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{{
cite thesis}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
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help); Unknown parameter |trans_title=
ignored (|trans-title=
suggested) (
help)Taksen ( talk) 18:43, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I just went through the article and did some copyediting. Don't hesitate to revert me if you aren't happy about any of the changes (particularly with the commas). I think this is a great article, well researched and well written. (I haven't looked at the references). My only comments are: Note that I added the phrase "late 20th-century" to the article, I checked online and that is sometimes hyphenated differently (or not at all). Be careful about consistency with commas, like if you're writing "In 1740 they died" vs "In 1740, they died". Also, maybe add a brief summary (using bullets maybe) to the result field of the infobox? Mark Arsten ( talk) 20:48, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
The current article refers to Chinese sugar mill workers as "using custom-made weapons to loot and burn mills." Unless these weapons were designed for the purpose of looting and burning mills, it seems likely to this reader that the writers were reaching for the word 'improvised' but failed to grasp it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sixtyninefourtyninefourtyfoureleven ( talk • contribs) 20:14, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Hello Chrisco, I am Dutch and live in Amsterdam. Vermeulen is here in the library. I have to find out about Van Hoevell. I did not interfere in your work untill now, because I did not study this subject, and was busy somewhere else. Comparing the Dutch and English lemma, I found some irregularities, which need to be solved. It seems so me the book by J.Th. Vermeulen and the bad relation between the two cousins Valckenier and Van Imhoff is essential. Taksen ( talk) 05:22, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Please keep patience, or I will not help you anymore. My account of the aftermath is closer to the truth than yours. I have ordered these books from the library! There IS a lot unclear, and you dont MIND? Taksen ( talk) 07:26, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Helloh confucius, thank you for your support. I just found out Van Imhoff founded the Amphioen Society in 1745. (Amphioen = opium) And who were the opium smokers or eaters? Right the Chinese. I would be very surprised if there was no connection. In 1712, Engelbert Kaempfer described the situation as follows: "No commodity throughout the Indies is retailed with greater profit by the Batavians than opium, which [its] users cannot do without, nor can they come by it except it be brought by the ships of the Batavians from Bengal and Coromandel."
Hello Crisco, also Rome and Naples were not built in one day, so again, be patient. I have never been accused of not adding enough references. I need to get into the subject, and get these books from the University Library. Unfortunenately, I don't expect if I can work through all of them before X-mas. Taksen ( talk) 15:16, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
In my experience the VOC-site is very reliable. Did you ever see a website where they mention the name of the captains, the day a ship took off, arrived and made a stop in Capetown? I think you are underestimating this site. Taksen ( talk) 15:52, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Late in 1740 Valckenier asked to be replaced. In February 1741 he was instructed to appoint Van Imhoff; meantime, on 6 December 1740, van Imhoff's faction had led a vote of no confidence on him at the the Council of the East Indies. On 13 January 1741 van Imhoff and two fellow councilors were arrested by command of Valckenier for insubordination and sent to the Netherlands
The above seems a little unclear in the timeline of events, particularly the instruction to appoint van Imhoff. Of course, communications the time ftame in those days was weeks/months instead of hours, but the above picture is rather confused. -- Ohconfucius ¡digame! 04:04, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Hellohconfucius, Late in 1740 should be Early in 1740, according to Dutch sources. I will look for a source. I don't know what happened at the 6th of December, I did not put it there. It could be wrong and perhaps on that date Van Imhoff fell out of grace. Then the story will become clearer. Taksen ( talk) 08:21, 29 December 2011 (UTC) Taksen ( talk) 08:24, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Setiono could be wrong. On the Dutch website on Valckenier the following can be read and makes more sense:
Op 6 december 1740 verscheen Valckenier, hersteld van een ziekte (waarvan de Raad gebruik had gemaakt om zich meer en meer gezag aan te matigen) op de vergadering, gevolgd door een detachement soldaten, dat zich in een kring om de Hoge Regering opstelde. Een hooglopende ruzie deed Valckenier besluiten drie leden van de Raad, Van Imhoff, Isaac van Schinne en Elias Haese, te arresteren en door de gewapende macht te doen wegvoeren.
On December 6, 1740 Valckenier, recovered from a disease, (his absence was used by the Council to get more authority) followed by a detachment of soldiers, which circled around the High Government's table. A heated argument took Valckenier to decide to arrest three members of the Council, Van Imhoff, Isaac van Schinne and Elias Haese, and were carried away by the armed forces. Taksen ( talk) 08:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
"Because of the decline of worldwide sugar prices that began in the 1720s caused by an increase in exports to Europe, the sugar industry in the East Indies had suffered considerably."
Why would increasing exports to Europe cause prices to decline? Higher demand usually creates higher prices. But is something missing here? Were exports to Europe now coming from the West Indies, instead of the East Indies? If so, that should be made clear because it leaves alot of questions now. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 02:53, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Who has called this event a pogrom? A pogrom is defined very differently in the article about pogroms - this seems to me to be another way of inflating terminology for antisemitic acts by extending them to all kinds of events. Please back up with sources for "pogrom" or remove - also from mainpage. ·ʍaunus· snunɐw· 17:54, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Waarschijnlijk komt dat omdat de regering in overeenstemming met de publieke mening de pogrom gerechtvaardigd vond, zodat het niet nodig gevonden werd daar iets tegen te doen...In het algemeen kan gezegd worden dat verschillende omstandigheden samen een toestand creëerden die leidden naar de pogrom in Batavia.
Probably because the government in accordance with the public opinion the pogrom was justified, so it was not seen as something to do ... In general it can be said that different circumstances together created a situation that led to the pogrom in Batavia.
Although I don't agree that the word pogrom should not be used, I have no objections to not using it. — Crisco 1492 ( talk) 02:15, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Ok, so now Im totally confused over where the articles used are published in. I mean especially the two articles by A. R. T. Kemasang. In the article there stands that the 1981 article was published in the Journal of Southeast Asian Studies but the ISSN is for the Bulletin of Concerned Asian Scholars, volume 19. Furhtermore, the 1982 article is said to be released in the same bulletin, this time with the correct ISSN but the volume would be 14 which means volume 19 for 1981 has to be incorrect. But it also cant be volume 19 of the Journal because year 1981 was volume 12. Can I have some clarification from the main author because of this? I ask because I planned to translate the article into German but with such errors in it I dont want to start. -- Bomzibar ( talk) 09:10, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1740 Batavia massacre article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
1740 Batavia massacre is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on September 4, 2012. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
{{
cite thesis}}
: Invalid |ref=harv
(
help); Unknown parameter |trans_title=
ignored (|trans-title=
suggested) (
help)Taksen ( talk) 18:43, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I just went through the article and did some copyediting. Don't hesitate to revert me if you aren't happy about any of the changes (particularly with the commas). I think this is a great article, well researched and well written. (I haven't looked at the references). My only comments are: Note that I added the phrase "late 20th-century" to the article, I checked online and that is sometimes hyphenated differently (or not at all). Be careful about consistency with commas, like if you're writing "In 1740 they died" vs "In 1740, they died". Also, maybe add a brief summary (using bullets maybe) to the result field of the infobox? Mark Arsten ( talk) 20:48, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
The current article refers to Chinese sugar mill workers as "using custom-made weapons to loot and burn mills." Unless these weapons were designed for the purpose of looting and burning mills, it seems likely to this reader that the writers were reaching for the word 'improvised' but failed to grasp it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sixtyninefourtyninefourtyfoureleven ( talk • contribs) 20:14, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
Hello Chrisco, I am Dutch and live in Amsterdam. Vermeulen is here in the library. I have to find out about Van Hoevell. I did not interfere in your work untill now, because I did not study this subject, and was busy somewhere else. Comparing the Dutch and English lemma, I found some irregularities, which need to be solved. It seems so me the book by J.Th. Vermeulen and the bad relation between the two cousins Valckenier and Van Imhoff is essential. Taksen ( talk) 05:22, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Please keep patience, or I will not help you anymore. My account of the aftermath is closer to the truth than yours. I have ordered these books from the library! There IS a lot unclear, and you dont MIND? Taksen ( talk) 07:26, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Helloh confucius, thank you for your support. I just found out Van Imhoff founded the Amphioen Society in 1745. (Amphioen = opium) And who were the opium smokers or eaters? Right the Chinese. I would be very surprised if there was no connection. In 1712, Engelbert Kaempfer described the situation as follows: "No commodity throughout the Indies is retailed with greater profit by the Batavians than opium, which [its] users cannot do without, nor can they come by it except it be brought by the ships of the Batavians from Bengal and Coromandel."
Hello Crisco, also Rome and Naples were not built in one day, so again, be patient. I have never been accused of not adding enough references. I need to get into the subject, and get these books from the University Library. Unfortunenately, I don't expect if I can work through all of them before X-mas. Taksen ( talk) 15:16, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
In my experience the VOC-site is very reliable. Did you ever see a website where they mention the name of the captains, the day a ship took off, arrived and made a stop in Capetown? I think you are underestimating this site. Taksen ( talk) 15:52, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Late in 1740 Valckenier asked to be replaced. In February 1741 he was instructed to appoint Van Imhoff; meantime, on 6 December 1740, van Imhoff's faction had led a vote of no confidence on him at the the Council of the East Indies. On 13 January 1741 van Imhoff and two fellow councilors were arrested by command of Valckenier for insubordination and sent to the Netherlands
The above seems a little unclear in the timeline of events, particularly the instruction to appoint van Imhoff. Of course, communications the time ftame in those days was weeks/months instead of hours, but the above picture is rather confused. -- Ohconfucius ¡digame! 04:04, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Hellohconfucius, Late in 1740 should be Early in 1740, according to Dutch sources. I will look for a source. I don't know what happened at the 6th of December, I did not put it there. It could be wrong and perhaps on that date Van Imhoff fell out of grace. Then the story will become clearer. Taksen ( talk) 08:21, 29 December 2011 (UTC) Taksen ( talk) 08:24, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Setiono could be wrong. On the Dutch website on Valckenier the following can be read and makes more sense:
Op 6 december 1740 verscheen Valckenier, hersteld van een ziekte (waarvan de Raad gebruik had gemaakt om zich meer en meer gezag aan te matigen) op de vergadering, gevolgd door een detachement soldaten, dat zich in een kring om de Hoge Regering opstelde. Een hooglopende ruzie deed Valckenier besluiten drie leden van de Raad, Van Imhoff, Isaac van Schinne en Elias Haese, te arresteren en door de gewapende macht te doen wegvoeren.
On December 6, 1740 Valckenier, recovered from a disease, (his absence was used by the Council to get more authority) followed by a detachment of soldiers, which circled around the High Government's table. A heated argument took Valckenier to decide to arrest three members of the Council, Van Imhoff, Isaac van Schinne and Elias Haese, and were carried away by the armed forces. Taksen ( talk) 08:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
"Because of the decline of worldwide sugar prices that began in the 1720s caused by an increase in exports to Europe, the sugar industry in the East Indies had suffered considerably."
Why would increasing exports to Europe cause prices to decline? Higher demand usually creates higher prices. But is something missing here? Were exports to Europe now coming from the West Indies, instead of the East Indies? If so, that should be made clear because it leaves alot of questions now. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 02:53, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Who has called this event a pogrom? A pogrom is defined very differently in the article about pogroms - this seems to me to be another way of inflating terminology for antisemitic acts by extending them to all kinds of events. Please back up with sources for "pogrom" or remove - also from mainpage. ·ʍaunus· snunɐw· 17:54, 4 September 2012 (UTC)
Waarschijnlijk komt dat omdat de regering in overeenstemming met de publieke mening de pogrom gerechtvaardigd vond, zodat het niet nodig gevonden werd daar iets tegen te doen...In het algemeen kan gezegd worden dat verschillende omstandigheden samen een toestand creëerden die leidden naar de pogrom in Batavia.
Probably because the government in accordance with the public opinion the pogrom was justified, so it was not seen as something to do ... In general it can be said that different circumstances together created a situation that led to the pogrom in Batavia.
Although I don't agree that the word pogrom should not be used, I have no objections to not using it. — Crisco 1492 ( talk) 02:15, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Ok, so now Im totally confused over where the articles used are published in. I mean especially the two articles by A. R. T. Kemasang. In the article there stands that the 1981 article was published in the Journal of Southeast Asian Studies but the ISSN is for the Bulletin of Concerned Asian Scholars, volume 19. Furhtermore, the 1982 article is said to be released in the same bulletin, this time with the correct ISSN but the volume would be 14 which means volume 19 for 1981 has to be incorrect. But it also cant be volume 19 of the Journal because year 1981 was volume 12. Can I have some clarification from the main author because of this? I ask because I planned to translate the article into German but with such errors in it I dont want to start. -- Bomzibar ( talk) 09:10, 29 August 2013 (UTC)