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Does it still exist? 128.232.250.254 22:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Reply; It does exist. I am there right now! It is just not open for the public as the (modern) building that lies on top of it is privately owned. It is just a few 100 meters from the Blue Mosque and Sophia ... If you want to see it, go to 'Istanbul Hostel' and ask for the owner. He may show you the building. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.234.9.67 ( talk) 11:24, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
That is really curious, considering the word University did not even exist in the 9th century, I'd sure like to know who did the "recognizing". -- Stbalbach 03:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The source provided is not very good, it is an English professors web page - no peer review or any professional publication. I can find many more sources that say just the opposite. This one for example says "The first medieval "university" is usually said to be Bologna". The source also does not give any information on who called it a university and when? My guess is that didn't happen until long after it was destroyed. -- Stbalbach 15:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear fellow editors, my main concern is the quality of this article and not a claim to be or not to be the first or not the first university or not exactly but something else. My concern is that in the introduction of the article on the Pamdidakterion (pan=all , didakterion=school, so school where everything is taught) of Constantinople, contains information about Bologna!!! I do not care even if you decide to delete this claim, but Bologna's university or any other institution has no place In the introduction of this article. -- FocalPoint ( talk) 14:30, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
I find your text better that the existing one (please put it in), but anyway I see two cases (I need to research this and I will probably not do it now, my apologies):
Hoping that I have helped. -- FocalPoint ( talk) 16:37, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
References
Does anybody have information (sourced) about the exact location of the university? Was it around Forum Tauri (Today's Beyazıt Square, in an ancient temple, Kapitol) or around the Monastery of Stoudion, Church of St. John the Baptist?-- Z y Talk 13:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Go to 'Istanbul Hostel' (in Istanbul). It is close to the Blue Mosque and Sophia. Ask for the owner of the place and ask him to show it to you. It is there! Underground. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.234.9.67 (
talk)
11:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This is a digital Encyclopedia, can the article at least make a mention of it’s location?
85.148.213.144 (
talk)
00:04, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
http://culturecityistanbul.blogspot.com/2017/03/magnaura-palace.html
85.148.213.144 (
talk)
00:22, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
In my view, this entry is seriously flawed and should be completely rewritten. I don't have the time now to argue the case (Stbalbach has already done it pretty well), but let me at least give the following quotation from the corresponding German entry (which is itself not immaculate): "Die Bezeichnung "Universität" ist nicht zeitgenössisch und eigentlich irreführend, da es sich bei den Hohen Schulen von Konstantinopel auch nach 425 eher um Einrichtungen in antiker Tradition handelte als um etwas, das der westeuropäischen Universität vergleichbar gewesen wäre …" Totila ( talk) 16:39, 29 June 2008 (UTC).
http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~bump/OriginUniversities.html
Because of the above definition, there is some controversy regarding what is the world's oldest university. If we consider university simply as a higher education institution, then the choice is between Takshashila, Nalanda and Al-Azhar University, but if we consider the original meaning of the word (from the latin "universitas": a corporation of students), then universities would be a medieval European phenomenon with the oldest university being the University of Magnaura in Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey), founded in 849 by the regent Bardas of emperor Michael III.
Xenovatis ( talk) 21:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Here are some more sources.
Britannica, 2008, 0.Ed., Education in Persian, Byzantine, early Russian, and Islāmic civilizations » The Byzantine Empire » Stages of education » Higher education
The rhetorician’s textbooks included systematic handbooks of the art of rhetoric, model texts with detailed commentaries, and specimens of oratory by classical or postclassical Greek writers and by Church Fathers, in particular Gregory of Nazianzus. Many Byzantine handbooks of rhetoric survive from all periods. They are often anonymous and always derivative, mostly based directly or indirectly on the treatises of Hermogenes of Tarsus (late 2nd century ad). There is little innovation in the theory of rhetoric that they expound. After studying models, pupils went on to compose and deliver speeches on various general topics.
Until the early 6th century there was a flourishing school of Neoplatonic philosophy in Athens, but it was repressed or abolished in 529 because of the active paganism of its professors. A similar, but Christian, school in Alexandria survived until the Arab conquest of Egypt in 640. For the next five centuries philosophical teaching seems to have been limited to simple surveys of Aristotle’s logic, but in the 11th century there was a renewal of interest in the Greek philosophical tradition and many commentaries on works of Aristotle were composed, evidently for use in teaching. In the early 15th century the philosopher George Gemistos Plethon revived interest in Plato, who until then had been neglected for Aristotle. All philosophical teaching in the Byzantine world was concerned with the explanation of texts rather than with the analysis of problems.
Because higher education provided learned and articulate personnel for the sophisticated bureaucracies of state and church, it was often supported and controlled officially, although private education always existed as well. There were officially appointed teachers in Constantinople in the 4th century, and in 425 the emperor Theodosius II established professorships of Greek and Latin grammar, rhetoric, and philosophy, but these probably did not survive the great crisis of the Arab and Slav invasions of the 7th century. In the 9th century the School of Magnaura, an institution of higher learning, was founded by imperial decree. In the 11th century Constantine IX established new schools of philosophy and law at the Capitol School in Constantinople. Both survived until the 12th century, when the school under the control of the patriarch of Constantinople, with teachers of grammar, rhetoric, and biblical studies, gained predominance. After the interval of Western rule in Constantinople (1204–61), both emperors and patriarchs gave sporadic support to higher education in the capital. As the power, wealth, and territory of the empire were eroded in the 14th and 15th centuries, the church became the principal and ultimately the only patron of higher education.-- Xenovatis ( talk) 21:32, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Britannica, 2008, 0.Ed., Education in Persian, Byzantine, early Russian, and Islāmic civilizations » The Byzantine Empire » Professional education
Teaching of such professional subjects as medicine, law, and architecture was largely a matter of apprenticeship, although at various times there was some imperially supported or institutionalized teaching.
Strangely, there is little sign of systematic teaching of theology, apart from that given by the professors of biblical studies in the 12th-century patriarchal school. Studious reading of works by the Church Fathers was the principal path to theological knowledge in Byzantium, both for clergy and for laymen. Nonetheless, religious orthodoxy, or faith, was Byzantium’s greatest strength. It held the empire together for more than 1,000 years against eastern invaders. Faith was also the Byzantine culture’s chief limitation, choking originality in the sciences and the practical arts. But within this limitation it preserved the literature, science, and philosophy of classical Greece in recopied texts, some of which escaped the plunders of the crusaders and were carried to southern Italy, restoring Greek learning there. Combined with the treasures of classical learning that reached Europe through the Muslims, this Byzantine heritage helped to initiate the beginnings of the European Renaissance.-- Xenovatis ( talk) 21:32, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
The University of Constantinople and the Patriarchal School were TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. The University of Constantinople provided secular / laic higher education (i.e. non-theological, as most people were highly religious at the time), in rhetoric, philosophy and law. The Patriarchal School of Constantinople provided theological higher education. Omulurimaru ( talk) 09:50, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
University of Constantinople was an institution. Byzantine university refers to the higher education during the era of the Byzantine empire. I see no reason for a merge. -- FocalPoint ( talk) 20:21, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
It is wrong to name Byzantine schools/buildings as a university only for jingoism reasons, the goal is to exaggerate Byzantine history. It is also anachronistic, the university is a late medieval western European institute, Byzantine society never had such a system. Title should be rrenamed because it is misleading to the readers. DragonTiger23 ( talk) 12:25, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
I removed the 'citation needed' tag, as the reference at the end of the paragraph covers the whole paragraph. The original reads:
"On the whole, Bzyantine society was an educated one. Primary education, widely available, sometimes even at the village level and, what is more, for both sexes - a thing unheard of in the Christian west until some 1,000 years later - ensured a high level of literacy. Female participation in culture, generally, was extensive, with many aristocratic women studying, engaging in research and writing. Scholarship was held in high esteem, fostered both in the great university at Constantinople, founded in AD 425, and in the important institutions of learning in such major provincial cities as Antioch and, of course, Alexandria." Jonathan O'Donnell ( talk) 19:57, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Does it still exist? 128.232.250.254 22:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Reply; It does exist. I am there right now! It is just not open for the public as the (modern) building that lies on top of it is privately owned. It is just a few 100 meters from the Blue Mosque and Sophia ... If you want to see it, go to 'Istanbul Hostel' and ask for the owner. He may show you the building. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.234.9.67 ( talk) 11:24, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
That is really curious, considering the word University did not even exist in the 9th century, I'd sure like to know who did the "recognizing". -- Stbalbach 03:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The source provided is not very good, it is an English professors web page - no peer review or any professional publication. I can find many more sources that say just the opposite. This one for example says "The first medieval "university" is usually said to be Bologna". The source also does not give any information on who called it a university and when? My guess is that didn't happen until long after it was destroyed. -- Stbalbach 15:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Dear fellow editors, my main concern is the quality of this article and not a claim to be or not to be the first or not the first university or not exactly but something else. My concern is that in the introduction of the article on the Pamdidakterion (pan=all , didakterion=school, so school where everything is taught) of Constantinople, contains information about Bologna!!! I do not care even if you decide to delete this claim, but Bologna's university or any other institution has no place In the introduction of this article. -- FocalPoint ( talk) 14:30, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
I find your text better that the existing one (please put it in), but anyway I see two cases (I need to research this and I will probably not do it now, my apologies):
Hoping that I have helped. -- FocalPoint ( talk) 16:37, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
References
Does anybody have information (sourced) about the exact location of the university? Was it around Forum Tauri (Today's Beyazıt Square, in an ancient temple, Kapitol) or around the Monastery of Stoudion, Church of St. John the Baptist?-- Z y Talk 13:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Go to 'Istanbul Hostel' (in Istanbul). It is close to the Blue Mosque and Sophia. Ask for the owner of the place and ask him to show it to you. It is there! Underground. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
88.234.9.67 (
talk)
11:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This is a digital Encyclopedia, can the article at least make a mention of it’s location?
85.148.213.144 (
talk)
00:04, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
http://culturecityistanbul.blogspot.com/2017/03/magnaura-palace.html
85.148.213.144 (
talk)
00:22, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
In my view, this entry is seriously flawed and should be completely rewritten. I don't have the time now to argue the case (Stbalbach has already done it pretty well), but let me at least give the following quotation from the corresponding German entry (which is itself not immaculate): "Die Bezeichnung "Universität" ist nicht zeitgenössisch und eigentlich irreführend, da es sich bei den Hohen Schulen von Konstantinopel auch nach 425 eher um Einrichtungen in antiker Tradition handelte als um etwas, das der westeuropäischen Universität vergleichbar gewesen wäre …" Totila ( talk) 16:39, 29 June 2008 (UTC).
http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~bump/OriginUniversities.html
Because of the above definition, there is some controversy regarding what is the world's oldest university. If we consider university simply as a higher education institution, then the choice is between Takshashila, Nalanda and Al-Azhar University, but if we consider the original meaning of the word (from the latin "universitas": a corporation of students), then universities would be a medieval European phenomenon with the oldest university being the University of Magnaura in Constantinople (now Istanbul, Turkey), founded in 849 by the regent Bardas of emperor Michael III.
Xenovatis ( talk) 21:37, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Here are some more sources.
Britannica, 2008, 0.Ed., Education in Persian, Byzantine, early Russian, and Islāmic civilizations » The Byzantine Empire » Stages of education » Higher education
The rhetorician’s textbooks included systematic handbooks of the art of rhetoric, model texts with detailed commentaries, and specimens of oratory by classical or postclassical Greek writers and by Church Fathers, in particular Gregory of Nazianzus. Many Byzantine handbooks of rhetoric survive from all periods. They are often anonymous and always derivative, mostly based directly or indirectly on the treatises of Hermogenes of Tarsus (late 2nd century ad). There is little innovation in the theory of rhetoric that they expound. After studying models, pupils went on to compose and deliver speeches on various general topics.
Until the early 6th century there was a flourishing school of Neoplatonic philosophy in Athens, but it was repressed or abolished in 529 because of the active paganism of its professors. A similar, but Christian, school in Alexandria survived until the Arab conquest of Egypt in 640. For the next five centuries philosophical teaching seems to have been limited to simple surveys of Aristotle’s logic, but in the 11th century there was a renewal of interest in the Greek philosophical tradition and many commentaries on works of Aristotle were composed, evidently for use in teaching. In the early 15th century the philosopher George Gemistos Plethon revived interest in Plato, who until then had been neglected for Aristotle. All philosophical teaching in the Byzantine world was concerned with the explanation of texts rather than with the analysis of problems.
Because higher education provided learned and articulate personnel for the sophisticated bureaucracies of state and church, it was often supported and controlled officially, although private education always existed as well. There were officially appointed teachers in Constantinople in the 4th century, and in 425 the emperor Theodosius II established professorships of Greek and Latin grammar, rhetoric, and philosophy, but these probably did not survive the great crisis of the Arab and Slav invasions of the 7th century. In the 9th century the School of Magnaura, an institution of higher learning, was founded by imperial decree. In the 11th century Constantine IX established new schools of philosophy and law at the Capitol School in Constantinople. Both survived until the 12th century, when the school under the control of the patriarch of Constantinople, with teachers of grammar, rhetoric, and biblical studies, gained predominance. After the interval of Western rule in Constantinople (1204–61), both emperors and patriarchs gave sporadic support to higher education in the capital. As the power, wealth, and territory of the empire were eroded in the 14th and 15th centuries, the church became the principal and ultimately the only patron of higher education.-- Xenovatis ( talk) 21:32, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Britannica, 2008, 0.Ed., Education in Persian, Byzantine, early Russian, and Islāmic civilizations » The Byzantine Empire » Professional education
Teaching of such professional subjects as medicine, law, and architecture was largely a matter of apprenticeship, although at various times there was some imperially supported or institutionalized teaching.
Strangely, there is little sign of systematic teaching of theology, apart from that given by the professors of biblical studies in the 12th-century patriarchal school. Studious reading of works by the Church Fathers was the principal path to theological knowledge in Byzantium, both for clergy and for laymen. Nonetheless, religious orthodoxy, or faith, was Byzantium’s greatest strength. It held the empire together for more than 1,000 years against eastern invaders. Faith was also the Byzantine culture’s chief limitation, choking originality in the sciences and the practical arts. But within this limitation it preserved the literature, science, and philosophy of classical Greece in recopied texts, some of which escaped the plunders of the crusaders and were carried to southern Italy, restoring Greek learning there. Combined with the treasures of classical learning that reached Europe through the Muslims, this Byzantine heritage helped to initiate the beginnings of the European Renaissance.-- Xenovatis ( talk) 21:32, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
The University of Constantinople and the Patriarchal School were TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. The University of Constantinople provided secular / laic higher education (i.e. non-theological, as most people were highly religious at the time), in rhetoric, philosophy and law. The Patriarchal School of Constantinople provided theological higher education. Omulurimaru ( talk) 09:50, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
University of Constantinople was an institution. Byzantine university refers to the higher education during the era of the Byzantine empire. I see no reason for a merge. -- FocalPoint ( talk) 20:21, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
It is wrong to name Byzantine schools/buildings as a university only for jingoism reasons, the goal is to exaggerate Byzantine history. It is also anachronistic, the university is a late medieval western European institute, Byzantine society never had such a system. Title should be rrenamed because it is misleading to the readers. DragonTiger23 ( talk) 12:25, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
I removed the 'citation needed' tag, as the reference at the end of the paragraph covers the whole paragraph. The original reads:
"On the whole, Bzyantine society was an educated one. Primary education, widely available, sometimes even at the village level and, what is more, for both sexes - a thing unheard of in the Christian west until some 1,000 years later - ensured a high level of literacy. Female participation in culture, generally, was extensive, with many aristocratic women studying, engaging in research and writing. Scholarship was held in high esteem, fostered both in the great university at Constantinople, founded in AD 425, and in the important institutions of learning in such major provincial cities as Antioch and, of course, Alexandria." Jonathan O'Donnell ( talk) 19:57, 7 February 2023 (UTC)