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First, the edit gives the misleading impression that Bouchard's estimate is generally accepted. The Minnesota Twin Studies have been criticized, and they're partially financed by the Pioneer Fund. Secondly, the 80% estimate goes back to Cyril Burt in mid-20th century or earlier, so it shouldn't be called "a recent estimate". NightHeron ( talk) 09:32, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
Sock drawer. Generalrelative ( talk) 19:32, 17 December 2022 (UTC) |
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Current short description: "Score derived from tests purported to measure individual differences in human intelligence." My problems with it:
My proposed changes: "Standardized score from a test designed to assess intelligence."
BooleanQuackery ( talk) 20:10, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
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This is a continuation of the discussion at Talk:Heritability_of_IQ#Comments_on_sourcing_and_consensus, regarding the statement in this article, "there is no evidence for a genetic component". In the Heritability of IQ article, the same statement was recently changed [2] to something that I think more accurately reflects its sources, but in this article (Intelligence quotient) it has not been changed. I suggest it should be changed the same way in both articles. In the other discussion, Firefangledfeathers suggested opening a new discussion about the same statement in this article, and I'd like to know his or her opinion about potentially making the same change here. -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 18:45, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Please change the sentence or remove it. It isn't consistent with the sources it cites. Nor is it consistent with sources such as [4] from the American Journal of Psychology, about the various lines of indirect evidence that the average differences include a genetic component. Mr Butterbur ( talk) 16:26, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
It is sometimes suggested that the Black/ White differential in psychometric intelligence is partly due to genetic differences (Jensen, 1972). There is not much direct evidence on this point, but what little there is fails to support the genetic hypothesis.
The differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one standard deviation, although it may be diminishing) does not result from any obvious biases in test construction and administration, nor does it simply reflect differences in socio-economic status. Explanations based on factors of caste and culture may be appropriate, but so far have little direct empirical support. There is certainly no such support for a genetic interpretation. At present, no one knows what causes this differential.
Here is the version that Ferahgo is advocating for:While there is little scholarly debate about the continued existence of some of these differences, current scientific consensus tells us that there is no evidence for a genetic component behind them.
Neither of those is bad but the first is, in my view, marginally more readable and informative. So I can only see two possible rationales for the change: 1) if you buy the view that the sources do not support the "no evidence" statement (already discussed in previous threads ad nauseam), or 2) if you think compromise here will provide some additional value, i.e. be an effective way to move forward collaboratively. Regarding 2, I would really love to believe that, but past experience in this topic area has left me dubious. Generalrelative ( talk) 02:00, 8 August 2022 (UTC)While there is little scholarly debate about the continued existence of some of these differences, current current scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain average differences in IQ test performance between racial groups.
We could then cite e.g. [6] (While there is little scholarly debate about the continued existence of some of these differences, the current scientific consensus is that they stem from environmental rather than genetic causes.
Intelligence science has undoubtedly been dogged by ugly prejudice. Historical measurements of skull volume and brain weight were done to advance claims of the racial superiority of white people. More recently, the (genuine but closing) gap between the average IQ scores of groups of black and white people in the United States has been falsely attributed to genetic differences between the races.), [7] (
There is an emerging consensus about racial and gender equality in genetic determinants of intelligence; most researchers, including ourselves, agree that genes do not explain between-group differences.) and [8] (
Group differences in IQ are best understood as environmental in origin.) Thoughts? Generalrelative ( talk) 04:57, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Sock drawer. Generalrelative ( talk) 23:48, 9 August 2022 (UTC) |
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I would also like to avoid such proximate repetition. One possible way around it: does this section really need an introductory paragraph? Could we fold in the couple lines on race and sex into the subsections? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 02:28, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
...with these two sentences from the lead of Race and intelligence:Despite the tremendous amount of research done on the topic, no scientific evidence has emerged that the average IQ scores of different population groups can be attributed to genetic differences between those groups. Growing evidence indicates that environmental factors, not genetic ones, explain the racial IQ gap.
For the latter sentence, we could use the same three refs as for sentence #1: [10] [11] [12]. For the "empirical and theoretical grounds" statement, we have many options, but I'd suggest including [13]:In recent decades, as understanding of human genetics has advanced, claims of inherent differences in intelligence between races have been broadly rejected by scientists on both theoretical and empirical grounds. Today, the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups, and that observed differences are environmental in origin.
"[W]hile it is true that most researchers in the area of human genetics and human biological diversity no longer allocate significant resources and time to the race/IQ discussion, and that moral concerns may play an important role in these decisions, an equally fundamental reason why researchers do not engage with the thesis is that empirical evidence shows that the whole idea itself is unintelligible and wrong-headed.(I see that the R&I article still contains refs added by a block-evading sockpuppet [14], so we should reevaluate whether they belong there, but that is another topic which should be discussed elsewhere.) Generalrelative ( talk) 03:35, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
We believe there is a fairly wide consensus among behavioral scientists in favor of our views, but there is undeniably a range of opinions in the scientific community. Some well-informed scientists hold views closer to Murray’s than to ours.
Take it from me, the evidence is highly complicated. The best we can say is that it is more probable that the I.Q. gap between black and white is entirely environmental in origin.(Emphasis in original)
In recent decades, as understanding of human genetics has advanced, no specific genes have been identified that explain racial IQ gaps.That's a paraphrase of the Hunt source already cited for the first sentence, and it is a more accurate paraphrase than what that sentence currently says. -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 05:05, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
geneticist would support such an extreme statementwithout realizing that two of the authors –– renowned biological anthropologists Agustín Fuentes and Jonathan M. Marks –– are far more reliable as subject-matter experts in genetics than any of the psychologists you quote. If anyone doubts that, I’d be happy to walk you through their credentials specifically with regard to genetics. It’s irrelevant that several of their co-authors on that particular publication are philosophers. That argument is a red herring.
a fairly wide consensus) on both theoretical and empirical grounds. Indeed, it's in the title of their follow-up piece:
There’s still no good reason to believe black-white IQ differences are due to genes[15]. So it's not at all clear how you intend to use these figures to argue against the wording I've suggested. Generalrelative ( talk) 07:32, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Some laypeople I know—and some scientists as well—believe that it is a priori impossible for a genetic difference in intelligence to exist between the races. But such a conviction is entirely unfounded. There are a hundred ways that a genetic difference in intelligence could have arisen—either in favor of whites or in favor of blacks. The question is an empirical one, not answerable by a priori convictions about the essential equality of groups.Nisbett then goes on to argue that the empirical evidence supports an environmental cause, not a genetic one.
In recent decades, as understanding of human genetics has advanced, inherent differences in intelligence between races are considered unlikely.Would you accept that phrasing? -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 08:16, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
claims about the genetic basis for population differences, are not scientifically supported.
In recent decades, as understanding of human genetics has advancedpart, because it could be read to imply that these group differences (particularly race) are inherently genetic. Perhaps an alternate wording that makes it clearer that past speculation about racial differences was based in antiquated views of race (arbitrarily assigned by how groups of people looked, prior to modern genetics debunked it). That and, as mentioned above, we should abide by current consensus that we clearly state there is no evidence for a genetic basis for group differences. Bakkster Man ( talk) 16:10, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
In recent decades, current scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups, and that observed differences are environmental in origin? -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 17:28, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm seeing broad agreement on the line "Today, the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups, and that observed differences are environmental in origin." After that, I'm seeing a lack of consensus on what a second line should say. Is that an accurate assessment of where we're at? Can we replace the two lines currently in the article with the one line we all seem to support and call that an incremental improvement? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 17:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Despite the tremendous amount of research done on the topic, no scientific evidence has emerged that the average IQ scores of different population groups can be attributed to genetic differences between those groups. [1] [2] Growing evidence indicates that environmental factors, not genetic ones, explain the racial IQ gap. [3] [4] [5]
Today, the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups, and that observed differences are environmental in origin.[6]
"While there is little scholarly debate about the continued existence of some of these differences, current scientific consensus tells us that there is no evidence for a genetic component behind them"was that in addition to one of the existing lines? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 18:14, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
While there is little scholarly debate about the continued existence of some of these differences, the current scientific consensus is that they stem from environmental rather than genetic causes.. Now I believe we're discussing the two sentences in the body of the "Race" subsection which currently read
Despite the tremendous amount of research done on the topic, no scientific evidence has emerged that the average IQ scores of different population groups can be attributed to genetic differences between those groups. Growing evidence indicates that environmental factors, not genetic ones, explain the racial IQ gap.I recently replaced the Hunt citation there –– which had been a point of contention –– with two alternate sources, in an effort to resolve concerns about whether the "no scientific evidence" part was supported. As you can see from the ref quotes below, both the sources I added make clear that the genetic hypothesis is not supported by science of any kind. I think that this is valuable material to keep in the article, though I'm open to discussing how exactly it's phrased. Generalrelative ( talk) 18:53, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Despite the tremendous amount of research done on the topic, no scientific evidence has emerged that the average IQ scores of different population groups can be attributed to genetic differences between those groups.That sentence does not contain the word "consensus", so your point about WP:RS/AC is moot. And that sourcing restriction applies to the article Race and intelligence, not this one. Absent the specific sourcing restriction, there is no issue with the source being self-published, per WP:RS/SPS, since Birney et al. are clearly established subject-matter experts. Generalrelative ( talk) 20:57, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
This has already been discussed ad nauseum and doesn't need to be relitigated again. Saying "no direct evidence" would be weasel wording because it suggests (but does not say) that there's "indirect evidence", without saying what that indirect evidence is supposed to be. None of the sources -- that includes the ones that use the weasel wording -- give any evidence whatsoever of a genetic role in the IQ difference. The consensus of geneticists is that a genetic role in the difference would be inconsistent with what we know about genetics, race, IQ, intelligence, etc. Please don't keep repeating the same arguments that have already been rejected by consensus. NightHeron ( talk) 08:54, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
Racial and ethnic categories are correlated with genetic ancestry, but race is not reducible to genetics.The word "correlated" comes directly from the source, and we can't make this source say something different from what it does. If you wish to suggest an alternate wording for this sentence that is equally true to the source, go ahead, but our views as Wikipedia editors can't supersede the terms and ideas that are presented in the highest quality sources. -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 05:07, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
The available evidence reviewed by several authors in this volume provides, as Richard E. Nisbett puts it, "no evidence for genetic superiority of either race while providing strong evidence for a substantial environmental contribution to the black-white IQ gap."This really should be the end of the debate. Generalrelative ( talk) 03:16, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
evidently are trying very hardto do? It really wouldn't be a flattering picture. I'm afraid that your insistence on doing so to me –– despite having been asked to stop [31] –– means that my patience with you is at an end. Good luck convincing others that Heiner Rindermann and Russell Warne (your "two books published by Cambridge University Press") represent mainstream science on the matter. I'll be here to revert changes that go against consensus and to weigh in as briefly as possible when necessary. It's too bad though; there really did appear to be a moment when compromise was possible. Generalrelative ( talk) 06:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I do not agree that this source should completely supersede all of the more recent sources of similar quality that say indirect evidence for a genetic component existsIt's attributed to Nisbett. How does that override anything?
no scientific evidence has emergedin Wikipedia's voice, not attributed to anyone, or should say
the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups. My argument is that the sourcing for the second potential statement is much stronger. -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 06:57, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
You should not make accusations without evidence. There are over 1000 watchers of this page, so there's no reason to think that one of the editors with whom you've been debating reverted your edit as a sock. I agree with the revertion, but I didn't do it. Like the vast majority of Wikipedia editors, I would never under any circumstances edit with a fake account.
To continue with Hob Gadling's analogy, the first sentence of Homeopathy calls it a pseudoscience in wikivoice (sourced, but not attributed). The notion that there's any valid evidence of any genetic role in racial differences in IQ scores is a fringe notion, according to consensus of editors in two RfCs. Your own personal view of the matter does not trump consensus. NightHeron ( talk) 09:07, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Avoid stating facts as opinionsper WP:YESPOV. Generalrelative ( talk) 23:11, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Today, the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups, and that observed differences are environmental in origin. Richard E. Nisbett states that no scientific evidence has emerged that the average IQ scores of different population groups can be attributed to genetic differences between those groups.Is that closer to what you had in mind? -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 08:51, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Sock drawer. Generalrelative ( talk) 16:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC) |
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GR's proposal is looking better to me with each additional source. I don't think Nesbitt needs to be attributed, but if he does, we should try and capture the point of the source: many experts agree that there is no evidence, and here's how Nesbitt describes that agreement. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 12:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Looking over the above discussion, I see a clear consensus in favor of the status quo "no scientific evidence" statement:
we should abide by current consensus that we clearly state there is no evidence for a genetic basis for group differences.
Regardless of who made the revert, I agree that it should have been reverted. The article shouldn't imply that the point is simply one person's opinion.
I agree with the revertion... The notion that there's any valid evidence of any genetic role in racial differences in IQ scores is a fringe notion, according to consensus of editors in two RfCs.
The sentence is supported by three refs, with a total of eight authors. And indeed, the one source that quotes Nisbett states that several other contributors to the book corroborate his findings. This is a clear case of Avoid stating facts as opinions per WP:YESPOV.
I am perfectly fine with a no-evidence sentence without attribution, and I do not see any need to change it.
I don't think Nesbitt needs to be attributed
Seems to me that we may be nearing the point where an uninvolved editor can safely close this discussion. Generalrelative ( talk) 23:31, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Sock drawer. Generalrelative ( talk) 20:01, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
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Refs |
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References
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Obviously, a section with criticism is needed, because IQ has always been full of controversy and inaccuracies. If not, then Wikipedia is not encyclopaedic 78.106.255.87 ( talk) 14:02, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
Thanks to @ Generalrelative for asking why I think it would be beneficial to cite new Dworak study. The current page on the Intelligence quotient already has a paragraph talking about the "negative flynn effect", citing a 2016 study coauthord by Richard Lynn and a 2018 study coauthored by Bernt Bratsberg. In the current issue of the "Intelligence" journal there has been new research on the topic, including the (2023) study I cited. I think that study would be beneficial to cite since it provides interested readers of Wikipedia another, more recent, source on the topic.
Apologies - but I don't know what you mean by the topic being contested? The negative flynn effect definitely a phenomenon for which evidence has been recently discovered. Besides, I didn't add any new description, only another source for the already existing description confirming what the previous sources already have shown. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant? LenoJeno ( talk) 19:59, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
It is learning from examples. There is lots of this all the time in out environment. Inductive reasoning Ran8dom9 ( talk) 19:05, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
§ "Job performance" includes this paragraph: "Newer studies find that the effects of IQ on job performance have been greatly overestimated. The current estimates of the correlation between job performance and IQ are about 0.23 correcting for unreliability and range restriction."
I fear this presentation lacks WP:BALANCE, given that it's citing what is essentially a single paper by two researchers (the other is a minor follow-up) which has been subject to quite significant significant criticism from experts in just the few months since publication, who point out that it's narrow (only including supervisor ratings as a "performance" measure) and is hardly "new" (as its range-restriction claims have been brought up and dismissed in the past). Moreover, the paper(s) referenced find diminished correlations between almost every other metric and performance (e.g., interviews; work sample tests; job-knowledge tests, etc.)
Given that there is hardly a consensus in support of the Sackett, et al. paper(s) it seems unbalanced to include them, at least in the current framing. I'm in favor of removing it entirely, since it runs contrary to consensus backed by an staggering amount of research. Alternately, we could add its narrow focus and other significant criticism, but that may just compound the WP:UNDUE issue. Frankly, I'm not sure it adds much to our article, since of course Sackett, et al. still concede that cognitive ability is one of variables most highly correlated with job performance. Thanks! Ekpyros ( talk) 19:26, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
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First, the edit gives the misleading impression that Bouchard's estimate is generally accepted. The Minnesota Twin Studies have been criticized, and they're partially financed by the Pioneer Fund. Secondly, the 80% estimate goes back to Cyril Burt in mid-20th century or earlier, so it shouldn't be called "a recent estimate". NightHeron ( talk) 09:32, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
Sock drawer. Generalrelative ( talk) 19:32, 17 December 2022 (UTC) |
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Current short description: "Score derived from tests purported to measure individual differences in human intelligence." My problems with it:
My proposed changes: "Standardized score from a test designed to assess intelligence."
BooleanQuackery ( talk) 20:10, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
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This is a continuation of the discussion at Talk:Heritability_of_IQ#Comments_on_sourcing_and_consensus, regarding the statement in this article, "there is no evidence for a genetic component". In the Heritability of IQ article, the same statement was recently changed [2] to something that I think more accurately reflects its sources, but in this article (Intelligence quotient) it has not been changed. I suggest it should be changed the same way in both articles. In the other discussion, Firefangledfeathers suggested opening a new discussion about the same statement in this article, and I'd like to know his or her opinion about potentially making the same change here. -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 18:45, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Please change the sentence or remove it. It isn't consistent with the sources it cites. Nor is it consistent with sources such as [4] from the American Journal of Psychology, about the various lines of indirect evidence that the average differences include a genetic component. Mr Butterbur ( talk) 16:26, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
It is sometimes suggested that the Black/ White differential in psychometric intelligence is partly due to genetic differences (Jensen, 1972). There is not much direct evidence on this point, but what little there is fails to support the genetic hypothesis.
The differential between the mean intelligence test scores of Blacks and Whites (about one standard deviation, although it may be diminishing) does not result from any obvious biases in test construction and administration, nor does it simply reflect differences in socio-economic status. Explanations based on factors of caste and culture may be appropriate, but so far have little direct empirical support. There is certainly no such support for a genetic interpretation. At present, no one knows what causes this differential.
Here is the version that Ferahgo is advocating for:While there is little scholarly debate about the continued existence of some of these differences, current scientific consensus tells us that there is no evidence for a genetic component behind them.
Neither of those is bad but the first is, in my view, marginally more readable and informative. So I can only see two possible rationales for the change: 1) if you buy the view that the sources do not support the "no evidence" statement (already discussed in previous threads ad nauseam), or 2) if you think compromise here will provide some additional value, i.e. be an effective way to move forward collaboratively. Regarding 2, I would really love to believe that, but past experience in this topic area has left me dubious. Generalrelative ( talk) 02:00, 8 August 2022 (UTC)While there is little scholarly debate about the continued existence of some of these differences, current current scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain average differences in IQ test performance between racial groups.
We could then cite e.g. [6] (While there is little scholarly debate about the continued existence of some of these differences, the current scientific consensus is that they stem from environmental rather than genetic causes.
Intelligence science has undoubtedly been dogged by ugly prejudice. Historical measurements of skull volume and brain weight were done to advance claims of the racial superiority of white people. More recently, the (genuine but closing) gap between the average IQ scores of groups of black and white people in the United States has been falsely attributed to genetic differences between the races.), [7] (
There is an emerging consensus about racial and gender equality in genetic determinants of intelligence; most researchers, including ourselves, agree that genes do not explain between-group differences.) and [8] (
Group differences in IQ are best understood as environmental in origin.) Thoughts? Generalrelative ( talk) 04:57, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
Sock drawer. Generalrelative ( talk) 23:48, 9 August 2022 (UTC) |
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I would also like to avoid such proximate repetition. One possible way around it: does this section really need an introductory paragraph? Could we fold in the couple lines on race and sex into the subsections? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 02:28, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
...with these two sentences from the lead of Race and intelligence:Despite the tremendous amount of research done on the topic, no scientific evidence has emerged that the average IQ scores of different population groups can be attributed to genetic differences between those groups. Growing evidence indicates that environmental factors, not genetic ones, explain the racial IQ gap.
For the latter sentence, we could use the same three refs as for sentence #1: [10] [11] [12]. For the "empirical and theoretical grounds" statement, we have many options, but I'd suggest including [13]:In recent decades, as understanding of human genetics has advanced, claims of inherent differences in intelligence between races have been broadly rejected by scientists on both theoretical and empirical grounds. Today, the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups, and that observed differences are environmental in origin.
"[W]hile it is true that most researchers in the area of human genetics and human biological diversity no longer allocate significant resources and time to the race/IQ discussion, and that moral concerns may play an important role in these decisions, an equally fundamental reason why researchers do not engage with the thesis is that empirical evidence shows that the whole idea itself is unintelligible and wrong-headed.(I see that the R&I article still contains refs added by a block-evading sockpuppet [14], so we should reevaluate whether they belong there, but that is another topic which should be discussed elsewhere.) Generalrelative ( talk) 03:35, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
We believe there is a fairly wide consensus among behavioral scientists in favor of our views, but there is undeniably a range of opinions in the scientific community. Some well-informed scientists hold views closer to Murray’s than to ours.
Take it from me, the evidence is highly complicated. The best we can say is that it is more probable that the I.Q. gap between black and white is entirely environmental in origin.(Emphasis in original)
In recent decades, as understanding of human genetics has advanced, no specific genes have been identified that explain racial IQ gaps.That's a paraphrase of the Hunt source already cited for the first sentence, and it is a more accurate paraphrase than what that sentence currently says. -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 05:05, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
geneticist would support such an extreme statementwithout realizing that two of the authors –– renowned biological anthropologists Agustín Fuentes and Jonathan M. Marks –– are far more reliable as subject-matter experts in genetics than any of the psychologists you quote. If anyone doubts that, I’d be happy to walk you through their credentials specifically with regard to genetics. It’s irrelevant that several of their co-authors on that particular publication are philosophers. That argument is a red herring.
a fairly wide consensus) on both theoretical and empirical grounds. Indeed, it's in the title of their follow-up piece:
There’s still no good reason to believe black-white IQ differences are due to genes[15]. So it's not at all clear how you intend to use these figures to argue against the wording I've suggested. Generalrelative ( talk) 07:32, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
Some laypeople I know—and some scientists as well—believe that it is a priori impossible for a genetic difference in intelligence to exist between the races. But such a conviction is entirely unfounded. There are a hundred ways that a genetic difference in intelligence could have arisen—either in favor of whites or in favor of blacks. The question is an empirical one, not answerable by a priori convictions about the essential equality of groups.Nisbett then goes on to argue that the empirical evidence supports an environmental cause, not a genetic one.
In recent decades, as understanding of human genetics has advanced, inherent differences in intelligence between races are considered unlikely.Would you accept that phrasing? -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 08:16, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
claims about the genetic basis for population differences, are not scientifically supported.
In recent decades, as understanding of human genetics has advancedpart, because it could be read to imply that these group differences (particularly race) are inherently genetic. Perhaps an alternate wording that makes it clearer that past speculation about racial differences was based in antiquated views of race (arbitrarily assigned by how groups of people looked, prior to modern genetics debunked it). That and, as mentioned above, we should abide by current consensus that we clearly state there is no evidence for a genetic basis for group differences. Bakkster Man ( talk) 16:10, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
In recent decades, current scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups, and that observed differences are environmental in origin? -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 17:28, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
I'm seeing broad agreement on the line "Today, the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups, and that observed differences are environmental in origin." After that, I'm seeing a lack of consensus on what a second line should say. Is that an accurate assessment of where we're at? Can we replace the two lines currently in the article with the one line we all seem to support and call that an incremental improvement? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 17:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Despite the tremendous amount of research done on the topic, no scientific evidence has emerged that the average IQ scores of different population groups can be attributed to genetic differences between those groups. [1] [2] Growing evidence indicates that environmental factors, not genetic ones, explain the racial IQ gap. [3] [4] [5]
Today, the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups, and that observed differences are environmental in origin.[6]
"While there is little scholarly debate about the continued existence of some of these differences, current scientific consensus tells us that there is no evidence for a genetic component behind them"was that in addition to one of the existing lines? Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 18:14, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
While there is little scholarly debate about the continued existence of some of these differences, the current scientific consensus is that they stem from environmental rather than genetic causes.. Now I believe we're discussing the two sentences in the body of the "Race" subsection which currently read
Despite the tremendous amount of research done on the topic, no scientific evidence has emerged that the average IQ scores of different population groups can be attributed to genetic differences between those groups. Growing evidence indicates that environmental factors, not genetic ones, explain the racial IQ gap.I recently replaced the Hunt citation there –– which had been a point of contention –– with two alternate sources, in an effort to resolve concerns about whether the "no scientific evidence" part was supported. As you can see from the ref quotes below, both the sources I added make clear that the genetic hypothesis is not supported by science of any kind. I think that this is valuable material to keep in the article, though I'm open to discussing how exactly it's phrased. Generalrelative ( talk) 18:53, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Despite the tremendous amount of research done on the topic, no scientific evidence has emerged that the average IQ scores of different population groups can be attributed to genetic differences between those groups.That sentence does not contain the word "consensus", so your point about WP:RS/AC is moot. And that sourcing restriction applies to the article Race and intelligence, not this one. Absent the specific sourcing restriction, there is no issue with the source being self-published, per WP:RS/SPS, since Birney et al. are clearly established subject-matter experts. Generalrelative ( talk) 20:57, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
This has already been discussed ad nauseum and doesn't need to be relitigated again. Saying "no direct evidence" would be weasel wording because it suggests (but does not say) that there's "indirect evidence", without saying what that indirect evidence is supposed to be. None of the sources -- that includes the ones that use the weasel wording -- give any evidence whatsoever of a genetic role in the IQ difference. The consensus of geneticists is that a genetic role in the difference would be inconsistent with what we know about genetics, race, IQ, intelligence, etc. Please don't keep repeating the same arguments that have already been rejected by consensus. NightHeron ( talk) 08:54, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
Racial and ethnic categories are correlated with genetic ancestry, but race is not reducible to genetics.The word "correlated" comes directly from the source, and we can't make this source say something different from what it does. If you wish to suggest an alternate wording for this sentence that is equally true to the source, go ahead, but our views as Wikipedia editors can't supersede the terms and ideas that are presented in the highest quality sources. -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 05:07, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
The available evidence reviewed by several authors in this volume provides, as Richard E. Nisbett puts it, "no evidence for genetic superiority of either race while providing strong evidence for a substantial environmental contribution to the black-white IQ gap."This really should be the end of the debate. Generalrelative ( talk) 03:16, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
evidently are trying very hardto do? It really wouldn't be a flattering picture. I'm afraid that your insistence on doing so to me –– despite having been asked to stop [31] –– means that my patience with you is at an end. Good luck convincing others that Heiner Rindermann and Russell Warne (your "two books published by Cambridge University Press") represent mainstream science on the matter. I'll be here to revert changes that go against consensus and to weigh in as briefly as possible when necessary. It's too bad though; there really did appear to be a moment when compromise was possible. Generalrelative ( talk) 06:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I do not agree that this source should completely supersede all of the more recent sources of similar quality that say indirect evidence for a genetic component existsIt's attributed to Nisbett. How does that override anything?
no scientific evidence has emergedin Wikipedia's voice, not attributed to anyone, or should say
the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups. My argument is that the sourcing for the second potential statement is much stronger. -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 06:57, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
You should not make accusations without evidence. There are over 1000 watchers of this page, so there's no reason to think that one of the editors with whom you've been debating reverted your edit as a sock. I agree with the revertion, but I didn't do it. Like the vast majority of Wikipedia editors, I would never under any circumstances edit with a fake account.
To continue with Hob Gadling's analogy, the first sentence of Homeopathy calls it a pseudoscience in wikivoice (sourced, but not attributed). The notion that there's any valid evidence of any genetic role in racial differences in IQ scores is a fringe notion, according to consensus of editors in two RfCs. Your own personal view of the matter does not trump consensus. NightHeron ( talk) 09:07, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Avoid stating facts as opinionsper WP:YESPOV. Generalrelative ( talk) 23:11, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
Today, the scientific consensus is that genetics does not explain differences in IQ test performance between groups, and that observed differences are environmental in origin. Richard E. Nisbett states that no scientific evidence has emerged that the average IQ scores of different population groups can be attributed to genetic differences between those groups.Is that closer to what you had in mind? -- AndewNguyen ( talk) 08:51, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Sock drawer. Generalrelative ( talk) 16:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC) |
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GR's proposal is looking better to me with each additional source. I don't think Nesbitt needs to be attributed, but if he does, we should try and capture the point of the source: many experts agree that there is no evidence, and here's how Nesbitt describes that agreement. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 12:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Looking over the above discussion, I see a clear consensus in favor of the status quo "no scientific evidence" statement:
we should abide by current consensus that we clearly state there is no evidence for a genetic basis for group differences.
Regardless of who made the revert, I agree that it should have been reverted. The article shouldn't imply that the point is simply one person's opinion.
I agree with the revertion... The notion that there's any valid evidence of any genetic role in racial differences in IQ scores is a fringe notion, according to consensus of editors in two RfCs.
The sentence is supported by three refs, with a total of eight authors. And indeed, the one source that quotes Nisbett states that several other contributors to the book corroborate his findings. This is a clear case of Avoid stating facts as opinions per WP:YESPOV.
I am perfectly fine with a no-evidence sentence without attribution, and I do not see any need to change it.
I don't think Nesbitt needs to be attributed
Seems to me that we may be nearing the point where an uninvolved editor can safely close this discussion. Generalrelative ( talk) 23:31, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
Sock drawer. Generalrelative ( talk) 20:01, 21 September 2022 (UTC) |
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Obviously, a section with criticism is needed, because IQ has always been full of controversy and inaccuracies. If not, then Wikipedia is not encyclopaedic 78.106.255.87 ( talk) 14:02, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
Thanks to @ Generalrelative for asking why I think it would be beneficial to cite new Dworak study. The current page on the Intelligence quotient already has a paragraph talking about the "negative flynn effect", citing a 2016 study coauthord by Richard Lynn and a 2018 study coauthored by Bernt Bratsberg. In the current issue of the "Intelligence" journal there has been new research on the topic, including the (2023) study I cited. I think that study would be beneficial to cite since it provides interested readers of Wikipedia another, more recent, source on the topic.
Apologies - but I don't know what you mean by the topic being contested? The negative flynn effect definitely a phenomenon for which evidence has been recently discovered. Besides, I didn't add any new description, only another source for the already existing description confirming what the previous sources already have shown. Maybe I misunderstood what you meant? LenoJeno ( talk) 19:59, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
It is learning from examples. There is lots of this all the time in out environment. Inductive reasoning Ran8dom9 ( talk) 19:05, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
§ "Job performance" includes this paragraph: "Newer studies find that the effects of IQ on job performance have been greatly overestimated. The current estimates of the correlation between job performance and IQ are about 0.23 correcting for unreliability and range restriction."
I fear this presentation lacks WP:BALANCE, given that it's citing what is essentially a single paper by two researchers (the other is a minor follow-up) which has been subject to quite significant significant criticism from experts in just the few months since publication, who point out that it's narrow (only including supervisor ratings as a "performance" measure) and is hardly "new" (as its range-restriction claims have been brought up and dismissed in the past). Moreover, the paper(s) referenced find diminished correlations between almost every other metric and performance (e.g., interviews; work sample tests; job-knowledge tests, etc.)
Given that there is hardly a consensus in support of the Sackett, et al. paper(s) it seems unbalanced to include them, at least in the current framing. I'm in favor of removing it entirely, since it runs contrary to consensus backed by an staggering amount of research. Alternately, we could add its narrow focus and other significant criticism, but that may just compound the WP:UNDUE issue. Frankly, I'm not sure it adds much to our article, since of course Sackett, et al. still concede that cognitive ability is one of variables most highly correlated with job performance. Thanks! Ekpyros ( talk) 19:26, 11 December 2023 (UTC)