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The original entry read "irreconcilable genealogies" when referring to the different genealogies in Matthew and Luke. This is, however, a biased statement---they are certainly different, but that does not imply that they're "irreconcilable." That would be equivalent to someone from the other side of the discussion stating that they are "complementary genealogies." As such, I've changed the entry to read "different genealogies." I think this is fair to both sides of the discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by an unknown editor ( talk • contribs)
I have reverted the attached text relating to the genealogies;
There is a substantial scholarly tradition arsing out of proposed reconciliations of the Matthew and Luke genealogy traditions; but since neither genealogy is witnessed in the Diatessaron, the matter is irrelevant to this article, much better in Genealogy of Jesus. TomHennell ( talk) 17:13, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Anonymous, the word "different" is perfect. Providing a neutral and factual point-of-view is Pro-Wikipedian.
Wetman, I agree. The article should report how the different genealogies are reconcilable, if they are.
Anonymous, thank you for your reconciling contribution.
LadyMargo ( talk) 00:22, 24 April 2014 (UTC)Lady Margo
TomHennell: You stated, "I have had to revert this again. Please don't indulge in edit wars - discuss changes here; and respect any consensus thats is reached."
You wrongfully reverted it. Just because you do not agree with it, it does not mean that you can revert it. What you wrote is equivalent to 2+2=5 but not to 2+2=4. The two genealogies are not contradictory but different and an accurate explanation has been given, which you removed. I was not indulging in edit wars but providing accurate information. I will not respect your inaccurate information nor anyones inaccurate information. You are not fit to discuss this matter with because you obviously are ignorant of the fact that 2+2=4. As for the healing of the blind men: When sports journalists report about a sports game, they do not report every single thing. If one sports journalist reports that 2 football players got hurt and a second sports journalist reports that a football player got hurt, it does not mean that they reported contradictory information but different information.
You stated, "It also helps, and is good Wiki-manners, if editors identify themselves." That is your opinion and I do not agree with you. I have been writing & editing on Wikipedia for 5 years and never had an account & never identified myself. There is no need for it. Wikipedia is about articles and not about the people who write and edit articles.
You stated, that McFall "essentially proposes that Tatian saw them as 'duplications' not 'contradictions', and omitted them for that reason." So, a 21st Century scholar's ASSUMPTION is your preference over THE FACT that the genealogies were omitted because Tatian believed that the flesh of Jesus was imaginary (Gnostic view) but the genealogies show that Jesus was born of the seed of David after the flesh?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.30.250.8 ( talk) 23:00, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Lady Margo: Thank you for being appreciative of my contribution, which reconciled the different genealogies but it was reverted by a person who is obviously ignorant of the fact that it is relevant information and linked "genealogies" to a Wikipedia article, which has MANY errors. He is also ignorant of the fact that 2+2=4; there are no contradictions among the 4 gospels.
I have re-edited the text to be more consistent with the entry on Tatian, and to take into account recent manuscript discoveries TomHennell 11:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
How is it that a date of c. 175 AD is set for this when Bruce Metzger (reflected over at ntcanon.org) puts a date of 150-160 AD? 15 years makes a difference.
Sntjohnny 16:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I note that User:Carnegiecarnage has edited the date to 250 - 300. The corollary of this is that Tatian cannot be the author - and therefore that the current work (or rather the original form if it) cannot be the work identified as Tatian's harmony. Does anything substantiate this late dating? TomHennell ( talk) 22:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Apparently not. It is actually possible that the Gospel of John was being written about the time of Tatian's Diatessaron, or was not widely read at that time. According to Helmut Koester, professor of New Testament Studies at Harvard University, in his book "History and Literature of Early Christianity" page 32, The Gospel of John was not included. 166.203.44.113 ( talk) 22:49, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I stand corrected- I did re-read Koerster, and concur with your article. Sometimes we see what we want to see. 32.178.22.125 ( talk) 14:27, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
01/04/09 The title says "Diatessaron" but the actual article refers to the "Diatesseron"
--- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.215.79.212 ( talk) 05:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Now why on earth is: [Ammonius Saccas|Ammonius Saccas who taught Origen and Plotinus] really a useful way to do this? The issue of the (possible!) multiple Ammonius Saccases is explored in the Ammonius Saccas entry. --MichaelTinkler
I have been reading through Petersen's 1994 opus magnum on the history of research on the Diatessaron, and I came across some interesting observations that I thought were worth noting.
The first one is about the great light on the water during Jesus' baptism which is thought to have been in the Diatessarion. Examples of the great light can be found in Codex Vercellensis (Codex a) and Codex Sangermanensis I (Codex g1) as well as the Pepysian Gospel Harmony. It is also found in fragments of the Gospel of the Ebionites and the Gospel of the Hebrews preserved in quotations by the early Church Fathers. Petersen has an interesting discussion about this on pp.14-22; he speculates that this tradition is related to the fire on the water during Jesus' baptism described by Justin Martyr in Dialogue with Trypho 88.3 (c. 160). Petersen notes that the words for light and fire are very different in Greek (translated "phos" and "pyros", respectively), but they are homophones in Aramaic (translated "nuhra" and "nura", respectively). He credits scholar David Levinson with this insight and conjectures that both variants derive from an earlier common Jewish-Christian tradition.
The second observation comes from a later chapter with 8 examples of readings that Petersen thinks are most likely to have come from the Diatessaron. In Exhibit 8 on pp.414-20, Petersen describes an alternate reading of Luke 23.48 found in Codex g1 following Jesus' death on the cross which reads as follows: "...beating their breasts turning back saying, 'woe to us who have today, on account of our sins, hastened the desolation of Jerusalem'." The reading is also found in slightly modified form in Ephrem the Syrian's Comm. 20.28: "'Woe, woe to us,' they said. 'This was the Son of God!'... 'Behold, the judgement of the destruction of Jerusalem has come!'.", and in the Gospel of Peter: "...began to lament and to say, 'Woe unto our sins; the judgement and the end of Jerusalem is drawn near'." /* This reading has an obvious parallel to the Gospel of the Ebionites and the Ascents of James in which Jesus' prophetic mission is to abolish the Jewish sacrifices. (my OR)*/
If someone ever decides to expand this article, these might be two interesting examples to include. Ignocrates ( talk) 19:59, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
The original entry read "irreconcilable genealogies" when referring to the different genealogies in Matthew and Luke. This is, however, a biased statement---they are certainly different, but that does not imply that they're "irreconcilable." That would be equivalent to someone from the other side of the discussion stating that they are "complementary genealogies." As such, I've changed the entry to read "different genealogies." I think this is fair to both sides of the discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by an unknown editor ( talk • contribs)
I have reverted the attached text relating to the genealogies;
There is a substantial scholarly tradition arsing out of proposed reconciliations of the Matthew and Luke genealogy traditions; but since neither genealogy is witnessed in the Diatessaron, the matter is irrelevant to this article, much better in Genealogy of Jesus. TomHennell ( talk) 17:13, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Anonymous, the word "different" is perfect. Providing a neutral and factual point-of-view is Pro-Wikipedian.
Wetman, I agree. The article should report how the different genealogies are reconcilable, if they are.
Anonymous, thank you for your reconciling contribution.
LadyMargo ( talk) 00:22, 24 April 2014 (UTC)Lady Margo
TomHennell: You stated, "I have had to revert this again. Please don't indulge in edit wars - discuss changes here; and respect any consensus thats is reached."
You wrongfully reverted it. Just because you do not agree with it, it does not mean that you can revert it. What you wrote is equivalent to 2+2=5 but not to 2+2=4. The two genealogies are not contradictory but different and an accurate explanation has been given, which you removed. I was not indulging in edit wars but providing accurate information. I will not respect your inaccurate information nor anyones inaccurate information. You are not fit to discuss this matter with because you obviously are ignorant of the fact that 2+2=4. As for the healing of the blind men: When sports journalists report about a sports game, they do not report every single thing. If one sports journalist reports that 2 football players got hurt and a second sports journalist reports that a football player got hurt, it does not mean that they reported contradictory information but different information.
You stated, "It also helps, and is good Wiki-manners, if editors identify themselves." That is your opinion and I do not agree with you. I have been writing & editing on Wikipedia for 5 years and never had an account & never identified myself. There is no need for it. Wikipedia is about articles and not about the people who write and edit articles.
You stated, that McFall "essentially proposes that Tatian saw them as 'duplications' not 'contradictions', and omitted them for that reason." So, a 21st Century scholar's ASSUMPTION is your preference over THE FACT that the genealogies were omitted because Tatian believed that the flesh of Jesus was imaginary (Gnostic view) but the genealogies show that Jesus was born of the seed of David after the flesh?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.30.250.8 ( talk) 23:00, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Lady Margo: Thank you for being appreciative of my contribution, which reconciled the different genealogies but it was reverted by a person who is obviously ignorant of the fact that it is relevant information and linked "genealogies" to a Wikipedia article, which has MANY errors. He is also ignorant of the fact that 2+2=4; there are no contradictions among the 4 gospels.
I have re-edited the text to be more consistent with the entry on Tatian, and to take into account recent manuscript discoveries TomHennell 11:45, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
How is it that a date of c. 175 AD is set for this when Bruce Metzger (reflected over at ntcanon.org) puts a date of 150-160 AD? 15 years makes a difference.
Sntjohnny 16:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I note that User:Carnegiecarnage has edited the date to 250 - 300. The corollary of this is that Tatian cannot be the author - and therefore that the current work (or rather the original form if it) cannot be the work identified as Tatian's harmony. Does anything substantiate this late dating? TomHennell ( talk) 22:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Apparently not. It is actually possible that the Gospel of John was being written about the time of Tatian's Diatessaron, or was not widely read at that time. According to Helmut Koester, professor of New Testament Studies at Harvard University, in his book "History and Literature of Early Christianity" page 32, The Gospel of John was not included. 166.203.44.113 ( talk) 22:49, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I stand corrected- I did re-read Koerster, and concur with your article. Sometimes we see what we want to see. 32.178.22.125 ( talk) 14:27, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
01/04/09 The title says "Diatessaron" but the actual article refers to the "Diatesseron"
--- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.215.79.212 ( talk) 05:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Now why on earth is: [Ammonius Saccas|Ammonius Saccas who taught Origen and Plotinus] really a useful way to do this? The issue of the (possible!) multiple Ammonius Saccases is explored in the Ammonius Saccas entry. --MichaelTinkler
I have been reading through Petersen's 1994 opus magnum on the history of research on the Diatessaron, and I came across some interesting observations that I thought were worth noting.
The first one is about the great light on the water during Jesus' baptism which is thought to have been in the Diatessarion. Examples of the great light can be found in Codex Vercellensis (Codex a) and Codex Sangermanensis I (Codex g1) as well as the Pepysian Gospel Harmony. It is also found in fragments of the Gospel of the Ebionites and the Gospel of the Hebrews preserved in quotations by the early Church Fathers. Petersen has an interesting discussion about this on pp.14-22; he speculates that this tradition is related to the fire on the water during Jesus' baptism described by Justin Martyr in Dialogue with Trypho 88.3 (c. 160). Petersen notes that the words for light and fire are very different in Greek (translated "phos" and "pyros", respectively), but they are homophones in Aramaic (translated "nuhra" and "nura", respectively). He credits scholar David Levinson with this insight and conjectures that both variants derive from an earlier common Jewish-Christian tradition.
The second observation comes from a later chapter with 8 examples of readings that Petersen thinks are most likely to have come from the Diatessaron. In Exhibit 8 on pp.414-20, Petersen describes an alternate reading of Luke 23.48 found in Codex g1 following Jesus' death on the cross which reads as follows: "...beating their breasts turning back saying, 'woe to us who have today, on account of our sins, hastened the desolation of Jerusalem'." The reading is also found in slightly modified form in Ephrem the Syrian's Comm. 20.28: "'Woe, woe to us,' they said. 'This was the Son of God!'... 'Behold, the judgement of the destruction of Jerusalem has come!'.", and in the Gospel of Peter: "...began to lament and to say, 'Woe unto our sins; the judgement and the end of Jerusalem is drawn near'." /* This reading has an obvious parallel to the Gospel of the Ebionites and the Ascents of James in which Jesus' prophetic mission is to abolish the Jewish sacrifices. (my OR)*/
If someone ever decides to expand this article, these might be two interesting examples to include. Ignocrates ( talk) 19:59, 21 August 2013 (UTC)