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It has become increasingly apparent that original research has been featured alongside several studies. This includes references to haplogroup predictors such as Nevgen and other publications which are not referenced in the specificed study i.e. Gad 2020. The article should only make reference to the actual conclusions and statements in the specified study otherwise this suggests misleading conclusions to the general reader and violates Wikipedia guidelines on original research. I have deleted several, examples of original research but this action should be taken by other editors per consenus as I will no longer be active on Wikipedia. WikiUser4020 ( talk) 07:44, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
The 2017 DNA study found that Ancient Egyptians had a genetic profile similar to that of modern Egyptians and had a high affinity with the population of the modern Near East is flawed and should not be listed in the overview as fact. The study took DNA samples from a single graveyard and tried to apply the findings to all of Egypt. This study has been criticized by other scholars for its sample bias. 213.114.159.171 ( talk) 20:31, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
The user Sarah SchneiderCH has removed the image caption of the first image in the article several times now without any valid explanation whatsoever. The last removal is in this
diff, where she says in her edit summary: "Are you trying to impose the theory here and to promote an idea through Wikipedia, the sources still do not mention this clearly, and among them is what is repeated only to obfuscate." And then in a comment she said: "The sources you provided in your submission are not scientific or universally accepted, and they do not align with the existing content."
What Sarah SchneiderCH is saying is absolutely false, every single bit of it. These cited sources (
1,
2,
3) are scientific genetic studies, they are the epitome of WP:RS. They absolutely corroborate the statements they are directly cited for in the caption. Here is the image caption that Sarah SchneiderCH removed, with the citation from the aforementioned scientific genetic studies: "Two haplogroups, E1b1b and J, that are carried by both ancient and modern Egyptians.[
1], [
2], [
3 The subclade E-M78 of E1b1b is suggested to have originated in Northeast Africa in the area of Egypt and Libya, and is more predominant in Egypt.[
3" This image caption should be restored. Noting also that this is an article about Egyptians, not about the Middle East or North Africa in general, and the image caption has to relate the subject of the article as per WP:CAP.
Masrialltheway (
talk) 00:15, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
The second sentence in the caption is: "The subclade E-M78 of E1b1b is suggested to have originated in Northeast Africa in the area of Egypt and Libya, and is more predominant in Egypt." First, the Categorization of Northeast Africa as Egypt and Libya in this study, which is mentioned above, is in “Supplementary figure 1” and “Table 1” in Cruciani et al. under the categorization “Northeastern Africa”, starting from population number 42 and ending with 48. Something to note here is that Cruciani et al. (2007), which is cited here, supersedes earlier studies, which Cruciani et al. criticized for lacking data from Northeast Africa, which Cruciani et al. included (Egypt and Libya in the study), Cruciani et al. is also testing and reevaluating his own hypotheses in the earlier Cruciani et al. (2004) in light of including data from Northeast Africa. So, I will provide the direct quotes. Here are quotes from Cruciani et al.:
Quote from the abstract of the study: "The geographic and quantitative analyses of haplogroup and microsatellite diversity is strongly suggestive of a northeastern African origin of E-M78, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between northeastern and eastern Africa (at least 2 episodes between 23.9–17.3 ky and 18.0–5.9 ky ago), trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky), and flow from northeastern Africa to western Asia between 20.0 and 6.8 ky ago.
[3]"
Quote from the the section "Locating the Origin of Haplogroup E-M78" in the study: "In conclusion, the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity are strongly suggestive of a northeastern rather than an eastern African origin of E-M78. Northeastern Africa thus seems to be the place from where E-M78 chromosomes started to disperse to other African regions and outside Africa.
[3]" This conclusion is based on the discussion that precedes it in this section in the study, please see it as well as it contains important information about the clades and their presence in Northeastern Africa, Eastern Africa, and even Northwestern Africa; for instance, that: "E-V32, that represents about 82% of the eastern African E-M78 chromosomes, is a relatively recent terminal branch of E-V12 (8.5 ky).
[3]"
Quote from the section "A Corridor for Bidirectional Migrations between Northeastern and Eastern Africa" in the study: "The evolutionary processes that determined the wide dispersal of the E-M78 lineages from northeastern Africa to other regions can now be addressed ... A northeastern African origin for haplogroup E-M78 implies that E-M215 chromosomes were introduced in northeastern Africa from eastern Africa in the Upper Paleolithic, between 23.9 ky ago (the upper bound for E-M215 TMRCA in eastern Africa) and 17.3 ky ago (the lower bound for E-M78 TMRCA here estimated, fig. 1). In turn, the presence of E-M78 chromosomes in eastern Africa can be only explained through a back migration of chromosomes that had acquired the M78 mutation in northeastern Africa. The nested arrangement of haplogroups E-V12 and E-V32 defines an upper and lower bound for this episode, that is, 18.0 ky and 5.9 ky, respectively. These were probably not massive migrations, because the present high frequencies of E-V12 chromosomes in eastern Africa are entirely accounted for by E-V32, which most likely underwent subsequent geographically restricted demographic expansions involving well differentiated molecular types (fig. 3A). Conversely, the absence of E-V12* chromosomes in eastern Africa is compatible with loss by drift.
[3]"
I have shown, thus, that every single bit of this caption holds, and every single bit of it is corroborated by the scientific genetic studies that are cited. I'm focusing only on what is stated in the caption precisely, and nothing else whatsoever. Noting again that this an article about Egyptians, not about the Middle East or North Africa in general, as I remarked above, the statements should be directly relating the Egyptians, specially in an image caption, as per WP:CAP, which this caption does. Again, this caption should be restored. Masrialltheway ( talk) 19:58, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
It is eclectic as well. It should be exactly as it is stated in the source:A 2017 DNA study found that Ancient Egyptians had a genetic profile similar to that of modern Egyptians and had a high affinity with the population of the modern Near East.
A criticism of the study is not mentioned as wellA 2017 DNA study on ancient Egyptian mummies found that ancient Egyptians had more genetic similarities with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians.
I have waited for five days since my last comment, and so far
Sarah SchneiderCH has not offered any valid argument, neither for nor against anything, in her comments she just kept talking about other things that are not at all the issue at hand here, this is a form of
red herring, not to mention the absolutely wrong claims about the genetic studies (she is calling them "unscientific"), and not to mention that the caption was stable for months before Sarah SchneiderCH force-removed it in a dispute with another user who disagreed (see my comments above), and then, without any honest discussion here, she proceeded to say here above that she agrees with her version, not minding that
this is not a substitute for discussion (PNSD). There seems to be a general behavioral issue with the user Sarah SchneiderCH (
see ongoing report of her here by other editors, where the current discussion is cited among other disputes). On the other hand, I focused only on the issue at hand, i.e., what is stated in caption that I want to restore, and I explained everything in detail in my comments with data and quotes from the cited studies, showing that the claims made are absolutely incorrect, along with presenting an overall argument for the caption I want to restore, I even touched in my previous comment on the two sources used by Sarah SchneiderCH for her version of the caption.
Now, given that both content from both versions of the caption are well cited from
RS, and given that the sources in both versions of the caption are not contradictory, in fact they are complementary, and given that both statments in both versions of the caption are not contradictory, in fact they are complementary as well, and as per
WP:RMV, both content from both versions of the caption are to remain in the article, until there is any valid argument for the removal of anything, and nothing should be removed unless there is a thorough discussion here on the talk page first, and only after consensus based on the discussion; any attempt at removing anything without a thorough discussion here, and only after consensus based on the discussion, is to be considered a poor attempt to have the upper hand by an unexplained removal of content so as to avoid an honest discussion. Sarah SchneiderCH is not to ignore the discussion and provide nothing, nil, and then simply revert and edit-war. Therefore, I will proceed, per the guidelines (
WP:RMV), to include the statements from both versions of the caption, until a valid argument against anything is presented here and consensus is established based on the discussion. Or we can simply consider this inclusion of both statements from both versions to be an obvious compromise that, admittedly, both of us have overlooked, which could have saved us the trouble from the beginning; if this is to be considered a compromise, it can save us both the trouble of pursuing this further, and we can both move on.
Masrialltheway (
talk) 17:07, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
References
Tripling of the population sizes in c. 500 AD (Arabian Peninsula, Syria/Labanon/Jordan/Israel/Iraq, Turkey, Iran) is evidence is consistent with the origin of e1b1b in the Arabian peninsula, not elsewhere in the middle east and not in the continent of Africa. A finer point is to look at where Afro-Asiatic languages are spoken today. Arabic is a language from the Arab Arabian peninsula that belongs to the Afro-Asiatic language family, there’s an overlap linguistically and genetically that is evidence that E1B1b originated at least going back to the 600’s ad in the Arabian peninsula and is no surprise that modern Egypt has Arabic as a language and that it’s dominantly Muslim. Should we expect anything different for the genetics of modern Egyptians to be dominated by something that came out of Arabia. Definitively it came out of Arabia, not Africa. Egyptian Hieroglyphs and language are wholly African derived and developed, not Semitic/Mesopotamian; which isn’t the end of the story. Going back beyond the 600’s AD with E1b1b starting around 700 BC to 400 BC takes you over to the a branch labeled E1b1a of the E1b1 family’s common ancestor. E1b1a is one of the most dominant lineages in Sub-Saharan Africa; with its origins in West Africa following the Bantu language migration/expansion to the east and south on the continent around the 1500’s, 1400’s BC strictly on the continent of Africa. There are multiple lines of evidence of E1b1b that points towards its origins in Arabia yet somehow these two branches (E1b1a/E1b1b) were once the same. They shared a common ancestor up until the 700’s to 400’s BC. Going back before both of these, you have the kingdom of Aksum/Axum that connects northeast Africa and the Arabian peninsula; which seems to fit and imply an origin of E1b1b and E1b1a the ancestors to them somewhere over here geographically in Africa ending up in the Arabian peninsula. This given that Africa is surrounded by water and the Saharan desert kept invaders out, points to the origin for entry into Africa from the outside is down through northeastern Africa. All that to say the data seems to put these people, the ancestors to these groups in northeastern Africa and then something happens apparently in the 700’s to 400’s BC that sends them on their separate ways. This time frame overlaps the period of Egyptian history in which the Pharaohs were of Nubian origin (modern Sudan) up to the 25th Dynasty (approx. 720’s to 650’s BC) were dark-skinned. This aligns with the dates of the invasions by the Assyrians that sacked Egypt and drove-out the Nubian Pharaohs. To summarize E1b1, the ancestor of E1b1a and E1b1b appears to have been in the first millennium BC and later on split into these two groups with E1b1b as the dominant Egyptian male going back 1600-1400 years. Arabs themselves at least in-part appear to have originated from a north east African group who themselves may have sat on the throne of Ancient Egypt. I write this to condemn efforts to erase African/Sub-Saharan contributions and aboriginal populations to and of Ancient Egypt. Imhotep40 ( talk) 18:34, 18 July 2023 (UTC) [1]
References
The two statements are the second two statements that are added from Ehret's "History of Africa" book, which are inserted in the article (by the user WikiUser4020 of course) as a criticism of Schuenemann et al.; neither of them is really criticizing anything. These two statements are: The statement: "Ehret also criticised the study for asserting that there was 'no sub-Saharan' component in the Egyptian population." And the statement: "Ehret cited other genetic evidence which had identified the Horn of Africa as a source of a genetic marker 'M35 /215' Y-chromosome lineage for a significant population component which moved north from that region into Egypt and the Levant."
Ehret says in the appendix in his book, p.167: "The assertion in a recent such article, for example, that there is 'no sub-Saharan' component in the Egyptian population betrays an unexamined assumption that traces back to racist, early twentieth-century scholarship—that there was something like a 'true Negro' type, and that this pure type was represented by certain coastal West African populations." By "such article" he means Schuenemann et al.
The first statement is just weird, since Schuenemann et al. does give us the percentage of this so-called "sub-Saharan" component in both the ancient and modern Egyptian samples. So, what is this even a criticism of? To include this we have to counter it, which is redundant and needless to begin with, and will enlarge the overall presentation of Schuenemann et al. even more. Others will needlessly try to counter this, which will be counterproductive and a bloat. (Side remark: the genetic make-up of the Egyptians, or any bias in any study about the Egyptians, concerns the Egyptians only, it doesn't, and shouldn't, concern sub-Saharans in anyway, particularly not some sub-Saharan in the UK or the US. It seems that this is tough for some to understand.)
The second statement about the origin of M35 and M215 is just picked from Ehret, p.97, and inserted here as a criticism! Criticism of what? Ehret is neither presenting this as a criticism of anything, nor is he saying anything new about the origin of M35 and M215. And, as I said in my edit summary, these two clades are not themselves the clades that are majorly found in Egyptians, their subclades are. This statement is not criticizing anything either, nor is it a criticism to begin with.
I tried to remove this, and explained clearly in the edit summary, but my edit was reverted by the user (WikiUser4020) who added these statements of course. So, once again, additions from this specific user trying to insert the word "sub-Saharan" in the article as many times as possible to push his/her ill Afrocentric/Blackcentric ideology across many articles about Egypt. Also, this user always reverts and never resorts to the talk page until others do. Masrialltheway ( talk) 07:30, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
"The first statement is just weird, since Schuenemann et al. does give us the percentage of this so-called "sub-Saharan" component in both the ancient and modern Egyptian samples. So, what is this even a criticism of? To include this we have to counter it, which is redundant and needless to begin with, and will enlarge the overall presentation of Schuenemann et al. even more. Others will needlessly try to counter this, which will be counterproductive and a bloat" - Wikipedia Editors are to provide the information and reliable sources not to add our own personal, non-professional assessment of the sources. Ehret has expressed his view on the 2017 study explicitly and I have included it in the main article as he clearly states.
This highlights your ignorance and prejudices perfectly.
An alternative solution is to amended the title of the section from "criticism" to "responses" to the 2017 study. This would save us time debating the issue back and forth as has been the case with previous threads. There is no issue with Ehret being cited as he references opposing genetic evidence in evaluating the study. WikiUser4020 ( talk) 09:39, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Ehret also criticised the study for asserting that there was “no sub-Saharan genetic component” in the Egyptian population and cited genetic evidence which had already identified the Horn of Africa as a source of a genetic marker “M35 /215” Y-chromosome lineage for a significant population component which moved north from that region into Egypt and the Levant, the main problem here is synthesis. Ehret mentions Scheunemann's article on pp. 83-84 and then again on page 167. There is no mention of this article on page 97, so adding this information to the article constitutes a synthesis by the editor who wrote it. Again, please be concise and civil in the replies and let's focus on this statement without going off tangent. Alaexis ¿question? 18:28, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
Therefore, I will add the following short counter-statement with the sources for it, including Schuenemann et al. and another study on ancient Egyptians and other several studies that show the subclades that are actually found in Egypt:
"However, the M35/M215 clades are not themselves the clades that are found neither in Egyptians from Schuenemann et al. nor in Egyptians from other studies, their subclades are the ones found, which did not originate in the Horn of Africa or East Africa, and which originated in North Africa (including Egypt), the Near East, and possibly one subclade either in Southeastern Europe or in the Near East." With the sources cited at the end.
This is essential, as this "response/criticism" is making the study seem like it is saying something that it is not saying, we have to neutralize this before it gets out of hand with others countering it in the wrong way. The guidelines recommend aiming for article stability, and I want to achieve this for this article. Masrialltheway ( talk) 02:08, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Also, Schuenemann et al did not explicitly discuss the clades of the E1b haplogroup. They just identified this haplogroup and said it was common to North Africa. Ehret points the parent haplogroup was already carried from early groups from the Horn of Africa migrating into Egypt 17,000 years ago. WikiUser4020 ( talk) 05:17, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
The other cited genetic studies discuss the subclades and the origins in pre-historic times thousands and thousands of years before the Egyptians civilization and in the Paleolithic, as well as the Holocene, not just their predominance in modern Egyptians, these genetic studies are doing extensive work and very technical analysis and reach their very cogent conclusions, and are not simply reciting the subclades predominance in modern Egyptians (but that is very important too). I already know that you don't really have a good grasp on this. So stop making unscrupulous edits saying it is merely about modern Egyptians, because now I have to correct this. Wait for others to respond, and be prepared to move on as I have moved on before from other things. The same balancing and countering will be done with any "reponse/criticisim" that seems contentious or out of place in any way.
My point in questioning Ehret is stated above, I have state exactly why his statement is problematic, and all you can give me is that I'm being "highly contentious and subjective", for which I will not repeat myself. Ehret points out what Ehret points out and you already added this to the article. The reader on the other hand must receive a clear picture when what is "pointed out" is not really cogent and imprecise as to what he is "responding" to, and I already stated the reasons, and the reader must receive a clear picture of what subclades are found and their origin, because, again, as I have already said this above, this "response/criticism" is making the study seem like it is saying something that it is not saying.
Final point, you added the word "suggest" to the statements. We can vacuously say "suggest" about anything said in any study about any subclade, including the markers that Ehret is talking about. The cited genetic studies are not merely "suggesting", they are doing extensive genetic work and very technical analysis and reach very cogent conclusions. Therefore, just as you are citing your Ehret with full force, the genetic studies are to be cited in full force without any such vacuous words. I will correct the use of the word "suggest" here. Stop making these kinds of "tweaks". Masrialltheway ( talk) 08:44, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Scheunemannet al's comments
Concerns about neutrality and consensus vote
WikiUser4020 ( talk) 09:08, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
As to the content, which is what I'm concerned with here, I will respond to your 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 in the same order:
1) If you are talking about this talk page discussion, then we are allowed to discuss, but if you are talking about the article's content, then don't use words like "interpretation" because they mean something specific on Wikipedia, which is not done here in any way. Again, and I won't keep repeating myself to you, the first two studies (Schuenemann et al. and Yatsishina et al.) show what subclades are found in ancient Egyptians, they are not M35/M215, their subclades are, as stated. So, yes, it is accurate. The other studies do not merely cite the presence and predominance in modern Egyptians, nor are they about modern Egyptians only, they are doing extensive technical genetic analysis on several populations to trace the origins of the subclades, TMRCA, and their precise time of dispersal and distribution, etc., that is why, along with other such earlier blunders, I'm saying that I, and doubtless other editors, know that you don't have a grasp on this; let me give you a simple hint: modern Egyptians, and modern populations in general, did not pop into existence yesterday out of thin air, they have a genome/DNA that traces back to the beginning of our species itself, and geneticist can use these genetic data from several populations in a very technical extensive analysis to estimate TMRCA and origins, time of dispersal, and trace back human migration, etc. That is also how the origins of the markers that Ehret is talking about were determined (surprise, I know). You don't even know how others can tell that you don't have a grasp on what you are on about. You think this is about modern Egyptian (not to mention the several modern populations in these studies) as if they just popped into existence yesterday out of thin air. Just stop with this already, because I hate repetition, it is very counterproductive.
2) Nothing worth responding to here, and it is not about the content, your ill Afrocentric/Blackcentric ideology is clear as day in all your edits, and I told you before that I will bring it up every time I see you pushing it on any article about Egypt, because I want others to notice and be alert to this.
3) Human movement have been happening for tens of thousands of years, by and large everyone is associated with everyone in one way or another depending on how far back you want to go. The issue at hand is specific, and is addressed. So, nothing worth responding to here as well.
4) This is not about the content either, but no one has attacked "your person", only the ill Afrocentric/Blackcentric ideology. I have told you before what my views are when you started speculating, I told you that I'm an Egyptian and I abhor the black-white dichotomy fights over Egypt, this nonsense has nothing to do with Egypt, and I simply don't want the Egyptians to be misrepresented in this particular article (or any article), specially by Afrocentrist/Blackcentrists and their ill ideology, and given the nature of this article, "not misrepresenting the Egyptians" means precisely "not misrepresenting the studies about them in anyway", so you can stop acting like my views are a mystery as you are doing above, I'm proud enough to state my views clearly, you can deny yours as much as you want, they are obvious from your edits. And, I didn't invent the term "Blackcentrism", that is what Egyptians here in Egypt are calling the ill Afrocentrism ideology, with disgust (ethnic erasure of an entire people, which is tacit in your "nationality vs. ethnicity" comment, warrants disgust, and is not lost on anyone). Egyptians call it "Blackcentrism" because that's what it is.
5) I addressed everything thoroughly, and if your Ehret's "criticism/reponse", which is making the study seem like it is saying something that it is not saying, is to stay, then the balancing statement about what the results from the actual genetic studies are must stay as well, to give the reader the correct picture, and to keep the article stable. At this point, nothing is to change whatsoever without consensus here first, because we are going to chase our tails, I initially wanted Ehret's two statements to be removed, but I can't do this since there is a dispute and I respected this from the beginning, and you must be held to the same standard as well. Attempts at edit-warring "tweaks" to change the content are not acceptable in any way. Input from other editors and establishing consensus here is the way to go, if other editors so wish. Masrialltheway ( talk) 11:51, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Now, to the actual thing that matters here. Luis et al. state: "The percentage of these M35 haplogroups is >35% in Tanzania and Egypt, whereas it is less than half of that value in Oman and Kenya." And then state that out of M35: "Nearly all of the E3b-M35 chromosomes in Egypt (92%) and Oman (100%) collections harbor downstream mutations (E3b1-M78, E3b2-M81, and E3b3-M123), which are absent in the sub-Saharan populations." You will never achieve anything by trying to quote the study carelessly. I can go into as much details about this as necessary, as well as from the other studies, so be careful. The problem is that you still think that this is merely about modern Egyptians in these studies, even after all the explanation I gave you in my previous replies. Both of us already stated that we are going to leave it to other editors to see if a consensus can be established (also, things don't work on the talk page through a vote, they work through discussion and consensus), but you always feel the need to have the last word, and I will reply, at will, to whatever you say whenever I think a reply should be put forth. Masrialltheway ( talk) 18:38, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
WikiUser4020, you can find some relationship between any two parts of any book. We should not and cannot cite the whole book here and the policy is clear about the inferences made by editors. I've been bold and removed the whole discussion of the clades - I can't see how it helps the reader. You are welcome to seek outside opinion, for example via WP:3O or WP:RFC. Alaexis ¿question? 18:23, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Responses to the 2017 DNA study from other related non-genetic interdisciplinary fields: The 2017 study has generated academic responses from scholars from other related, non-genetic disciplines, such as biological anthropology, archaeology, linguistics, and history. The following are the responses from scholars from these other related, non-genetic disciplines. These following commentaries are not genetic studies themselves...). Add some coughs, and we get the conciseness of Anne Elk's Theory on Brontosauruses. – Austronesier ( talk) 18:44, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
There is a difference between prehistoric human movement on the one hand and civilization on the other; like any other population on the planet, Egyptians have a common ancestor with their neighbors from several directions, and the circle gets wider the farther back we go, but Egyptian civilization is Egyptian and Egyptian only. Egypt is not some modern bordered invention, Egypt, km.t, has always been delineated from its neighbors by the Egyptians, and the Egyptians, rmṯ n km.t, made sharp distinction between themselves and their neighbors, they fought those neighbors in the south and in the north(east), took captives from those Kushitic enemies in the south and Asiatic enemies in the northeast, depicted them with sharp distinction from themselves, and even drew them on their footwear, which is symbolically obvious and some consider it bigotry (which has its justification), and it is also, methinks, a form of Egyptian humor. Egyptians also used all kinds of fun expressions to describe these foreigners/foreign enemies.
It is not all about this user, it is not at all about this user, it is about the ill Afrocentric/Blackcentric ideology itself. I'm avoiding this user actually, but every time I make an edit this user jumps at it to revert immediately, sometimes in a matter of seconds actually, or to "tweak" it to fundamentally change it, or to make things bloated to the point of heavily taxing the reader. I just simply want this article to be a good presentation of the genetic history of Egypt, that can be read to learn smoothly about the major scientific work done in that regard, including being read particularly by Egyptians themselves to learn about the scientific work without having to suffer through "the controversy". I believe that this is not lost on you Austronesier, but perhaps I wasn't very detailed in that side remark.
At any rate, does what I'm saying about the lead statement that I want to restore sound valid to you? Is there a chance to restore it, as I believe it is clearer? Or perhaps we can simply append the short sentence "These responses are not genetic studies themselves" to the end of the current lead statement. I just want this particular point about the "responses" to be clear. Masrialltheway ( talk) 22:42, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
This is just a point of clarification. Ehret in reference to the “significant component” of M35/215 genetic markers among early Egyptian populations. He cited an article written by Keita, "History in the interpretation of the pattern of p49a,f TaqI RFLP Y‐chromosome variation in Egypt: A consideration of multiple lines of evidence" on page 180.
Keita stated in the cited article that: “Haplotype V is associated with the M35/215 (or 215/ M35) subclade, as is XI (in Africa)” (p562)
Keita includes the genetic data from the Lucotte and Mercer (2003) study which shows that Haplotype V and XI appear among a rate of Egyptians at 39.4% and 18.9%.
The table data which cited the Lucotte and Mercer (2002) data shows this varies across regions:
Lower Egyptians V Haplotype: 51.9% VI Haplotype: 11.7%
Upper Egyptians V Haplotype: 24.2% VI Haplotype: 28.8%
The pdf article is available here: [1]
Keita in another article, “Geography, selected Afro-Asiatic families, and Y Chromosome lineage variation: An exploration in linguistics and phylogeography” cites several genetic studies which show a significant amount of M35 among Egyptians.
Hammer 1999 - M35 is identified at a rate of 54.4% among a sample of 58.
Scozzari et al 1999- M35 is identified at 60% among Northern Egyptians and 38.3% among Southern Egyptians.
Luis et al 2004. - M35 is identified among 36 out of the 147 samples. The M35 count does not seem to be recorded on the Wikipedia table section on modern Egyptians.
Keita stated in the final summary(p13): "It is of interest that the M35 and M2 lineages are united by a mutation - the PN2 transition. This PN2 defined clade originated in East Africa, where various populations have a notable frequency of its underived state. This would suggest that an ancient population in East Africa, or more correctly its males, form the basis of the ancestors of all African upper Paleolithic populations - and their subsequent descendants in the present day".
Link accessible here: [2] (p3-15)
WikiUser4020 ( talk) 06:00, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
References
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It has become increasingly apparent that original research has been featured alongside several studies. This includes references to haplogroup predictors such as Nevgen and other publications which are not referenced in the specificed study i.e. Gad 2020. The article should only make reference to the actual conclusions and statements in the specified study otherwise this suggests misleading conclusions to the general reader and violates Wikipedia guidelines on original research. I have deleted several, examples of original research but this action should be taken by other editors per consenus as I will no longer be active on Wikipedia. WikiUser4020 ( talk) 07:44, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
The 2017 DNA study found that Ancient Egyptians had a genetic profile similar to that of modern Egyptians and had a high affinity with the population of the modern Near East is flawed and should not be listed in the overview as fact. The study took DNA samples from a single graveyard and tried to apply the findings to all of Egypt. This study has been criticized by other scholars for its sample bias. 213.114.159.171 ( talk) 20:31, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
The user Sarah SchneiderCH has removed the image caption of the first image in the article several times now without any valid explanation whatsoever. The last removal is in this
diff, where she says in her edit summary: "Are you trying to impose the theory here and to promote an idea through Wikipedia, the sources still do not mention this clearly, and among them is what is repeated only to obfuscate." And then in a comment she said: "The sources you provided in your submission are not scientific or universally accepted, and they do not align with the existing content."
What Sarah SchneiderCH is saying is absolutely false, every single bit of it. These cited sources (
1,
2,
3) are scientific genetic studies, they are the epitome of WP:RS. They absolutely corroborate the statements they are directly cited for in the caption. Here is the image caption that Sarah SchneiderCH removed, with the citation from the aforementioned scientific genetic studies: "Two haplogroups, E1b1b and J, that are carried by both ancient and modern Egyptians.[
1], [
2], [
3 The subclade E-M78 of E1b1b is suggested to have originated in Northeast Africa in the area of Egypt and Libya, and is more predominant in Egypt.[
3" This image caption should be restored. Noting also that this is an article about Egyptians, not about the Middle East or North Africa in general, and the image caption has to relate the subject of the article as per WP:CAP.
Masrialltheway (
talk) 00:15, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
The second sentence in the caption is: "The subclade E-M78 of E1b1b is suggested to have originated in Northeast Africa in the area of Egypt and Libya, and is more predominant in Egypt." First, the Categorization of Northeast Africa as Egypt and Libya in this study, which is mentioned above, is in “Supplementary figure 1” and “Table 1” in Cruciani et al. under the categorization “Northeastern Africa”, starting from population number 42 and ending with 48. Something to note here is that Cruciani et al. (2007), which is cited here, supersedes earlier studies, which Cruciani et al. criticized for lacking data from Northeast Africa, which Cruciani et al. included (Egypt and Libya in the study), Cruciani et al. is also testing and reevaluating his own hypotheses in the earlier Cruciani et al. (2004) in light of including data from Northeast Africa. So, I will provide the direct quotes. Here are quotes from Cruciani et al.:
Quote from the abstract of the study: "The geographic and quantitative analyses of haplogroup and microsatellite diversity is strongly suggestive of a northeastern African origin of E-M78, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between northeastern and eastern Africa (at least 2 episodes between 23.9–17.3 ky and 18.0–5.9 ky ago), trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky), and flow from northeastern Africa to western Asia between 20.0 and 6.8 ky ago.
[3]"
Quote from the the section "Locating the Origin of Haplogroup E-M78" in the study: "In conclusion, the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity are strongly suggestive of a northeastern rather than an eastern African origin of E-M78. Northeastern Africa thus seems to be the place from where E-M78 chromosomes started to disperse to other African regions and outside Africa.
[3]" This conclusion is based on the discussion that precedes it in this section in the study, please see it as well as it contains important information about the clades and their presence in Northeastern Africa, Eastern Africa, and even Northwestern Africa; for instance, that: "E-V32, that represents about 82% of the eastern African E-M78 chromosomes, is a relatively recent terminal branch of E-V12 (8.5 ky).
[3]"
Quote from the section "A Corridor for Bidirectional Migrations between Northeastern and Eastern Africa" in the study: "The evolutionary processes that determined the wide dispersal of the E-M78 lineages from northeastern Africa to other regions can now be addressed ... A northeastern African origin for haplogroup E-M78 implies that E-M215 chromosomes were introduced in northeastern Africa from eastern Africa in the Upper Paleolithic, between 23.9 ky ago (the upper bound for E-M215 TMRCA in eastern Africa) and 17.3 ky ago (the lower bound for E-M78 TMRCA here estimated, fig. 1). In turn, the presence of E-M78 chromosomes in eastern Africa can be only explained through a back migration of chromosomes that had acquired the M78 mutation in northeastern Africa. The nested arrangement of haplogroups E-V12 and E-V32 defines an upper and lower bound for this episode, that is, 18.0 ky and 5.9 ky, respectively. These were probably not massive migrations, because the present high frequencies of E-V12 chromosomes in eastern Africa are entirely accounted for by E-V32, which most likely underwent subsequent geographically restricted demographic expansions involving well differentiated molecular types (fig. 3A). Conversely, the absence of E-V12* chromosomes in eastern Africa is compatible with loss by drift.
[3]"
I have shown, thus, that every single bit of this caption holds, and every single bit of it is corroborated by the scientific genetic studies that are cited. I'm focusing only on what is stated in the caption precisely, and nothing else whatsoever. Noting again that this an article about Egyptians, not about the Middle East or North Africa in general, as I remarked above, the statements should be directly relating the Egyptians, specially in an image caption, as per WP:CAP, which this caption does. Again, this caption should be restored. Masrialltheway ( talk) 19:58, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
It is eclectic as well. It should be exactly as it is stated in the source:A 2017 DNA study found that Ancient Egyptians had a genetic profile similar to that of modern Egyptians and had a high affinity with the population of the modern Near East.
A criticism of the study is not mentioned as wellA 2017 DNA study on ancient Egyptian mummies found that ancient Egyptians had more genetic similarities with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians.
I have waited for five days since my last comment, and so far
Sarah SchneiderCH has not offered any valid argument, neither for nor against anything, in her comments she just kept talking about other things that are not at all the issue at hand here, this is a form of
red herring, not to mention the absolutely wrong claims about the genetic studies (she is calling them "unscientific"), and not to mention that the caption was stable for months before Sarah SchneiderCH force-removed it in a dispute with another user who disagreed (see my comments above), and then, without any honest discussion here, she proceeded to say here above that she agrees with her version, not minding that
this is not a substitute for discussion (PNSD). There seems to be a general behavioral issue with the user Sarah SchneiderCH (
see ongoing report of her here by other editors, where the current discussion is cited among other disputes). On the other hand, I focused only on the issue at hand, i.e., what is stated in caption that I want to restore, and I explained everything in detail in my comments with data and quotes from the cited studies, showing that the claims made are absolutely incorrect, along with presenting an overall argument for the caption I want to restore, I even touched in my previous comment on the two sources used by Sarah SchneiderCH for her version of the caption.
Now, given that both content from both versions of the caption are well cited from
RS, and given that the sources in both versions of the caption are not contradictory, in fact they are complementary, and given that both statments in both versions of the caption are not contradictory, in fact they are complementary as well, and as per
WP:RMV, both content from both versions of the caption are to remain in the article, until there is any valid argument for the removal of anything, and nothing should be removed unless there is a thorough discussion here on the talk page first, and only after consensus based on the discussion; any attempt at removing anything without a thorough discussion here, and only after consensus based on the discussion, is to be considered a poor attempt to have the upper hand by an unexplained removal of content so as to avoid an honest discussion. Sarah SchneiderCH is not to ignore the discussion and provide nothing, nil, and then simply revert and edit-war. Therefore, I will proceed, per the guidelines (
WP:RMV), to include the statements from both versions of the caption, until a valid argument against anything is presented here and consensus is established based on the discussion. Or we can simply consider this inclusion of both statements from both versions to be an obvious compromise that, admittedly, both of us have overlooked, which could have saved us the trouble from the beginning; if this is to be considered a compromise, it can save us both the trouble of pursuing this further, and we can both move on.
Masrialltheway (
talk) 17:07, 19 May 2023 (UTC)
References
Tripling of the population sizes in c. 500 AD (Arabian Peninsula, Syria/Labanon/Jordan/Israel/Iraq, Turkey, Iran) is evidence is consistent with the origin of e1b1b in the Arabian peninsula, not elsewhere in the middle east and not in the continent of Africa. A finer point is to look at where Afro-Asiatic languages are spoken today. Arabic is a language from the Arab Arabian peninsula that belongs to the Afro-Asiatic language family, there’s an overlap linguistically and genetically that is evidence that E1B1b originated at least going back to the 600’s ad in the Arabian peninsula and is no surprise that modern Egypt has Arabic as a language and that it’s dominantly Muslim. Should we expect anything different for the genetics of modern Egyptians to be dominated by something that came out of Arabia. Definitively it came out of Arabia, not Africa. Egyptian Hieroglyphs and language are wholly African derived and developed, not Semitic/Mesopotamian; which isn’t the end of the story. Going back beyond the 600’s AD with E1b1b starting around 700 BC to 400 BC takes you over to the a branch labeled E1b1a of the E1b1 family’s common ancestor. E1b1a is one of the most dominant lineages in Sub-Saharan Africa; with its origins in West Africa following the Bantu language migration/expansion to the east and south on the continent around the 1500’s, 1400’s BC strictly on the continent of Africa. There are multiple lines of evidence of E1b1b that points towards its origins in Arabia yet somehow these two branches (E1b1a/E1b1b) were once the same. They shared a common ancestor up until the 700’s to 400’s BC. Going back before both of these, you have the kingdom of Aksum/Axum that connects northeast Africa and the Arabian peninsula; which seems to fit and imply an origin of E1b1b and E1b1a the ancestors to them somewhere over here geographically in Africa ending up in the Arabian peninsula. This given that Africa is surrounded by water and the Saharan desert kept invaders out, points to the origin for entry into Africa from the outside is down through northeastern Africa. All that to say the data seems to put these people, the ancestors to these groups in northeastern Africa and then something happens apparently in the 700’s to 400’s BC that sends them on their separate ways. This time frame overlaps the period of Egyptian history in which the Pharaohs were of Nubian origin (modern Sudan) up to the 25th Dynasty (approx. 720’s to 650’s BC) were dark-skinned. This aligns with the dates of the invasions by the Assyrians that sacked Egypt and drove-out the Nubian Pharaohs. To summarize E1b1, the ancestor of E1b1a and E1b1b appears to have been in the first millennium BC and later on split into these two groups with E1b1b as the dominant Egyptian male going back 1600-1400 years. Arabs themselves at least in-part appear to have originated from a north east African group who themselves may have sat on the throne of Ancient Egypt. I write this to condemn efforts to erase African/Sub-Saharan contributions and aboriginal populations to and of Ancient Egypt. Imhotep40 ( talk) 18:34, 18 July 2023 (UTC) [1]
References
The two statements are the second two statements that are added from Ehret's "History of Africa" book, which are inserted in the article (by the user WikiUser4020 of course) as a criticism of Schuenemann et al.; neither of them is really criticizing anything. These two statements are: The statement: "Ehret also criticised the study for asserting that there was 'no sub-Saharan' component in the Egyptian population." And the statement: "Ehret cited other genetic evidence which had identified the Horn of Africa as a source of a genetic marker 'M35 /215' Y-chromosome lineage for a significant population component which moved north from that region into Egypt and the Levant."
Ehret says in the appendix in his book, p.167: "The assertion in a recent such article, for example, that there is 'no sub-Saharan' component in the Egyptian population betrays an unexamined assumption that traces back to racist, early twentieth-century scholarship—that there was something like a 'true Negro' type, and that this pure type was represented by certain coastal West African populations." By "such article" he means Schuenemann et al.
The first statement is just weird, since Schuenemann et al. does give us the percentage of this so-called "sub-Saharan" component in both the ancient and modern Egyptian samples. So, what is this even a criticism of? To include this we have to counter it, which is redundant and needless to begin with, and will enlarge the overall presentation of Schuenemann et al. even more. Others will needlessly try to counter this, which will be counterproductive and a bloat. (Side remark: the genetic make-up of the Egyptians, or any bias in any study about the Egyptians, concerns the Egyptians only, it doesn't, and shouldn't, concern sub-Saharans in anyway, particularly not some sub-Saharan in the UK or the US. It seems that this is tough for some to understand.)
The second statement about the origin of M35 and M215 is just picked from Ehret, p.97, and inserted here as a criticism! Criticism of what? Ehret is neither presenting this as a criticism of anything, nor is he saying anything new about the origin of M35 and M215. And, as I said in my edit summary, these two clades are not themselves the clades that are majorly found in Egyptians, their subclades are. This statement is not criticizing anything either, nor is it a criticism to begin with.
I tried to remove this, and explained clearly in the edit summary, but my edit was reverted by the user (WikiUser4020) who added these statements of course. So, once again, additions from this specific user trying to insert the word "sub-Saharan" in the article as many times as possible to push his/her ill Afrocentric/Blackcentric ideology across many articles about Egypt. Also, this user always reverts and never resorts to the talk page until others do. Masrialltheway ( talk) 07:30, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
"The first statement is just weird, since Schuenemann et al. does give us the percentage of this so-called "sub-Saharan" component in both the ancient and modern Egyptian samples. So, what is this even a criticism of? To include this we have to counter it, which is redundant and needless to begin with, and will enlarge the overall presentation of Schuenemann et al. even more. Others will needlessly try to counter this, which will be counterproductive and a bloat" - Wikipedia Editors are to provide the information and reliable sources not to add our own personal, non-professional assessment of the sources. Ehret has expressed his view on the 2017 study explicitly and I have included it in the main article as he clearly states.
This highlights your ignorance and prejudices perfectly.
An alternative solution is to amended the title of the section from "criticism" to "responses" to the 2017 study. This would save us time debating the issue back and forth as has been the case with previous threads. There is no issue with Ehret being cited as he references opposing genetic evidence in evaluating the study. WikiUser4020 ( talk) 09:39, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Ehret also criticised the study for asserting that there was “no sub-Saharan genetic component” in the Egyptian population and cited genetic evidence which had already identified the Horn of Africa as a source of a genetic marker “M35 /215” Y-chromosome lineage for a significant population component which moved north from that region into Egypt and the Levant, the main problem here is synthesis. Ehret mentions Scheunemann's article on pp. 83-84 and then again on page 167. There is no mention of this article on page 97, so adding this information to the article constitutes a synthesis by the editor who wrote it. Again, please be concise and civil in the replies and let's focus on this statement without going off tangent. Alaexis ¿question? 18:28, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
Therefore, I will add the following short counter-statement with the sources for it, including Schuenemann et al. and another study on ancient Egyptians and other several studies that show the subclades that are actually found in Egypt:
"However, the M35/M215 clades are not themselves the clades that are found neither in Egyptians from Schuenemann et al. nor in Egyptians from other studies, their subclades are the ones found, which did not originate in the Horn of Africa or East Africa, and which originated in North Africa (including Egypt), the Near East, and possibly one subclade either in Southeastern Europe or in the Near East." With the sources cited at the end.
This is essential, as this "response/criticism" is making the study seem like it is saying something that it is not saying, we have to neutralize this before it gets out of hand with others countering it in the wrong way. The guidelines recommend aiming for article stability, and I want to achieve this for this article. Masrialltheway ( talk) 02:08, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Also, Schuenemann et al did not explicitly discuss the clades of the E1b haplogroup. They just identified this haplogroup and said it was common to North Africa. Ehret points the parent haplogroup was already carried from early groups from the Horn of Africa migrating into Egypt 17,000 years ago. WikiUser4020 ( talk) 05:17, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
The other cited genetic studies discuss the subclades and the origins in pre-historic times thousands and thousands of years before the Egyptians civilization and in the Paleolithic, as well as the Holocene, not just their predominance in modern Egyptians, these genetic studies are doing extensive work and very technical analysis and reach their very cogent conclusions, and are not simply reciting the subclades predominance in modern Egyptians (but that is very important too). I already know that you don't really have a good grasp on this. So stop making unscrupulous edits saying it is merely about modern Egyptians, because now I have to correct this. Wait for others to respond, and be prepared to move on as I have moved on before from other things. The same balancing and countering will be done with any "reponse/criticisim" that seems contentious or out of place in any way.
My point in questioning Ehret is stated above, I have state exactly why his statement is problematic, and all you can give me is that I'm being "highly contentious and subjective", for which I will not repeat myself. Ehret points out what Ehret points out and you already added this to the article. The reader on the other hand must receive a clear picture when what is "pointed out" is not really cogent and imprecise as to what he is "responding" to, and I already stated the reasons, and the reader must receive a clear picture of what subclades are found and their origin, because, again, as I have already said this above, this "response/criticism" is making the study seem like it is saying something that it is not saying.
Final point, you added the word "suggest" to the statements. We can vacuously say "suggest" about anything said in any study about any subclade, including the markers that Ehret is talking about. The cited genetic studies are not merely "suggesting", they are doing extensive genetic work and very technical analysis and reach very cogent conclusions. Therefore, just as you are citing your Ehret with full force, the genetic studies are to be cited in full force without any such vacuous words. I will correct the use of the word "suggest" here. Stop making these kinds of "tweaks". Masrialltheway ( talk) 08:44, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Scheunemannet al's comments
Concerns about neutrality and consensus vote
WikiUser4020 ( talk) 09:08, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
As to the content, which is what I'm concerned with here, I will respond to your 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 in the same order:
1) If you are talking about this talk page discussion, then we are allowed to discuss, but if you are talking about the article's content, then don't use words like "interpretation" because they mean something specific on Wikipedia, which is not done here in any way. Again, and I won't keep repeating myself to you, the first two studies (Schuenemann et al. and Yatsishina et al.) show what subclades are found in ancient Egyptians, they are not M35/M215, their subclades are, as stated. So, yes, it is accurate. The other studies do not merely cite the presence and predominance in modern Egyptians, nor are they about modern Egyptians only, they are doing extensive technical genetic analysis on several populations to trace the origins of the subclades, TMRCA, and their precise time of dispersal and distribution, etc., that is why, along with other such earlier blunders, I'm saying that I, and doubtless other editors, know that you don't have a grasp on this; let me give you a simple hint: modern Egyptians, and modern populations in general, did not pop into existence yesterday out of thin air, they have a genome/DNA that traces back to the beginning of our species itself, and geneticist can use these genetic data from several populations in a very technical extensive analysis to estimate TMRCA and origins, time of dispersal, and trace back human migration, etc. That is also how the origins of the markers that Ehret is talking about were determined (surprise, I know). You don't even know how others can tell that you don't have a grasp on what you are on about. You think this is about modern Egyptian (not to mention the several modern populations in these studies) as if they just popped into existence yesterday out of thin air. Just stop with this already, because I hate repetition, it is very counterproductive.
2) Nothing worth responding to here, and it is not about the content, your ill Afrocentric/Blackcentric ideology is clear as day in all your edits, and I told you before that I will bring it up every time I see you pushing it on any article about Egypt, because I want others to notice and be alert to this.
3) Human movement have been happening for tens of thousands of years, by and large everyone is associated with everyone in one way or another depending on how far back you want to go. The issue at hand is specific, and is addressed. So, nothing worth responding to here as well.
4) This is not about the content either, but no one has attacked "your person", only the ill Afrocentric/Blackcentric ideology. I have told you before what my views are when you started speculating, I told you that I'm an Egyptian and I abhor the black-white dichotomy fights over Egypt, this nonsense has nothing to do with Egypt, and I simply don't want the Egyptians to be misrepresented in this particular article (or any article), specially by Afrocentrist/Blackcentrists and their ill ideology, and given the nature of this article, "not misrepresenting the Egyptians" means precisely "not misrepresenting the studies about them in anyway", so you can stop acting like my views are a mystery as you are doing above, I'm proud enough to state my views clearly, you can deny yours as much as you want, they are obvious from your edits. And, I didn't invent the term "Blackcentrism", that is what Egyptians here in Egypt are calling the ill Afrocentrism ideology, with disgust (ethnic erasure of an entire people, which is tacit in your "nationality vs. ethnicity" comment, warrants disgust, and is not lost on anyone). Egyptians call it "Blackcentrism" because that's what it is.
5) I addressed everything thoroughly, and if your Ehret's "criticism/reponse", which is making the study seem like it is saying something that it is not saying, is to stay, then the balancing statement about what the results from the actual genetic studies are must stay as well, to give the reader the correct picture, and to keep the article stable. At this point, nothing is to change whatsoever without consensus here first, because we are going to chase our tails, I initially wanted Ehret's two statements to be removed, but I can't do this since there is a dispute and I respected this from the beginning, and you must be held to the same standard as well. Attempts at edit-warring "tweaks" to change the content are not acceptable in any way. Input from other editors and establishing consensus here is the way to go, if other editors so wish. Masrialltheway ( talk) 11:51, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Now, to the actual thing that matters here. Luis et al. state: "The percentage of these M35 haplogroups is >35% in Tanzania and Egypt, whereas it is less than half of that value in Oman and Kenya." And then state that out of M35: "Nearly all of the E3b-M35 chromosomes in Egypt (92%) and Oman (100%) collections harbor downstream mutations (E3b1-M78, E3b2-M81, and E3b3-M123), which are absent in the sub-Saharan populations." You will never achieve anything by trying to quote the study carelessly. I can go into as much details about this as necessary, as well as from the other studies, so be careful. The problem is that you still think that this is merely about modern Egyptians in these studies, even after all the explanation I gave you in my previous replies. Both of us already stated that we are going to leave it to other editors to see if a consensus can be established (also, things don't work on the talk page through a vote, they work through discussion and consensus), but you always feel the need to have the last word, and I will reply, at will, to whatever you say whenever I think a reply should be put forth. Masrialltheway ( talk) 18:38, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
WikiUser4020, you can find some relationship between any two parts of any book. We should not and cannot cite the whole book here and the policy is clear about the inferences made by editors. I've been bold and removed the whole discussion of the clades - I can't see how it helps the reader. You are welcome to seek outside opinion, for example via WP:3O or WP:RFC. Alaexis ¿question? 18:23, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Responses to the 2017 DNA study from other related non-genetic interdisciplinary fields: The 2017 study has generated academic responses from scholars from other related, non-genetic disciplines, such as biological anthropology, archaeology, linguistics, and history. The following are the responses from scholars from these other related, non-genetic disciplines. These following commentaries are not genetic studies themselves...). Add some coughs, and we get the conciseness of Anne Elk's Theory on Brontosauruses. – Austronesier ( talk) 18:44, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
There is a difference between prehistoric human movement on the one hand and civilization on the other; like any other population on the planet, Egyptians have a common ancestor with their neighbors from several directions, and the circle gets wider the farther back we go, but Egyptian civilization is Egyptian and Egyptian only. Egypt is not some modern bordered invention, Egypt, km.t, has always been delineated from its neighbors by the Egyptians, and the Egyptians, rmṯ n km.t, made sharp distinction between themselves and their neighbors, they fought those neighbors in the south and in the north(east), took captives from those Kushitic enemies in the south and Asiatic enemies in the northeast, depicted them with sharp distinction from themselves, and even drew them on their footwear, which is symbolically obvious and some consider it bigotry (which has its justification), and it is also, methinks, a form of Egyptian humor. Egyptians also used all kinds of fun expressions to describe these foreigners/foreign enemies.
It is not all about this user, it is not at all about this user, it is about the ill Afrocentric/Blackcentric ideology itself. I'm avoiding this user actually, but every time I make an edit this user jumps at it to revert immediately, sometimes in a matter of seconds actually, or to "tweak" it to fundamentally change it, or to make things bloated to the point of heavily taxing the reader. I just simply want this article to be a good presentation of the genetic history of Egypt, that can be read to learn smoothly about the major scientific work done in that regard, including being read particularly by Egyptians themselves to learn about the scientific work without having to suffer through "the controversy". I believe that this is not lost on you Austronesier, but perhaps I wasn't very detailed in that side remark.
At any rate, does what I'm saying about the lead statement that I want to restore sound valid to you? Is there a chance to restore it, as I believe it is clearer? Or perhaps we can simply append the short sentence "These responses are not genetic studies themselves" to the end of the current lead statement. I just want this particular point about the "responses" to be clear. Masrialltheway ( talk) 22:42, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
This is just a point of clarification. Ehret in reference to the “significant component” of M35/215 genetic markers among early Egyptian populations. He cited an article written by Keita, "History in the interpretation of the pattern of p49a,f TaqI RFLP Y‐chromosome variation in Egypt: A consideration of multiple lines of evidence" on page 180.
Keita stated in the cited article that: “Haplotype V is associated with the M35/215 (or 215/ M35) subclade, as is XI (in Africa)” (p562)
Keita includes the genetic data from the Lucotte and Mercer (2003) study which shows that Haplotype V and XI appear among a rate of Egyptians at 39.4% and 18.9%.
The table data which cited the Lucotte and Mercer (2002) data shows this varies across regions:
Lower Egyptians V Haplotype: 51.9% VI Haplotype: 11.7%
Upper Egyptians V Haplotype: 24.2% VI Haplotype: 28.8%
The pdf article is available here: [1]
Keita in another article, “Geography, selected Afro-Asiatic families, and Y Chromosome lineage variation: An exploration in linguistics and phylogeography” cites several genetic studies which show a significant amount of M35 among Egyptians.
Hammer 1999 - M35 is identified at a rate of 54.4% among a sample of 58.
Scozzari et al 1999- M35 is identified at 60% among Northern Egyptians and 38.3% among Southern Egyptians.
Luis et al 2004. - M35 is identified among 36 out of the 147 samples. The M35 count does not seem to be recorded on the Wikipedia table section on modern Egyptians.
Keita stated in the final summary(p13): "It is of interest that the M35 and M2 lineages are united by a mutation - the PN2 transition. This PN2 defined clade originated in East Africa, where various populations have a notable frequency of its underived state. This would suggest that an ancient population in East Africa, or more correctly its males, form the basis of the ancestors of all African upper Paleolithic populations - and their subsequent descendants in the present day".
Link accessible here: [2] (p3-15)
WikiUser4020 ( talk) 06:00, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
References