This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
What cracks me up the most about this retarded debate about Persian vs. Arabic is that most of the stories that people are familiar with have European origins. Galland, Burton and others freely made up stories and shoved them into the collection at will. So your Persian/Arabic connection is really English, French and German mainly, with a few Persian and Arabic names and words tossed in for good "Oriental" mystique, which European readers loved during the 17th-18th centuries. The 9th century manuscript has only a few stories and the oldest Arabic version has only about 100 stories. The Persian collection called "Hazar Af Saneh" has never been found, though it was mentioned in the Fihrist of Al-Nadim, but only so much as the names of the 2 main characters. So before anyone goes crazy about whether it's Persian or whatever, do your research, go to the library, read books about the history of the 1001 Nights, anything, and unfortunately you'll see that most of the stories in there come from Europe. You will never find a first edition of the Nights because one does not exist. That is why they are so cool. stan goldsmith 18:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Why was my intro and timeline deleted? It was the most encyclopedic version of the collection? Especially the timeline. WTF??? Wikipedia just lost my contributions. I'm tired of putting in so much work just to have it deleted for no apparent reason. The 1001 Nights is the topic of my PHD diss, so I think I have some experience with researching it. You know what? Don't put them back up, they are now private content and I'm going to put the info on my own website. You guys can keep this shabby 4th grade version of something. stan goldsmith 21:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
stan goldsmith 18:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC) Wikipedia doesn't allow insertion of original research ( WP:NOR). - Marmoulak 22:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is Armand Phillips translation of Thousand and One Days cited as a translation of the Nights? The François_Pétis_de_la_Croix article suggests it is a 17th century Persian work by Derwish Moqlas. StephenEugeneTaylor ( talk) 16:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
This article says "townswoman"; the main wiki article about her says "of noble realm", and the linked article in Encyclopaedia Iranica says "of noble lineage" (with čeh rather than shah). Someone please research what it really is and insert a sourced explanation.-- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 18:34, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
The narrator's standards for what constitutes a cliffhanger seem broader than in modern literature. While in many cases a story is cut off with the hero in danger of losing his life or another kind of deep trouble, in some parts of the full text Scheherazade stops her narration in the middle of an exposition of abstract philosophical principles or complex points of Islamic philosophy, and in one case during a detailed description of human anatomy according to Galen—and in all these cases turns out to be justified in her belief that the king's curiosity about the sequel would buy her another day of life.
"The most beautifully written sentence I have ever read in my life." - Jonny Quick
Jonny Quick (
talk) 05:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC) Jonny Quick
As an outsider, reading an encyclopedia read "we have collected" in the opening paragraph, really confuses me. Who is we? An "I" included in that "we?" Probably not. But who is included then? Could "we" be replaced by "Persians?" Or "anthropologists?" "We" is far too ambiguous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.213.19.99 ( talk) 13:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
The following was posted to the editor's "message" page.
Thank you for your good faith edits to the above article.
The rationale for the versions of the "titles" mentioned in the first paragraph is as follows:
If you read through the discussion page you will notice that we have had a lot of arguments etc. around this and other aspects of the origins and content of this collection of folk tales. I do think we probably have the Arabic/Persian balance just about right - in particular the Persian aspects receive due weight in a number of different sections. This has been achieved in spite of attacks on the article by partisans for both the Arabic and the Persian "sides".
If you disagree, we would appreciate your bringing up any difficulties you may have with the text of this article on the "discussion" page, at least in the first instance - so that other interested editors may also have their input before we decide on any non-trivial changes. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 20:38, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
Do we really need every single language's version of the title of the 1001 Nights? Like Bulgarian? Can we delete all except for Arabic since the oldest existing book of stories was in Arabic? stan goldsmith 19:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, we are wikimedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.65.130 ( talk) 04:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
The backstory Characters names are definately Persian, I am not debating that. However, that in no way automatically transpires to; 1) Them being Persians themselves. 2) The backstory being of Persian origin.
This is because firstly because just prior to the Islamic conquest of Mesopotamia, it was under Persian rule. Many of the Arabs who resided there - especially of the Lakhmids who were under Persian influence and control and used against the Roman-influenced Ghassanids took up Persian names. Just as most Persians after the Islamic conquest took up Arabic names. How would anyone feel if I were to automatically claim Avicenna was Arabic due to his name only? Also, many of the Indian loyalty at the time (and even today) have Persian names, which again does not make them Persians. The backstory is also likely set in India.
Secondly, immediately before and during the Islamic conquest of Persia, it was still viewed with intrigue by most and the same is true of Arabian perception of India back then. This is similar to the romanticised orientalist view of India during British rule. It is most likely that the back story was Arabian in origin, but used Persian names to set it in India or Persia as Arabs viewed those places with intrigue and romanticism back then. This allowed for all the magicians, based loosely on Arabian misunderstanding and ignorance towards the Indian and Zoroastarian religious establishment at the time.
My point is that there is no definative proof that only because their names are Persian that it means they are automatically Persians themselves. Unless someone brings hard literary proof from the Arabian Nights or unbiased expert opinion, I am removing any mention of the characters in the backstory being Persian. Encyclopedia Iranica is a reliable source, though by definition, they will try to link as much things with Iranian culture in order to justify and allow for more articles. Unless their sources in turn are reliable and from the original manuscripts or from unbiased expert opinion, I will question their reliability and integrity in terms of my point here. There is far too much mention that their names are of Persian origin, but I will leave that in for the sake of all those Persian Nationalist racists out there.
Peace out. User:Nabuchadnessar ( talk) 14:33, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
1714 — The Thousand and One Days: Persian Tales by Ambrose Philips. The earliest English translation with an attributed author. - But isn't The Thousand and One Days something different than One Thousand and One Nights? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.44.231.132 ( talk) 17:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Giving a translation of the title The Thousand and One Nights in Persian alongside the Arabic is a violation of our policy on undue weight. Yes, the collection is believed to be based on a Persian prototype, but that was called Hezar Afsan (The Thousand Tales). The introduction already deals with this quite adequately. Hezar Afsan no longer exists and ideas about its contents are speculative. It did not bear the title Hezār-o yek šab. All existing versions of The Thousand and One Nights are based on the Arabic work bearing this title. This includes Persian translations of the collection. There is no reason why we should privilege Persian translations from the Arabic over any other language version. -- Folantin ( talk) 21:20, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
Soundofmusicals, Folantin is probably right. Giving the Persian title will fool the reader into the assumption that there is a historical Persian work known by this title. Based on what the article is aware so far, "Hezār Afsān" is a term used in the 11th century. If "Hezār-o yek šab" is a historical title of the work in some Persian version, the burden will lie on you to substantiate this with decent references. The "Persian origin" thing is already completely overblown in the article as it stands. This is not surprising, as Persian nationalism is one of the most persistent pests of the project. You would do well to keep this in mind every time you find some mention of "Persian" anywhere on the wiki. Chances are that such an article is periodically destroyed by expatriate Persian teenagers in an identity crisis. This is the internet, after all, you don't expect to meet nice people by default. -- dab (𒁳) 09:24, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
It took me two minutes to google this, and perhaps five more minutes to insert it into the article with proper references. So much time could be saved if people simply sat down and did some research instead of settling for a "dispute" on talk.
The title "Hezār-o yek šab" clearly forms part of topic (1.) above, not topic (2.). -- dab (𒁳) 09:40, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
I am unhappy with the way the lead is written. It simply does not give enough attention to the Persian origin of the work as it deserves: what does it mean that "[it] is a collection of Middle Eastern and South Asian stories and folk tales". I propose using the exact wording of Encyclopaedia of Islam (Three): page 30:
“A thousand nights
and one night,” is an oriental collection of stories that is constituted by a frame-tale focused on the narrator, Shahrazād, telling stories for a thousand nights. Derived from a pre-Islamic Iranian prototype that relied partly on Indian elements, the collection gained fame in the Western world by way of the French translation adapted from various Arabic sources and published by Antoine
Galland between 1704 and 1717.
I am going to change it accordingly. wikipedia follows RS. Xashaiar ( talk) 10:38, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Can we concentrate on the article instead of personal attacks against users and bringing up their nationality (which is against rulers of Wikipeda). Of course dab is a lasher (and sometimes has mistaken legitimate difference of opinion with nationalism due to a users background and this is unfortunate), but some people might be suprised by the strong Persian undercurrent to these stories. So I think his initial assumption about Xashaiar is wrong. And unlike what dab claims (11th century), this undercurrent is already mentioned in the early 10th century. Since Al-Masudi passed away in 956. Please see [3]: "The most ancient testimony to the existence of a collection of tales bearing this title is given by Masʿūdī (d. 345/956; see Morūǰ IV, p. 90; ed. Pellat, sec. 1416). He refers to work full of untrue stories translated from Persian, Sanskrit, and Greek, including the “book entitled Hazār afsāna, or the thousand tales, because a tale is called in Persian afsāna. This volume is known to the public under the title "One thousand and one nights;" it is the story of a king, his vizier, his daughter Šīrāzād, and her slave Dīnāzād.” " [4] So here is a 10th century source already connecting these two terms. I believe a detailed discussion of Hezar Afsan per the Iranica article is warranted. Also I will quote: "..The fact remains that the names of the three personages who played a principal part in the prologue are Iranian, and a fourth is an Iranian compound." and "Thus the theory which ascribes to the prologue and frame-story an Indo-Persian origin is no longer open to doubt; as for the tales of the collection, those have three different, though unequal, sources: Indian, Persian, and Arabic" [5]. I think there is a strong Persian component here (which dab probably did not know about), but I am not sure if there is any wikipedia rules dealing with foreign languages. At least the names of the characters which Iranian origin (note the baba in AliBaba is also Persian word and Indo-European cognate with Pap /Pope..). As long as all statements are sourced with WP:RS, there should be no problem. But I think the primary of Persian, Sanskrit and then Greek origin of the stories should be highlighted as do both the Encyclopaedia of Islam and Iranica. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 18:45, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
I've looked at the article by Dwight Reynolds in The Cambridge History of Arabic Literature Vol 6. (CUP 2006) p.270ff. He basically says that, judging by the references we have from al-Masudi, al-Nadim et al., the Persian Hazar afsan was the prototype for the Arabic version (some scholars believe there may have been even earlier Indian versions, but this is pure speculation). However, how much of the Persian prototype survives in the Arabic 1001 Nights we possess to day is another matter. Reynolds writes, "Once translated into Arabic, as al-Nadim notes, men of Arabic letters did indeed begin to make some emendations of their own. Some of the earlier Persian tales may have survived within the Arabic tradition altered such that Arabic Muslim names and new locations were substituted for pre-Islamic Persian ones, but it is also clear that whole cycles of Arabic tales were eventually added to the collection and apparently replaced most of the Persian materials. One such cycle of Arabic tales centres around a small group of historical figures from 9th-century Baghdad, including the caliph Harun al-Rashid (died 809), his vizier Jafar al-Barmaki (d.803) and the licentious poet Abu Nuwas (d. c. 813). Another cluster is a body of stories from late medieval Cairo in which are mentioned persons and places that date to as late as the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries." (Reynolds, p.271)-- Folantin ( talk) 10:29, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
It seems there are variety of opinions of the origin of the story. I disagree with the Cambridge source on several accounts: 1) lack of Indian origin stories.
2) The translation of Ibn Nadim provided by the author. 3) On the 'Iraqi cyle, it is attributed to a whole Arab culture while it seems to be at least a Hybrid culture. Harun ar-Rashid's mother was Iranian and he followed Pro-Persian policy. Barmak was the Vizier of the Abbassids and he was actually Persian. Then Abu Nuwas himself was of Iranian or partial Iranian origin. Baghdad itself is a Persian name. There was a strong Iranian element in Baghdad of the Abbassids.
However, my main point with Reyonld's translation is the usage of the word "Emendations" which is unclear, and could mean "change" or "correction". However, the Persian translation gives "Shaakh o Barg aan raa zadeh" and I believe it is more faithful to the Arabic original below. "Shaakh o Barg aan raa zadeh" literally means they pruned its branches and leaves. I found the original Arabic of Ibn al-Nadeem and it seems to be using the same expression (pruned): http://webtemp.idm.net.lb/al-hakawati/arabic/Civilizations/book15a28.asp قال محمد بن إسحاق أول من صنف الخرافات وجعل لها كتباً وأودعها الخزائن وجعل بعض ذلك على ألسنة الحيوان الفرس الأول ثم أغرق في ذلك ملوك الأشغانية وهم الطبقة الثالثة من ملوك الفرس ثم زاد ذلك واتسع في أيام ملوك الساسانية ونقلته العرب إلى اللغة العربية وتناوله الفصحاء والبلغاء فهذبوه ونمقوه وصنفوا في معناه ما يشبهه فأول كتاب عمل في هذا المعنى كتاب هزار أفسان ومعناه ألف خرافة وكان السبب في ذلك أن ملكاً من ملوكهم كان إذا تزوج امرأة وبات معها ليلة قتلها من الغد فتزوج بجارية من أولاد الملوك ممن لها عقل ودراية يقال لها شهرزاد فلما حصلت معه ابتدأت تخرفه وتصل الحديث عند انقضاء الليل بما يحمل الملك على استبقائها ويسألها في الليلة الثانية عن تمام الحديث ...
"They took it from the Persians and pruned it..." In other words emendation here should be more towards "correction" but not exactly. It means to prune.
I found another source: Robert L. Mack -, "Arabian night's entertainments",ford University Press, 1995 . "Al-Mas'udi's observations reinforce the suggestion that many of the stories in the 'Thousand Nights' are of Persian origin".
I tend to agree with Encyclopaedia Iranica on the three fold origins: A) an Indo-Persian section b) an 'Iraqi section c) An Egyptian section. On the cambridge Arabic source, I was not able to find this statement: "as al-Nadim notes, men of Arabic letters did indeed begin to make some emendations of their own" in the actual Arabic of al-Fihrist. Pellat's conclusion is of course more stronger than Reynolds: "Apart from the few tales used by novelists, poets, musicians, or script writers, the prologue of the Thousand and One Nights has exercised the greatest influence on occidental culture and through it on contemporary Arabic literature, which has sought in it a source of inspiration truly Arabic, even though the protagonists bear Persian names. Such exploitation is an indirect tribute to the Indo-Persian storytellers who provided the foundation for a monument long disdained by the Arabs and then revealed to the world by a West that has not yet finished taking delight in it." [6]
I did find "The Arabian nights Encyclopaedia" which states a different opinion though: "Taken together, these arguments do not constitute a definite proof for a Persian origin of the Arabian nights. On the other hand, they at least incidate the Persian material has been incorporated into the collection at certain phase of its developlment" [7]. Unfortunately, only page 672 of this whole Encyclopaedia on the topic shows up. It says on that page: "Apart from the frame of the story, love romances such as the stories of Ardashir and Hayat al-Nufus, and Taj al-Moluk and Dunya appear to be part of the Persian heritage rather than originating from the Arabic-Islamic source.. the same arguments..".
Overall, it seems there is no agreement though on this issue. We can definitely say the frame of the story is Persian (thousand nights, one story per night), and this is mentioned by Ibn Nadim. At the same time there was an 'Iraqi and Egyptian cycle added to the corpus of the current texts later on. It is too bad, the Hezar Afsaan has vanished (maybe it will be found in a library in some corner oneday), so some assertions become unprovable. But wether some of the tales are Persian, Arabian or Indian or etc. is much harder assertion to prove, although I did do a search for "Indian origin" and "Persian origin" in the Encyclopaedia of Arabian niughts and got some hits [8]. So Indian origin at least for some tales should not be discounted. Perhaps Xashaiar or someone can read page 666-671 in their local library. This seems like better source than Encyclopaedia of Islam or random articles, as it is a whole Encyclopaedia on the subject of "one Thousand and one Nights".. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 16:29, 25 June 2011 (UTC) Just a note freom Pellat: [9]. "But von Hammer’s scheme is to be preferred: the core corresponding to the Hazār afsān, translated at the latest in the 3rd/9th century; a group of tales added in Baghdad in the 4th/10th century; and another group added in Egypt ca. the 6th/12th century. Some of the original tales were eliminated during the two last phases. It is unlikely that the contents of Arabic origin could be due to a single Egyptian and a single Iraqi compiler (in spite of Jahšīārī’s 4th/10th century collection of Arabic, Persian, Greek, and other tales mentioned in the Fehrest, p. 304; tr. p. 714)."-- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 17:16, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Actually Reynold says, "as al-Nadim notes, men of Arabic letters did indeed begin to make some emendations of their own", but the word emendations is sort of ambigious. I am not dismissing any WP:RS source for usage in Wikipedia, but I think Reynolds dissmissing any Indian origin for the story and also attributing a statement to Ibn Nadeem which can be taken differently (I take it to mean "pruning"). On, 1984 is fairly recent, but I think Pellat's article is more thorough with respect to origin than Reynold's article. That is much more is devoted on the study of the origins of the story while Reynold's article talks more about the plots and less on origin. Of course both opinions are valid enough for Wikipedia, I just wanted to comment on Reynold's point and the portions I disagree with. It does not mean his points cannot be put in the article. I am just pointing out that the different opinions should be put in the article, but I tend to personally agree with Pellat's conclusion which meets WP:RS. It would be interesting to see what the Encyclopaedia of Arabian nights states on origin. I agree the work is a composite work, but the whole concept of these stories, prologue and frame has its roots in the Indo-Persian tradition as mentioned by Pellat: "Apart from the few tales used by novelists, poets, musicians, or script writers, the prologue of the Thousand and One Nights has exercised the greatest influence on occidental culture and through it on contemporary Arabic literature, which has sought in it a source of inspiration truly Arabic, even though the protagonists bear Persian names. Such exploitation is an indirect tribute to the Indo-Persian storytellers who provided the foundation for a monument long disdained by the Arabs and then revealed to the world by a West that has not yet finished taking delight in it.". This does not dismiss Arabian origin for many of the stories in the present volume. On Irwin's theory, if that is a concensus viewpoint, that should be mentioned. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 18:43, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
I pretty much agree with this conclusion, except that no one can really know the percentage of Indian, Arabic and Persian materials from the tales. I disagree with Reynold's comment (it does not mean he is not RS) on lack of anything Indian since other sources including Encyclopaedia of Islam mention a lot about Indian. And some could be a hybrid sources. I also found some additional sources which I believe are balanced as well. They are written by Arabic writers and Japanese writers respectively:
..It is certain that the Hazar Afsana supplied the popular title as well as the general schemes -- the frame story of Shahrazad and Shahrayar, and the division into nights -- to at least one such collection, namely "The Thousand and One Nights".
I.B.Tauris, 2006. pg 84:*We all know that the origin of this work was a translation into Arabic of a Persian storybook: Hazar Afsana, or "Thousand Tales.". In the medieval Arabic world, the work was extended by integrating many tales which had been made indepedently of it"
..etc.
Overall, I think we can agree that the frame of the story, prologue, origin and the main characters of the story are Persian (or with regards to the main characters have Persian names). Some names are composite like "'Ali Baba" (the Ali being Arabic and the Baba being Persian). However, what percentage of the tales from the original Indian and Persian sources are in the actual story, is not known. There are definitely some though [11] (Persian origin) and Indian origin [12] (city of Brass in Sanskrit literature). Pellat and Mcdolant seem to think the Perso-Indian elements are overwhelming while Reynolds or others are taking different viewpoints. To tell you the truth, we will never know.
I agree that the Persian name Hezar o Yek Shab seems recent. Iranica though redirects Hezar Afsan to its article 'Alfa... However, I think the current names and languages are acceptable. But the introduction needs some rework, specifically the word "probably". Also I think the 6 stage evolution mentioned by one of the sources I brought would be a good topic to include in the article. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 16:54, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:KizkulesiminiatureNusretColpan.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Other speedy deletions
Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 10:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC) |
Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with imaginary but more or less plausible (or at least non-supernatural) content such as future settings, futuristic science and technology, space travel, aliens, and paranormal abilities. Exploring the consequences of scientific innovations is one purpose of science fiction, making it a "literature of ideas". Science fiction is largely based on writing rationally about alternative possible worlds or futures.[2] It is similar to, but differs from, fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation).-- Wikipedia, article on Science fiction.
It therefore seems to me that the heading 'Science fiction elements" is erroneous, and at least some, and probably all, of the matters considered under that heading should be under a 'Fantasy Elements' heading instead. I see nothing in the 1001 Nights that is derived from 'scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws'. 24.27.31.170 ( talk) 02:49, 11 September 2011 (UTC) Eric
It seems that I am forbidden to touch the page! fine.. can you make it clear that the "Kitab" means book? (Kitāb alf laylah wa-laylah) means "book of One Thousand and One Nights".. one last thing i reall don't want to engage in controversy (and my english doesn't help me!) therefore, please be flexible.. my request is very simple, Thanks in advance -- Σύμμαχος ( talk) 06:44, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
I actually can't remember a specific story in the Nights with a magic carpet - although Disney sneaked one into their (per)version of Aladdin (which is not a real "Nights" story anyway!!). In any case the (nice) magic carpet graphic was at best misplaced. If someone badly wants to put it back - please find a story it relaltes to and put it in a more appropraite place in the article. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:07, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Recently Soundofmusicals has put up an intolerant and irrelevant argumentation regarding the existence of Flying Carpets in the 1001 Nights...well FYI:
The flying carpet is indeed one of the most enduring images in 1001 Nights and it is affiliated with many stories, and traditionally Prince Housain in the story of "The Three Brothers" is the one and only person to fly on a magic carpet in the collection of stories from the 1001 Nights. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
This answers the stubborn edit conflict and the odd question put up and aggressively placed by Soundofmusicals... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.182.47.117 ( talk) 01:23, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
It is mentioned in the following references that: "The wind took up the Flying Carpet and transported it (gliding through the air)"...
In another place it says: "Prince Ahmad buys a Flying Carpet and together with his brothers they fly to the aid of a dying Princess"...
This Magic Carpet had the special property of transporting whoever sits on it from one place to another...Prince Husain's enchanted Flying Carpet can transport the person standing upon it to any place he desires, just like the Flying Carpet of Solomon son of David...
The Muslim story of Solomon son of David's Flying Carpet was the main inspiration behind the Flying Carpet of Prince Housain.
Prince Housain's Magic Carpet hastened to her (Princess) therefore it moved by itself...it naver Teleported at all... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.182.119.244 ( talk) 12:14, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Carpet The magic carpet of Tangu. A carpet to all appearances worthless, but if anyone sat thereon, it would transport him instantaneously to the place he wished to go. So called because it came from Tangu, in Persia. It is sometimes termed Prince Housain's carpet, because it came into his hands, and he made use of it. ( Arabian Nights: Prince Ahmed.) (-- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:37, 27 April 2012 (UTC))
Teleportation via Magic Carpet is not mentioned anywhere in the 1001 Nights, in fact only Jinn's have the ability to do that, not the Flying Carpet of Prince Hussain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.182.119.244 ( talk) 12:09, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
These are quite possibly both right as transliterations from the Persian, as there are a number of different transliteration schemes around (not to mention the odd ambiguity, even within the one scheme).
The point is - changing from one to the other needs some consultation - since some quite scholarly editors have been at this one, "Hazar" is evidently the one in the sources they have used - and we'd need a good and sufficient reason, and possibly a consensus, to change it. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 09:30, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
The Nights ARE firmly associated with countries that happen to have Muslim majorities - how much this makes them part of "Islamic culture" is a bit debatable however. The so called "Persian prototype" dates from a time when Persia was still Zoroastrian, for instance - while the Indian roots of many of the tales have a Hindu background. Finally - the "fairy tale morality" of many of the tales is certainly not consistent with Islamic values (or those of any other religion for that matter). It would be different if it were a collection of religious parables or moral fables. But what do others think? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:12, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
The claim that the work contains Turkish influence is simply wrong. It has an ancient Indian basis which was later collected in a Persian tradition. That Persian tradition was enriched and Arabized, adding to it folktales from Egypt and Arabia. There is no Turkish influence. First of all, because Turkish literature did not exist back then. And secondly, because it was written and finished in an era and in a region, when Turkish had no influence or importance yet. The caliphate was slowly beginning to integrate Turkish slave soldiers into the royal army. If anyone claims otherwise, please support it with reliable sources. Which element of 1001 is supposed to be of Turkish origin or has been influence by Turkish?! -- Lysozym ( talk) 14:05, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
I actually argued FOR the retention of a Persian language name for the nights when we had the discussion that established the current consensus - I was however convinced by the arguments of people who obviously knew far more about the matter than I do. The Persian work Hazār Afsān (or Hezār Afsān?) ( Persian: هزار افسان, lit. A Thousand Tales) is in fact another work, which is mentioned both in the lead, and in its own section in the article. However much (or little) this work (alas, lost to us) influenced or fore-shadowed the "Nights" which are the subject of the article is not the point, the fact remains that this is NOT the name of any existing version of the subject of this article. As for Hezār-o yak šab - this is not the name of the (lost) Persian story collection, but that given to (modern) Persian translations of the Arabic version.
But, as the article, with great circumspection, reference to scholarly references, and, to be quite fair, a complete lack or chauvinism, makes abundantly clear, the story collection as we have it is an Arabic work. There is no precedent for including any name for a foreign language work in English Wikipedia other than the original name, and the English name. It really is as simple as that. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 00:57, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
The article admits Arabian Nights is the more common english name of the collection. And the sources also seem to use "Arabian Nights" so i propose renaming it to "Arabian Nights" per WP:COMMONNAME. Lucia Black ( talk) 10:55, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Im torn at your reasoning of how NPOV works and show many exceptions to get around WP:COMMONNAME. This isnt about my opinion on whats based non-nuetral, its wikipedia's policy. WP:NPOV if anything your "opinion" on how NPOV works seems to go "against" it. And a title used to avoid racism while may be more bias to think so if they arent familiar with WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NPOV. On a lighter note, Barns and Noble is selling a more recent edition of the book as "arabian Nights". Im just sticking with policy and with information already given. Lucia Black ( talk) 15:03, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Definitely my last word - I really want to step back from this whole question, and I think you should do the same. There is very obviously no pressing need for this article to be renamed - and unless the is a consensus that the current title is inappropriate in some way it sould probably stay as it is (consensus is important in Wiki - since we are never all going to agree about everything).
This time I will put my most important argument - and one you have NOT answered that I can see first.
1. Both titles fulfil the conditions of WP:COMMON quite well. They are BOTH often used in the sources - in fact very often in a double-barrelled way (like 1001 Nights, often called the Arabian Nights - OR Arabian nights - also often called the 1001 nights). Neither title is unusual, or esoteric, or strange in any way - neither is either too academic, or too popular - although we may or may not see one or the other as more academic or more popular this is not reflected consistently in the sources. Hence for instance it is possible to find "popular" sources using "1001 nights" and academic ones using "Arabian nights".
2. One drawback of the title "Arabian Nights" is very simply the emphasis it gives to the "Arabian" (Arab, Arabic) side of the collection's origins. There is a POV (or point of view) out there that this is unfair to various other threads in the origins of the story (read the article itself if you don't already have a clear idea of how complicated the origins are in fact - and how different scholars have differed). There are users out there who see the title "Arabian Nights" as a bull sees a red rag - and even go so far as to edit it out of the article altogether! I hesitated to point you at the posts where we argued through this one (they are archived now) because a good deal of the arguments were most unedifying, but it might be an idea for you to get a clear idea of what is involved. No one (not even they themselves) would say that their' point of view is a neutral one of course - but it is a POV. NPOV tries to "balance" POVs (without giving undue weight to any that are patently silly). But who is to say who is silly? Especially when different legitimate sources do in fact differ? In the context of point #1 above (neither title is really ruled out by WP:COMMON) it does make sense not to pre-empt the question "how Arabian are the Nights" - by using instead a more "Neutral" title. The question itself is of course covered by several sections of the article.
3. ESPECIALLY when, after all, "1001 nights" is the strictly "correct" title anyway! (i.e. a literal translation of the title in Arabic) - AND to partly recap argument #1 - it is at worst a close runner up in the "most common title" stakes - certainly it is not in any way estoteric or strange.
This is the same argument I have already given in several quite long posts - I am MOST definitely not going to boil my cabbages again, sorry. If you have not come to agree with me that it is your own argument that is "flawed" then that's fine - but we have (really) to step back and let a consensus of other users decide. Do remember that the only question is "does the current title remain an appropriate one - and if not why not? "Broader issues" are best raised in a broader sense - like "How appropriate are some of the clauses of WP:COMMON?" An entirely different question of course. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 10:32, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Richard ruffian ( talk) 22:50, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
hi, i'm a iranian, so i can speek persian
you should know something: 'Hazar' is incorrect. the correct Pronunciation is 'Hezar' or هزار
hezar meaning Thousand in persian
how many times you read this book?
هزار و یک شب meanings One Thousand and One Nights
but (Arabic: كتاب ألف ليلة وليلة) hasn't mean One Thousand and One Nights
كتاب ألف ليلة وليلة ≠ One Thousand and One Nights ?[hi i'm arab, and (كتاب ألف ليلة وليلة) means in arabic "The book of one Thousand and One Nights", and (ألف ليلة وليلة) means "one Thousand and One Nights", and sorry i don't know how to use this thing (editing talk).
هزار و یک شب = One Thousand and One Nights
forgive me. i can't speek english vey well — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.122.221.113 ( talk) 13:39, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
What cracks me up the most about this retarded debate about Persian vs. Arabic is that most of the stories that people are familiar with have European origins. Galland, Burton and others freely made up stories and shoved them into the collection at will. So your Persian/Arabic connection is really English, French and German mainly, with a few Persian and Arabic names and words tossed in for good "Oriental" mystique, which European readers loved during the 17th-18th centuries. The 9th century manuscript has only a few stories and the oldest Arabic version has only about 100 stories. The Persian collection called "Hazar Af Saneh" has never been found, though it was mentioned in the Fihrist of Al-Nadim, but only so much as the names of the 2 main characters. So before anyone goes crazy about whether it's Persian or whatever, do your research, go to the library, read books about the history of the 1001 Nights, anything, and unfortunately you'll see that most of the stories in there come from Europe. You will never find a first edition of the Nights because one does not exist. That is why they are so cool. stan goldsmith 18:02, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Why was my intro and timeline deleted? It was the most encyclopedic version of the collection? Especially the timeline. WTF??? Wikipedia just lost my contributions. I'm tired of putting in so much work just to have it deleted for no apparent reason. The 1001 Nights is the topic of my PHD diss, so I think I have some experience with researching it. You know what? Don't put them back up, they are now private content and I'm going to put the info on my own website. You guys can keep this shabby 4th grade version of something. stan goldsmith 21:11, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
stan goldsmith 18:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC) Wikipedia doesn't allow insertion of original research ( WP:NOR). - Marmoulak 22:44, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is Armand Phillips translation of Thousand and One Days cited as a translation of the Nights? The François_Pétis_de_la_Croix article suggests it is a 17th century Persian work by Derwish Moqlas. StephenEugeneTaylor ( talk) 16:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
This article says "townswoman"; the main wiki article about her says "of noble realm", and the linked article in Encyclopaedia Iranica says "of noble lineage" (with čeh rather than shah). Someone please research what it really is and insert a sourced explanation.-- 91.148.159.4 ( talk) 18:34, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
The narrator's standards for what constitutes a cliffhanger seem broader than in modern literature. While in many cases a story is cut off with the hero in danger of losing his life or another kind of deep trouble, in some parts of the full text Scheherazade stops her narration in the middle of an exposition of abstract philosophical principles or complex points of Islamic philosophy, and in one case during a detailed description of human anatomy according to Galen—and in all these cases turns out to be justified in her belief that the king's curiosity about the sequel would buy her another day of life.
"The most beautifully written sentence I have ever read in my life." - Jonny Quick
Jonny Quick (
talk) 05:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC) Jonny Quick
As an outsider, reading an encyclopedia read "we have collected" in the opening paragraph, really confuses me. Who is we? An "I" included in that "we?" Probably not. But who is included then? Could "we" be replaced by "Persians?" Or "anthropologists?" "We" is far too ambiguous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.213.19.99 ( talk) 13:29, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
The following was posted to the editor's "message" page.
Thank you for your good faith edits to the above article.
The rationale for the versions of the "titles" mentioned in the first paragraph is as follows:
If you read through the discussion page you will notice that we have had a lot of arguments etc. around this and other aspects of the origins and content of this collection of folk tales. I do think we probably have the Arabic/Persian balance just about right - in particular the Persian aspects receive due weight in a number of different sections. This has been achieved in spite of attacks on the article by partisans for both the Arabic and the Persian "sides".
If you disagree, we would appreciate your bringing up any difficulties you may have with the text of this article on the "discussion" page, at least in the first instance - so that other interested editors may also have their input before we decide on any non-trivial changes. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 20:38, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
Do we really need every single language's version of the title of the 1001 Nights? Like Bulgarian? Can we delete all except for Arabic since the oldest existing book of stories was in Arabic? stan goldsmith 19:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, we are wikimedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.65.130 ( talk) 04:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
The backstory Characters names are definately Persian, I am not debating that. However, that in no way automatically transpires to; 1) Them being Persians themselves. 2) The backstory being of Persian origin.
This is because firstly because just prior to the Islamic conquest of Mesopotamia, it was under Persian rule. Many of the Arabs who resided there - especially of the Lakhmids who were under Persian influence and control and used against the Roman-influenced Ghassanids took up Persian names. Just as most Persians after the Islamic conquest took up Arabic names. How would anyone feel if I were to automatically claim Avicenna was Arabic due to his name only? Also, many of the Indian loyalty at the time (and even today) have Persian names, which again does not make them Persians. The backstory is also likely set in India.
Secondly, immediately before and during the Islamic conquest of Persia, it was still viewed with intrigue by most and the same is true of Arabian perception of India back then. This is similar to the romanticised orientalist view of India during British rule. It is most likely that the back story was Arabian in origin, but used Persian names to set it in India or Persia as Arabs viewed those places with intrigue and romanticism back then. This allowed for all the magicians, based loosely on Arabian misunderstanding and ignorance towards the Indian and Zoroastarian religious establishment at the time.
My point is that there is no definative proof that only because their names are Persian that it means they are automatically Persians themselves. Unless someone brings hard literary proof from the Arabian Nights or unbiased expert opinion, I am removing any mention of the characters in the backstory being Persian. Encyclopedia Iranica is a reliable source, though by definition, they will try to link as much things with Iranian culture in order to justify and allow for more articles. Unless their sources in turn are reliable and from the original manuscripts or from unbiased expert opinion, I will question their reliability and integrity in terms of my point here. There is far too much mention that their names are of Persian origin, but I will leave that in for the sake of all those Persian Nationalist racists out there.
Peace out. User:Nabuchadnessar ( talk) 14:33, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
1714 — The Thousand and One Days: Persian Tales by Ambrose Philips. The earliest English translation with an attributed author. - But isn't The Thousand and One Days something different than One Thousand and One Nights? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.44.231.132 ( talk) 17:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Giving a translation of the title The Thousand and One Nights in Persian alongside the Arabic is a violation of our policy on undue weight. Yes, the collection is believed to be based on a Persian prototype, but that was called Hezar Afsan (The Thousand Tales). The introduction already deals with this quite adequately. Hezar Afsan no longer exists and ideas about its contents are speculative. It did not bear the title Hezār-o yek šab. All existing versions of The Thousand and One Nights are based on the Arabic work bearing this title. This includes Persian translations of the collection. There is no reason why we should privilege Persian translations from the Arabic over any other language version. -- Folantin ( talk) 21:20, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
Soundofmusicals, Folantin is probably right. Giving the Persian title will fool the reader into the assumption that there is a historical Persian work known by this title. Based on what the article is aware so far, "Hezār Afsān" is a term used in the 11th century. If "Hezār-o yek šab" is a historical title of the work in some Persian version, the burden will lie on you to substantiate this with decent references. The "Persian origin" thing is already completely overblown in the article as it stands. This is not surprising, as Persian nationalism is one of the most persistent pests of the project. You would do well to keep this in mind every time you find some mention of "Persian" anywhere on the wiki. Chances are that such an article is periodically destroyed by expatriate Persian teenagers in an identity crisis. This is the internet, after all, you don't expect to meet nice people by default. -- dab (𒁳) 09:24, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
It took me two minutes to google this, and perhaps five more minutes to insert it into the article with proper references. So much time could be saved if people simply sat down and did some research instead of settling for a "dispute" on talk.
The title "Hezār-o yek šab" clearly forms part of topic (1.) above, not topic (2.). -- dab (𒁳) 09:40, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
I am unhappy with the way the lead is written. It simply does not give enough attention to the Persian origin of the work as it deserves: what does it mean that "[it] is a collection of Middle Eastern and South Asian stories and folk tales". I propose using the exact wording of Encyclopaedia of Islam (Three): page 30:
“A thousand nights
and one night,” is an oriental collection of stories that is constituted by a frame-tale focused on the narrator, Shahrazād, telling stories for a thousand nights. Derived from a pre-Islamic Iranian prototype that relied partly on Indian elements, the collection gained fame in the Western world by way of the French translation adapted from various Arabic sources and published by Antoine
Galland between 1704 and 1717.
I am going to change it accordingly. wikipedia follows RS. Xashaiar ( talk) 10:38, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Can we concentrate on the article instead of personal attacks against users and bringing up their nationality (which is against rulers of Wikipeda). Of course dab is a lasher (and sometimes has mistaken legitimate difference of opinion with nationalism due to a users background and this is unfortunate), but some people might be suprised by the strong Persian undercurrent to these stories. So I think his initial assumption about Xashaiar is wrong. And unlike what dab claims (11th century), this undercurrent is already mentioned in the early 10th century. Since Al-Masudi passed away in 956. Please see [3]: "The most ancient testimony to the existence of a collection of tales bearing this title is given by Masʿūdī (d. 345/956; see Morūǰ IV, p. 90; ed. Pellat, sec. 1416). He refers to work full of untrue stories translated from Persian, Sanskrit, and Greek, including the “book entitled Hazār afsāna, or the thousand tales, because a tale is called in Persian afsāna. This volume is known to the public under the title "One thousand and one nights;" it is the story of a king, his vizier, his daughter Šīrāzād, and her slave Dīnāzād.” " [4] So here is a 10th century source already connecting these two terms. I believe a detailed discussion of Hezar Afsan per the Iranica article is warranted. Also I will quote: "..The fact remains that the names of the three personages who played a principal part in the prologue are Iranian, and a fourth is an Iranian compound." and "Thus the theory which ascribes to the prologue and frame-story an Indo-Persian origin is no longer open to doubt; as for the tales of the collection, those have three different, though unequal, sources: Indian, Persian, and Arabic" [5]. I think there is a strong Persian component here (which dab probably did not know about), but I am not sure if there is any wikipedia rules dealing with foreign languages. At least the names of the characters which Iranian origin (note the baba in AliBaba is also Persian word and Indo-European cognate with Pap /Pope..). As long as all statements are sourced with WP:RS, there should be no problem. But I think the primary of Persian, Sanskrit and then Greek origin of the stories should be highlighted as do both the Encyclopaedia of Islam and Iranica. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 18:45, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
I've looked at the article by Dwight Reynolds in The Cambridge History of Arabic Literature Vol 6. (CUP 2006) p.270ff. He basically says that, judging by the references we have from al-Masudi, al-Nadim et al., the Persian Hazar afsan was the prototype for the Arabic version (some scholars believe there may have been even earlier Indian versions, but this is pure speculation). However, how much of the Persian prototype survives in the Arabic 1001 Nights we possess to day is another matter. Reynolds writes, "Once translated into Arabic, as al-Nadim notes, men of Arabic letters did indeed begin to make some emendations of their own. Some of the earlier Persian tales may have survived within the Arabic tradition altered such that Arabic Muslim names and new locations were substituted for pre-Islamic Persian ones, but it is also clear that whole cycles of Arabic tales were eventually added to the collection and apparently replaced most of the Persian materials. One such cycle of Arabic tales centres around a small group of historical figures from 9th-century Baghdad, including the caliph Harun al-Rashid (died 809), his vizier Jafar al-Barmaki (d.803) and the licentious poet Abu Nuwas (d. c. 813). Another cluster is a body of stories from late medieval Cairo in which are mentioned persons and places that date to as late as the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries." (Reynolds, p.271)-- Folantin ( talk) 10:29, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
It seems there are variety of opinions of the origin of the story. I disagree with the Cambridge source on several accounts: 1) lack of Indian origin stories.
2) The translation of Ibn Nadim provided by the author. 3) On the 'Iraqi cyle, it is attributed to a whole Arab culture while it seems to be at least a Hybrid culture. Harun ar-Rashid's mother was Iranian and he followed Pro-Persian policy. Barmak was the Vizier of the Abbassids and he was actually Persian. Then Abu Nuwas himself was of Iranian or partial Iranian origin. Baghdad itself is a Persian name. There was a strong Iranian element in Baghdad of the Abbassids.
However, my main point with Reyonld's translation is the usage of the word "Emendations" which is unclear, and could mean "change" or "correction". However, the Persian translation gives "Shaakh o Barg aan raa zadeh" and I believe it is more faithful to the Arabic original below. "Shaakh o Barg aan raa zadeh" literally means they pruned its branches and leaves. I found the original Arabic of Ibn al-Nadeem and it seems to be using the same expression (pruned): http://webtemp.idm.net.lb/al-hakawati/arabic/Civilizations/book15a28.asp قال محمد بن إسحاق أول من صنف الخرافات وجعل لها كتباً وأودعها الخزائن وجعل بعض ذلك على ألسنة الحيوان الفرس الأول ثم أغرق في ذلك ملوك الأشغانية وهم الطبقة الثالثة من ملوك الفرس ثم زاد ذلك واتسع في أيام ملوك الساسانية ونقلته العرب إلى اللغة العربية وتناوله الفصحاء والبلغاء فهذبوه ونمقوه وصنفوا في معناه ما يشبهه فأول كتاب عمل في هذا المعنى كتاب هزار أفسان ومعناه ألف خرافة وكان السبب في ذلك أن ملكاً من ملوكهم كان إذا تزوج امرأة وبات معها ليلة قتلها من الغد فتزوج بجارية من أولاد الملوك ممن لها عقل ودراية يقال لها شهرزاد فلما حصلت معه ابتدأت تخرفه وتصل الحديث عند انقضاء الليل بما يحمل الملك على استبقائها ويسألها في الليلة الثانية عن تمام الحديث ...
"They took it from the Persians and pruned it..." In other words emendation here should be more towards "correction" but not exactly. It means to prune.
I found another source: Robert L. Mack -, "Arabian night's entertainments",ford University Press, 1995 . "Al-Mas'udi's observations reinforce the suggestion that many of the stories in the 'Thousand Nights' are of Persian origin".
I tend to agree with Encyclopaedia Iranica on the three fold origins: A) an Indo-Persian section b) an 'Iraqi section c) An Egyptian section. On the cambridge Arabic source, I was not able to find this statement: "as al-Nadim notes, men of Arabic letters did indeed begin to make some emendations of their own" in the actual Arabic of al-Fihrist. Pellat's conclusion is of course more stronger than Reynolds: "Apart from the few tales used by novelists, poets, musicians, or script writers, the prologue of the Thousand and One Nights has exercised the greatest influence on occidental culture and through it on contemporary Arabic literature, which has sought in it a source of inspiration truly Arabic, even though the protagonists bear Persian names. Such exploitation is an indirect tribute to the Indo-Persian storytellers who provided the foundation for a monument long disdained by the Arabs and then revealed to the world by a West that has not yet finished taking delight in it." [6]
I did find "The Arabian nights Encyclopaedia" which states a different opinion though: "Taken together, these arguments do not constitute a definite proof for a Persian origin of the Arabian nights. On the other hand, they at least incidate the Persian material has been incorporated into the collection at certain phase of its developlment" [7]. Unfortunately, only page 672 of this whole Encyclopaedia on the topic shows up. It says on that page: "Apart from the frame of the story, love romances such as the stories of Ardashir and Hayat al-Nufus, and Taj al-Moluk and Dunya appear to be part of the Persian heritage rather than originating from the Arabic-Islamic source.. the same arguments..".
Overall, it seems there is no agreement though on this issue. We can definitely say the frame of the story is Persian (thousand nights, one story per night), and this is mentioned by Ibn Nadim. At the same time there was an 'Iraqi and Egyptian cycle added to the corpus of the current texts later on. It is too bad, the Hezar Afsaan has vanished (maybe it will be found in a library in some corner oneday), so some assertions become unprovable. But wether some of the tales are Persian, Arabian or Indian or etc. is much harder assertion to prove, although I did do a search for "Indian origin" and "Persian origin" in the Encyclopaedia of Arabian niughts and got some hits [8]. So Indian origin at least for some tales should not be discounted. Perhaps Xashaiar or someone can read page 666-671 in their local library. This seems like better source than Encyclopaedia of Islam or random articles, as it is a whole Encyclopaedia on the subject of "one Thousand and one Nights".. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 16:29, 25 June 2011 (UTC) Just a note freom Pellat: [9]. "But von Hammer’s scheme is to be preferred: the core corresponding to the Hazār afsān, translated at the latest in the 3rd/9th century; a group of tales added in Baghdad in the 4th/10th century; and another group added in Egypt ca. the 6th/12th century. Some of the original tales were eliminated during the two last phases. It is unlikely that the contents of Arabic origin could be due to a single Egyptian and a single Iraqi compiler (in spite of Jahšīārī’s 4th/10th century collection of Arabic, Persian, Greek, and other tales mentioned in the Fehrest, p. 304; tr. p. 714)."-- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 17:16, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Actually Reynold says, "as al-Nadim notes, men of Arabic letters did indeed begin to make some emendations of their own", but the word emendations is sort of ambigious. I am not dismissing any WP:RS source for usage in Wikipedia, but I think Reynolds dissmissing any Indian origin for the story and also attributing a statement to Ibn Nadeem which can be taken differently (I take it to mean "pruning"). On, 1984 is fairly recent, but I think Pellat's article is more thorough with respect to origin than Reynold's article. That is much more is devoted on the study of the origins of the story while Reynold's article talks more about the plots and less on origin. Of course both opinions are valid enough for Wikipedia, I just wanted to comment on Reynold's point and the portions I disagree with. It does not mean his points cannot be put in the article. I am just pointing out that the different opinions should be put in the article, but I tend to personally agree with Pellat's conclusion which meets WP:RS. It would be interesting to see what the Encyclopaedia of Arabian nights states on origin. I agree the work is a composite work, but the whole concept of these stories, prologue and frame has its roots in the Indo-Persian tradition as mentioned by Pellat: "Apart from the few tales used by novelists, poets, musicians, or script writers, the prologue of the Thousand and One Nights has exercised the greatest influence on occidental culture and through it on contemporary Arabic literature, which has sought in it a source of inspiration truly Arabic, even though the protagonists bear Persian names. Such exploitation is an indirect tribute to the Indo-Persian storytellers who provided the foundation for a monument long disdained by the Arabs and then revealed to the world by a West that has not yet finished taking delight in it.". This does not dismiss Arabian origin for many of the stories in the present volume. On Irwin's theory, if that is a concensus viewpoint, that should be mentioned. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 18:43, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
I pretty much agree with this conclusion, except that no one can really know the percentage of Indian, Arabic and Persian materials from the tales. I disagree with Reynold's comment (it does not mean he is not RS) on lack of anything Indian since other sources including Encyclopaedia of Islam mention a lot about Indian. And some could be a hybrid sources. I also found some additional sources which I believe are balanced as well. They are written by Arabic writers and Japanese writers respectively:
..It is certain that the Hazar Afsana supplied the popular title as well as the general schemes -- the frame story of Shahrazad and Shahrayar, and the division into nights -- to at least one such collection, namely "The Thousand and One Nights".
I.B.Tauris, 2006. pg 84:*We all know that the origin of this work was a translation into Arabic of a Persian storybook: Hazar Afsana, or "Thousand Tales.". In the medieval Arabic world, the work was extended by integrating many tales which had been made indepedently of it"
..etc.
Overall, I think we can agree that the frame of the story, prologue, origin and the main characters of the story are Persian (or with regards to the main characters have Persian names). Some names are composite like "'Ali Baba" (the Ali being Arabic and the Baba being Persian). However, what percentage of the tales from the original Indian and Persian sources are in the actual story, is not known. There are definitely some though [11] (Persian origin) and Indian origin [12] (city of Brass in Sanskrit literature). Pellat and Mcdolant seem to think the Perso-Indian elements are overwhelming while Reynolds or others are taking different viewpoints. To tell you the truth, we will never know.
I agree that the Persian name Hezar o Yek Shab seems recent. Iranica though redirects Hezar Afsan to its article 'Alfa... However, I think the current names and languages are acceptable. But the introduction needs some rework, specifically the word "probably". Also I think the 6 stage evolution mentioned by one of the sources I brought would be a good topic to include in the article. -- Khodabandeh14 ( talk) 16:54, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:KizkulesiminiatureNusretColpan.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Other speedy deletions
Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 10:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC) |
Science fiction is a genre of fiction dealing with imaginary but more or less plausible (or at least non-supernatural) content such as future settings, futuristic science and technology, space travel, aliens, and paranormal abilities. Exploring the consequences of scientific innovations is one purpose of science fiction, making it a "literature of ideas". Science fiction is largely based on writing rationally about alternative possible worlds or futures.[2] It is similar to, but differs from, fantasy in that, within the context of the story, its imaginary elements are largely possible within scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws of nature (though some elements in a story might still be pure imaginative speculation).-- Wikipedia, article on Science fiction.
It therefore seems to me that the heading 'Science fiction elements" is erroneous, and at least some, and probably all, of the matters considered under that heading should be under a 'Fantasy Elements' heading instead. I see nothing in the 1001 Nights that is derived from 'scientifically established or scientifically postulated laws'. 24.27.31.170 ( talk) 02:49, 11 September 2011 (UTC) Eric
It seems that I am forbidden to touch the page! fine.. can you make it clear that the "Kitab" means book? (Kitāb alf laylah wa-laylah) means "book of One Thousand and One Nights".. one last thing i reall don't want to engage in controversy (and my english doesn't help me!) therefore, please be flexible.. my request is very simple, Thanks in advance -- Σύμμαχος ( talk) 06:44, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
I actually can't remember a specific story in the Nights with a magic carpet - although Disney sneaked one into their (per)version of Aladdin (which is not a real "Nights" story anyway!!). In any case the (nice) magic carpet graphic was at best misplaced. If someone badly wants to put it back - please find a story it relaltes to and put it in a more appropraite place in the article. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:07, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Recently Soundofmusicals has put up an intolerant and irrelevant argumentation regarding the existence of Flying Carpets in the 1001 Nights...well FYI:
The flying carpet is indeed one of the most enduring images in 1001 Nights and it is affiliated with many stories, and traditionally Prince Housain in the story of "The Three Brothers" is the one and only person to fly on a magic carpet in the collection of stories from the 1001 Nights. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
This answers the stubborn edit conflict and the odd question put up and aggressively placed by Soundofmusicals... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.182.47.117 ( talk) 01:23, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
It is mentioned in the following references that: "The wind took up the Flying Carpet and transported it (gliding through the air)"...
In another place it says: "Prince Ahmad buys a Flying Carpet and together with his brothers they fly to the aid of a dying Princess"...
This Magic Carpet had the special property of transporting whoever sits on it from one place to another...Prince Husain's enchanted Flying Carpet can transport the person standing upon it to any place he desires, just like the Flying Carpet of Solomon son of David...
The Muslim story of Solomon son of David's Flying Carpet was the main inspiration behind the Flying Carpet of Prince Housain.
Prince Housain's Magic Carpet hastened to her (Princess) therefore it moved by itself...it naver Teleported at all... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.182.119.244 ( talk) 12:14, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Carpet The magic carpet of Tangu. A carpet to all appearances worthless, but if anyone sat thereon, it would transport him instantaneously to the place he wished to go. So called because it came from Tangu, in Persia. It is sometimes termed Prince Housain's carpet, because it came into his hands, and he made use of it. ( Arabian Nights: Prince Ahmed.) (-- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 03:37, 27 April 2012 (UTC))
Teleportation via Magic Carpet is not mentioned anywhere in the 1001 Nights, in fact only Jinn's have the ability to do that, not the Flying Carpet of Prince Hussain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.182.119.244 ( talk) 12:09, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
These are quite possibly both right as transliterations from the Persian, as there are a number of different transliteration schemes around (not to mention the odd ambiguity, even within the one scheme).
The point is - changing from one to the other needs some consultation - since some quite scholarly editors have been at this one, "Hazar" is evidently the one in the sources they have used - and we'd need a good and sufficient reason, and possibly a consensus, to change it. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 09:30, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
The Nights ARE firmly associated with countries that happen to have Muslim majorities - how much this makes them part of "Islamic culture" is a bit debatable however. The so called "Persian prototype" dates from a time when Persia was still Zoroastrian, for instance - while the Indian roots of many of the tales have a Hindu background. Finally - the "fairy tale morality" of many of the tales is certainly not consistent with Islamic values (or those of any other religion for that matter). It would be different if it were a collection of religious parables or moral fables. But what do others think? -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 01:12, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
The claim that the work contains Turkish influence is simply wrong. It has an ancient Indian basis which was later collected in a Persian tradition. That Persian tradition was enriched and Arabized, adding to it folktales from Egypt and Arabia. There is no Turkish influence. First of all, because Turkish literature did not exist back then. And secondly, because it was written and finished in an era and in a region, when Turkish had no influence or importance yet. The caliphate was slowly beginning to integrate Turkish slave soldiers into the royal army. If anyone claims otherwise, please support it with reliable sources. Which element of 1001 is supposed to be of Turkish origin or has been influence by Turkish?! -- Lysozym ( talk) 14:05, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
I actually argued FOR the retention of a Persian language name for the nights when we had the discussion that established the current consensus - I was however convinced by the arguments of people who obviously knew far more about the matter than I do. The Persian work Hazār Afsān (or Hezār Afsān?) ( Persian: هزار افسان, lit. A Thousand Tales) is in fact another work, which is mentioned both in the lead, and in its own section in the article. However much (or little) this work (alas, lost to us) influenced or fore-shadowed the "Nights" which are the subject of the article is not the point, the fact remains that this is NOT the name of any existing version of the subject of this article. As for Hezār-o yak šab - this is not the name of the (lost) Persian story collection, but that given to (modern) Persian translations of the Arabic version.
But, as the article, with great circumspection, reference to scholarly references, and, to be quite fair, a complete lack or chauvinism, makes abundantly clear, the story collection as we have it is an Arabic work. There is no precedent for including any name for a foreign language work in English Wikipedia other than the original name, and the English name. It really is as simple as that. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 00:57, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
The article admits Arabian Nights is the more common english name of the collection. And the sources also seem to use "Arabian Nights" so i propose renaming it to "Arabian Nights" per WP:COMMONNAME. Lucia Black ( talk) 10:55, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
Im torn at your reasoning of how NPOV works and show many exceptions to get around WP:COMMONNAME. This isnt about my opinion on whats based non-nuetral, its wikipedia's policy. WP:NPOV if anything your "opinion" on how NPOV works seems to go "against" it. And a title used to avoid racism while may be more bias to think so if they arent familiar with WP:COMMONNAME and WP:NPOV. On a lighter note, Barns and Noble is selling a more recent edition of the book as "arabian Nights". Im just sticking with policy and with information already given. Lucia Black ( talk) 15:03, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Definitely my last word - I really want to step back from this whole question, and I think you should do the same. There is very obviously no pressing need for this article to be renamed - and unless the is a consensus that the current title is inappropriate in some way it sould probably stay as it is (consensus is important in Wiki - since we are never all going to agree about everything).
This time I will put my most important argument - and one you have NOT answered that I can see first.
1. Both titles fulfil the conditions of WP:COMMON quite well. They are BOTH often used in the sources - in fact very often in a double-barrelled way (like 1001 Nights, often called the Arabian Nights - OR Arabian nights - also often called the 1001 nights). Neither title is unusual, or esoteric, or strange in any way - neither is either too academic, or too popular - although we may or may not see one or the other as more academic or more popular this is not reflected consistently in the sources. Hence for instance it is possible to find "popular" sources using "1001 nights" and academic ones using "Arabian nights".
2. One drawback of the title "Arabian Nights" is very simply the emphasis it gives to the "Arabian" (Arab, Arabic) side of the collection's origins. There is a POV (or point of view) out there that this is unfair to various other threads in the origins of the story (read the article itself if you don't already have a clear idea of how complicated the origins are in fact - and how different scholars have differed). There are users out there who see the title "Arabian Nights" as a bull sees a red rag - and even go so far as to edit it out of the article altogether! I hesitated to point you at the posts where we argued through this one (they are archived now) because a good deal of the arguments were most unedifying, but it might be an idea for you to get a clear idea of what is involved. No one (not even they themselves) would say that their' point of view is a neutral one of course - but it is a POV. NPOV tries to "balance" POVs (without giving undue weight to any that are patently silly). But who is to say who is silly? Especially when different legitimate sources do in fact differ? In the context of point #1 above (neither title is really ruled out by WP:COMMON) it does make sense not to pre-empt the question "how Arabian are the Nights" - by using instead a more "Neutral" title. The question itself is of course covered by several sections of the article.
3. ESPECIALLY when, after all, "1001 nights" is the strictly "correct" title anyway! (i.e. a literal translation of the title in Arabic) - AND to partly recap argument #1 - it is at worst a close runner up in the "most common title" stakes - certainly it is not in any way estoteric or strange.
This is the same argument I have already given in several quite long posts - I am MOST definitely not going to boil my cabbages again, sorry. If you have not come to agree with me that it is your own argument that is "flawed" then that's fine - but we have (really) to step back and let a consensus of other users decide. Do remember that the only question is "does the current title remain an appropriate one - and if not why not? "Broader issues" are best raised in a broader sense - like "How appropriate are some of the clauses of WP:COMMON?" An entirely different question of course. -- Soundofmusicals ( talk) 10:32, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Richard ruffian ( talk) 22:50, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
hi, i'm a iranian, so i can speek persian
you should know something: 'Hazar' is incorrect. the correct Pronunciation is 'Hezar' or هزار
hezar meaning Thousand in persian
how many times you read this book?
هزار و یک شب meanings One Thousand and One Nights
but (Arabic: كتاب ألف ليلة وليلة) hasn't mean One Thousand and One Nights
كتاب ألف ليلة وليلة ≠ One Thousand and One Nights ?[hi i'm arab, and (كتاب ألف ليلة وليلة) means in arabic "The book of one Thousand and One Nights", and (ألف ليلة وليلة) means "one Thousand and One Nights", and sorry i don't know how to use this thing (editing talk).
هزار و یک شب = One Thousand and One Nights
forgive me. i can't speek english vey well — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.122.221.113 ( talk) 13:39, 21 July 2012 (UTC)