This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
The "thread" (if it can be described as such) about this one has been (mercifully) achived but it seems to still be necessary to mention it yet again. Apart from the Disney version of Aladdin the fact is that flying carpets are NOT an "Arabian Nights" thing. Not only is there no flying carpet in the original tale of Aladdin - but the only other story (The Three Brothers) that has a Magic Carpet is very specific (unless the original Burton translation is grotesquely inaccurate) that the carpet doesn't actually "fly". It magically moves itself from place to place "in an instant" - typically from one indoors location to another. In science fiction terms it "teleports" (although this may not be an awfully good analogy - magic and science DO work on fundamentally different premises). One might add that The Three Brothers is (like Aladdin) most probably not part of the original 1001 nights collection anyway - the fact that it is tucked away in a supplemntary volume of Burton is highly suss. The "flying" magic carpet in the form of a handy little prayer mat affair is much more a part of Russian folklore than Arabian - while "Solomon's carpet" is a very different item again - whole armies could ride it in a fairly stately way. In fact it was so vast that even jouneying from one side to the other would have been quite a feat! Western "retellings" of the stories may well "do a Disney" and add a Russian style flying carpet here and there, but I think it is important to keep this idea out of the article, even in the form of a misleading illustration. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:11, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
These come before a consideration of Hazār Afsān because they would be historically earlier, not because they are more important, or more likely. Put afterwards doesn't make sense. If the Indian works mentioned had an influence on the nights (which is by no means certain) then they would have done so by influencing Hazār Afsān, which in turn influenced the nights. The question is one of time (hence chronological), nothing to do with putting the "best" stuff first. Please, if anyone is serious about rearranging this text - could you raise your reasons here rather than repeatedly attacking the article? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 05:50, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
By mostly "soundofmusic" it seems. Seeing the history of it, it seems this person undos anything related to Persian in regards to it. There is absolutely no reliable source to put this as an Arabic literature. But clearly any sign of this being Persian gets removed instantly by soundofmusic or folantin. Thousands and one nights is mostly a Persian literature, and has been proven to be so by reliable sources such as Encyclopedia Iranica.
Someone who actually edits here, please pay attention to this matter. This person has a high agenda here, as obvious in his constant reverts of the facts, making this work look all Arabic. SomeGuy1122 ( talk) 20:12, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
As i know and also stated in article, "the tales themselves trace their roots back to ancient and medieval Arabic, Persian, Indian, Egyptian and Mesopotamian folklore and literature". also mentioned that : "the frame story, are most probably drawn from the Pahlavi Persian work Hazār Afsān (Persian: هزار افسان, lit. A Thousand Tales)"
And we know that many names in book are Persian and we know that in Islamic ages, the Persian ancient kings turned to Arabic Caliphate and .... So what is the problem if I insert the Persian name as Arabic name is mentioned!? برسام ( talk) 13:31, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
FYI in French, German, Spanish, Turkish, Azeri, Kurdish, Russian ( and many other languages) Wikis , the Persian name mentioned beside the Arabic name.
برسام (
talk) 05:34, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
There is no reference to Princess Dunyazade in the article itself, and in the article about painter John Frederick Lewis this painting is called "The coffee bearer", so its relationship to One Thousand and One Night is at least questionable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.93.102.249 ( talk) 11:18, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Regarding point 9, I think you should actually read history rather than blindly winging false stereotypes as historical fact. Most Arabs were actually urbanised and far wealthier than the Sassanians. A good name look up Hira and the Lakhmanids prior to the destructoion of their advanced civilisation by the Persians. However, there were also some semi-nomadicherders/pasturalists among the Arabs - just as there were amongst the Sassanians. The purely nomadic camel herders of Arabia (and even city-dwellers in the Hijaz) were actually Arabised relatively late. Secondly, regading the names, the frame story is more likely written by Arab Authors. The names are likely the ancient Arabian version of the English Literature "in a land far, far away". They purposely used names exotic to them and their readers to make the fantasy aspects of the stories more feasible. Also, these characters were based on Indian Loyalty,not Persian Loyalty - they spoke similar indo-aryan languages. Finally, there is no proof whatsoever of Persian origins to the stories. Tabari was from a Persian-speaking ethnic group in central asia (not necessarily Persian), and he became completely Islamised and Arabised. Your attempt to take credit or associate yourself (as a Persian) to Tabari are wholly illogical. 89.242.34.47 ( talk) 00:08, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
There are several different ways of spelling this in English (the second word has several versions as well) - most of them are "correct", just depends how you convert the Arabic and Latin alphabets. This one was selected (by consensus) many many moons ago - it is at least as "correct" as any of the other spellings. Please leave it as it is and find something more constructive to do! -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
The synopsis of the plot (in particular of the frame story) may well be subject to improvement - but NOT by adding adjectives and adverbs to sentences and attempting to raise dramatic tension and "colour". This is an encyclopedia article, and the synopsis needs to be as accurate as possible, but at the same time a succinct summary rather than the kind of retelling we'd give it in book, especially one for children. Read the original (preferably in Burton - although one of the modern translations will also give you the drift). NOT a kiddie-widdie retelling, because this is one point where vigorous bowdlerisation is actually necessary! -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 11:28, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
A "citation needed" tag was recently added that on the surface seemed to ask for just that. But I concede it's not quite that simple. Someone (from a cited source) made a point that different versions of a story sometimes follow each other, one rather less serious than the other, and suggested this might be a form of "self-parody". Someone else (apparently) thought this a little far-fetched, and suggested that this "assumed a degree of editorial control inconsistent with the history of the work" (or something to that effect). Three things we could do here -
1. We could just cut the whole passage, on the grounds that any suggestion that there is sophisticated editorial control at work here is nonsense, and doesn't need to be mentioned, even if someone, somewhere thought it did.
2. Leave the passage as it is - but retain the "comment" - as while it is uncitable it does add a common sense note of caution to a rather unlikely statement.
3. Leave the (cited) "self-parody" content, but delete the uncited (and uncitable) comment.
I really think No.3 is untenable, even if it seems on the surface to be closer to "the rules" - and that it's practically a choice between 1. and 2.: on the whole I prefer 1., and in fact I will chop out the whole thing unless someone comes up with an argument in favour of keeping it. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 12:48, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
The article mentions Muhsin Mahdi's work, but doesn't cite any of them, which is a pity. For example, I found his The Thousand and One Nights: From the Earliest Known Sources very complete, interesting, and useful (though I've only read a tiny bit, and so far I haven't used it much in WP edits). Other editors may wish to consult it. Unfortunately, it is very expensive (but snippets are available on Amazon...).
Similarly, Husain Haddawy's translation using Mahdi's text is mentioned in the text, but doesn't get a full citation. Besides the translations themselves, it includes 25 pages of introduction. And it is reasonably priced. -- Macrakis ( talk) 18:00, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Not sure that we need to (or could) mention every reference to the Nights by every writer, however prominent - especially when he is mentioning, or expounding on, an old tradition, rather than making an original remark. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 15:04, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
A new editor brought a very interesting article to our attention. (Easily found by "Google or similar"). It reads as a little too speculative to fully solve the mystery of the origin of the Nights and its exact relationship with Hazar Afsan - but coming from a distinguished Iraqi literary critic it is well worth mentioning. We have an article for Ibn al-Muqaffa' which mentions a number of his translations and original works in similar genres to the Nights, but does not mention this idea of Khulusi's that he may have been the first Arabic translator of at least part of Hazar Afsan. Would someone like to add this information, (with its references) to the Ibn al-Muqaffa' or the Safa Khulusi articles? They are straying to the very edges of my own knowledge and interest. Some other information from the Khulusi reference (such as that Ibn al-Muqaffa' was an Islamic convert with a "Magian" (i.e. Zoroastrian) background, might also add some interest to the al-Muqaffa' article. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 00:07, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
A possible prototype could be the Sanskrit Tantropakhyana, a work inspired by the Panchatantra. The Sanskrit original is in fragmentary condition but its translations and adaptations exist in Tamil (Panchantantravachana), Lao (Nang Tantai), Thai (Nang Tantrai) and Old Javanese (Tantri Kamandaka). The text begins with a king named Aishvaryapala or Manda Chakravarti (perhaps a corruption of Nanda Chakravarti, the Magadhan emperor) who sees a wedding procession and consequently conceives a desire to have a new bride himself every day. He gives order to his chief minister to supply a beautiful new girl everyday for this purpose. After many days, the minister finds he has despatched every possible girl to the palace and is in despair at having no bride for the next day. His daughter Tantra offers to go herself, saying simply that she would tell the King stories so that there would be no more trouble. She convinces her father by telling him stories to convince him that she can save his life. The minister is forced to agree. Tantra takes with her her maid. After the union the king rests on his bed and Tantra with her maid attends on him. The king appears to sleep, but Tantra says to the maid that they should not sleep, so she will tell her stories to pass the time. The text continues with the first book of Panchatantra called Nandaka-prakarana (the tale of a lion king duped by his minister), followed by (original) Pakshi-prakarana (the successful election of the king of the birds), Manduka-prakarana (the tale of the king of the frogs duped by an external enemy) and Pishacha-prakarana (the failed election of the king of the goblins) - all of which contain emboxed fables with animals as characters. The stories tend to be instructive and especially to serve as warnings against rash actions. Often the matter is such as might appeal to the interest of a king, which of course is most appropriate for the situation in the frame story but calls for the discretion of veiling in beast fable form. One might say that Tantra, though her main aim is to entertain and beguile, holds the mirror to tyranny. When Tantra has narrated the prakaranas the king is so delighted with her that he makes her his chief queen.
The frame story of Scheherazade is similar to that of Tantra. But the stories which follow are mostly quite different from the anything in the Sanskrit work. They are largely of rascals and trickery among men and women, though some may be traced to Indian originals outside the Tantra collection. The voyages of Sindbad especially suggest the voyages of Sanudasa in the Brihatkatha, whilst the genie deceived by a girl he thinks safely locked in a chest he carries with him goes back to the demon in the Samuggajataka and the Milinda Panha who is deceived though he swallows the chest. Similarly, The Tale of the Bull and the Ass and the linked Tale of the Merchant and his Wife found in the frame stories of the Nights could be traced back to The Jataka Tales, a collection of 547 Buddhist stories, which are for the most part moral stories with an ethical purpose. But many of the stories in the Nights reflect the society of the Arab storytellers and their audiences. They apparently seem to incorporate the characteristics of oral tradition. It is impossible to say whether this process of freely introducing new stories into the old frame had begun already in the lost Pahlavi source of the Arabic versions. The king and Scheherazade have Persian, not Indian, names, which shows some degree of adaptation of the frame story, though Shahryār is called king of India and China.
It is possible that the influence of the Panchatantra is via a Sanskrit adaptation called theTantropakhyana. Only fragments of the original Sanskrit form of this work exist, but translations or adaptations exist in Tamil, Lao, Thai and Old Javanese.
The frame story is particularly interesting, as it follows the broad outline of a concubine telling stories in order to maintain the interest and favour of a king - although the basis of the collection of stories is from the Panchatantra - with its original Indian setting.
-- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 14:34, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
There may very well be individual tales with Jewish origins (or at least influences), in fact it would be very strange if this were not the case, when you think about it - this may even be relevant and notable - although since we don't detail the possible Persian or Arabic (or other) origins of individual tales - this may be a little hard to work in, especially in a proper context.
But the Indian and Persian "origins" sections are not about particular tales but the collection in general. I don't think there is any argument that the collection as a whole is really Jewish? In fact, most regrettably, it must be said that several of the tales have slighting references to Jewish people/culture, and most Jewish characters are stereotypes.
In any case - the amount of detail (about the tales themselves) one ought to go into in a general article about the collection as a whole is debatable. There are just so many stories that to single out some for particular attention (which has been suggested) does present problems.
This is of course an invitation for debate, not a "fiat from on high" (or as in my case, "from on low"). -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 07:24, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
--
A consensus, beaten out from long and at times acrimonious discussion, says that the Arabic title is included here because it is after all the original - and the alternative English title ("Arabian Nights") merits a mention because it is in some quarters, at least, even better known than the correct one.
The "Persian title" is simply a translation of the Arabic - in the same way that the Tibetan or the Swahili titles would be. No need whatever to have it in the English language version of Wikipedia. The Persian influence on the Nights is through a quite different work called Hazār Afsān which is, sadly, lost. Read the article, where all this stuff is covered. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:30, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
This article presents the Arabian Nights as a Persian book, although no Persian version of this book is ever known. This book is entirely in the Arabic language, and it is set in an Arabic culture. It is amazing how this article characterizes the book as a Middle Persian book, although the Middle Persian origins of the book are just theories and speculations. The article needs a serious revision.-- HD86 ( talk) 05:42, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
The lead (and the entire article) should make it clear that the earliest known version of this book is that which Antoine Galland recorded from a Syrian man in Aleppo in the 18th century. The sentence which reads "The work was collected over many centuries by various authors, translators, and scholars across West, Central, South Asia and North Africa" is utter nonsense and outright lie, because this book was recorded for the first time in the 18th by Antoine Galland. There are fragmentary manuscripts which go back to earlier times, but all of those are in Arabic and none of them is in Persian or Sanskrit. The current lead (and the entire article) does not make these simple facts clear. It gives undue weight to the possible origins of the tales (not the book) and uses manipulative tactics to deceive the readers and make them think that this book was formerly recorded by Persians and Indians, which is not the case.-- HD86 ( talk) 20:47, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, I admit that the article is good and has much information, but my suggestion is to make a clearer distinction between the famous book called Arabian Nights and the tales contained in the book. The article currently mingles these two issues. The sentence "The work was collected over many centuries by various authors, translators, and scholars across West, Central, South Asia and North Africa" will make some readers believe that we have old manuscripts of the current work in Persian or Sanskrit, whereas we do not even have complete Arabic ones. In my opinion, the Article should say the following "the current book was compiled by Antoine Galland in the 18th century. There are incomplete Arabic manuscripts that date to earlier periods. There are no known Persian or Sanskrit manuscripts, but scholars believe that the Arabic book is probably based on older Iranian and Indian literature, at least in part. There is evidence that the part such and such is taken or influenced from the such and such Persian or Indian work." -- HD86 ( talk) 03:10, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
This section is (at least on the face of it) well cited - to the degree that ANY excision really needs to be justified: either on the grounds that the cited source(s) do not support a particular statement - or that the source itself is unreliable. The sentence that has been tagged as needing a citation is in this case so consistent with the sentence that follows, not to mention the section as a whole, that tagging it as needing further citation(s) cannot be lightly justified. If the existing reference is in some way spurious, then one ought to be able to (boldly) delete the sentence itself, explaining that the author cited says nothing of the kind (perhaps telling us what he does say instead). If on the other hand the tagger has in fact no idea what the source says one way or the other, because he has not looked, then one can only observe that even a "cn" tag can constitute WP:OR. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 07:56, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
The constant reinstatement of irrelevant material in the first sentence of the lead of this article has reached the point that it constitutes deliberate vandalism. The point of not having a Persian translation of the title in this article is covered in the note under "Title" above. Don't like to suggest this, but the IP(s?) from which this nonsense emanates probably need banning, too -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 08:54, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
A recent edit tried to change the setting of the frame from Persia to Baghdad. But the Hadaway translation clearly states that Shahrayar ruled in India and Indochina (which seems outside the Sasanid Empire), and that Shahzaman ruled in Samarkand. What to other translations and scholars say about the location? Thanks, Aristophanes68 (talk) 16:22, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
There are many twists and turns in the plot of the frame story - the story of the slave woman of the Jinn, who keeps a large collection of the rings of the kings with whom she has cuckolded her "husband" - blackmailing them into having sex with her by threats to awaken the sleeping Jinn - is one case in point - another is the details of exploits of the two adulterous queens who raise the whole trouble in the first place. At some stage or other we do have to call a truce and decide on a synopsis or summary that gives the broad outline, does not introduce detail that makes it harder to understand, and above all does not take up too much space! Unless we practically retell the story at more or less its original length the effect of adding what are effectively extra "sub-stories" will be to muddle and confuse as much as inform. In any case, a good synopsis shouldn't "spoil" too much of the yarn (it is quite an entertaining one when all is said and done). All a matter of balance of course, but I think we actually reached a pretty good balance years ago with this one. Open for discussion, this one, naturally. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 22:03, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
One Thousand and One Nights. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 04:05, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
To cavalierly dismiss all research since the 1870s - on this or any other subject - is probably not vrey encyclopedic. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:11, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help)
It's obvious from the names of the characters and the language of the stories that they all originated from the old Persian empire to the Arab caliphates thru narrations by the storytellers as Arabs did't know how to read Persian literature.Later they were translated to Arabic by the Persians who were hired by the caliphates and the original book destroyed just like many other Persian books that were burned or destroyed after the take over by the Arabs.In fact in the book itself these stories are narrated by a story teller named Shahrzad (Persian name for ladies) who was trying to buy her life back by extending the number of the nights she was given by the caliphate before being beheaded.I don't know of any Arabic literature before the invasion of Persia other than Quran which has stories in it and of course those stories are from the bible.
I changed the "six" to "seven" as the number of volumes in the Supplement. I own an unnumbered copy of the "Baghdad Edition" (1000 impressions), and it has 7 numbered physical volumes in the Supplement, even though internally they're a little goofy.
In physical volume 3, stamped as such on the spine and listed as such in the title page, Burton complains in his foreword that his planned sequence has been completely "dislocated" by the Curators of the Bodlean, and says the whys and wherefores will be explained in due time. The TOC is for volume 3, but it lists more stories than the body of the volume actually contains.
In physical volume IV, stamped and titled as such, he goes straight into the tales with no TOC or Foreward. It turns out that this physical volume is the second part of the 3rd logical volume, with The Caliph's Night Adventure being the first story. It's unclear whether this is the result of the "dislocation". It might be something the printer did, so that the vol III would not stand out in the bookcase by being twice as thick as any of the others.
Physical volumes V, VI, and VII, stamped and titled as such, are logical volumes IV, V, and VI. 98.118.17.62 ( talk) 18:47, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
I have two questions regarding the r.f. burton translation, the b.a. cerf selection and the "Egyptian recension":
"The first European version (1704–1717) was translated into French by Antoine Galland from an Arabic text of the Syrian recension and other sources. This 12-volume work ... included stories that were not in the original Arabic manuscript. "Aladdin's Lamp" and "Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves" (as well as several other, lesser known tales) appeared first in Galland's translation and cannot be found in any of the original manuscripts. ... As scholars were looking for the presumed "complete" and "original" form of the Nights, they naturally turned to the more voluminous texts of the Egyptian recension, which soon came to be viewed as the "standard version". The first translations ... and then by Sir Richard Francis Burton..."
now amazon says about the burton-translation, that it contains the stories that Galland seems to have added (see below). so one must conclude that the "Egyptian recension" contains the Galland-version... can this be right? and if so, how did it get there? back-translation?
The Arabian Nights: Tales from a Thousand and One Nights (Modern Library Classics) (Englisch) Taschenbuch – 1. Juni 2004 von A.S. Byatt (Einleitung), Richard Burton (Übersetzer)
"This volume reproduces the 1932 Modern Library edition, for which Bennett A. Cerf chose the most famous and representative stories from Sir Richard F. Burton's multivolume translation, and includes Burton's extensive and acclaimed explanatory notes. These tales, including Alaeddin; or, the Wonderful Lamp, Sinbad the Seaman and Sinbad the Landsman, and Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves...")
and finally - if I may -: how much (%) and what did Bennett A. Cerf omit? does the text lose authenticity for a connaisseur?
thanks! -- HilmarHansWerner ( talk) 00:13, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
At least at its best, the wording of Wikipedia can be very precise. A recent well meant (good faith) edit rendered a long standing edit from the lead as: It is also known in English as the Arabian Nights, as the first English language edition (1706) rendered the title as The Arabian Nights' Entertainment. The changes were:
1. "often" rendered to "also". Nothing clearer, or more grammatical, of even better punctuated about THIS bit. What's more, we lose an important nuance - probably "Arabian Nights" is the title most familiar with English-speaking readers, and indeed the article has in the past been known by that title. We do really need "often" rather than "also" here. As a general rule, few edits that makes text less specific are an improvement on the original.
2. The conventional English title is taken FROM the title of the first English-language edition. It is not identical - the "entertainment" bit was cut off. This what the original text says, pretty precisely. The modified text also says something fairly precise, but it is something different, and less accurate. Again - editing to make text "clearer" needs to be based on a full understanding of what existing text says. - Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:11, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
Arabian Tales, or continuations of Arabian Nights' Entertainments, translated from the French, 4 vols. 1792. Robert Heron.
/info/en/?search=Robert_Heron_(writer)
Should it be entered or is his publication not considered a true ANE? Just wondering
Just putting another note as I forgot to log in under my wikipedia name — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hanslune ( talk • contribs) 02:34, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Tarook97: I don't know why you called this edit "arbitrary". It reflects the standard Arabic spelling and pronunciation of the title, and I'll now cite a standard reference. If you think that pointed vowels and formal case endings better reflect the body of RSs per WP:NPOV, please present sources to demonstrate it. Eperoton ( talk) 00:41, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Hi Viaros17, i would appreciate a clarification regarding these edits : [2] (removal of "one thousand and one nights" in Persian) and [3] (Shahriyar is a Persian name and is written in Persian, with the Perso-Arabic script of course, this is not an Arabic name). Thanks.--- Wikaviani ( talk) 20:50, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
When it comes to a Persian name it is better to write it with the two languages; because the language of the story is Arabic, and the origin of the name is Persian. So you cannot remove anyone of them.
هارون الرشيد العربي ( talk) 08:11, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
Changing something over and over again doesn't necessarily make it right. If you want to change something and someone else wants to keep the existing text, then it is up to you to justify your change. In general a section heading needs to be the simplest and most straightforward possible description of the section - this particular section has had this heading for a good while and has not been a bone of contention before now. So please justify this edit. A flat assertion that you are "correcting an error" obviously isn't enough. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 20:41, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
There is nothing whatever in the dictionary or ordinary use of the word "version" to support your assumption that it implies a "mere" or minor variation - take as an example the "Disneyfied version" of almost anything! "Versions" is of course the right word here - I am totally bemused by the idea that "transformations" would be better in any way. On the other hand do have a look at the heading as it is now ("Evolving Arabic versions") which might be thought to make the nature of the different versions clearer. (Frankly I don't - I much prefer the original, before this argument started!) -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 02:27, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
I noticed this article is being "classified" as an "arab culture" article. This is incorrect as the One Thousand and One Nights book is multi-cultural series of stories encapsulated by a Persian frame story. I think the Arab culture classification is misleading and should probably be removed. Xarhunter ( talk) 09:17, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Persian have no thing with Arab culture , and the official language of Islamic civilization was the Arabic. هارون الرشيد العربي ( talk) 07:54, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
As if it were necessary to defend this article yet again from another set of POV attacks! The scholarly consensus of the relationship between these two works has been well covered for many years and is not disputed by any reputable source (even, so far as I know, by an Iranian one). Not every article in an encyclopedia will ever please everyone - but Wikipedia rejects (as it must) every kind of unconfirmed personal opinion or prejudice. If we can't always find the full truth - especially as Hezār Afsān no longer actually exists (for whatever reason) and it is not possible to objectively assess exactly what relation it had to either the "Arabic" work (the subject of this article, for good or ill) or the Indian prototype - or, for that matter, what stories it might have contained. Any surmise claiming the consensus of scholars to be erroneous is totally beyond our brief here - if they are wrong then it is simply not our place to correct them off our own bat, replacing what is generally believed with something else - however much we want it to be so. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 02:38, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Before I edited the page, the two sentences around line 32 read: "Shahryār is shocked to learn that his brother's wife is unfaithful; discovering that his own wife's infidelity has been even more flagrant and he has her killed."
The informational content seems fine to me. However, "...discovering that his own wife's infidelity has been even more flagrant..." is a participial phrase that is clearly meant to refer to "he" in "...he has her killed." If this participial phrase is joined to "he has her killed" by "and", the whole thing becomes a dangling participial phrase, and lacks parallel construction, as well. These are, in my opinion, not obscure points of grammar (especially the former) and shouldn't need further citation.
Based on the edit history, it doesn't appear that my edit was specifically targeted for reversion, but was rather part of a sweeping change by the user. I suspect he/she may have saved his/her version, and merely copy/pasted it as part of the single edit. If so, I hope that he/she (and any other interested parties) will opt for a more "surgical" edit in the future.
I am currently engaged with an argument with an IP over at Scheherazade about the language tagging of the name Scheherazade. The article previously had it tagged as Arabic, but an IP changed it to Persian. This was reverted by another editor. Either the same or a different IP (the address keeps changing) then changing the name to no language and upon my reverting, claimed that I must prove that the name is Arabic. I would appreciate some outside input on the matter.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 21:57, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
Why is Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, etc EXCLUDED from the list once the list of the origins for the 1001 nights starts listing religions? Are those religious cultures assumed included by naming "India"? To mention one religious culture while excluding others is a glaring omission of facts.
The result of the move request was: not moved ( non-admin closure) ~SS49~ {talk} 01:37, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Shouldn't One Thousand and One Nights redirect to Arabian Nights? Since this is English Wikipedia and Arabian Nights is what people call it in English, plus One Thousand and One Nights just sounds weird. Beevest ( talk) 01:09, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
One Thousand and One Nights → Arabian Nights – Arabian Nights is what it's called in English, and this is English Wikipedia. NightBag10 ( talk) 16:29, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
I felt article Islamic_literature is in bit of neglect so I added my note on talk page there, requesting to take note of Talk:Islamic_literature#Article_review. If possible requesting copy edit support. Suggestions for suitable reference sources at Talk:Islamic_literature is also welcome.
Posting message here too for neutrality sake
Thanks and greetings
Bookku ( talk) 08:00, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
It is absolutely striking how biased the English version of this article is! In particular the introduction. I invite the multilingual community to look at the other versions available and draw their own conclusions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.0.160.167 ( talk) 18:33, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
This work is (alas) long lost. The scholarly consensus, (not to mention a very long outstanding Wikipedia consensus) is pretty much as we have it here. Its relationship with the subject of this article is mentioned in the lead, as well as having its own section. The archives for this talk page have many pages of discussion as to whether we should give more emphasis than we do to the Persian background to the nights - the current text is in fact based on the sources (including the Encyclopedia Iranica) and a very long-standing consensus. Anyone wishing to raise NEW arguments please raise them here first - and they'd better be scholarly. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 22:58, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Editors supposing that the bare mention of this (English) title is somehow "biased" need to recognise that this is in fact the usual English name for the subject of the article. It is of course patently unscholarly - which is why strong pressure to actually rename the article has been stoutly resisted for so long, but surely we are allowed to mention it - if only so that our typical English reader will recognise he has found the article s/he is looking for. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:15, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
In all, the article is quite judicious in its subsections in conveying the inextricable pre-Islamic Persian origin of the work (a direct translation of Hezār Afsān or “1000 Tales”), as reflected in its literary style, tales, settings and characters (Shahrazad, Shahryar, Dunyazad, Ja'far, Zumurrud, Princess Paribanoo, Shah Zaman, Sindbad, Morgiana, King Yunan, Khusrau Parviz, Shirin, etc.). It later expounds on the idea that many of the tales were superficially modified to include Arab Islamic names and settings in place of pre-Islamic Persian ones (Ali Shar, Prince Ali, Prince Ahmed, etc.), and even many of the Abbasid-era characters who were later added particularly in the medieval Baghdad cluster are Persians, or their stories take place in Persia (Ja'far al-Barmaki, Ishaq al-Mawsili, Ibrahim al-Mawsili, Abu Nuwas, etc.). See: /info/en/?search=List_of_One_Thousand_and_One_Nights_characters
Indeed, the Nights bares a striking likeness to the vast compendium of secular Persian literature and prose which has no equivalent in the scant pre-modern Arabic literature, except for apparently this work from over a millennium before present (which again, was originally a translation of a Persian book). This is not, however, reflected in the introduction, which makes use of the imprecise term “Middle Eastern” (its only incidence in the article) and goes so far as to ascribe Greek, Turkish, and even Jewish pedigrees to the tales, which has no evidential basis or justification in any scholarship and, again, is not explained in the remainder of the Wikipedia article (indeed upon closer examination of the reference, the Marzolph book [1] merely uses the same sentence without providing any examples or justification.) Readers with even a rudimentary understanding of the region’s demographic history are immediately struck by the fact that Turkic tribes had not yet migrated from Central Asia/Siberia into the Near East when the original Persian and Abbasid versions were composed, and that implying an elusive Jewish presence in the Nights is nothing short of inane.
A more reasonable introduction would address the issue of the English moniker “Arabian Nights” being regarded as a misnomer, and in doing so acknowledge the disproportionate Persian provenance and nature of the Nights, which is addressed thoroughly using primary sources in the body of the article. If the moderators view relocating the etymologies of the two main characters Shahrzadeh and Shahryar from the synopsis section to the introduction (where they are first mentioned) or questioning flagrantly unfounded claims of Turkish, Greek, and Jewish presence in the Nights as “chauvinism”, I encourage them to reexamine their own biases in the way in which they subconsciously view this piece of literature-- that is, removed from the distorted Orientalist lens of Western historiography. 108.49.112.200 ( talk) 19:00, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
In searching for sources backing up the content in this article, I came across this webpage, which contains substantially similar content to this article. The earliest snapshot of the webpage on the Internet Archive is from 2016, which is much later than the content was added to Wikipedia. Judging from the editing history of the article, I believe the webpage has copied and pasted from Wikipedia rather than the other way around. I've added {{ Backwards copy}} to this talk page. Feel free to correct if I've made a mistake. MClay1 ( talk) 02:00, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
I am still in progress with a reference/citation format cleanup. —¿philoserf? ( talk) 13:12, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
Is it possible for the page to accept the digits with the word both combined as "1001 Nights". 137.59.221.36 ( talk) 20:00, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
1001 Nights has based itself in Baghdad and intends to tell stories that took place when the Islamosphere claimed its "Golden Age".
I have noticed that description of women characters are missing and that the romance that this page once presented has become absent. 137.59.221.36 ( talk) 20:03, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
The "thread" (if it can be described as such) about this one has been (mercifully) achived but it seems to still be necessary to mention it yet again. Apart from the Disney version of Aladdin the fact is that flying carpets are NOT an "Arabian Nights" thing. Not only is there no flying carpet in the original tale of Aladdin - but the only other story (The Three Brothers) that has a Magic Carpet is very specific (unless the original Burton translation is grotesquely inaccurate) that the carpet doesn't actually "fly". It magically moves itself from place to place "in an instant" - typically from one indoors location to another. In science fiction terms it "teleports" (although this may not be an awfully good analogy - magic and science DO work on fundamentally different premises). One might add that The Three Brothers is (like Aladdin) most probably not part of the original 1001 nights collection anyway - the fact that it is tucked away in a supplemntary volume of Burton is highly suss. The "flying" magic carpet in the form of a handy little prayer mat affair is much more a part of Russian folklore than Arabian - while "Solomon's carpet" is a very different item again - whole armies could ride it in a fairly stately way. In fact it was so vast that even jouneying from one side to the other would have been quite a feat! Western "retellings" of the stories may well "do a Disney" and add a Russian style flying carpet here and there, but I think it is important to keep this idea out of the article, even in the form of a misleading illustration. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:11, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
These come before a consideration of Hazār Afsān because they would be historically earlier, not because they are more important, or more likely. Put afterwards doesn't make sense. If the Indian works mentioned had an influence on the nights (which is by no means certain) then they would have done so by influencing Hazār Afsān, which in turn influenced the nights. The question is one of time (hence chronological), nothing to do with putting the "best" stuff first. Please, if anyone is serious about rearranging this text - could you raise your reasons here rather than repeatedly attacking the article? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 05:50, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
By mostly "soundofmusic" it seems. Seeing the history of it, it seems this person undos anything related to Persian in regards to it. There is absolutely no reliable source to put this as an Arabic literature. But clearly any sign of this being Persian gets removed instantly by soundofmusic or folantin. Thousands and one nights is mostly a Persian literature, and has been proven to be so by reliable sources such as Encyclopedia Iranica.
Someone who actually edits here, please pay attention to this matter. This person has a high agenda here, as obvious in his constant reverts of the facts, making this work look all Arabic. SomeGuy1122 ( talk) 20:12, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
As i know and also stated in article, "the tales themselves trace their roots back to ancient and medieval Arabic, Persian, Indian, Egyptian and Mesopotamian folklore and literature". also mentioned that : "the frame story, are most probably drawn from the Pahlavi Persian work Hazār Afsān (Persian: هزار افسان, lit. A Thousand Tales)"
And we know that many names in book are Persian and we know that in Islamic ages, the Persian ancient kings turned to Arabic Caliphate and .... So what is the problem if I insert the Persian name as Arabic name is mentioned!? برسام ( talk) 13:31, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
FYI in French, German, Spanish, Turkish, Azeri, Kurdish, Russian ( and many other languages) Wikis , the Persian name mentioned beside the Arabic name.
برسام (
talk) 05:34, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
There is no reference to Princess Dunyazade in the article itself, and in the article about painter John Frederick Lewis this painting is called "The coffee bearer", so its relationship to One Thousand and One Night is at least questionable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.93.102.249 ( talk) 11:18, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Regarding point 9, I think you should actually read history rather than blindly winging false stereotypes as historical fact. Most Arabs were actually urbanised and far wealthier than the Sassanians. A good name look up Hira and the Lakhmanids prior to the destructoion of their advanced civilisation by the Persians. However, there were also some semi-nomadicherders/pasturalists among the Arabs - just as there were amongst the Sassanians. The purely nomadic camel herders of Arabia (and even city-dwellers in the Hijaz) were actually Arabised relatively late. Secondly, regading the names, the frame story is more likely written by Arab Authors. The names are likely the ancient Arabian version of the English Literature "in a land far, far away". They purposely used names exotic to them and their readers to make the fantasy aspects of the stories more feasible. Also, these characters were based on Indian Loyalty,not Persian Loyalty - they spoke similar indo-aryan languages. Finally, there is no proof whatsoever of Persian origins to the stories. Tabari was from a Persian-speaking ethnic group in central asia (not necessarily Persian), and he became completely Islamised and Arabised. Your attempt to take credit or associate yourself (as a Persian) to Tabari are wholly illogical. 89.242.34.47 ( talk) 00:08, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
There are several different ways of spelling this in English (the second word has several versions as well) - most of them are "correct", just depends how you convert the Arabic and Latin alphabets. This one was selected (by consensus) many many moons ago - it is at least as "correct" as any of the other spellings. Please leave it as it is and find something more constructive to do! -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
The synopsis of the plot (in particular of the frame story) may well be subject to improvement - but NOT by adding adjectives and adverbs to sentences and attempting to raise dramatic tension and "colour". This is an encyclopedia article, and the synopsis needs to be as accurate as possible, but at the same time a succinct summary rather than the kind of retelling we'd give it in book, especially one for children. Read the original (preferably in Burton - although one of the modern translations will also give you the drift). NOT a kiddie-widdie retelling, because this is one point where vigorous bowdlerisation is actually necessary! -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 11:28, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
A "citation needed" tag was recently added that on the surface seemed to ask for just that. But I concede it's not quite that simple. Someone (from a cited source) made a point that different versions of a story sometimes follow each other, one rather less serious than the other, and suggested this might be a form of "self-parody". Someone else (apparently) thought this a little far-fetched, and suggested that this "assumed a degree of editorial control inconsistent with the history of the work" (or something to that effect). Three things we could do here -
1. We could just cut the whole passage, on the grounds that any suggestion that there is sophisticated editorial control at work here is nonsense, and doesn't need to be mentioned, even if someone, somewhere thought it did.
2. Leave the passage as it is - but retain the "comment" - as while it is uncitable it does add a common sense note of caution to a rather unlikely statement.
3. Leave the (cited) "self-parody" content, but delete the uncited (and uncitable) comment.
I really think No.3 is untenable, even if it seems on the surface to be closer to "the rules" - and that it's practically a choice between 1. and 2.: on the whole I prefer 1., and in fact I will chop out the whole thing unless someone comes up with an argument in favour of keeping it. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 12:48, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
The article mentions Muhsin Mahdi's work, but doesn't cite any of them, which is a pity. For example, I found his The Thousand and One Nights: From the Earliest Known Sources very complete, interesting, and useful (though I've only read a tiny bit, and so far I haven't used it much in WP edits). Other editors may wish to consult it. Unfortunately, it is very expensive (but snippets are available on Amazon...).
Similarly, Husain Haddawy's translation using Mahdi's text is mentioned in the text, but doesn't get a full citation. Besides the translations themselves, it includes 25 pages of introduction. And it is reasonably priced. -- Macrakis ( talk) 18:00, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
Not sure that we need to (or could) mention every reference to the Nights by every writer, however prominent - especially when he is mentioning, or expounding on, an old tradition, rather than making an original remark. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 15:04, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
A new editor brought a very interesting article to our attention. (Easily found by "Google or similar"). It reads as a little too speculative to fully solve the mystery of the origin of the Nights and its exact relationship with Hazar Afsan - but coming from a distinguished Iraqi literary critic it is well worth mentioning. We have an article for Ibn al-Muqaffa' which mentions a number of his translations and original works in similar genres to the Nights, but does not mention this idea of Khulusi's that he may have been the first Arabic translator of at least part of Hazar Afsan. Would someone like to add this information, (with its references) to the Ibn al-Muqaffa' or the Safa Khulusi articles? They are straying to the very edges of my own knowledge and interest. Some other information from the Khulusi reference (such as that Ibn al-Muqaffa' was an Islamic convert with a "Magian" (i.e. Zoroastrian) background, might also add some interest to the al-Muqaffa' article. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 00:07, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
A possible prototype could be the Sanskrit Tantropakhyana, a work inspired by the Panchatantra. The Sanskrit original is in fragmentary condition but its translations and adaptations exist in Tamil (Panchantantravachana), Lao (Nang Tantai), Thai (Nang Tantrai) and Old Javanese (Tantri Kamandaka). The text begins with a king named Aishvaryapala or Manda Chakravarti (perhaps a corruption of Nanda Chakravarti, the Magadhan emperor) who sees a wedding procession and consequently conceives a desire to have a new bride himself every day. He gives order to his chief minister to supply a beautiful new girl everyday for this purpose. After many days, the minister finds he has despatched every possible girl to the palace and is in despair at having no bride for the next day. His daughter Tantra offers to go herself, saying simply that she would tell the King stories so that there would be no more trouble. She convinces her father by telling him stories to convince him that she can save his life. The minister is forced to agree. Tantra takes with her her maid. After the union the king rests on his bed and Tantra with her maid attends on him. The king appears to sleep, but Tantra says to the maid that they should not sleep, so she will tell her stories to pass the time. The text continues with the first book of Panchatantra called Nandaka-prakarana (the tale of a lion king duped by his minister), followed by (original) Pakshi-prakarana (the successful election of the king of the birds), Manduka-prakarana (the tale of the king of the frogs duped by an external enemy) and Pishacha-prakarana (the failed election of the king of the goblins) - all of which contain emboxed fables with animals as characters. The stories tend to be instructive and especially to serve as warnings against rash actions. Often the matter is such as might appeal to the interest of a king, which of course is most appropriate for the situation in the frame story but calls for the discretion of veiling in beast fable form. One might say that Tantra, though her main aim is to entertain and beguile, holds the mirror to tyranny. When Tantra has narrated the prakaranas the king is so delighted with her that he makes her his chief queen.
The frame story of Scheherazade is similar to that of Tantra. But the stories which follow are mostly quite different from the anything in the Sanskrit work. They are largely of rascals and trickery among men and women, though some may be traced to Indian originals outside the Tantra collection. The voyages of Sindbad especially suggest the voyages of Sanudasa in the Brihatkatha, whilst the genie deceived by a girl he thinks safely locked in a chest he carries with him goes back to the demon in the Samuggajataka and the Milinda Panha who is deceived though he swallows the chest. Similarly, The Tale of the Bull and the Ass and the linked Tale of the Merchant and his Wife found in the frame stories of the Nights could be traced back to The Jataka Tales, a collection of 547 Buddhist stories, which are for the most part moral stories with an ethical purpose. But many of the stories in the Nights reflect the society of the Arab storytellers and their audiences. They apparently seem to incorporate the characteristics of oral tradition. It is impossible to say whether this process of freely introducing new stories into the old frame had begun already in the lost Pahlavi source of the Arabic versions. The king and Scheherazade have Persian, not Indian, names, which shows some degree of adaptation of the frame story, though Shahryār is called king of India and China.
It is possible that the influence of the Panchatantra is via a Sanskrit adaptation called theTantropakhyana. Only fragments of the original Sanskrit form of this work exist, but translations or adaptations exist in Tamil, Lao, Thai and Old Javanese.
The frame story is particularly interesting, as it follows the broad outline of a concubine telling stories in order to maintain the interest and favour of a king - although the basis of the collection of stories is from the Panchatantra - with its original Indian setting.
-- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 14:34, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
There may very well be individual tales with Jewish origins (or at least influences), in fact it would be very strange if this were not the case, when you think about it - this may even be relevant and notable - although since we don't detail the possible Persian or Arabic (or other) origins of individual tales - this may be a little hard to work in, especially in a proper context.
But the Indian and Persian "origins" sections are not about particular tales but the collection in general. I don't think there is any argument that the collection as a whole is really Jewish? In fact, most regrettably, it must be said that several of the tales have slighting references to Jewish people/culture, and most Jewish characters are stereotypes.
In any case - the amount of detail (about the tales themselves) one ought to go into in a general article about the collection as a whole is debatable. There are just so many stories that to single out some for particular attention (which has been suggested) does present problems.
This is of course an invitation for debate, not a "fiat from on high" (or as in my case, "from on low"). -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 07:24, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
--
A consensus, beaten out from long and at times acrimonious discussion, says that the Arabic title is included here because it is after all the original - and the alternative English title ("Arabian Nights") merits a mention because it is in some quarters, at least, even better known than the correct one.
The "Persian title" is simply a translation of the Arabic - in the same way that the Tibetan or the Swahili titles would be. No need whatever to have it in the English language version of Wikipedia. The Persian influence on the Nights is through a quite different work called Hazār Afsān which is, sadly, lost. Read the article, where all this stuff is covered. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:30, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
This article presents the Arabian Nights as a Persian book, although no Persian version of this book is ever known. This book is entirely in the Arabic language, and it is set in an Arabic culture. It is amazing how this article characterizes the book as a Middle Persian book, although the Middle Persian origins of the book are just theories and speculations. The article needs a serious revision.-- HD86 ( talk) 05:42, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
The lead (and the entire article) should make it clear that the earliest known version of this book is that which Antoine Galland recorded from a Syrian man in Aleppo in the 18th century. The sentence which reads "The work was collected over many centuries by various authors, translators, and scholars across West, Central, South Asia and North Africa" is utter nonsense and outright lie, because this book was recorded for the first time in the 18th by Antoine Galland. There are fragmentary manuscripts which go back to earlier times, but all of those are in Arabic and none of them is in Persian or Sanskrit. The current lead (and the entire article) does not make these simple facts clear. It gives undue weight to the possible origins of the tales (not the book) and uses manipulative tactics to deceive the readers and make them think that this book was formerly recorded by Persians and Indians, which is not the case.-- HD86 ( talk) 20:47, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, I admit that the article is good and has much information, but my suggestion is to make a clearer distinction between the famous book called Arabian Nights and the tales contained in the book. The article currently mingles these two issues. The sentence "The work was collected over many centuries by various authors, translators, and scholars across West, Central, South Asia and North Africa" will make some readers believe that we have old manuscripts of the current work in Persian or Sanskrit, whereas we do not even have complete Arabic ones. In my opinion, the Article should say the following "the current book was compiled by Antoine Galland in the 18th century. There are incomplete Arabic manuscripts that date to earlier periods. There are no known Persian or Sanskrit manuscripts, but scholars believe that the Arabic book is probably based on older Iranian and Indian literature, at least in part. There is evidence that the part such and such is taken or influenced from the such and such Persian or Indian work." -- HD86 ( talk) 03:10, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
This section is (at least on the face of it) well cited - to the degree that ANY excision really needs to be justified: either on the grounds that the cited source(s) do not support a particular statement - or that the source itself is unreliable. The sentence that has been tagged as needing a citation is in this case so consistent with the sentence that follows, not to mention the section as a whole, that tagging it as needing further citation(s) cannot be lightly justified. If the existing reference is in some way spurious, then one ought to be able to (boldly) delete the sentence itself, explaining that the author cited says nothing of the kind (perhaps telling us what he does say instead). If on the other hand the tagger has in fact no idea what the source says one way or the other, because he has not looked, then one can only observe that even a "cn" tag can constitute WP:OR. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 07:56, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
The constant reinstatement of irrelevant material in the first sentence of the lead of this article has reached the point that it constitutes deliberate vandalism. The point of not having a Persian translation of the title in this article is covered in the note under "Title" above. Don't like to suggest this, but the IP(s?) from which this nonsense emanates probably need banning, too -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 08:54, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
A recent edit tried to change the setting of the frame from Persia to Baghdad. But the Hadaway translation clearly states that Shahrayar ruled in India and Indochina (which seems outside the Sasanid Empire), and that Shahzaman ruled in Samarkand. What to other translations and scholars say about the location? Thanks, Aristophanes68 (talk) 16:22, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
There are many twists and turns in the plot of the frame story - the story of the slave woman of the Jinn, who keeps a large collection of the rings of the kings with whom she has cuckolded her "husband" - blackmailing them into having sex with her by threats to awaken the sleeping Jinn - is one case in point - another is the details of exploits of the two adulterous queens who raise the whole trouble in the first place. At some stage or other we do have to call a truce and decide on a synopsis or summary that gives the broad outline, does not introduce detail that makes it harder to understand, and above all does not take up too much space! Unless we practically retell the story at more or less its original length the effect of adding what are effectively extra "sub-stories" will be to muddle and confuse as much as inform. In any case, a good synopsis shouldn't "spoil" too much of the yarn (it is quite an entertaining one when all is said and done). All a matter of balance of course, but I think we actually reached a pretty good balance years ago with this one. Open for discussion, this one, naturally. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 22:03, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
One Thousand and One Nights. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 04:05, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
To cavalierly dismiss all research since the 1870s - on this or any other subject - is probably not vrey encyclopedic. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:11, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
{{
citation}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1=
(
help)
It's obvious from the names of the characters and the language of the stories that they all originated from the old Persian empire to the Arab caliphates thru narrations by the storytellers as Arabs did't know how to read Persian literature.Later they were translated to Arabic by the Persians who were hired by the caliphates and the original book destroyed just like many other Persian books that were burned or destroyed after the take over by the Arabs.In fact in the book itself these stories are narrated by a story teller named Shahrzad (Persian name for ladies) who was trying to buy her life back by extending the number of the nights she was given by the caliphate before being beheaded.I don't know of any Arabic literature before the invasion of Persia other than Quran which has stories in it and of course those stories are from the bible.
I changed the "six" to "seven" as the number of volumes in the Supplement. I own an unnumbered copy of the "Baghdad Edition" (1000 impressions), and it has 7 numbered physical volumes in the Supplement, even though internally they're a little goofy.
In physical volume 3, stamped as such on the spine and listed as such in the title page, Burton complains in his foreword that his planned sequence has been completely "dislocated" by the Curators of the Bodlean, and says the whys and wherefores will be explained in due time. The TOC is for volume 3, but it lists more stories than the body of the volume actually contains.
In physical volume IV, stamped and titled as such, he goes straight into the tales with no TOC or Foreward. It turns out that this physical volume is the second part of the 3rd logical volume, with The Caliph's Night Adventure being the first story. It's unclear whether this is the result of the "dislocation". It might be something the printer did, so that the vol III would not stand out in the bookcase by being twice as thick as any of the others.
Physical volumes V, VI, and VII, stamped and titled as such, are logical volumes IV, V, and VI. 98.118.17.62 ( talk) 18:47, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
I have two questions regarding the r.f. burton translation, the b.a. cerf selection and the "Egyptian recension":
"The first European version (1704–1717) was translated into French by Antoine Galland from an Arabic text of the Syrian recension and other sources. This 12-volume work ... included stories that were not in the original Arabic manuscript. "Aladdin's Lamp" and "Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves" (as well as several other, lesser known tales) appeared first in Galland's translation and cannot be found in any of the original manuscripts. ... As scholars were looking for the presumed "complete" and "original" form of the Nights, they naturally turned to the more voluminous texts of the Egyptian recension, which soon came to be viewed as the "standard version". The first translations ... and then by Sir Richard Francis Burton..."
now amazon says about the burton-translation, that it contains the stories that Galland seems to have added (see below). so one must conclude that the "Egyptian recension" contains the Galland-version... can this be right? and if so, how did it get there? back-translation?
The Arabian Nights: Tales from a Thousand and One Nights (Modern Library Classics) (Englisch) Taschenbuch – 1. Juni 2004 von A.S. Byatt (Einleitung), Richard Burton (Übersetzer)
"This volume reproduces the 1932 Modern Library edition, for which Bennett A. Cerf chose the most famous and representative stories from Sir Richard F. Burton's multivolume translation, and includes Burton's extensive and acclaimed explanatory notes. These tales, including Alaeddin; or, the Wonderful Lamp, Sinbad the Seaman and Sinbad the Landsman, and Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves...")
and finally - if I may -: how much (%) and what did Bennett A. Cerf omit? does the text lose authenticity for a connaisseur?
thanks! -- HilmarHansWerner ( talk) 00:13, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
At least at its best, the wording of Wikipedia can be very precise. A recent well meant (good faith) edit rendered a long standing edit from the lead as: It is also known in English as the Arabian Nights, as the first English language edition (1706) rendered the title as The Arabian Nights' Entertainment. The changes were:
1. "often" rendered to "also". Nothing clearer, or more grammatical, of even better punctuated about THIS bit. What's more, we lose an important nuance - probably "Arabian Nights" is the title most familiar with English-speaking readers, and indeed the article has in the past been known by that title. We do really need "often" rather than "also" here. As a general rule, few edits that makes text less specific are an improvement on the original.
2. The conventional English title is taken FROM the title of the first English-language edition. It is not identical - the "entertainment" bit was cut off. This what the original text says, pretty precisely. The modified text also says something fairly precise, but it is something different, and less accurate. Again - editing to make text "clearer" needs to be based on a full understanding of what existing text says. - Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:11, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
Arabian Tales, or continuations of Arabian Nights' Entertainments, translated from the French, 4 vols. 1792. Robert Heron.
/info/en/?search=Robert_Heron_(writer)
Should it be entered or is his publication not considered a true ANE? Just wondering
Just putting another note as I forgot to log in under my wikipedia name — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hanslune ( talk • contribs) 02:34, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
@ Tarook97: I don't know why you called this edit "arbitrary". It reflects the standard Arabic spelling and pronunciation of the title, and I'll now cite a standard reference. If you think that pointed vowels and formal case endings better reflect the body of RSs per WP:NPOV, please present sources to demonstrate it. Eperoton ( talk) 00:41, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Hi Viaros17, i would appreciate a clarification regarding these edits : [2] (removal of "one thousand and one nights" in Persian) and [3] (Shahriyar is a Persian name and is written in Persian, with the Perso-Arabic script of course, this is not an Arabic name). Thanks.--- Wikaviani ( talk) 20:50, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
When it comes to a Persian name it is better to write it with the two languages; because the language of the story is Arabic, and the origin of the name is Persian. So you cannot remove anyone of them.
هارون الرشيد العربي ( talk) 08:11, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
Changing something over and over again doesn't necessarily make it right. If you want to change something and someone else wants to keep the existing text, then it is up to you to justify your change. In general a section heading needs to be the simplest and most straightforward possible description of the section - this particular section has had this heading for a good while and has not been a bone of contention before now. So please justify this edit. A flat assertion that you are "correcting an error" obviously isn't enough. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 20:41, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
There is nothing whatever in the dictionary or ordinary use of the word "version" to support your assumption that it implies a "mere" or minor variation - take as an example the "Disneyfied version" of almost anything! "Versions" is of course the right word here - I am totally bemused by the idea that "transformations" would be better in any way. On the other hand do have a look at the heading as it is now ("Evolving Arabic versions") which might be thought to make the nature of the different versions clearer. (Frankly I don't - I much prefer the original, before this argument started!) -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 02:27, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
I noticed this article is being "classified" as an "arab culture" article. This is incorrect as the One Thousand and One Nights book is multi-cultural series of stories encapsulated by a Persian frame story. I think the Arab culture classification is misleading and should probably be removed. Xarhunter ( talk) 09:17, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Persian have no thing with Arab culture , and the official language of Islamic civilization was the Arabic. هارون الرشيد العربي ( talk) 07:54, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
As if it were necessary to defend this article yet again from another set of POV attacks! The scholarly consensus of the relationship between these two works has been well covered for many years and is not disputed by any reputable source (even, so far as I know, by an Iranian one). Not every article in an encyclopedia will ever please everyone - but Wikipedia rejects (as it must) every kind of unconfirmed personal opinion or prejudice. If we can't always find the full truth - especially as Hezār Afsān no longer actually exists (for whatever reason) and it is not possible to objectively assess exactly what relation it had to either the "Arabic" work (the subject of this article, for good or ill) or the Indian prototype - or, for that matter, what stories it might have contained. Any surmise claiming the consensus of scholars to be erroneous is totally beyond our brief here - if they are wrong then it is simply not our place to correct them off our own bat, replacing what is generally believed with something else - however much we want it to be so. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 02:38, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Before I edited the page, the two sentences around line 32 read: "Shahryār is shocked to learn that his brother's wife is unfaithful; discovering that his own wife's infidelity has been even more flagrant and he has her killed."
The informational content seems fine to me. However, "...discovering that his own wife's infidelity has been even more flagrant..." is a participial phrase that is clearly meant to refer to "he" in "...he has her killed." If this participial phrase is joined to "he has her killed" by "and", the whole thing becomes a dangling participial phrase, and lacks parallel construction, as well. These are, in my opinion, not obscure points of grammar (especially the former) and shouldn't need further citation.
Based on the edit history, it doesn't appear that my edit was specifically targeted for reversion, but was rather part of a sweeping change by the user. I suspect he/she may have saved his/her version, and merely copy/pasted it as part of the single edit. If so, I hope that he/she (and any other interested parties) will opt for a more "surgical" edit in the future.
I am currently engaged with an argument with an IP over at Scheherazade about the language tagging of the name Scheherazade. The article previously had it tagged as Arabic, but an IP changed it to Persian. This was reverted by another editor. Either the same or a different IP (the address keeps changing) then changing the name to no language and upon my reverting, claimed that I must prove that the name is Arabic. I would appreciate some outside input on the matter.-- Ermenrich ( talk) 21:57, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
Why is Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, etc EXCLUDED from the list once the list of the origins for the 1001 nights starts listing religions? Are those religious cultures assumed included by naming "India"? To mention one religious culture while excluding others is a glaring omission of facts.
The result of the move request was: not moved ( non-admin closure) ~SS49~ {talk} 01:37, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
Shouldn't One Thousand and One Nights redirect to Arabian Nights? Since this is English Wikipedia and Arabian Nights is what people call it in English, plus One Thousand and One Nights just sounds weird. Beevest ( talk) 01:09, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
One Thousand and One Nights → Arabian Nights – Arabian Nights is what it's called in English, and this is English Wikipedia. NightBag10 ( talk) 16:29, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
I felt article Islamic_literature is in bit of neglect so I added my note on talk page there, requesting to take note of Talk:Islamic_literature#Article_review. If possible requesting copy edit support. Suggestions for suitable reference sources at Talk:Islamic_literature is also welcome.
Posting message here too for neutrality sake
Thanks and greetings
Bookku ( talk) 08:00, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
It is absolutely striking how biased the English version of this article is! In particular the introduction. I invite the multilingual community to look at the other versions available and draw their own conclusions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.0.160.167 ( talk) 18:33, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
This work is (alas) long lost. The scholarly consensus, (not to mention a very long outstanding Wikipedia consensus) is pretty much as we have it here. Its relationship with the subject of this article is mentioned in the lead, as well as having its own section. The archives for this talk page have many pages of discussion as to whether we should give more emphasis than we do to the Persian background to the nights - the current text is in fact based on the sources (including the Encyclopedia Iranica) and a very long-standing consensus. Anyone wishing to raise NEW arguments please raise them here first - and they'd better be scholarly. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 22:58, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Editors supposing that the bare mention of this (English) title is somehow "biased" need to recognise that this is in fact the usual English name for the subject of the article. It is of course patently unscholarly - which is why strong pressure to actually rename the article has been stoutly resisted for so long, but surely we are allowed to mention it - if only so that our typical English reader will recognise he has found the article s/he is looking for. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 23:15, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
In all, the article is quite judicious in its subsections in conveying the inextricable pre-Islamic Persian origin of the work (a direct translation of Hezār Afsān or “1000 Tales”), as reflected in its literary style, tales, settings and characters (Shahrazad, Shahryar, Dunyazad, Ja'far, Zumurrud, Princess Paribanoo, Shah Zaman, Sindbad, Morgiana, King Yunan, Khusrau Parviz, Shirin, etc.). It later expounds on the idea that many of the tales were superficially modified to include Arab Islamic names and settings in place of pre-Islamic Persian ones (Ali Shar, Prince Ali, Prince Ahmed, etc.), and even many of the Abbasid-era characters who were later added particularly in the medieval Baghdad cluster are Persians, or their stories take place in Persia (Ja'far al-Barmaki, Ishaq al-Mawsili, Ibrahim al-Mawsili, Abu Nuwas, etc.). See: /info/en/?search=List_of_One_Thousand_and_One_Nights_characters
Indeed, the Nights bares a striking likeness to the vast compendium of secular Persian literature and prose which has no equivalent in the scant pre-modern Arabic literature, except for apparently this work from over a millennium before present (which again, was originally a translation of a Persian book). This is not, however, reflected in the introduction, which makes use of the imprecise term “Middle Eastern” (its only incidence in the article) and goes so far as to ascribe Greek, Turkish, and even Jewish pedigrees to the tales, which has no evidential basis or justification in any scholarship and, again, is not explained in the remainder of the Wikipedia article (indeed upon closer examination of the reference, the Marzolph book [1] merely uses the same sentence without providing any examples or justification.) Readers with even a rudimentary understanding of the region’s demographic history are immediately struck by the fact that Turkic tribes had not yet migrated from Central Asia/Siberia into the Near East when the original Persian and Abbasid versions were composed, and that implying an elusive Jewish presence in the Nights is nothing short of inane.
A more reasonable introduction would address the issue of the English moniker “Arabian Nights” being regarded as a misnomer, and in doing so acknowledge the disproportionate Persian provenance and nature of the Nights, which is addressed thoroughly using primary sources in the body of the article. If the moderators view relocating the etymologies of the two main characters Shahrzadeh and Shahryar from the synopsis section to the introduction (where they are first mentioned) or questioning flagrantly unfounded claims of Turkish, Greek, and Jewish presence in the Nights as “chauvinism”, I encourage them to reexamine their own biases in the way in which they subconsciously view this piece of literature-- that is, removed from the distorted Orientalist lens of Western historiography. 108.49.112.200 ( talk) 19:00, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
In searching for sources backing up the content in this article, I came across this webpage, which contains substantially similar content to this article. The earliest snapshot of the webpage on the Internet Archive is from 2016, which is much later than the content was added to Wikipedia. Judging from the editing history of the article, I believe the webpage has copied and pasted from Wikipedia rather than the other way around. I've added {{ Backwards copy}} to this talk page. Feel free to correct if I've made a mistake. MClay1 ( talk) 02:00, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
I am still in progress with a reference/citation format cleanup. —¿philoserf? ( talk) 13:12, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
Is it possible for the page to accept the digits with the word both combined as "1001 Nights". 137.59.221.36 ( talk) 20:00, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
1001 Nights has based itself in Baghdad and intends to tell stories that took place when the Islamosphere claimed its "Golden Age".
I have noticed that description of women characters are missing and that the romance that this page once presented has become absent. 137.59.221.36 ( talk) 20:03, 3 December 2021 (UTC)