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Although Chauvin was a real person.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.191.188.xxx ( talk • contribs) 16:12, 3 December 2001
Who was he? Fellowscientist ( talk) 21:00, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
I modified slightly the section mentioning male chauvinism, which as written implied that the word chauvinism now generally means male chauvinism. AFAIK the word still has its original political meanings; I hear it used often enough, and of course it's hyphenated umpteen different ways at the bottom there. Male chauvinism may be its most frequent contemporary usage, but always as modified by the world male, never just as 'chauvinism.' 142.167.175.124 22:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
This is a new term I have recently heard. I think it is worth adding. It refers to the assumptions and oppression inherent in the language and behavior of heterosexual people without regard to homosexuals.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.25.101 ( talk) 21:48, 29 May 2004
A little humour for you:
www.allman.tk—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.101.228.4 ( talk) 14:10, 22 September 2005
Someone authorized to, please remove the inappropriate comment (and probably joke site also) as they are pretty clearly against WP:TPG. I'm not quite clear on the policy of deleting other people's comments on talk pages or I'd do it myself. 142.167.175.124 22:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed this twice so far:
This content is not encyclopedic. It reads as advice and isn't sourced. It doesn't help the reader understand the term any better. Any insult or pejoritive falls under this, so the information isn't unique either. This content needs to be refined and sourced if to have a chance at all in the article. Please explain these changes more here before editing further. Thanks.- Andrew c 17:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
'"The Old Guard dies but does not surrender!", implying blind and unquestioned zeal to one's country [or other group of reference]."
This seems to me to imply unconditional rather than "unquestioned" dedication.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.177.191.109 ( talk • contribs) 18:46, 12 August 2007.
Can we discuss this on talk? Saying "I've heard of it" is not a valid reliable source on wikipedia. Making a bold edit is fine, but if it gets reverted, the best thing to do is to talk it out and reach a compromise, not to get into an edit war. If your issue is with saying the term is only used by misandric researchers, then we can adjust that, but I take issue with saying "female chauvinism" is a "Frequent contemporary uses of the term in English" on the same level as "male chauvinism". A third issue is the "female chauvinism" section discusses another use of the term, in that it is a woman who "replicate male chauvinism and sexist stereotypes about women".- Andrew c [talk] 14:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi all The term 'female chauvinism' is nonsensical in the manner in which it is used in this article. Whilst I'm sure Ariel Levy's book has sold well, and is being promoted throughout this article, it does not constitute common use. We should not perpetuate her misuse and misunderstanding of the term. 'Female chauvinist' either means a female who is biased against the other gender OR (more correctly) it means someone, almost by definition male, who is biased towards women and not the twisting of words and genders presented here. I've not read her book, but disagree with her justification of usage as heard in a radio interview. I'm sure it's interesting but please promote it elsewhere.
If I get no response, I'm happy to go through and remove/edit the references to make her usage a lesser point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.73.136 ( talk) 11:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
In the section on female chauvinism the definition should be limited to "the unreasoned belief that women are superior to men," it's correct definition. Ms. Levy's book will be reserved for that section but will be used as an example of female chauvinism as it is properly defined.
Ms. Levy's use of the term presumes that females cannot be chauvanistic on their own account- essentially that true female chauvinism cannot exist. Her usage implies that only men can be chauvinistic in gender issues, and that women are only capable of chauvinism when they replicate male chauvinism. She is therefore arguing that women, if they are enlightened, are superior to men. And that's classical chauvinism.
Using her re-definition is improper, sexist and POV.
I've read the discussion history of this article and I want to make this abundantly clear; I don't intend to edit war on this and neither should anyone who disagrees with me. I won't be posting anything even remotely approaching Speedy Delete territory, so my edits should be allowed to stand pending an actaul debate of the issue, just as I'm allowing what I believe to be an incorrect and possibly POV article to stand to give you a chance to defend it. If you can clearly articulate why I'm wrong or a possible compromise edit, that's fine. I expect comments before I post the edits (in about 4 days) and that any edit to my edits be announced in advance allowing me sufficient time to respond. Simply editing or reverting without discusion is a sign of, at best, ideological bias.
Here are the proposed edits;
First paragraph:
Chauvinism /ˈʃoʊvɪnɪzəm/ is extreme and unreasoning partisanship on behalf of a group to which one belongs, especially when the partisanship includes malice and hatred towards a rival group. Jingoism is a similar term of British derivation. A frequent [1] contemporary use of the term in English is male chauvinism, which refers to the belief that males are superior to females.
References
Female chauvinism refers to the unreasoned belief that females are superior to males. A recent example of female chauvinism is the usage of the term in the title of Ariel Levy's book, Female Chauvinist Pigs. In her book Ms. Levy uses the term, and particularly its derogatory form, to describe females who replicate male sexist stereotypes. This usage presumes, without a reasoned framework, that women are superior enough to men to not practice chauvinism on their own account. ref>Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture, Ariel Levy, 2006, ISBN 0743284283</ref>
According to Nathanson and Young, what they see as 'ideological' feminism is chauvinistic as well as misandric. They assert that many so-called 'ideological' feminists have claimed that "women are psychologically, morally, spiritually, intellectually, and biologically superior to men". [1] They also assert that these feminists consider knowledge created by women to be superior to that created by men. [2]
Wendy McElroy claims that in some gender feminist views, all men are considered irreconcilable rapists, wife-beating brutes, and useless as partners or fathers to women. [3] McElroy and Camille Paglia claim that gender feminists view women as innocent victims who never make irresponsible or morally questionable choices. [4] Other feminists such as Kate Fillion have questioned the idea that women are always innocent victims and men always the guilty victimizers when the interests of each collide with those of the other. [5]
the egoist
References
I removed the following:
We need a reliable source to cite that makes the claim that these works either depict chauvinism or are chauvinistic. I am also not sure if we need a list of works like this because it could be quite extensive and not encyclopedic (wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information). But let's work on sourcing this content first. - Andrew c [talk] 01:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I think you're getting ahead of yourself. That list is flawed regardless of additional citation. The editor who added them is not addressing her or himself to the article at hand.
A better statement of policy is to enforce the actual definition of the term male chauvinism and not to let it be used interchangably with the term sexism. The works as described do not address the theme of male chauvinism but that of sexism. In none of the descriptions is any character credited with holding an unreasoned belief in male superiority. Instead the male characters are treating women badly for reasons unknown or for reasons far more complicated (psycho-sexually in at least three of these instances, involving extremely complex paraphelias such as sadism and latent pedophilia) than a simple ideological and unreasoned belief.
The difference between male chauvinism, sexism directed toward women and misogyny are very real and the issue needs to be clarified in this article. Being chauvinistic implies a belief system, sexism implies a pattern of behavior, misogyny implies an emotional reaction. Simply put a male chauvinist or even a misogynist can think or feel whatever he or she (yes a women can be a misoginist and no, she can't be a male chauvinist) want, but if they do not act upon those thoughts or feelings then they are not appropriately described as sexist.
This is an encyclopedia. When you are providing the meaning of a term, precision in language equals precision in thought.
the egoist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.189.45.144 ( talk) 12:44, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
The "female chauvinism" section dwarfs the "male chauvinism" section, which seems odd and a case of undue weight. Is there some interest in flushing the section out, or trimming the "female chauvinism" section? Blackworm ( talk) 06:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The term female chauvinism seems to have some currency. It was mentioned in the LA Times in 1999, on iFeminists and in the Harvard Crimson in 2004, in the "fair and balanced" *cough* Fox News in 2005, etc. Ariel Levy published a book on the topic in 2005 which was reviewed in the New York Times. JCDenton2052 ( talk) 20:11, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
FWIW, while articles need not be strictly about scholarly matters, Google Scholar (or citeseer, etc) often give a better sense of longer-term and more "serious" usage of terms or concepts than does regular Google and the changing blogosphere. There the skew between male/female chauvinism is much stronger: "male chauvinism" (4790); "female chauvinism" (169). Among the first few hits, the latter term often seems to occur in scare quotes; i.e. the author describes "female chauvinism" as hypothetical rather than the actual subject of writing. But there are definitely a few scholarly uses of the disquotational sense as well. It still makes me think of WP:WEIGHT though. LotLE× talk 21:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm... trying some dictionaries, I see:
Neither has anything equivalent for "female chauvinism". I can find a few hits on '"female chauvinism" definition' (answers.com, etc.) but they all seem to be syndication of WP content... usually this very article. LotLE× talk 22:17, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the earlier discussion, I think you misunderstood my use of the "N word" there. JCDenton2052 had given several links to newspapers that used the terms "female chauvinism". However, each of them used it somewhat differently, and each seemed to be a sense coined by that specific author. I don't see the N word as having any relevance in article space (for this article anyway), so concerns about WP:OR around it are a bit misplaced. LotLE× talk 22:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
So what your saying is that only males are sexist and all males are sexist? That just proves that all feminist are misandric subjugaters. -- 203.206.73.28 ( talk) 11:42, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
An editor posted the below addition. I think it points at an important area for discussion that is worth including in this article. However, as written it is a very impressionistic description of one (interesting, but not general) example of linguistic chauvinism. Also, the tone and wording is very awkward and unencyclopedic.
I think that in its existing form, it does more harm than good to put on the article, but hopefully we can tighten it up and include some discussion of the concept of linguistic chauvinism. LotLE× talk 03:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
In multiracial countries Singapore and Malaysia, langauge can be a sensitive issue. Someone studied at Chinese school is expected to be insulted by someone studied at English schools, as "Chinese chauvinist". Associate Professor Chew Cheng Hai, tutor of Singapore Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew in Chinese language for the past 24 years said he does not see himself as either a Chinese chauvinist or a racist. "I don't think today there are any extreme elements left among the Chinese-educated. I am more concerned about chauvinism among the English-educated. We should all put the interests of Singapore first." He disagrees with sentiments that there is an over-emphasis on the Chinese language, which might undermine the Singapore identity, with English as the neutral, common language. [7]
If jingoism is going to be given as a parallel for chauvinism, some attribution is required - most would argue that jingoism refers solely to ideas of nation, whilst chauvinism, whilst similar as an idea in origin, has come to have a broader application. OED definition cited, when I looked it up says -
extreme patriotism, especially in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.16.122 ( talk) 09:26, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
In middle of the last paragraph in the section "Chauvinism as sexism," there appears following:
"Female chauvinism was found to represent an attempt to ward off anxiety and shame arising from one or more of four prime sources: unresolved infantile strivings and regressive wishes, hostile envy of men, and power and dependency conflicts related to feminine self-esteem. Fathers were more important than mothers in the development of female chauvinism, and resolution was sometimes associated with decompensation in husbands."
This information is not cited, and appears to be a verbatim quote from research cited earlier in the article regarding male chauvinism, with only the gender in question switched. I highly doubt the veracity of these sentences; they seem fabricated. Could someone please either a) cite a source, or b) remove those sentences? I would remove it myself, but thought it best to ask for sources first...
Jthechemist ( talk) 20:20, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
EDIT: On second thought, I will remove the aforementioned sentences. Bullshit smells like bullshit. You are all invited to prove me wrong with a revert + citation.
Jthechemist ( talk) 00:09, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
All feminist groups are hate groups do your research of feminism both for it and against it. I've been doing it for four years now and I have concluded none of them believe in equality only supremacy. -- 203.206.73.28 ( talk) 11:43, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
The information in this paragraph turns very negative when discussing so-called chauvinistic traditions in abrahamic religions. Disturbing blanket accusations for billions of people? While i understand that they may be true in some cases the exception is not the norm, even if the article claims or can be perceived as claiming that. Suggest removal or rewording at the least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.184.163.76 ( talk) 17:10, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
The quote below I believe is not a good illustration of sexism. It assumes that men were inconsiderate to women and their condition (diabetes) because they are women but it could be that in fact men our more selfish than women and if men treat other men the same way then the behavior would not be sexist but selfish.
Now if the study showed that men were more considerate to other men however were less considerate to other women then it would have a point but it seems to only show that women are probably more considerate than men. I will remove it from the article unless someone has a compelling reason not to.
"An observational study of diabetics and their spouses also found that if the husband was diabetic, the wife tended to support his particular dietary needs while the converse was true for marriages where the wife was diabetic. In the latter case, husbands were often unsupportive and preferred to eat meals to their own taste." -- Kibbled bits ( talk) 02:48, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
The citation reference number 9 reference to book by Korda, Michael is invalid as it implying the statement that Chauvinist men will bully the women irrespective of his nature. But chauvinism is a superiority complex in both genders and it is not necessary to be bullied to opposite gender.
--
Abhilashkrishn (
talk) 13:18, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Removed the line as per above description. Abhilashkrishn ( talk) 08:13, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
My statement that not all men are sexist from birth shouldn't of been deleted as this page is created to be a flame magnet.-- 58.7.73.157 ( talk) 12:53, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Should it be said in the article that not all men think women should work at home?-- 58.7.95.175 ( talk) 10:55, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
For a general article on chauvinism, this has far too many specifics on "male chauvinism", "female chauvinism" and other types. This is confusing and distracting. The term has been in use for about 200 years. The vast majority of that time it was used without "male" or any other adjective.
I first heard the word used in the 1960s, years before "male chauvinism" had entered the public's working vocabulary. It would be unfortunate to obscure the generality of the word by emphasizing any one type of chauvinism. Dratman ( talk) 19:04, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Just a questions if this could or should be connected with the Machismo article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machismo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.234.4.80 ( talk) 21:30, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
I think this should have its own article, and include citations for male chauvinist pig. the idea of men as pigs was a very common meme starting in the 60s. heres an image poking fun at it:
which might be nice in the article. Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 06:51, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm curious if there are any notable groups that historically self identified as male chauvinists or if it is exclusively used as a derogatory word against men. Seems the article needs to make this clear.
Removed as it is not a reliable source. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 23:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Chauvinism is by definition irrational. See dictionary definition for sources given (Palgrave Macmillan Global Politics): "An irrational belief in the superiority or dominance of one's own group of people". Johncdraper ( talk) 09:18, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
I know I'm late to the party, but I'm just adding my voice to support the use of "unreasonable". I would also be fine with "irrational", or "prejudiced", or similar descriptors. I don't see many definitions that don't include some mention of the negative connotation of the term. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 20:28, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
It appers that someone has edited the second sentence of the introduction rather clumsily, if anyone can figure out what should be there, please improve it. Darkman101 ( talk) 21:06, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
This article should contain a reference to the eponymous Nicolas Chauvin /info/en/?search=Nicolas_Chauvin Dcprevere ( talk) 07:39, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
The word "unreasonable" seems very biased. Why isn't for instance Misandry defined as "the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against men" instead of "unreasonable hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against men"? 46.135.30.110 ( talk) 15:31, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
The application of these contentious statements, ('extreme,' and 'chauvinist'), both representing small, minority opinions as though they are an axiomatic, inescapable truth is the very epitome of undue weight and a serious breach of this website's policy to adhere to a neutral point of view. This is an academic website, not a vehicle to peddle the personal beliefs of a few individuals who disagree with Mr. Farage's political views. NPOV is a fundamental cornerstone of this website and academia in general and no exceptions can be made.
To quote directly from the guidelines page: "Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects." Mr. Farage is perhaps one of the most written about political figures in the UK. The number of reliable sources explaining his political positions is almost uncountable, yet only a small handful use the word "chauvinist" in their description of him. This is giving undue weight to a minority viewpoint, and worse yet, presenting contentious opinion as axiomatic fact.
From the guideline page, "Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc." This is perhaps the most serious breach. There is no in-line attribution and these contentious statements are written as though it is speaking for wikipedia. This is absolutely unacceptable.
Again, from the NPOV guidelines page, "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements.". However, given the utter and complete minority in which the label of "chauvinist" is applied to Mr. Farage in reliable sources, it would be undue weight to give equal prominence to it in relation to the overwhelming number of sources which do not apply this label.
Furthermore "Prefer nonjudgmental language. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject), although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity. Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Do not editorialize. When editorial bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed. The only bias that should be evident is the bias attributed to the source." Using the phrase "extreme enough to be widely considered" is, again, a blatant breach here. The phrase "extreme" is always to be avoided without direct, in-line citation. This is one of the first things I learnt when I was being trained as a journalist. Wikipedia does not decide what is extreme and what isn't. Do we have an extreme-nometer that we use to measure it? We don't. And therefore it is a contentious, subjective, opinionated statement that should be avoided.
"If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;" Which prominent individuals have applied this label to Mr. Farage? If it is a widely-held view, then they must exist, but clearly they don't. The Guardian article in particular is laughable if used to support its continued inclusion. It appears the quote labeling Mr. Farage a chauvinist comes from an unnamed individual representing an entirely unknown, fringe group called "All Under One Banner Kernow"(?). What an absolute joke. This is the quintessential definition of Wikipedia:Undue.
I have been told by another user here that I must present "evidence of academic research and news sources stating he is not a chauvinist." That isn't how it works. If I were to say that King Charles is actually a lizard-man in disguise, replicating perfectly the form of a human-being, it isn't up to anyone else to prove that he isn't (how could they?). The evidence is that the overwhelming majority of reliable sources do not apply the label of chauvinist to Mr. Farage. There are a handful of reliable sources describing Mr. Jeremy Corbyn as a Trotskyist (mainly Telegraph), does that mean Mr. Corbyn is a Trotskyist? No. And if I were to go to the page on Trotskyism and say, "an example of a modern-day Trotskyist is Jeremy Corbyn, please see these reliable sources as evidence..." That would be giving undue weight to a minority viewpoint, which is exactly what is happening here. This needs to be remedied ASAP, as this sort of nonsense is a clear violation of one of the very cornerstones of this website and academia in general. 82.37.67.100 ( talk) 12:39, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
You have failed to respond to essentially every key point I have made, namely the ones that lift quotations directly from the guideline page. I don't blame you in the slightest, because your position, respectfully, seems to me to be untenable. I will do you the courtesy, however, of responding to each and every one of your statements in order (I will abridge quotations for the sake of readability, I am not intentionally slicing your points, or failing to read them). Firstly, "...than being a nationalist, which Farrage admits to." I am not disputing that Nigel Farage is a nationalist, he is. Farage believes in the existence of the UK as a nation state, and, as you say, admits to this description. It is factually correct to describe him as a nationalist, and there would never be any contention over this. Facts should be presented as facts on wikipedia, of course-- that is even written on the NPOV guideline page. However, the very same page states that opinions should not be presented as fact. "Chauvinist", is a much more contentious, derogatory, subjective and opinionated label, one which is applied to Mr. Farage in only a handful of instances which you have kindly provided for us. My issue in regards to this is listed above in excessive detail, which, I'm sorry, you have completely and utterly failed to respond to.
"...five references supporting the 'appearance of chauvinism' (not chauvinism itself)" As I ceaselessly point out above, 5 references is a mere handful in a plethora of reliable sources which do not apply that label to him. If this were 5 out of 5 sources, the label would be a fair and accurate description. But it is not. And it is therefore giving undue weight to a minority view. And I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean in regards to the 'appearance of chauvinism (not chauvinism itself)' remark. Could you elaborate on it? The article is clearly labeling Mr. Farage as a chauvinist as though it is an indisputable, axiomatic truth. There is no mention of an "appearance" of anything. Sorry if I've misunderstood this.
"..how you view his bank's reputational meta-report, as it reflects a widespread belief by at least enough people to warrant its inclusion that Farrage is a chauvinist." How does a report by his bank establish "widespread belief?" Respectfully, that is inane. It reflects the belief of a select handful of unnamed individuals working for Coutts bank who compiled the biased, opinionated, subjective report at the request of the CEO who has since been fired/stepped down over the very same issue. It doesn't establish anything, other than Coutts' own opinion, no more valid than anything else. Banks do not decide these things.
"Next, I get what you mean, but your lizard man argument falls because it is a reductio ad absurdum, not a valid argument." Taken at face value, I can see how you arrive at that conclusion, perhaps I worded it too vaguely. Obviously, I am not comparing a fringe David Icke conspiracy theory with a legitimate opinion (note the word opinion) voiced by reliable sources. The point I was making is that it is not my responsibility to disprove anything. It is instead your responsibility to prove it. You have to establish that there is 'widespread belief' (your own words, presuming you are the one who wrote that passage, if not,I apologise) that Mr. Farage is a chauvinist. It is not good enough to cherry pick a handful of reliable sources out of a sea of hundreds, if not thousands.
"...Corbyn comparison falls because whether or not Corbyn is a Trotskyist is a valid discussion on the Left." Political orientation of those who make these claims is utterly and absolutely irrelevant. We judge reliable sources as reliable sources, regardless of what or who they are discussing, or what end of the political spectrum they belong to. If I were to include left-wing sources as evidence that Corbyn was a Trotskyist, it would be no different than if they were right-wing. The point stands that the assertion would still remain a minority view, and to present it as an axiomatic truth would be giving undue weight to it and breaching a neutral point of view. The overwhelming sources do not describe him as such, and that is all that matters.
I will end by asking you politely to address the main points I have made in my previous reply, the ones that deal directly with the guidelines as per Wikipedia:Undue as that is the crux of this discussion. Lizard men and Corbyn being a Trotskyist is irrelevant. We are discussing undue weightand NPOV here and, respectfully, none of your above reply tackles either of these. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.67.100 ( talk) 14:11, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
To improve this page, this is an appeal for nominations, with citations, of a contemporary person espousing chauvinism, corrroborated by multiple independent secondary sources, preferably within the English-speaking world, i.e., with English language citations. The situation at present is that we have only one example, of my favourite British machievellian, Nigel Farrage, who has stated for the record that he has championed chauvinism, for which we have multiple independent reliable sources. However, that example is in dispute. I look forwards to seeing more nominations. Johncdraper ( talk) 11:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
I wrote up a whole paragraph connecting in the chauvinism exemplified by Ernst Lissauer, Gott strafe England, and in contrast the difficulties that most German Jews had with the Kriegserlebnis, and then my computer crashed. ☹ Anyway, it can be done. Sources were Hans-Peter Bayerdörfer, Paul R. Mendes-Flohr, and a couple of others. Uncle G ( talk) 20:36, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
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Although Chauvin was a real person.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.191.188.xxx ( talk • contribs) 16:12, 3 December 2001
Who was he? Fellowscientist ( talk) 21:00, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
I modified slightly the section mentioning male chauvinism, which as written implied that the word chauvinism now generally means male chauvinism. AFAIK the word still has its original political meanings; I hear it used often enough, and of course it's hyphenated umpteen different ways at the bottom there. Male chauvinism may be its most frequent contemporary usage, but always as modified by the world male, never just as 'chauvinism.' 142.167.175.124 22:01, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
This is a new term I have recently heard. I think it is worth adding. It refers to the assumptions and oppression inherent in the language and behavior of heterosexual people without regard to homosexuals.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.25.101 ( talk) 21:48, 29 May 2004
A little humour for you:
www.allman.tk—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.101.228.4 ( talk) 14:10, 22 September 2005
Someone authorized to, please remove the inappropriate comment (and probably joke site also) as they are pretty clearly against WP:TPG. I'm not quite clear on the policy of deleting other people's comments on talk pages or I'd do it myself. 142.167.175.124 22:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed this twice so far:
This content is not encyclopedic. It reads as advice and isn't sourced. It doesn't help the reader understand the term any better. Any insult or pejoritive falls under this, so the information isn't unique either. This content needs to be refined and sourced if to have a chance at all in the article. Please explain these changes more here before editing further. Thanks.- Andrew c 17:51, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
'"The Old Guard dies but does not surrender!", implying blind and unquestioned zeal to one's country [or other group of reference]."
This seems to me to imply unconditional rather than "unquestioned" dedication.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.177.191.109 ( talk • contribs) 18:46, 12 August 2007.
Can we discuss this on talk? Saying "I've heard of it" is not a valid reliable source on wikipedia. Making a bold edit is fine, but if it gets reverted, the best thing to do is to talk it out and reach a compromise, not to get into an edit war. If your issue is with saying the term is only used by misandric researchers, then we can adjust that, but I take issue with saying "female chauvinism" is a "Frequent contemporary uses of the term in English" on the same level as "male chauvinism". A third issue is the "female chauvinism" section discusses another use of the term, in that it is a woman who "replicate male chauvinism and sexist stereotypes about women".- Andrew c [talk] 14:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi all The term 'female chauvinism' is nonsensical in the manner in which it is used in this article. Whilst I'm sure Ariel Levy's book has sold well, and is being promoted throughout this article, it does not constitute common use. We should not perpetuate her misuse and misunderstanding of the term. 'Female chauvinist' either means a female who is biased against the other gender OR (more correctly) it means someone, almost by definition male, who is biased towards women and not the twisting of words and genders presented here. I've not read her book, but disagree with her justification of usage as heard in a radio interview. I'm sure it's interesting but please promote it elsewhere.
If I get no response, I'm happy to go through and remove/edit the references to make her usage a lesser point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.73.136 ( talk) 11:07, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
In the section on female chauvinism the definition should be limited to "the unreasoned belief that women are superior to men," it's correct definition. Ms. Levy's book will be reserved for that section but will be used as an example of female chauvinism as it is properly defined.
Ms. Levy's use of the term presumes that females cannot be chauvanistic on their own account- essentially that true female chauvinism cannot exist. Her usage implies that only men can be chauvinistic in gender issues, and that women are only capable of chauvinism when they replicate male chauvinism. She is therefore arguing that women, if they are enlightened, are superior to men. And that's classical chauvinism.
Using her re-definition is improper, sexist and POV.
I've read the discussion history of this article and I want to make this abundantly clear; I don't intend to edit war on this and neither should anyone who disagrees with me. I won't be posting anything even remotely approaching Speedy Delete territory, so my edits should be allowed to stand pending an actaul debate of the issue, just as I'm allowing what I believe to be an incorrect and possibly POV article to stand to give you a chance to defend it. If you can clearly articulate why I'm wrong or a possible compromise edit, that's fine. I expect comments before I post the edits (in about 4 days) and that any edit to my edits be announced in advance allowing me sufficient time to respond. Simply editing or reverting without discusion is a sign of, at best, ideological bias.
Here are the proposed edits;
First paragraph:
Chauvinism /ˈʃoʊvɪnɪzəm/ is extreme and unreasoning partisanship on behalf of a group to which one belongs, especially when the partisanship includes malice and hatred towards a rival group. Jingoism is a similar term of British derivation. A frequent [1] contemporary use of the term in English is male chauvinism, which refers to the belief that males are superior to females.
References
Female chauvinism refers to the unreasoned belief that females are superior to males. A recent example of female chauvinism is the usage of the term in the title of Ariel Levy's book, Female Chauvinist Pigs. In her book Ms. Levy uses the term, and particularly its derogatory form, to describe females who replicate male sexist stereotypes. This usage presumes, without a reasoned framework, that women are superior enough to men to not practice chauvinism on their own account. ref>Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture, Ariel Levy, 2006, ISBN 0743284283</ref>
According to Nathanson and Young, what they see as 'ideological' feminism is chauvinistic as well as misandric. They assert that many so-called 'ideological' feminists have claimed that "women are psychologically, morally, spiritually, intellectually, and biologically superior to men". [1] They also assert that these feminists consider knowledge created by women to be superior to that created by men. [2]
Wendy McElroy claims that in some gender feminist views, all men are considered irreconcilable rapists, wife-beating brutes, and useless as partners or fathers to women. [3] McElroy and Camille Paglia claim that gender feminists view women as innocent victims who never make irresponsible or morally questionable choices. [4] Other feminists such as Kate Fillion have questioned the idea that women are always innocent victims and men always the guilty victimizers when the interests of each collide with those of the other. [5]
the egoist
References
I removed the following:
We need a reliable source to cite that makes the claim that these works either depict chauvinism or are chauvinistic. I am also not sure if we need a list of works like this because it could be quite extensive and not encyclopedic (wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information). But let's work on sourcing this content first. - Andrew c [talk] 01:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I think you're getting ahead of yourself. That list is flawed regardless of additional citation. The editor who added them is not addressing her or himself to the article at hand.
A better statement of policy is to enforce the actual definition of the term male chauvinism and not to let it be used interchangably with the term sexism. The works as described do not address the theme of male chauvinism but that of sexism. In none of the descriptions is any character credited with holding an unreasoned belief in male superiority. Instead the male characters are treating women badly for reasons unknown or for reasons far more complicated (psycho-sexually in at least three of these instances, involving extremely complex paraphelias such as sadism and latent pedophilia) than a simple ideological and unreasoned belief.
The difference between male chauvinism, sexism directed toward women and misogyny are very real and the issue needs to be clarified in this article. Being chauvinistic implies a belief system, sexism implies a pattern of behavior, misogyny implies an emotional reaction. Simply put a male chauvinist or even a misogynist can think or feel whatever he or she (yes a women can be a misoginist and no, she can't be a male chauvinist) want, but if they do not act upon those thoughts or feelings then they are not appropriately described as sexist.
This is an encyclopedia. When you are providing the meaning of a term, precision in language equals precision in thought.
the egoist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.189.45.144 ( talk) 12:44, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
The "female chauvinism" section dwarfs the "male chauvinism" section, which seems odd and a case of undue weight. Is there some interest in flushing the section out, or trimming the "female chauvinism" section? Blackworm ( talk) 06:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The term female chauvinism seems to have some currency. It was mentioned in the LA Times in 1999, on iFeminists and in the Harvard Crimson in 2004, in the "fair and balanced" *cough* Fox News in 2005, etc. Ariel Levy published a book on the topic in 2005 which was reviewed in the New York Times. JCDenton2052 ( talk) 20:11, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
FWIW, while articles need not be strictly about scholarly matters, Google Scholar (or citeseer, etc) often give a better sense of longer-term and more "serious" usage of terms or concepts than does regular Google and the changing blogosphere. There the skew between male/female chauvinism is much stronger: "male chauvinism" (4790); "female chauvinism" (169). Among the first few hits, the latter term often seems to occur in scare quotes; i.e. the author describes "female chauvinism" as hypothetical rather than the actual subject of writing. But there are definitely a few scholarly uses of the disquotational sense as well. It still makes me think of WP:WEIGHT though. LotLE× talk 21:36, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm... trying some dictionaries, I see:
Neither has anything equivalent for "female chauvinism". I can find a few hits on '"female chauvinism" definition' (answers.com, etc.) but they all seem to be syndication of WP content... usually this very article. LotLE× talk 22:17, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the earlier discussion, I think you misunderstood my use of the "N word" there. JCDenton2052 had given several links to newspapers that used the terms "female chauvinism". However, each of them used it somewhat differently, and each seemed to be a sense coined by that specific author. I don't see the N word as having any relevance in article space (for this article anyway), so concerns about WP:OR around it are a bit misplaced. LotLE× talk 22:49, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
So what your saying is that only males are sexist and all males are sexist? That just proves that all feminist are misandric subjugaters. -- 203.206.73.28 ( talk) 11:42, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
An editor posted the below addition. I think it points at an important area for discussion that is worth including in this article. However, as written it is a very impressionistic description of one (interesting, but not general) example of linguistic chauvinism. Also, the tone and wording is very awkward and unencyclopedic.
I think that in its existing form, it does more harm than good to put on the article, but hopefully we can tighten it up and include some discussion of the concept of linguistic chauvinism. LotLE× talk 03:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
In multiracial countries Singapore and Malaysia, langauge can be a sensitive issue. Someone studied at Chinese school is expected to be insulted by someone studied at English schools, as "Chinese chauvinist". Associate Professor Chew Cheng Hai, tutor of Singapore Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew in Chinese language for the past 24 years said he does not see himself as either a Chinese chauvinist or a racist. "I don't think today there are any extreme elements left among the Chinese-educated. I am more concerned about chauvinism among the English-educated. We should all put the interests of Singapore first." He disagrees with sentiments that there is an over-emphasis on the Chinese language, which might undermine the Singapore identity, with English as the neutral, common language. [7]
If jingoism is going to be given as a parallel for chauvinism, some attribution is required - most would argue that jingoism refers solely to ideas of nation, whilst chauvinism, whilst similar as an idea in origin, has come to have a broader application. OED definition cited, when I looked it up says -
extreme patriotism, especially in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.16.122 ( talk) 09:26, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
In middle of the last paragraph in the section "Chauvinism as sexism," there appears following:
"Female chauvinism was found to represent an attempt to ward off anxiety and shame arising from one or more of four prime sources: unresolved infantile strivings and regressive wishes, hostile envy of men, and power and dependency conflicts related to feminine self-esteem. Fathers were more important than mothers in the development of female chauvinism, and resolution was sometimes associated with decompensation in husbands."
This information is not cited, and appears to be a verbatim quote from research cited earlier in the article regarding male chauvinism, with only the gender in question switched. I highly doubt the veracity of these sentences; they seem fabricated. Could someone please either a) cite a source, or b) remove those sentences? I would remove it myself, but thought it best to ask for sources first...
Jthechemist ( talk) 20:20, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
EDIT: On second thought, I will remove the aforementioned sentences. Bullshit smells like bullshit. You are all invited to prove me wrong with a revert + citation.
Jthechemist ( talk) 00:09, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
All feminist groups are hate groups do your research of feminism both for it and against it. I've been doing it for four years now and I have concluded none of them believe in equality only supremacy. -- 203.206.73.28 ( talk) 11:43, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
The information in this paragraph turns very negative when discussing so-called chauvinistic traditions in abrahamic religions. Disturbing blanket accusations for billions of people? While i understand that they may be true in some cases the exception is not the norm, even if the article claims or can be perceived as claiming that. Suggest removal or rewording at the least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.184.163.76 ( talk) 17:10, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
The quote below I believe is not a good illustration of sexism. It assumes that men were inconsiderate to women and their condition (diabetes) because they are women but it could be that in fact men our more selfish than women and if men treat other men the same way then the behavior would not be sexist but selfish.
Now if the study showed that men were more considerate to other men however were less considerate to other women then it would have a point but it seems to only show that women are probably more considerate than men. I will remove it from the article unless someone has a compelling reason not to.
"An observational study of diabetics and their spouses also found that if the husband was diabetic, the wife tended to support his particular dietary needs while the converse was true for marriages where the wife was diabetic. In the latter case, husbands were often unsupportive and preferred to eat meals to their own taste." -- Kibbled bits ( talk) 02:48, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
The citation reference number 9 reference to book by Korda, Michael is invalid as it implying the statement that Chauvinist men will bully the women irrespective of his nature. But chauvinism is a superiority complex in both genders and it is not necessary to be bullied to opposite gender.
--
Abhilashkrishn (
talk) 13:18, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Removed the line as per above description. Abhilashkrishn ( talk) 08:13, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
My statement that not all men are sexist from birth shouldn't of been deleted as this page is created to be a flame magnet.-- 58.7.73.157 ( talk) 12:53, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Should it be said in the article that not all men think women should work at home?-- 58.7.95.175 ( talk) 10:55, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
For a general article on chauvinism, this has far too many specifics on "male chauvinism", "female chauvinism" and other types. This is confusing and distracting. The term has been in use for about 200 years. The vast majority of that time it was used without "male" or any other adjective.
I first heard the word used in the 1960s, years before "male chauvinism" had entered the public's working vocabulary. It would be unfortunate to obscure the generality of the word by emphasizing any one type of chauvinism. Dratman ( talk) 19:04, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Just a questions if this could or should be connected with the Machismo article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machismo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.234.4.80 ( talk) 21:30, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
I think this should have its own article, and include citations for male chauvinist pig. the idea of men as pigs was a very common meme starting in the 60s. heres an image poking fun at it:
which might be nice in the article. Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 06:51, 15 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm curious if there are any notable groups that historically self identified as male chauvinists or if it is exclusively used as a derogatory word against men. Seems the article needs to make this clear.
Removed as it is not a reliable source. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 23:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)
Chauvinism is by definition irrational. See dictionary definition for sources given (Palgrave Macmillan Global Politics): "An irrational belief in the superiority or dominance of one's own group of people". Johncdraper ( talk) 09:18, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
I know I'm late to the party, but I'm just adding my voice to support the use of "unreasonable". I would also be fine with "irrational", or "prejudiced", or similar descriptors. I don't see many definitions that don't include some mention of the negative connotation of the term. Firefangledfeathers ( talk / contribs) 20:28, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
It appers that someone has edited the second sentence of the introduction rather clumsily, if anyone can figure out what should be there, please improve it. Darkman101 ( talk) 21:06, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
This article should contain a reference to the eponymous Nicolas Chauvin /info/en/?search=Nicolas_Chauvin Dcprevere ( talk) 07:39, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
The word "unreasonable" seems very biased. Why isn't for instance Misandry defined as "the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against men" instead of "unreasonable hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against men"? 46.135.30.110 ( talk) 15:31, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
The application of these contentious statements, ('extreme,' and 'chauvinist'), both representing small, minority opinions as though they are an axiomatic, inescapable truth is the very epitome of undue weight and a serious breach of this website's policy to adhere to a neutral point of view. This is an academic website, not a vehicle to peddle the personal beliefs of a few individuals who disagree with Mr. Farage's political views. NPOV is a fundamental cornerstone of this website and academia in general and no exceptions can be made.
To quote directly from the guidelines page: "Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects." Mr. Farage is perhaps one of the most written about political figures in the UK. The number of reliable sources explaining his political positions is almost uncountable, yet only a small handful use the word "chauvinist" in their description of him. This is giving undue weight to a minority viewpoint, and worse yet, presenting contentious opinion as axiomatic fact.
From the guideline page, "Avoid stating opinions as facts. Usually, articles will contain information about the significant opinions that have been expressed about their subjects. However, these opinions should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice. Rather, they should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where justified, described as widespread views, etc." This is perhaps the most serious breach. There is no in-line attribution and these contentious statements are written as though it is speaking for wikipedia. This is absolutely unacceptable.
Again, from the NPOV guidelines page, "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. If different reliable sources make conflicting assertions about a matter, treat these assertions as opinions rather than facts, and do not present them as direct statements.". However, given the utter and complete minority in which the label of "chauvinist" is applied to Mr. Farage in reliable sources, it would be undue weight to give equal prominence to it in relation to the overwhelming number of sources which do not apply this label.
Furthermore "Prefer nonjudgmental language. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject (or what reliable sources say about the subject), although this must sometimes be balanced against clarity. Present opinions and conflicting findings in a disinterested tone. Do not editorialize. When editorial bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed. The only bias that should be evident is the bias attributed to the source." Using the phrase "extreme enough to be widely considered" is, again, a blatant breach here. The phrase "extreme" is always to be avoided without direct, in-line citation. This is one of the first things I learnt when I was being trained as a journalist. Wikipedia does not decide what is extreme and what isn't. Do we have an extreme-nometer that we use to measure it? We don't. And therefore it is a contentious, subjective, opinionated statement that should be avoided.
"If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents;" Which prominent individuals have applied this label to Mr. Farage? If it is a widely-held view, then they must exist, but clearly they don't. The Guardian article in particular is laughable if used to support its continued inclusion. It appears the quote labeling Mr. Farage a chauvinist comes from an unnamed individual representing an entirely unknown, fringe group called "All Under One Banner Kernow"(?). What an absolute joke. This is the quintessential definition of Wikipedia:Undue.
I have been told by another user here that I must present "evidence of academic research and news sources stating he is not a chauvinist." That isn't how it works. If I were to say that King Charles is actually a lizard-man in disguise, replicating perfectly the form of a human-being, it isn't up to anyone else to prove that he isn't (how could they?). The evidence is that the overwhelming majority of reliable sources do not apply the label of chauvinist to Mr. Farage. There are a handful of reliable sources describing Mr. Jeremy Corbyn as a Trotskyist (mainly Telegraph), does that mean Mr. Corbyn is a Trotskyist? No. And if I were to go to the page on Trotskyism and say, "an example of a modern-day Trotskyist is Jeremy Corbyn, please see these reliable sources as evidence..." That would be giving undue weight to a minority viewpoint, which is exactly what is happening here. This needs to be remedied ASAP, as this sort of nonsense is a clear violation of one of the very cornerstones of this website and academia in general. 82.37.67.100 ( talk) 12:39, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
You have failed to respond to essentially every key point I have made, namely the ones that lift quotations directly from the guideline page. I don't blame you in the slightest, because your position, respectfully, seems to me to be untenable. I will do you the courtesy, however, of responding to each and every one of your statements in order (I will abridge quotations for the sake of readability, I am not intentionally slicing your points, or failing to read them). Firstly, "...than being a nationalist, which Farrage admits to." I am not disputing that Nigel Farage is a nationalist, he is. Farage believes in the existence of the UK as a nation state, and, as you say, admits to this description. It is factually correct to describe him as a nationalist, and there would never be any contention over this. Facts should be presented as facts on wikipedia, of course-- that is even written on the NPOV guideline page. However, the very same page states that opinions should not be presented as fact. "Chauvinist", is a much more contentious, derogatory, subjective and opinionated label, one which is applied to Mr. Farage in only a handful of instances which you have kindly provided for us. My issue in regards to this is listed above in excessive detail, which, I'm sorry, you have completely and utterly failed to respond to.
"...five references supporting the 'appearance of chauvinism' (not chauvinism itself)" As I ceaselessly point out above, 5 references is a mere handful in a plethora of reliable sources which do not apply that label to him. If this were 5 out of 5 sources, the label would be a fair and accurate description. But it is not. And it is therefore giving undue weight to a minority view. And I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean in regards to the 'appearance of chauvinism (not chauvinism itself)' remark. Could you elaborate on it? The article is clearly labeling Mr. Farage as a chauvinist as though it is an indisputable, axiomatic truth. There is no mention of an "appearance" of anything. Sorry if I've misunderstood this.
"..how you view his bank's reputational meta-report, as it reflects a widespread belief by at least enough people to warrant its inclusion that Farrage is a chauvinist." How does a report by his bank establish "widespread belief?" Respectfully, that is inane. It reflects the belief of a select handful of unnamed individuals working for Coutts bank who compiled the biased, opinionated, subjective report at the request of the CEO who has since been fired/stepped down over the very same issue. It doesn't establish anything, other than Coutts' own opinion, no more valid than anything else. Banks do not decide these things.
"Next, I get what you mean, but your lizard man argument falls because it is a reductio ad absurdum, not a valid argument." Taken at face value, I can see how you arrive at that conclusion, perhaps I worded it too vaguely. Obviously, I am not comparing a fringe David Icke conspiracy theory with a legitimate opinion (note the word opinion) voiced by reliable sources. The point I was making is that it is not my responsibility to disprove anything. It is instead your responsibility to prove it. You have to establish that there is 'widespread belief' (your own words, presuming you are the one who wrote that passage, if not,I apologise) that Mr. Farage is a chauvinist. It is not good enough to cherry pick a handful of reliable sources out of a sea of hundreds, if not thousands.
"...Corbyn comparison falls because whether or not Corbyn is a Trotskyist is a valid discussion on the Left." Political orientation of those who make these claims is utterly and absolutely irrelevant. We judge reliable sources as reliable sources, regardless of what or who they are discussing, or what end of the political spectrum they belong to. If I were to include left-wing sources as evidence that Corbyn was a Trotskyist, it would be no different than if they were right-wing. The point stands that the assertion would still remain a minority view, and to present it as an axiomatic truth would be giving undue weight to it and breaching a neutral point of view. The overwhelming sources do not describe him as such, and that is all that matters.
I will end by asking you politely to address the main points I have made in my previous reply, the ones that deal directly with the guidelines as per Wikipedia:Undue as that is the crux of this discussion. Lizard men and Corbyn being a Trotskyist is irrelevant. We are discussing undue weightand NPOV here and, respectfully, none of your above reply tackles either of these. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.67.100 ( talk) 14:11, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
To improve this page, this is an appeal for nominations, with citations, of a contemporary person espousing chauvinism, corrroborated by multiple independent secondary sources, preferably within the English-speaking world, i.e., with English language citations. The situation at present is that we have only one example, of my favourite British machievellian, Nigel Farrage, who has stated for the record that he has championed chauvinism, for which we have multiple independent reliable sources. However, that example is in dispute. I look forwards to seeing more nominations. Johncdraper ( talk) 11:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
I wrote up a whole paragraph connecting in the chauvinism exemplified by Ernst Lissauer, Gott strafe England, and in contrast the difficulties that most German Jews had with the Kriegserlebnis, and then my computer crashed. ☹ Anyway, it can be done. Sources were Hans-Peter Bayerdörfer, Paul R. Mendes-Flohr, and a couple of others. Uncle G ( talk) 20:36, 19 January 2024 (UTC)