citations have to be converted to manual format to reduce the post-expand include size. Some editors don't use templates as a matter of preference. But for organising longer lists, which are often in a particular order, templates offer the freedom to place the parameter of organisation first, reducing the rate of misplaced items, and greatly speeding up the overall process.
    I am realising the opposition might stem from simply being unaware these articles exist, like Bibliography of fly fishing or List of important publications in geology, or Bibliography of encyclopedias. The latter is now mostly manual for size reasons, but it began with templates and would have been riddled with mistakes without them. It is only a minority of journals that require it, but I have already incorporatated hundreds of journal articles that have separate date and publication-date values in my to-be-published Wikipedia bibliographies, and my request is simply to enable a parameter already in use for {{cite book}}.
    Citation templates are not intended to handle all possible edge cases. Although such journals are in the minority, it is still very commonly encountered. Very. Other editors have managed to get by with manual additions thanks to the publisher parameter coming last in Citation Style 1, but that doesn't work as well when there are many entries. Nor does it fit as nicely as when it is an in-template parameter. Compare with the output of {{cite book}}: Last, First (2004–2005) [written 1930]. Title. Publisher (published 2006).{{ cite book}}: CS1 maint: date format ( link)
    I have no problem including most annotations outside the template. That is standard practice for editions, translations, reviews, et cetera. But publication-date ought to match {{cite book}} in style. It may not be important for books either, outside of bibliography articles. But most bibliographies on this encyclopedia were mostly books. Today there are many bibliography articles consisting partly or entirely of journal articles. It is time to make the {{cite journal}} template equally capable. Ivan ( talk) 18:58, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    If it was written in 1930, and was published in 2006, then the 2004-2005 date makes no sense. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 03:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    The 2004-2005 date is the "year date" (Jahrgang, ročnik, rocznik etc.). Not to be confused with "year number", which is distinct from volume number but the volume parameter will suffice in that case. Typically on the cover pages, marking the period during which works were submitted and/or originally published within issues that make up a volume. It is not uncommon for the year number to span multiple years, especially because of the school year. You can often get away with citing the year number under the |volume= or |issue= parameter in citations, but this is not appropriate for bibliographies, as these publications often have separate volume and issue numbers in addition to the year number, publication date, etc. The relationship between year number and volume number is often not 1:1, because most publications at least in my part of the world have been interrupted at some point, resulting in a year:volume mismatch. Here are some examples in order of increasing complexity:
    All three journals in the examples above went through changes in their publication cycle that prevents 1:1 conversion based on year or volume number, and even if the relationship was constant, these periodicals are catalogued differently from institution to institution. Some catalogues separate year date from publication date. But even advanced search options are usually limited to whichever of the various dates were selected by the institution. This is why it is so important that a bibliography include both. Ivan ( talk) 07:04, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Why is archive-date required when archive-url has the date?

    Maybe a stupid question, but why is |archive-date required and then checked for matching |archive-url even when the latter already contains the date, like archive.org urls normally do? Wouldn't it make sense to forgo the separate date and just take the one from the url? Or, if it's expected by some processing somewhere else, at least automatically populate the date upon submission instead of rising an error? Since subst exists, this can't be because there's a policy against modifying the user-submitted wikitext. 82.131.19.61 ( talk) 14:02, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    There may be archiving sites that format their URLs differently to archive.org. Certainly other archive organisations have been used in the past. Nigel Ish ( talk) 16:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Well, I think what I said would also apply to any other widely used archive that has timestamps included in its urls. With all of them, the date could be taken from the url. I'm not sure if the date is actually checked with any others besides archive.org, but it's this "we must check the date against the url if entered, but we won't populate the date from the url" one-way logic that I don't quite get. I seems like inconveniencing the user for no good reason (that I can think of). If the data is available, why error out and nag? EDIT: I mean this is not a sanity check, it's a check for an exact match. 82.131.19.61 ( talk) 16:55, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    news and web should allow Network and Station

    I tried to cite a clip from PBS NewsHour on the Orca page.

    I suppose PBS is the "Publisher" and the "work" is NewsHour, but that felt awkward and there is a more specific form for audio-visual sources.

    Unfortunately, the Serial citation suggests it should not be used for news shows. /info/en/?search=Template:Cite_serial says it is "for broadcast programs (television, radio, web) which use individual titles for a collection of episodes ... For serial publications, see {{ Cite news}} and {{ Cite journal}}."

    Unfortunately, making it a news citation caused the system to reject the network property. I assume it would also reject station, which might be essential for local news.

    My preference would be that the news and especially the web citation forms allow the additional Serial properties.

    My second choice -- which might be good even if the news and web citation forms are expanded -- would be that the instructions for Serial remove the word "individual" (when skimming, I thought it meant each episode had its own name, as some Sitcoms do), and change "For serial publications" to "For _written_ serial publications." JimJJewett ( talk) 19:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    It turns out the instructions are not protected, so I already made the 2nd set of changes, unless someone reverts it.
    I still think that the news citation form should also cater to broadcast news, and the web form should cater to everything, including broadcast clips re-published on youtube. JimJJewett ( talk) 19:46, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Is everything okay with COinS?

    Hi! When transferring the module to ruwiki, I decided to see how COinS generally live. The official website is dead [2], there is practically no documentation to be found. OpenURL is dead too [3]. The applications that use it also died, except for Zotero. Shouldn't we think about switching to a new format before everything becomes completely outdated? Or am I worrying in vain and everything is fine? Iniquity ( talk) 20:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    The only COinS documentation I have found is listed at Module talk:Citation/CS1/COinS. Another editor added Dublin Core and SVC (Scholarly Community Service Types?); neither of which are meaningful and should probably be deleted from that page. No doubt some of those documentation links are dead so archive snapshots should be located if possible.
    I don't know of any other metadata standard that could be used as a drop-in replacement for COinS.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 21:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    I don't know of any other metadata standard that could be used as a drop-in replacement for COinS.
    —  User:Trappist the monk 21:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

    Yes, I didn't find much either. Maybe this one - https://schema.org/Book (RDF/Microdata)? Iniquity ( talk) 22:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I guess I'm not convinced. Those schema appear to be intended as a way for publishers to provide a structured description of an online source – a purpose different from a citation. One of the very common things that editors do is cite particular pages from a book, often without reference to a chapter. Pagination does not appear to be a supported property for a book – it is for the chapter schema. A quicksearch didn't reveal how one might encoded a journal article – I didn't find a property for the journal name.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I asked a question on the Zotero forum, maybe they can help. I'll be back as soon as I have an answer. Iniquity ( talk) 23:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Question about volume parameter that contains New Series

    What is the proper way to cite a journal that has a volume parameter with "New Series" or "N.S."? For example, in Origin of the Huns:

    • {{cite journal |last=de la Vaissière |first=Étienne |title=Is There a "Nationality of the Hephtalites"? |journal=Bulletin of the Asia Institute |volume=N.S. 17 |year=2003 |pages=119–132 |jstor=24049310}}
    • de la Vaissière, Étienne (2003). "Is There a "Nationality of the Hephtalites"?". Bulletin of the Asia Institute. N.S. 17: 119–132. JSTOR  24049310. {{ cite journal}}: |volume= has extra text ( help)

    Thanks! GoingBatty ( talk) 23:21, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    |volume=17 + |series=New Series Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 23:28, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    See Help:Citation_Style_1#Edition_identifiers and note 3 in particular. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 23:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Question about volume error in Cite Pacer

    What is the proper way to remove the "volume has extra text" error in {{ Cite Pacer}}? Each instance in Template:Cite Pacer#Examples and Template:Cite Pacer/testcases now has the error. Thanks! GoingBatty ( talk) 23:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Likely that template hasn't worked 'properly' since the decision was taken to render 'vol.' and 'no.' static text for |volume= and |issue= for all cs1|2 templates except {{ cite journal}}. It appears that |case-prefix= is not used in any {{ cite Pacer}} templates so perhaps you might change the template source to remove support for |case-prefix= and change |volume= to |number=?
    Alas, the original author is no longer with us so someone else will have to fix the template.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 00:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Thanks for the suggestion. Looks like Rjjiii is working on it in Template:Cite Pacer/sandbox. GoingBatty ( talk) 01:05, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ GoingBatty: There's another Pacer CS1 template with the same issue, {{ PacerRef}}. It's only used in a single article though. Could Megaupload be switched to {{ Cite Pacer}} or another CS1 template, so that we can delete the extra template? Rjjiii ( talk) 01:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Rjjiii: There's also {{ Cite Pacer Docket}}, used in 8 articles including Megaupload. GoingBatty ( talk) 01:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    I've tinkered with {{ Cite Pacer Docket}} but I'm not sure what combination of parameters the Citation template needs. It doesn't display "number" without "work", but "title" is required and doesn't make sense for any of this template's parameters. Hopefully someone else knows, Rjjiii ( talk) 02:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Rjjiii: I've updated Megaupload to use {{ Cite Pacer}} instead of {{ PacerRef}}. GoingBatty ( talk) 01:38, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    @ Rjjiii ...and added {{ PacerRef}} to Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 March 24. GoingBatty ( talk) 01:44, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Thanks! Just saw it, Rjjiii ( talk) 01:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    How to cite standalone preprint?

    If I want to cite a standalone article preprint, made available by a university through an hdl link, how can I?

    • {{ Cite preprint}} requires one of arxiv=, citeseerx= (why??), bioarxiv=, ssrn=: it wants to be in a known big preprint server (or citeseer), not the case here.
    • {{ Cite book}} sort of works but it is not really a book.
    • {{ Cite tech report}} produces a spurious "(Tech report)" as part of the citation
    • {{ Cite document}} produces a spurious "(Document)" as part of the citation. But maybe this with |type=preprint is best?
    • {{ Cite web}} doesn't work because it requires a url, not an hdl.

    Is there some way to make {{ cite preprint}} less fussy about what kind of availability counts as a preprint? — David Eppstein ( talk) 05:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    {{ cite preprint}} is just a wrapper template around the cs1 templates {{ cite arxiv}}, {{ cite biorxiv}}, {{ cite citeseerx}}, {{ cite medrxiv}}, {{ cite ssrn}}. It is not intended to support arbitrary preprints of any other sort. It has been suggested that the preprint templates should be replaced with a 'generic' {{cite preprint}} template. As I recall there wasn't much enthusiasm for that.
    You can suppress automatic type annotation with |type=none.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 14:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    template:cite journal

    I am citing an article which was published in two journals (one US and the other UK). This is useful information for readers who may have access to one but not the other. I cannot see how to show this. "postscript=" gives an error message and there does not seem to be any other way. Any suggestions? Dudley Miles ( talk) 16:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    You have two sources so use two templates. {{ cite journal}} (and all of the other cs1|2 templates) are designed to support one source at a time.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 16:20, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Citing the same article as two sources will confuse people as it implies that they are different. Standard academic practice is to say "also published...". It is a weakness in the templates that they do not allow for such useful information to be given. Dudley Miles ( talk) 16:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    You are still citing two sources so bibliographic details of the US and UK journals are different. You can write:
    <ref>{{cite journal |author=Author |date= |title= |journal=[the US journal] |volume= |issue= |doi=}}
    *also published in: {{cite journal |author=Author |author-mask=2 |date= |title= |journal=[the UK journal] |volume= |issue= |doi=}}</ref>
    
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 17:13, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Thanks. That should work. Dudley Miles ( talk) 17:16, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    removed support for |authors=; what about |people= and |credits=?

    I have removed support for the deprecated |authors= parameter from the sandbox:

    Cite book comparison
    Wikitext {{cite book|authors=EB Green|title=Title}}
    Live Title. {{ cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= ( help)
    Sandbox Title. {{ cite book}}: Unknown parameter |authors= ignored ( help)

    This leaves us with |people= and |credits= as the only 'free-form' name-list parameters.

    Support for |people= is documented in {{ cite av media}}, {{ cite mailing list}}, {{ cite map}}, {{ citation}}. Search results:

    Using |people=:
    • {{cite av media}} ~7900
    • {{cite mailing list}} none
    • {{cite map}} none
    • {{citation}} ~30
    Using undocumented |credits=:
    • {{cite av media}} none
    • {{cite mailing list}} none
    • {{cite map}} none
    • {{citation}} none

    Support for |credits= is documented in {{ cite episode}} and {{ cite serial}}. Search results:

    Using |credits=:
    • {{cite episode}} ~3300
    • {{cite serial}} ~30
    Using undocumented |people=:

    It seems to me that {{cite mailing list}}, {{cite map}}, and {{citation}} should not be using |people= and |credits=. No doubt there are templates that use |people= and |credits= aside from those mentioned here but similar searches to those above show relatively low usage counts; fewer than 100 articles for {{ cite book}}, {{ cite journal}}, {{ cite news}}, and {{ cite web}} combined. It seems to me that use of these two parameters should be limited to {{cite av media}}, {{cite episode}}, and {{cite serial}}.

    Trappist the monk ( talk) 16:43, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Enable publication-date for {{cite journal}}

    This proposal was originally made 6 days ago but my wording and explanations were poor.

    WikiProject Bibliographies is devoted to standalone bibliography articles. Its participants have been responsible for a respectable portion of the List of bibliographies on this project. While many of these bibliographies were written manually from creation, many use citation templates to speed up the process and achieve a lower error rate. Many of the bibliographies that now use manual citations originated with templates and were only converted out of a need to reduce the post-expand include size. Because the works themselves are the subject of the article and require more detail and precision than in regular citations, we often find ourselves pushing the limits of citation templates.

    For most of the additional information, corresponding parameters have already been added to {{cite book}}, because the average bibliography article consists mostly of books. Most of what remains can be added after the template. But there is one parameter missing from {{cite journal}} despite already being available in CS1 and having been incorporated into {{cite book}}, that is somewhat frequently encountered and which would benefit from being enabled for {{cite journal}} as well: publication-date. For any book Title, dated 2005 but published 2006, originally typewritten 1930, the output of {{cite book}} would be: Last, First (2005) [1930]. Title. Publisher (published 2006). Most books with "two dates" are better served by the orig-date parameter than by publication-date. In the example I just gave, a book may have 2006 on its front cover but 2005 on its inside cover, with 2005 corresponding to the date the printing began and 2006 to the date of publication after the printing ended. Or 2005 could be the date the printing of the first volume began and 2006 the date the individual volume was printed. And so on.

    The main reason both have to be given in bibliography articles is because differences in date and publication-date displayed prominently enough on works for the same work to be cited in one date in catalogue/database but under another date in a different catalogue/database. Only the best catalogues/databases have both parameters, and the reader's library or digital library may not be such a catalogue. Because the primary purpose of a bibliography article is to help the reader find works on a given subject, providing both years in our bibliographies allows the reader to search all year values the catalogue could have, in addition to letting them know that they have indeed found the correct work where providing only one date would leave them second guessing (especially if there are title differences). Differences between prominently displayed "date" (Jahrgang, ročnik, rocznik etc.) and date of publication values are actually more common for periodicals ({{cite journal}}) than for books.

    Despite the parameter arguably being more important for {{cite journal}} than for {{cite book}}, it has still not been enabled for the former. The interval-discrepancy between Jahrgang (date) and publication date (publication-date) often varies over time. Discrepancies of interval often arise between Jahrgang and volume number and even year number,[†] so you cannot simply enter the Jahrgang in the volume parameter. And because these are bibliography articles, in which the works are the subject of the article, orig-date is often unavailable, thanks to a work being written or typed at a different date, sometimes long before publication, resulting in the work often being cited or even catalogued by the date of writing. Here are some examples of periodicals requiring a separate publication-date parameter in order of increasing complexity:

    Year number would be the closest value to Jahrgang but discrepancies arise when a year is skipped and if it happens more than once, the interval changes. Fortunately, the year number is rarely encountered in catalogues and citations, so although it would be preferable to have a separate year-number parameter, the current guidelines for placing the "year-related value" in the volume parameter work well enough. At least the result is within the citation. The publication-date parameter is also within the citation for {{cite book}}, as it should be for {{cite journal}}.

    My request is to enable the publication-date parameter for {{cite journal}}. Ivan ( talk) 21:34, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    |publication-date= is already available in {{ cite journal}}.
    The following
    {{cite journal |title=title |journal=Journal |date=2006 |publication-date=2007 |orig-date=2005}}
    displays as
    "title". Journal (published 2007). 2006 [2005]. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 21:56, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Thank you! I must have been using it incorrectly. Ivan ( talk) 22:19, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Happy editing. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 22:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Also you signature shouldn't hide your actual username (see WP:CUSTOMSIG/P). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 22:06, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    Ideally yes, but I don't want my Cyrillic signature to attract uninvited attention since most of the editors on the articles I usually edit are Croats. Fortunately, this RfC allows for signatures that do not correspond exactly to usernames. Ivan ( talk) 22:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Generic name

    Can you add "phone" and "email" to the generic name list so you get a "CS1 errors: generic name" error. Thanks Keith D ( talk) 18:50, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Language is missing in template

    Langauge is needed on de.wikipedia.org if a German langauge citation is added. Langauge can therefor not be omitted. Theking2 ( talk) 11:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC) reply

    Not so. From de:Vorlage:Internetquelle/Doku: "|sprache=de für „deutsch“ ist nicht erforderlich …" [… for German is not required …]. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 11:57, 27 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    ( edit conflict)
    If one is to believe the wikidata list of wikipedias using Module:Citation/CS1 ( Module:Citation/CS1 (Q15403807)), de.wiki does not support cs1|2. If you are having a problem at de.wiki, you must discuss the problem there.
    Trappist the monk ( talk) 12:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC) reply
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Citation templates
      ... in conception
      ... and in reality

      Refactoring the code for the final rendering

      Hello everyone! While translating the module into Russian, I encountered one issue - some participants do not want to use the CMS or APA style, but prefer styles that correspond to their own language. For Russian, this is GOST.

      I attempted to fix the render [1], but it was very challenging because the entire rendering is scattered throughout the code and sometimes is completely illogical and opaque.

      I believe that since individual languages and language projects have different standards for source representation (different component order, formatting, different sets of data), it would be very helpful to simplify editing this representation in a common module. Having the ability to remove italics and bold, as well as rearrange components, would be beneficial.

      In ruwiki, there are specific templates that I want to transfer to this module, but it's necessary for them to be able to change the render when a certain parameter is entered. For example: citation_style = gost.

      Source {{cite journal |last1=Aries |first1=Myriam B. C. |last2=Newsham |first2=Guy R. |date=2008 |title=Effect of daylight saving time on lighting energy use: a literature review |url=http://archive.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/obj/irc/doc/pubs/nrcc49212/nrcc49212.pdf |journal=Energy Policy |volume=36 |issue=6 |pages=1858–1866 |doi=10.1016/j.enpol.2007.05.021}}
      APA/CMS Aries, Myriam B. C.; Newsham, Guy R. (2008).  "Effect of daylight saving time on lighting energy use: a literature review" (PDF). Energy Policy36 (6): 1858—1866.  doi: 10.1016/j.enpol.2007.05.021.
      GOST Aries Myriam B. C., Newsham Guy R. Effect of daylight saving time on lighting energy use: a literature review [PDF]. // Energy Policy. — 2008. — Vol. 36. — Is. 6. — P. 1858–1866. — doi: 10.1016/j.enpol.2007.05.021.
      DIN Aries, Myriam B. C.; Newsham, Guy R.: " Effect of daylight saving time on lighting energy use: a literature review", Energy Policy, 2008, Vol. 36, Iss. 6, pp. 1858–1866. DOI: 10.1016/j.enpol.2007.05.021.

      Iniquity ( talk) 20:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC) reply

      These templates are not CMS or APA but instead a mix of a few, and include other qualities that differ from either that we have added, so a bit of a false premise there.
      Ignoring that, I have thought a few times about making more of the components of this system into 'libraries' that could be used from other citation styles. Maybe all the subpages can be today? I don't know and am pretty sure not based on some of the opinionated choices CS1 makes (mostly around "missing" information) which I'm pretty sure is in the subpages and not the primary module. If all the subpages were CS1 agnostic, that would get you most of the way there with potentially some duplication in the primary module. Izno ( talk) 16:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Yes, there is a problem that part of the rendering is taken from the main module (for example, italics or boldness), and part from the configuration (for example, prefixes). This makes it very difficult to edit. Iniquity ( talk) 11:14, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Cite book problem where "work" is not allowed

      I'm not sure what was intended. I went to the archived source and it seems to be part of a book. Pearl Milling Company#cite note-BIA-1Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 22:55, 23 February 2024 (UTC) reply

      Looks like a junk citation to me:
      {{cite book|last=Kern-Foxworth|first=Marilyn|title=Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben and Rastus: Blacks in advertising, Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow|publisher=Connecticut and London: Greenwood Press|year=1994|url=http://testaae.greenwood.com/doc_print.aspx?fileID=GR5184&chapterID=GR5184-561&path=books/greenwood|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140424192836/http://testaae.greenwood.com/doc_print.aspx?fileID=GR5184&chapterID=GR5184-561&path=books%2Fgreenwood|archive-date=April 24, 2014|work=Public Relations Review|volume=16 (Fall):59}}
      • template uses {{ cite book}} but seems to be citing something (a review?) in Public Relations Review
      • template links to what appears to be the book publisher: Greenwood Press
      • at the bottom of the archive snapshot of the chapter(?) the publisher provides MLA and CMOS citations; neither mention Public Relations Review though the author does have an article in that journal that is used as a source for the 'cited' article/chapter/whatever. Note that the referenced article is is from the same journal issue as is mentioned in the junk citation:
        —— (Autumn 1990). "Plantation kitchen to American icon: Aunt Jemima". Public Relations Review. 16 (3): 55–67. doi: 10.1016/S0363-8111(05)80069-4.
      Have you discussed this with the editor who created the junk citation? (perhaps this edit at Aunt Jemima?) What is it that they are really trying to cite? A chapter in a book? A book review? A journal article?
      Regardless, the citation is junk so the error message is correct and not the fault of {{cite book}}.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 00:07, 24 February 2024 (UTC) reply
      They've combined two refs that are for different works. One is for a book called "Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben, and Rastus: Blacks in Advertising, Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow" and the other is an article titled "Plantation kitchen to American icon: Aunt Jemima". The article ref was being used to support a quote that is no longer used in either article, so the |work= and |volume= details can just be removed. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 00:55, 24 February 2024 (UTC) reply
      I forgot I had even asked this question. So what should be done with the ref?— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 16:19, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply
      Figure out which of the two sources best supports the en.wiki article text and then adjust the the template accordingly.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 16:35, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply
      So far the source that was linked to seems to support the content but there are six places it is used. "Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben, and Rastus: Blacks in Advertising, Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow" by Marilyn Kern-Foxworth but I can't tell what the publisher or work might be.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 17:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply
      I can't find "rice flour and corn sugar" in the source.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 17:40, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply

      Module access

      Is there a reason why Module:Citation/CS1 does not accept access from modules that pass "frame.args" and insists on requiring "frame:getParent().args" ? Are you open to allowing others to add such an feature ? Snævar ( talk) 14:26, 25 February 2024 (UTC) reply

      In cs1|2, each template {{#invoke}}s Module:Citation/CS1 with at least one parameter needed by the module to identify the calling template: {{ cite book}}, {{ cite journal}}, {{ cite news}}, {{ cite web}}, {{ citation}}, etc. For example, {{ cite book}} has this:
      {{#invoke:citation/CS1|citation
      |CitationClass=book
      }}
      
      |CitationClass= is passed to the module in the frame object. To get the parameters from this {{cite book}}:
      {{cite book |title=Title |date=2024 |publisher=Publisher}}
      the module must consult the parent frame object.
      This was how the module has worked more-or-less from its inception. The primary and overriding purpose of the module is to support the cs1|2 templates. To the best of my knowledge, no one has proposed expanding that purpose to other modules. Why do you want to do it?
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 15:28, 25 February 2024 (UTC) reply
      It is quite common for modules to have access for other modules, both here on the English Wikipedia and on other sites like Wikimedia Commons. Citation/CS1 is going against the wind on this one. One module, or a set of them in this case, does not set the norms, the majority of the modules do. As for usecases, they are allready here, there are a lot of modules and templates due to this module access not being in place. These modules and templates are: Module:Cite arXiv, Module:Cite bioRxiv, Module:Cite book, Module:Cite conference, Module:Cite document, Module:Cite encyclopedia, Module:Cite episode, Module:Cite interview, Module:Cite journal, Module:Cite magazine, Module:Cite mailing list, Module:Cite map, Module:Cite medRxiv, Module:Cite news, Module:Cite newsgroup, Module:Cite podcast, Module:Cite press release, Module:Cite report, Module:Cite serial, Module:Cite sign, Module:Cite speech, Module:Cite tech report, Module:Cite thesis and Module:Cite web. As for the templates it is a bunch of substitution templates with similar names, although I do know the reason for their existance is a bit different and unlike the modules might be justified. I am not trying to offend anyone by saying this, but this list of modules feels like an garbage dump. The only difference between these modules is the CitationClass and what title they return.
      @ User:Pppery: I think you are going to like this. Is it not worth getting rid of 24 nearly identical modules, by merging them into one? Snævar ( talk) 05:10, 1 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      "The only difference between these modules is the CitationClass and what title they return." There's a lot more differences than class and 'title', whatever you mean by that. The different modules accept different parameters, and format them differently. {{ cite arxiv}} for instance, does not support |journal/volume/issue/isbn= etc... Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 20:31, 16 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Inconsistent handling of ref=sfnref on desktop v mobile

      If a citation uses a quoted name in sfnref (e.g., |ref={{sfnref|"Technical Report"|2021}}, it works fine and looks fine in desktop view. But viewed on mobile, it generates a harv error: the citations see no target source and the source sees no incoming citations. For a real world example, see https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=East_West_Rail&oldid=1210714109 . Removing the quotes fixes the problem. (In case it matters, "mobile" means Android+Chrome, "desktop" means ChromeBook+Chrome.)

      Presumably this needs reporting somewhere, but where? 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 11:00, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply

      That's bizarre. For convenience, here's a link that shows the offending behaviour via "Mobile view" on a desktop. I notice however, that the click-function 'References -> Sources' works as expected. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 13:03, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply
      I don't see any error on desktop or mobile, but I'm only using the basic error messages rather than using a acript. This could be an issue with script your using, I suggest reporting the error at User talk:Trappist the monk/HarvErrors. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 14:40, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply
      ( edit conflict)
      Unlikely that this a cs1|2 or Module:Footnotes issue because neither distinguish mobile view from desktop view. I suspect that this is the same problem described at phab:T348928 where MediaWiki is incorrectly url-encoding the short-form link when it should be anchor-encoding the link:
      {{urlencode:CITEREF"Technical Report"2021}} → CITEREF%22Technical+Report%222021
      {{anchorencode:CITEREF"Technical Report"2021}} → CITEREF"Technical_Report"2021
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 14:45, 28 February 2024 (UTC) reply

      PMID limit increase

      Please see the page 2024 in arthropod paleontology - the PMID limit should be increase, as it gives false positives on PMID values that are over 38400000, such as 38401545. Maxim Masiutin ( talk) 23:54, 29 February 2024 (UTC) reply

      Edition ordinals

      This is a repeat of a proposal that has been made twice before:

      I quote Matthiaspaul:

      This would help to further decouple semantics (which edition?) from presentation (f.e. "3rd ed."). It would not only make it easier to add common edition information, but also improve readability, maintainability and translatability, and it would allow to centrally change the rendering in the future, would this become necessary ("3rd ed.", "third ed.", "third edition" etc.), depending on the output device (f.e., display the abbreviated form "3rd ed." on the small display of a mobile device, but "third edition" on a desktop or printout), or target language (e.g. "third edition", "dritte Ausgabe", etc.).

      Jc3s5h suggests that sometimes, particularly for software, there is a "3 edition" which is distinct from a "3rd edition". As a native English speaker I don't perceive a difference between "3rd edition" or "edition 3". They are essentially interchangeable. "3 edition" is just wrong. If the edition name is "3", then it should be displayed as "3rd ed.".

      Trappist the monk raised concerns about "other languages where the cs1|2 module suite is used". While I want to respect the challenge of maintainability of the CS1 suite across Wikipedia sites in various languages, and am wholly unaware of the systems in place for this, I don't think this needs to hold us back here. Changing this could be as simple as adding the following to Template:Cite book when it invokes the module, without even modifying the module to be English-specific.

      {{Ifnumber|{{{edition|}}}|{{Ordinal|{{{edition}}}}}|{{{edition|}}}}}
      

      I find Matthiaspaul's description of the benefits to be compelling, and don't understand the downsides to this feature. Daask ( talk) 21:33, 1 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      I don't know the context of the line of code provided by Daask, or what programming language it is in. But if "Ifnumber" does what I think it does it would be unacceptable. Here is an example of a citation that would be a problem:
      Cite book comparison
      Wikitext {{cite book|date=2010|edition=2011|isbn=978 1 11 154223 8|location=Quincy, MA|publisher=National Fire Protection Association|title=NFPA 70: National Electrical code}}
      Live NFPA 70: National Electrical code (2011 ed.). Quincy, MA: National Fire Protection Association. 2010. ISBN  978 1 11 154223 8.
      Jc3s5h ( talk) 22:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      The proposed (pseudo?)code does not reflect the discussion. As far as I can tell from reading the linked discussion, that citation would not be affected, since the edition number is greater than 99. – Jonesey95 ( talk) 20:49, 2 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Was helping a user with Draft:Halkalı-Bahçeşehir Rail System and noticed that the bot didn't exactly subst the template properly. Is this an issue with the wrapper or with the original placement of the template? Primefac ( talk) 13:53, 2 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Oneida is missing from the recognized languages

      Oneida has the ISO 639-3 code one. [1] Can this be added so Oneida sources no longer show up under Category:CS1_maint:unrecognized language?

      References

      Snowman304| talk 05:22, 7 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Not recognized by MediaWiki:
      one ← {{#language:one|en}}
      so you'll have to spell it out: |language=Oneida.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 13:04, 7 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Hi Trappist, thanks for the quick response. I'm looking at Morris Swadesh, and I can't figure out what the unrecognized language would be except for Oneida, which is spelled out. Snowman304| talk 19:22, 7 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      That's the one (pun not really intended). cs1|2 emits the maintenance message because Oneida is not a language name recognized by MediaWiki. The whole list of MediaWiki-recognized languages and their tags is at Template:Citation Style documentation/language/doc.
      See Help:CS1 errors § Controlling error message display to show the cs1|2 maintenance messages.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 20:18, 7 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      OCLC limit hit

      See for example OCLC  10146270069, which exceeds the current limit of 10100000000. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 01:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Same for PMC limits, which now exceed 10900000. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 02:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Nonsensical error when title=none is set

      The following gives a "CS1 maint: untitled periodical" maintenance message, but clearly the periodical is named here.

      Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 02:12, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      The warning message is unfortunately worded. What it should say is "article title missing in periodical" or something similar. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 02:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Which would also be an error, because the title is willingly bypassed. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 04:41, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      S2CID still needs an update

      Looks like someone last mentioned this a few months ago. The S2CID limit is still too low. For example, /info/en/?search=Pry_(novel) has a working article with an ID of 268071715. Can we maybe bump it up to 269000000 (or 270000000, if we're feeling cheeky)? Snowman304| talk 07:27, 11 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      url-status when archive-url is also dead

      When you set url-status to "dead", it signals to use the archive-url by default. But what do you do when the archive-url is also dead, and you can't immediately find a working archive? Mokadoshi ( talk) 12:49, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      The best solution would be to find a new source, but otherwise I would suggest removing the archive parameters (|archive-url=, |archive-date= and |url-status=), and adding {{ dead link}} with the |fix-attempted=yes parameter after the cite. Defunct archive URLs are pretty worthless. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 15:51, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      • You'd also need to update iabot.org otherwise IABot will likely re-add the non-working archive URL. -- Green C 16:12, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply
        Are you sure that IABot would do this on a link that is marked permanently dead? And if so, how exactly do I make this fix? Mokadoshi ( talk) 16:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      I agree. Thanks! Mokadoshi ( talk) 16:18, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      extended definitions for Latn character set

      This template fails because the character 'ạ' (U+1EA1 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH DOT BELOW) is not recognized by the Vancouver tests (Vancouver allows only Latin characters):

      Cite book comparison
      Wikitext {{cite book|first=Lê Cao|last=Đại|name-list-style=vanc|publisher=Vietnam Red Cross Society|title=Agent Orange in the Vietnam War: History and Consequences|year=2000}}
      Live Đại LC (2000). Agent Orange in the Vietnam War: History and Consequences. Vietnam Red Cross Society.
      Sandbox Đại LC (2000). Agent Orange in the Vietnam War: History and Consequences. Vietnam Red Cross Society.

      The fix supports characters from Latin Extended Additional (U+1E00–U+1EFF).

      Trappist the monk ( talk) 23:26, 13 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      module suite update 23–24 March 2024

      I propose to update cs1|2 module suite over the weekend 23–24 March 2024. Here are the changes:

      Module:Citation/CS1

      • removed temporary Julian–Gregorian uncertainty categorization; discussion
      • combine extra-text tests for |volume= and |issue=; discussion
      • fix bug related to hyphenated given names when reducing to initials for vancouver style; discussion
      • add |script-encyclopedia= and |trans-encyclopedia=; discussion
      • allow |mode=cs1 and |postscript=none in {{ citation}}; discussion
      • fix long-term-sleeping bibcode/postscript interaction bug; discussion
      • fix archive.today timestamp check; discussion
      • cleanup tcommon assignments; discussion
      • extend latn char definition; discussion

      Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration

      • add doi free registrants: 1045 - D-Lib Magazine; 1074 and 1194 - American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology; 1096 - FASEB; 4249 - Scholarpedia; 5210 - University of Illinois Libraries; 7759 - Cureus; 14256 - Croatian Association of Civil Engineers; 15347 - Wikijournals; 22323 - SISSA
      • removed temporary Julian–Gregorian uncertainty categorization
      • combine extra-text tests for |volume= and |issue=
      • add |script-encyclopedia= and |trans-encyclopedia=
      • use tabular data file at commons for identifier limit values; discussion
      • removed doi free registrant 3410 - F1000; discussion
      • extend latn char definition;

      Module:Citation/CS1/Whitelist

      • add |script-encyclopedia= and |trans-encyclopedia=

      Module:Citation/CS1/Date validation

      • removed temporary Julian–Gregorian uncertainty categorization

      Module:Citation/CS1/styles.css

      Trappist the monk ( talk) 14:27, 16 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      I've specified that 3410 is F1000 for future discussion. It's still a free registrant, it's just doing some fuckery with its access pages. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 20:06, 16 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Re: Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 93#Limits: the way to incorporate this into Wikidata for each identifier would be to use property constraint (P2302) > range constraint (Q21510860) > maximum value (P2312) & minimum value (P2313), per d:Help:Property constraints portal/Range#Example 1. Regarding fragility & vandalism, I think using Wikidata would be superior to c:Data:CS1/Identifier limits.tab, if only for the # of people already watching, for example, OCLC control number (P243), etc.   ~  Tom.Reding ( talkdgaf)  11:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Thanks for that. If I understand (not saying that I do), OCLC control number (P243) would get a new constraint as a Qid to be used on only seven identifier properties. The new Qid might be something like 'cs1 limit constraint'. Each of the seven identifier properties would get the new Qid constraint with a maximum value (P2312) constraint property. That would require us to go on bended knee to the Masters of Wikidata to plead for the new Qid. Pleading for a new Qid is the 'politics' to which I referred in the original discussion; politics that I would prefer to avoid. Tabular data at commons doesn't require a plea to the Masters of Commons; it is one file and it works.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 16:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      No new Qid and no pleading required! I can add all the appropriate min/max constraints to Wikidata. I just need to know the minimum values allowed for all of the identifiers @ c:Data:CS1/Identifier limits.tab.   ~  Tom.Reding ( talkdgaf)  00:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      I've added the appropriate maximum value (P2312) to OCLC control number (P243), OSTI article ID (P3894), PMCID (P932), PubMed ID (P698), RfC ID (P892), SSRN article ID (P893), & Semantic Scholar paper ID (P4011), effectively duplicating c:Data:CS1/Identifier limits.tab in Wikidata.   ~  Tom.Reding ( talkdgaf)  17:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      I don't think that was a wise thing to do. I don't think that we should apply a constraint that isn't qualified to be a cs1|2-only constraint. What you have done, I think, is apply the cs1|2-only limits as constraints for any use of those identifier properties. That is why I said that I think to use wikidata we must have a cs1|2 Qid and to do that we must petition the Masters of Wikidata on bended knee.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 17:59, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      What you have done, I think, is apply the cs1|2-only limits as constraints for any use of those identifier properties. - correct. I don't see why OOB values should exist on Wikidata (unless that limit has yet to be updated after a recent bump). If there are no legitimate uses for OOB values, then I don't see why those limits shouldn't be in Wikidata, regardless of whether or not cs1|2 uses them. If there are legitimate reasons, either I or someone else will remove them.   ~  Tom.Reding ( talkdgaf)  18:13, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      I'm still not convinced but that may be a moot point. Unless I'm missing something, Wikibase does not provide a mechanism for getting a property of a property that isn't part of an entity (Qid). See Wikibase Lua doc. Yeah, if you know the title of the work and it matches the label used in Wikidata, you can get a Qid (mw.wikibase.getEntityIdForTitle ('The Decameron')Q16438 but the name in Italian: mw.wikibase.getEntityIdForTitle ('Il Decamerone')nil). We must always be able to get to the identifier limits; we can do that easily with commons tabular data.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 23:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      @ Izno: Whatever it is that you did to Module:Citation/CS1/sandbox/styles.css has broken the css for minerva (icons too big), monobook (icons clipped), and timeless (icons too big) skins. See these testcases at my sandbox (permalink):
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 17:15, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Yes, I know. I'm not done. Izno ( talk) 17:16, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Sorted. Izno ( talk) 17:21, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Ummm, really? Minerva, monobook, and timeless still looked borked to me.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 17:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Your revisions are stuck in parser cache. Review my user page instead in the various skins. Izno ( talk) 18:12, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Just for ease:
      Izno ( talk) 18:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Yep.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 23:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Best practice for when to use "n.d." vs. leaving blank

      The documentation for CS1 currently includes When a source does not have a publication date, use |date=n.d.. However, for citations of things like web pages that don't have a date, I find it much more common to just leave out the date parameter rather than specifying that it has been omitted.

      I'm curious to hear from others, what do you think the best practice should be for this? Sdkb talk 21:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      (I see in the archives that there has also been discussion about possibly using "undated" instead of "n.d." or adding a tooltip. If folks want to pick that up, please open a subthread so that we can keep everything organized. Cheers, Sdkb talk 21:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)) reply
      Blank is definitely common, but blank can mean, "there was a date, but I didn't fill it in" or "it is undated". An "n.d." clarifies, so is better. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 23:19, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      I've seen |date=<!--no date-->, which at least clarifies it for editors. Sdkb talk 23:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      I guess the thing that makes me uncomfortable about it is that we don't call out the absence of any other element in CS1 citations that I know of. If there's no DOI, or issue number, or second author, we don't designate that, but rather just leave the space blank. I'm open to being persuaded, but my intuition is that it'd be most consistent to adopt the same stance here (or at least to specify something like that "n.d." should only be used in situations where readers might normally expect there to be a date). Sdkb talk 23:48, 17 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      In principle, everything that is published is published on some date (except maybe something like search results that are generated on a certain date, but if we're talking that, the access date is identical), but virtually any other field is something that could not be there (not URI for a web page, of course). ― Justin (koavf)TCM 00:01, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      @ Indagate: Please undo your edit to the template and participate here. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 13:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Didn't see this before reverting you there, seems best to leave the status quo for now until consensus is established for its inclusion. It's far from standard practice for web pages without a date to include n.d., pages are updated without any date being updated so the access-date in WP articles should be the latest date the information was updated if updated properly by editors. Including n.d. doesn't give readers any more information so seems redundant. Indagate ( talk) 14:22, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Did you see the instructions at Template:Cite web? There is nothing redundant here. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 14:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Yes, I read the parts about date there, but don't think I've seen any cite web using date=n.d. for websites without a date like Rotten Tomatoes so it doesn't reflect standard practice so doesn't seem to have consensus already Indagate ( talk) 14:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      There are a lot of rules that are broken or ignored: that doesn't justify breaking or ignoring them further. If there is some reason why we should not use "n.d.", then that should be incorporated into the template instructions. ― Justin (koavf)TCM 15:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      When there is a conflict between what the rules appear to say and what general practice is, as here, it's reasonable to keep the status quo while we work to resolve the underlying issue and figure out what guidance should say. This discussion is for figuring that out; let's stay focused on that. Sdkb talk 15:42, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Don't forget that {{ sfnp}} and related need something in the date field, even if it is means having to use {{sfnp|Doe|n.d.|page=123}}. The notation n.d. is reasonably well recognised and I don't know of any other conventions that are. But I guess it can be left to whoever is pulling together multiple citations of the same source to backfill it. -- 𝕁𝕄𝔽 ( talk) 17:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Category:CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI

      This one. What is the purpose of this category? Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 17:14, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Does the documentation at Category:CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI not answer your question?
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 17:17, 18 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Only the technical purpose, not why there is a maintenance category instead of automatically flagging all free DOIs. Jo-Jo Eumerus ( talk) 10:49, 19 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      The implementing discussion is at Help talk:Citation Style 1/Archive 90 § Recognize free DOI prefixes.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 14:04, 19 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Add publication-date parameter to {{cite journal}}

      The {{cite book}} template already implements a separate publication-date parameter from CS1. Some journals and their articles have different publication-date, date and orig-date values. The latter is more flexible, but insufficient when there are three different dates, i.e. an article "orig-date=written 1930", published in a journal edition dated "date=2004-2005" and published "publication-date=2006". Ivan ( talk) 18:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Then the date is 2004-2005. The others are irrelevant. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 07:47, 21 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      In the case I have given, sources referencing it casually (i.e. without citation) will sometimes reference it with "1930", others with "2005", others with "2006", and if it was published in an issue of a periodical in 2004 whose contents were later published together with all other issues in 2006, then one will also encounter "2004". All for the same article.
      For citations, it might not matter much. But for bibliography articles, precision helps the reader avoid confusion. I am not a template editor. How would one go about incorporating the parameter for {{cite journal}}? This is the correct page to ask? Ivan ( talk) 17:55, 21 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Cite what you read. If you read an article in a periodical that was published in 2004, the date is 2004. If you were told that the article was republished in a set of bound things that contained all the articles the journal ever published, and that set was published in 2006, you don't care, you didn't read it. If I obtain the set of bound things and read the article, I'll put a publication date of 2006 in my citation. I could also add a parameter orig-date=2004. Jc3s5h ( talk) 01:58, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Cite what you read. Pardon my confusing wording above, but the need does not stem from the requirements of references but of bibliographies, where the works in question are the subject of the article. Some citation styles prefer the date of printing/publication (i.e. 1931), while others prefer the year published for (i.e. 1929/1930). It is not for the bibliographer to decide which must be used, and including both can help resolve confusion from the reader over which date to use given the style required of them. Posthumously published works excepted, most citation styles do not take the date of writing or reception into account, which would free up the orig-date parameter for the publication date, but in bibliographies that parameter is still needed to provide useful information to the reader; for example that the discrepancy between the publication date and that of a familiar author's death is due to posthumous publication. Ivan ( talk) 03:02, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      There's no different requirement in biographies. Something written in 1923 but published in 2012 has a date of 2012. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 03:08, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      I am not referring to bibliography sections at the end of articles, but to annotated bibliography articles. The purpose is different. Something published 2012 but with a year number 2010/2011 can have a date of 2012, 2011, or even 2010 in the case I referred to in the second paragraph of this section, all depending on the citation style required in the context. But more scientific bibliography articles do not make the choice for the reader. And the only reason I mentioned date of writing is to show you why we cannot always simply add =published to the orig-date parameter.
      One of a dedicated bibliography article's purposes is to help the reader find the source detailed therein regardless of the system used in their library's catalogue, or any parametric restrictions imposed by said catalogue, or whichever means they end up using to find it. And to make them aware of any republications, English translations, and so on. I mentioned annotated bibliographies to give you an idea of how extensive the citations in those bibliographies can be on Wikipedia, just in case you are unaware of their existence on the project. Ivan ( talk) 03:30, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      It sounds like this article is a rare case that needs additional annotations outside of the citation template. Citation templates are not intended to handle all possible edge cases. – Jonesey95 ( talk) 13:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Actually, bibliography articles are a well-established genre on Wikipedia, and use citation templates quite frequently. Sometimes the bibliographies grow too long and the citations have to be converted to manual format to reduce the post-expand include size. Some editors don't use templates as a matter of preference. But for organising longer lists, which are often in a particular order, templates offer the freedom to place the parameter of organisation first, reducing the rate of misplaced items, and greatly speeding up the overall process.
      I am realising the opposition might stem from simply being unaware these articles exist, like Bibliography of fly fishing or List of important publications in geology, or Bibliography of encyclopedias. The latter is now mostly manual for size reasons, but it began with templates and would have been riddled with mistakes without them. It is only a minority of journals that require it, but I have already incorporatated hundreds of journal articles that have separate date and publication-date values in my to-be-published Wikipedia bibliographies, and my request is simply to enable a parameter already in use for {{cite book}}.
      Citation templates are not intended to handle all possible edge cases. Although such journals are in the minority, it is still very commonly encountered. Very. Other editors have managed to get by with manual additions thanks to the publisher parameter coming last in Citation Style 1, but that doesn't work as well when there are many entries. Nor does it fit as nicely as when it is an in-template parameter. Compare with the output of {{cite book}}: Last, First (2004–2005) [written 1930]. Title. Publisher (published 2006).{{ cite book}}: CS1 maint: date format ( link)
      I have no problem including most annotations outside the template. That is standard practice for editions, translations, reviews, et cetera. But publication-date ought to match {{cite book}} in style. It may not be important for books either, outside of bibliography articles. But most bibliographies on this encyclopedia were mostly books. Today there are many bibliography articles consisting partly or entirely of journal articles. It is time to make the {{cite journal}} template equally capable. Ivan ( talk) 18:58, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      If it was written in 1930, and was published in 2006, then the 2004-2005 date makes no sense. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 03:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      The 2004-2005 date is the "year date" (Jahrgang, ročnik, rocznik etc.). Not to be confused with "year number", which is distinct from volume number but the volume parameter will suffice in that case. Typically on the cover pages, marking the period during which works were submitted and/or originally published within issues that make up a volume. It is not uncommon for the year number to span multiple years, especially because of the school year. You can often get away with citing the year number under the |volume= or |issue= parameter in citations, but this is not appropriate for bibliographies, as these publications often have separate volume and issue numbers in addition to the year number, publication date, etc. The relationship between year number and volume number is often not 1:1, because most publications at least in my part of the world have been interrupted at some point, resulting in a year:volume mismatch. Here are some examples in order of increasing complexity:
      All three journals in the examples above went through changes in their publication cycle that prevents 1:1 conversion based on year or volume number, and even if the relationship was constant, these periodicals are catalogued differently from institution to institution. Some catalogues separate year date from publication date. But even advanced search options are usually limited to whichever of the various dates were selected by the institution. This is why it is so important that a bibliography include both. Ivan ( talk) 07:04, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Why is archive-date required when archive-url has the date?

      Maybe a stupid question, but why is |archive-date required and then checked for matching |archive-url even when the latter already contains the date, like archive.org urls normally do? Wouldn't it make sense to forgo the separate date and just take the one from the url? Or, if it's expected by some processing somewhere else, at least automatically populate the date upon submission instead of rising an error? Since subst exists, this can't be because there's a policy against modifying the user-submitted wikitext. 82.131.19.61 ( talk) 14:02, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      There may be archiving sites that format their URLs differently to archive.org. Certainly other archive organisations have been used in the past. Nigel Ish ( talk) 16:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Well, I think what I said would also apply to any other widely used archive that has timestamps included in its urls. With all of them, the date could be taken from the url. I'm not sure if the date is actually checked with any others besides archive.org, but it's this "we must check the date against the url if entered, but we won't populate the date from the url" one-way logic that I don't quite get. I seems like inconveniencing the user for no good reason (that I can think of). If the data is available, why error out and nag? EDIT: I mean this is not a sanity check, it's a check for an exact match. 82.131.19.61 ( talk) 16:55, 22 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      news and web should allow Network and Station

      I tried to cite a clip from PBS NewsHour on the Orca page.

      I suppose PBS is the "Publisher" and the "work" is NewsHour, but that felt awkward and there is a more specific form for audio-visual sources.

      Unfortunately, the Serial citation suggests it should not be used for news shows. /info/en/?search=Template:Cite_serial says it is "for broadcast programs (television, radio, web) which use individual titles for a collection of episodes ... For serial publications, see {{ Cite news}} and {{ Cite journal}}."

      Unfortunately, making it a news citation caused the system to reject the network property. I assume it would also reject station, which might be essential for local news.

      My preference would be that the news and especially the web citation forms allow the additional Serial properties.

      My second choice -- which might be good even if the news and web citation forms are expanded -- would be that the instructions for Serial remove the word "individual" (when skimming, I thought it meant each episode had its own name, as some Sitcoms do), and change "For serial publications" to "For _written_ serial publications." JimJJewett ( talk) 19:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      It turns out the instructions are not protected, so I already made the 2nd set of changes, unless someone reverts it.
      I still think that the news citation form should also cater to broadcast news, and the web form should cater to everything, including broadcast clips re-published on youtube. JimJJewett ( talk) 19:46, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Is everything okay with COinS?

      Hi! When transferring the module to ruwiki, I decided to see how COinS generally live. The official website is dead [2], there is practically no documentation to be found. OpenURL is dead too [3]. The applications that use it also died, except for Zotero. Shouldn't we think about switching to a new format before everything becomes completely outdated? Or am I worrying in vain and everything is fine? Iniquity ( talk) 20:37, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      The only COinS documentation I have found is listed at Module talk:Citation/CS1/COinS. Another editor added Dublin Core and SVC (Scholarly Community Service Types?); neither of which are meaningful and should probably be deleted from that page. No doubt some of those documentation links are dead so archive snapshots should be located if possible.
      I don't know of any other metadata standard that could be used as a drop-in replacement for COinS.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 21:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      I don't know of any other metadata standard that could be used as a drop-in replacement for COinS.
      —  User:Trappist the monk 21:53, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

      Yes, I didn't find much either. Maybe this one - https://schema.org/Book (RDF/Microdata)? Iniquity ( talk) 22:05, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      I guess I'm not convinced. Those schema appear to be intended as a way for publishers to provide a structured description of an online source – a purpose different from a citation. One of the very common things that editors do is cite particular pages from a book, often without reference to a chapter. Pagination does not appear to be a supported property for a book – it is for the chapter schema. A quicksearch didn't reveal how one might encoded a journal article – I didn't find a property for the journal name.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      I asked a question on the Zotero forum, maybe they can help. I'll be back as soon as I have an answer. Iniquity ( talk) 23:47, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Question about volume parameter that contains New Series

      What is the proper way to cite a journal that has a volume parameter with "New Series" or "N.S."? For example, in Origin of the Huns:

      • {{cite journal |last=de la Vaissière |first=Étienne |title=Is There a "Nationality of the Hephtalites"? |journal=Bulletin of the Asia Institute |volume=N.S. 17 |year=2003 |pages=119–132 |jstor=24049310}}
      • de la Vaissière, Étienne (2003). "Is There a "Nationality of the Hephtalites"?". Bulletin of the Asia Institute. N.S. 17: 119–132. JSTOR  24049310. {{ cite journal}}: |volume= has extra text ( help)

      Thanks! GoingBatty ( talk) 23:21, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      |volume=17 + |series=New Series Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 23:28, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      See Help:Citation_Style_1#Edition_identifiers and note 3 in particular. Headbomb { t · c · p · b} 23:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Question about volume error in Cite Pacer

      What is the proper way to remove the "volume has extra text" error in {{ Cite Pacer}}? Each instance in Template:Cite Pacer#Examples and Template:Cite Pacer/testcases now has the error. Thanks! GoingBatty ( talk) 23:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Likely that template hasn't worked 'properly' since the decision was taken to render 'vol.' and 'no.' static text for |volume= and |issue= for all cs1|2 templates except {{ cite journal}}. It appears that |case-prefix= is not used in any {{ cite Pacer}} templates so perhaps you might change the template source to remove support for |case-prefix= and change |volume= to |number=?
      Alas, the original author is no longer with us so someone else will have to fix the template.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 00:41, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Thanks for the suggestion. Looks like Rjjiii is working on it in Template:Cite Pacer/sandbox. GoingBatty ( talk) 01:05, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      @ GoingBatty: There's another Pacer CS1 template with the same issue, {{ PacerRef}}. It's only used in a single article though. Could Megaupload be switched to {{ Cite Pacer}} or another CS1 template, so that we can delete the extra template? Rjjiii ( talk) 01:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      @ Rjjiii: There's also {{ Cite Pacer Docket}}, used in 8 articles including Megaupload. GoingBatty ( talk) 01:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      I've tinkered with {{ Cite Pacer Docket}} but I'm not sure what combination of parameters the Citation template needs. It doesn't display "number" without "work", but "title" is required and doesn't make sense for any of this template's parameters. Hopefully someone else knows, Rjjiii ( talk) 02:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      @ Rjjiii: I've updated Megaupload to use {{ Cite Pacer}} instead of {{ PacerRef}}. GoingBatty ( talk) 01:38, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      @ Rjjiii ...and added {{ PacerRef}} to Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 March 24. GoingBatty ( talk) 01:44, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Thanks! Just saw it, Rjjiii ( talk) 01:49, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      How to cite standalone preprint?

      If I want to cite a standalone article preprint, made available by a university through an hdl link, how can I?

      • {{ Cite preprint}} requires one of arxiv=, citeseerx= (why??), bioarxiv=, ssrn=: it wants to be in a known big preprint server (or citeseer), not the case here.
      • {{ Cite book}} sort of works but it is not really a book.
      • {{ Cite tech report}} produces a spurious "(Tech report)" as part of the citation
      • {{ Cite document}} produces a spurious "(Document)" as part of the citation. But maybe this with |type=preprint is best?
      • {{ Cite web}} doesn't work because it requires a url, not an hdl.

      Is there some way to make {{ cite preprint}} less fussy about what kind of availability counts as a preprint? — David Eppstein ( talk) 05:20, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      {{ cite preprint}} is just a wrapper template around the cs1 templates {{ cite arxiv}}, {{ cite biorxiv}}, {{ cite citeseerx}}, {{ cite medrxiv}}, {{ cite ssrn}}. It is not intended to support arbitrary preprints of any other sort. It has been suggested that the preprint templates should be replaced with a 'generic' {{cite preprint}} template. As I recall there wasn't much enthusiasm for that.
      You can suppress automatic type annotation with |type=none.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 14:23, 24 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      template:cite journal

      I am citing an article which was published in two journals (one US and the other UK). This is useful information for readers who may have access to one but not the other. I cannot see how to show this. "postscript=" gives an error message and there does not seem to be any other way. Any suggestions? Dudley Miles ( talk) 16:10, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      You have two sources so use two templates. {{ cite journal}} (and all of the other cs1|2 templates) are designed to support one source at a time.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 16:20, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Citing the same article as two sources will confuse people as it implies that they are different. Standard academic practice is to say "also published...". It is a weakness in the templates that they do not allow for such useful information to be given. Dudley Miles ( talk) 16:53, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      You are still citing two sources so bibliographic details of the US and UK journals are different. You can write:
      <ref>{{cite journal |author=Author |date= |title= |journal=[the US journal] |volume= |issue= |doi=}}
      *also published in: {{cite journal |author=Author |author-mask=2 |date= |title= |journal=[the UK journal] |volume= |issue= |doi=}}</ref>
      
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 17:13, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Thanks. That should work. Dudley Miles ( talk) 17:16, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      removed support for |authors=; what about |people= and |credits=?

      I have removed support for the deprecated |authors= parameter from the sandbox:

      Cite book comparison
      Wikitext {{cite book|authors=EB Green|title=Title}}
      Live Title. {{ cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= ( help)
      Sandbox Title. {{ cite book}}: Unknown parameter |authors= ignored ( help)

      This leaves us with |people= and |credits= as the only 'free-form' name-list parameters.

      Support for |people= is documented in {{ cite av media}}, {{ cite mailing list}}, {{ cite map}}, {{ citation}}. Search results:

      Using |people=:
      • {{cite av media}} ~7900
      • {{cite mailing list}} none
      • {{cite map}} none
      • {{citation}} ~30
      Using undocumented |credits=:
      • {{cite av media}} none
      • {{cite mailing list}} none
      • {{cite map}} none
      • {{citation}} none

      Support for |credits= is documented in {{ cite episode}} and {{ cite serial}}. Search results:

      Using |credits=:
      • {{cite episode}} ~3300
      • {{cite serial}} ~30
      Using undocumented |people=:

      It seems to me that {{cite mailing list}}, {{cite map}}, and {{citation}} should not be using |people= and |credits=. No doubt there are templates that use |people= and |credits= aside from those mentioned here but similar searches to those above show relatively low usage counts; fewer than 100 articles for {{ cite book}}, {{ cite journal}}, {{ cite news}}, and {{ cite web}} combined. It seems to me that use of these two parameters should be limited to {{cite av media}}, {{cite episode}}, and {{cite serial}}.

      Trappist the monk ( talk) 16:43, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Enable publication-date for {{cite journal}}

      This proposal was originally made 6 days ago but my wording and explanations were poor.

      WikiProject Bibliographies is devoted to standalone bibliography articles. Its participants have been responsible for a respectable portion of the List of bibliographies on this project. While many of these bibliographies were written manually from creation, many use citation templates to speed up the process and achieve a lower error rate. Many of the bibliographies that now use manual citations originated with templates and were only converted out of a need to reduce the post-expand include size. Because the works themselves are the subject of the article and require more detail and precision than in regular citations, we often find ourselves pushing the limits of citation templates.

      For most of the additional information, corresponding parameters have already been added to {{cite book}}, because the average bibliography article consists mostly of books. Most of what remains can be added after the template. But there is one parameter missing from {{cite journal}} despite already being available in CS1 and having been incorporated into {{cite book}}, that is somewhat frequently encountered and which would benefit from being enabled for {{cite journal}} as well: publication-date. For any book Title, dated 2005 but published 2006, originally typewritten 1930, the output of {{cite book}} would be: Last, First (2005) [1930]. Title. Publisher (published 2006). Most books with "two dates" are better served by the orig-date parameter than by publication-date. In the example I just gave, a book may have 2006 on its front cover but 2005 on its inside cover, with 2005 corresponding to the date the printing began and 2006 to the date of publication after the printing ended. Or 2005 could be the date the printing of the first volume began and 2006 the date the individual volume was printed. And so on.

      The main reason both have to be given in bibliography articles is because differences in date and publication-date displayed prominently enough on works for the same work to be cited in one date in catalogue/database but under another date in a different catalogue/database. Only the best catalogues/databases have both parameters, and the reader's library or digital library may not be such a catalogue. Because the primary purpose of a bibliography article is to help the reader find works on a given subject, providing both years in our bibliographies allows the reader to search all year values the catalogue could have, in addition to letting them know that they have indeed found the correct work where providing only one date would leave them second guessing (especially if there are title differences). Differences between prominently displayed "date" (Jahrgang, ročnik, rocznik etc.) and date of publication values are actually more common for periodicals ({{cite journal}}) than for books.

      Despite the parameter arguably being more important for {{cite journal}} than for {{cite book}}, it has still not been enabled for the former. The interval-discrepancy between Jahrgang (date) and publication date (publication-date) often varies over time. Discrepancies of interval often arise between Jahrgang and volume number and even year number,[†] so you cannot simply enter the Jahrgang in the volume parameter. And because these are bibliography articles, in which the works are the subject of the article, orig-date is often unavailable, thanks to a work being written or typed at a different date, sometimes long before publication, resulting in the work often being cited or even catalogued by the date of writing. Here are some examples of periodicals requiring a separate publication-date parameter in order of increasing complexity:

      Year number would be the closest value to Jahrgang but discrepancies arise when a year is skipped and if it happens more than once, the interval changes. Fortunately, the year number is rarely encountered in catalogues and citations, so although it would be preferable to have a separate year-number parameter, the current guidelines for placing the "year-related value" in the volume parameter work well enough. At least the result is within the citation. The publication-date parameter is also within the citation for {{cite book}}, as it should be for {{cite journal}}.

      My request is to enable the publication-date parameter for {{cite journal}}. Ivan ( talk) 21:34, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      |publication-date= is already available in {{ cite journal}}.
      The following
      {{cite journal |title=title |journal=Journal |date=2006 |publication-date=2007 |orig-date=2005}}
      displays as
      "title". Journal (published 2007). 2006 [2005]. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 21:56, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Thank you! I must have been using it incorrectly. Ivan ( talk) 22:19, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Happy editing. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 22:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Also you signature shouldn't hide your actual username (see WP:CUSTOMSIG/P). -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested « @» ° ∆t° 22:06, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      Ideally yes, but I don't want my Cyrillic signature to attract uninvited attention since most of the editors on the articles I usually edit are Croats. Fortunately, this RfC allows for signatures that do not correspond exactly to usernames. Ivan ( talk) 22:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Generic name

      Can you add "phone" and "email" to the generic name list so you get a "CS1 errors: generic name" error. Thanks Keith D ( talk) 18:50, 26 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Language is missing in template

      Langauge is needed on de.wikipedia.org if a German langauge citation is added. Langauge can therefor not be omitted. Theking2 ( talk) 11:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC) reply

      Not so. From de:Vorlage:Internetquelle/Doku: "|sprache=de für „deutsch“ ist nicht erforderlich …" [… for German is not required …]. -- Michael Bednarek ( talk) 11:57, 27 March 2024 (UTC) reply
      ( edit conflict)
      If one is to believe the wikidata list of wikipedias using Module:Citation/CS1 ( Module:Citation/CS1 (Q15403807)), de.wiki does not support cs1|2. If you are having a problem at de.wiki, you must discuss the problem there.
      Trappist the monk ( talk) 12:03, 27 March 2024 (UTC) reply

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