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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2019 and 24 February 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ytutu.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 12:58, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Wow. So the USSR under Stalin was a thriving democracy? Puhlease! "In addition, the Constitution recognized collective social and economic rights not provided by constitutions in capitalist countries at that time..." Although I'm sure that people who believe in Stalinism (there are still some, right?) would buy this, it's an extreme POV -- I suspect the vast majority of wikipedians would not buy this depiction of Stalinism as a worker's paradise. I'm not saying that a pro-USSR POV has no place on WP, but this article totally fails to present any balancing point of view. Of course one could protest that this article is simply describing what the constitution said, rather than how it (wasn't) implemented in reality. But that omission still constitutes a very extreme POV.-- Bcrowell 01:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
This article is about the constitution of the soviet union. For the history of the soviet union, see some other article. Should we mark up the article about your country's constitution to describe when the goverment violated it? ~Anonymous Coward
Firstly, it's not an article about Stalin and Stalinism, but about the constitution. Secondly, how do you explain for you the fact, that 1936 Constitution not just survived de-Stalinisation of 1956, but was in force until as late as 1977? Maybe because the point was not the content of the constitution, but how it was tractated and enforced in different times? Cmapm 01:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I've tried to restore some semblance of NPOV to the article, but it really needs work from someone who is an expert on the subject. I think it could use some text written by an expert explaining (1) the actual role of the constitution in Soviet society, which, AFAIK, was to serve as a propaganda document, not to lay down the rule of the land, and (2) how this constitution relates to the political changes that took place later, e.g., at the end of Stalin's reign.-- Bcrowell 01:53, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Cmpam has reverted my edits. I'm not going to get into a revert war over this. It just really needs attention from an expert on the subject.-- Bcrowell 02:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
BTW, since this discussion has started to focus exclusively on the issue of historical background, I want to reiterate the point that this is really more of a POV issue. For instance, the sentence "In addition, the Constitution recognized collective social and economic rights not provided by constitutions in capitalist countries at that time,..." is a highly POV attempt to promote compare the Soviet system favorably to the governments of the West in that era.-- Bcrowell 02:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
If the Soviet Constitution of 1936 was a hollow mockery to an exceptionally high degree, far beyond the ordinary, then that's a fact worth noting. AnonMoos 03:27, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
There is no way that there was political freedom in Stalin's USSR, the Soviet people had a choice between Stalin and the gulags/torture/execution/NKVD. Tha is nowhere near the level of freedom available in the West either at the time or now (i.e Black disenfranchisement). ~Enraged Historian 03:31 5th December 2005 (UTC)
I've moved the highly pro-Soviet POV material out of the descriptive text and down to the end of the article, and added some contrasting material immediately after it that presents the anti-Soviet POV.-- Bcrowell 03:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I think that the article accurately suggests that the rights given in the constitution were not neccasarily enforced by the final clause added in the quote about the role of the chief position of executive office. ComradeV8 05:43(GMT), 5.12.2005
I think the whole situation can be cleared up by adding an addendum that the Constitution existed in theory, but in practice it was bogus. I have a book of primary source documents from the era and that is specifically how the issue is addressed. The authority of the Party overrode any so-called "rights", whereas in the United States, "all men are created equal" was simply reinterpreted over time. -- 68.45.21.204 18:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't want to revert any more, although I see, that Western POV prevails in the article now, the only quote in the article being not from the Constitution itself, but from the book by a Western writer published in the Cold War times :) I leave the article as is, mainly because generally I avoid political disputes, which are horrible in Wiki IMHO. BTW I've made no changes into the article except an addition of two external links (to the text of the Constitution).
But please, you folks, who didn't lived in the Soviet Union and perhaps even haven't any academic degree in the Soviet history, don't teach me, who lived there and whose parents lived there. Don't teach me and my parents, which rights we were guaranteed and which we weren't. Because my parents, as Soviet citizens, were guaranteed at least the following rights, provided by 1936 Constitution (which remained guaranteed to me by 1977 Constitution):
Never mind, I avoid getting involved to editwars and political discussions in Wikipedia. Cmapm 01:07, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
It's so weird seeing conversations older then you Kingllama100 ( talk) 06:29, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
The present version has stood up for 12 hours or so. If Cmapm can live with this version, I can too, and am willing to delete the totallydisputed and expert tags. -- Bcrowell 23:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC) This version is horrible in wording, style and content f.e. "From a pro-Soviet point of view, the constitution was argued to have provided economic rights not included in constitutions in the western democracies." - id did 'provide' positive rights unheared of before quite objectively from whichever point you look. "Western historians and historians from former Soviet occupied countries have seen the constitution as a meaningless propaganda document." Firstly what does "meaningless propaganda document" imply? No Russian historian since destalinisation denies the constitution was never fully respected. I think you should recover the tags. 79.216.226.94 ( talk) 04:15, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
It's one of the rights granted by the constitution. I wonder if such a right was granted by any non-communist constitutions; or are recommended by any international treaties and such?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Stalin’s great moment when he first appeared as leader of the whole Soviet people was when, as Chairman of the Constitutional Commission, he presented the new Constitution of the Socialist State. A commission of thirty-one of the country’s ablest historians, economists, and political scientists had been instructed to create “the world’s most democratic constitution” with the most accurate machinery yet devised for obtaining “the will of the people.” They spent a year and a half in detailed study of every past constitution in the world, not only of governments but of trade unions and voluntary societies. The draft that they prepared was then discussed by the Soviet people for several months in more than half a million meetings attended by 36,500,000 people. The number of suggested amendments that reached the Constitutional Commission from the popular discussions was 154,000. Stalin himself is known to have read tens of thousands of the people’s letters.
Two thousand people sat in the great white hall of the Kremlin Palace when Stalin made his report to the Congress of Soviets. Below me, where I sat in the journalists’ box, was the main floor filled with the Congress deputies; around me in the loges sat the foreign diplomatic corps; behind me, in a deep gallery, were citizen-visitors. Outside the hall tens of millions of people listened over the radio, from the southern cotton fields of Central Asia to the scientific stations on the Arctic coast. It was a high point of Soviet history. But Stalin’s words were direct and simple and as informal as if he sat at a fireside talking with a few friends. He explained the significance of the Constitution, took up the suggested amendments, referred a large number of them to various lawmaking bodies and himself discussed the most important. He made it plain that everyone of those 154,000 suggestions had been classified somewhere and would influence something.
Among the dozen or more amendments which Stalin personally discussed, he approved of those that facilitated democratic expression and disapproved of those that limited democracy. Some people felt, for instance, that the different constituent republics should not be granted the right to secede from the Soviet Union; Stalin said that, while they probably would not want to secede, their right to do so should be constitutionally guaranteed as an assertion of democracy. A fairly large number of people wanted to refuse political rights to the priests lest they influence politics unduly. “The time has come to introduce universal suffrage without limitations,” said Stalin, arguing that the Soviet people were now mature enough to know their own minds. – Anna Louise Strong, Stalin, The Soviets Expected It, The Dial Press, New York, 1941, pp. 46-64
–
pjoef (
talk •
contribs) 14:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Millions died under the rules of this Constitution. Xx236 ( talk) 08:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on December 5, 2005, December 5, 2006, December 5, 2012, December 5, 2013, December 5, 2016, December 5, 2021, and December 5, 2022. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2019 and 24 February 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ytutu.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 12:58, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
Wow. So the USSR under Stalin was a thriving democracy? Puhlease! "In addition, the Constitution recognized collective social and economic rights not provided by constitutions in capitalist countries at that time..." Although I'm sure that people who believe in Stalinism (there are still some, right?) would buy this, it's an extreme POV -- I suspect the vast majority of wikipedians would not buy this depiction of Stalinism as a worker's paradise. I'm not saying that a pro-USSR POV has no place on WP, but this article totally fails to present any balancing point of view. Of course one could protest that this article is simply describing what the constitution said, rather than how it (wasn't) implemented in reality. But that omission still constitutes a very extreme POV.-- Bcrowell 01:21, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
This article is about the constitution of the soviet union. For the history of the soviet union, see some other article. Should we mark up the article about your country's constitution to describe when the goverment violated it? ~Anonymous Coward
Firstly, it's not an article about Stalin and Stalinism, but about the constitution. Secondly, how do you explain for you the fact, that 1936 Constitution not just survived de-Stalinisation of 1956, but was in force until as late as 1977? Maybe because the point was not the content of the constitution, but how it was tractated and enforced in different times? Cmapm 01:40, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I've tried to restore some semblance of NPOV to the article, but it really needs work from someone who is an expert on the subject. I think it could use some text written by an expert explaining (1) the actual role of the constitution in Soviet society, which, AFAIK, was to serve as a propaganda document, not to lay down the rule of the land, and (2) how this constitution relates to the political changes that took place later, e.g., at the end of Stalin's reign.-- Bcrowell 01:53, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Cmpam has reverted my edits. I'm not going to get into a revert war over this. It just really needs attention from an expert on the subject.-- Bcrowell 02:01, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
BTW, since this discussion has started to focus exclusively on the issue of historical background, I want to reiterate the point that this is really more of a POV issue. For instance, the sentence "In addition, the Constitution recognized collective social and economic rights not provided by constitutions in capitalist countries at that time,..." is a highly POV attempt to promote compare the Soviet system favorably to the governments of the West in that era.-- Bcrowell 02:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
If the Soviet Constitution of 1936 was a hollow mockery to an exceptionally high degree, far beyond the ordinary, then that's a fact worth noting. AnonMoos 03:27, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
There is no way that there was political freedom in Stalin's USSR, the Soviet people had a choice between Stalin and the gulags/torture/execution/NKVD. Tha is nowhere near the level of freedom available in the West either at the time or now (i.e Black disenfranchisement). ~Enraged Historian 03:31 5th December 2005 (UTC)
I've moved the highly pro-Soviet POV material out of the descriptive text and down to the end of the article, and added some contrasting material immediately after it that presents the anti-Soviet POV.-- Bcrowell 03:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I think that the article accurately suggests that the rights given in the constitution were not neccasarily enforced by the final clause added in the quote about the role of the chief position of executive office. ComradeV8 05:43(GMT), 5.12.2005
I think the whole situation can be cleared up by adding an addendum that the Constitution existed in theory, but in practice it was bogus. I have a book of primary source documents from the era and that is specifically how the issue is addressed. The authority of the Party overrode any so-called "rights", whereas in the United States, "all men are created equal" was simply reinterpreted over time. -- 68.45.21.204 18:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't want to revert any more, although I see, that Western POV prevails in the article now, the only quote in the article being not from the Constitution itself, but from the book by a Western writer published in the Cold War times :) I leave the article as is, mainly because generally I avoid political disputes, which are horrible in Wiki IMHO. BTW I've made no changes into the article except an addition of two external links (to the text of the Constitution).
But please, you folks, who didn't lived in the Soviet Union and perhaps even haven't any academic degree in the Soviet history, don't teach me, who lived there and whose parents lived there. Don't teach me and my parents, which rights we were guaranteed and which we weren't. Because my parents, as Soviet citizens, were guaranteed at least the following rights, provided by 1936 Constitution (which remained guaranteed to me by 1977 Constitution):
Never mind, I avoid getting involved to editwars and political discussions in Wikipedia. Cmapm 01:07, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
It's so weird seeing conversations older then you Kingllama100 ( talk) 06:29, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
The present version has stood up for 12 hours or so. If Cmapm can live with this version, I can too, and am willing to delete the totallydisputed and expert tags. -- Bcrowell 23:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC) This version is horrible in wording, style and content f.e. "From a pro-Soviet point of view, the constitution was argued to have provided economic rights not included in constitutions in the western democracies." - id did 'provide' positive rights unheared of before quite objectively from whichever point you look. "Western historians and historians from former Soviet occupied countries have seen the constitution as a meaningless propaganda document." Firstly what does "meaningless propaganda document" imply? No Russian historian since destalinisation denies the constitution was never fully respected. I think you should recover the tags. 79.216.226.94 ( talk) 04:15, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
It's one of the rights granted by the constitution. I wonder if such a right was granted by any non-communist constitutions; or are recommended by any international treaties and such?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Stalin’s great moment when he first appeared as leader of the whole Soviet people was when, as Chairman of the Constitutional Commission, he presented the new Constitution of the Socialist State. A commission of thirty-one of the country’s ablest historians, economists, and political scientists had been instructed to create “the world’s most democratic constitution” with the most accurate machinery yet devised for obtaining “the will of the people.” They spent a year and a half in detailed study of every past constitution in the world, not only of governments but of trade unions and voluntary societies. The draft that they prepared was then discussed by the Soviet people for several months in more than half a million meetings attended by 36,500,000 people. The number of suggested amendments that reached the Constitutional Commission from the popular discussions was 154,000. Stalin himself is known to have read tens of thousands of the people’s letters.
Two thousand people sat in the great white hall of the Kremlin Palace when Stalin made his report to the Congress of Soviets. Below me, where I sat in the journalists’ box, was the main floor filled with the Congress deputies; around me in the loges sat the foreign diplomatic corps; behind me, in a deep gallery, were citizen-visitors. Outside the hall tens of millions of people listened over the radio, from the southern cotton fields of Central Asia to the scientific stations on the Arctic coast. It was a high point of Soviet history. But Stalin’s words were direct and simple and as informal as if he sat at a fireside talking with a few friends. He explained the significance of the Constitution, took up the suggested amendments, referred a large number of them to various lawmaking bodies and himself discussed the most important. He made it plain that everyone of those 154,000 suggestions had been classified somewhere and would influence something.
Among the dozen or more amendments which Stalin personally discussed, he approved of those that facilitated democratic expression and disapproved of those that limited democracy. Some people felt, for instance, that the different constituent republics should not be granted the right to secede from the Soviet Union; Stalin said that, while they probably would not want to secede, their right to do so should be constitutionally guaranteed as an assertion of democracy. A fairly large number of people wanted to refuse political rights to the priests lest they influence politics unduly. “The time has come to introduce universal suffrage without limitations,” said Stalin, arguing that the Soviet people were now mature enough to know their own minds. – Anna Louise Strong, Stalin, The Soviets Expected It, The Dial Press, New York, 1941, pp. 46-64
–
pjoef (
talk •
contribs) 14:38, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Millions died under the rules of this Constitution. Xx236 ( talk) 08:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)