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Way back in this thread I suggested reframing the opening paragraph so that it went something like this:
My feeling is that the current opening represents suffers from WP:RECENTISM and that, like Rome, Jerusalem is more important for its past than its present and that further it is this historic significance that makes its present quite such a knotty problem. Having said that, I do still include quite a lot of the present there but at least the religious dimension gets in first, as does the notion that it is ancient and that the current dispute isn't the first one over the city. In the previous discussion, Okedem was the person who was most set against it, Nableezy wanted some tweaks and David Tombe was quite enthisiastic. There has been a fair churn in who is active here, so I wonder what the present editors here think.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 23:52, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
This 'Friday, April 3rd, 33' shouldn't be there, since it is only Newton's guess, and certainly the putative date is not indicated in the New Testament. Sandars has a long discussion on the various possibilities broached over the centuries. It should be removed. Nishidani ( talk) 06:45, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, it is Israel's largest city[1] in both population and area,[
I don't want to set the pigeons in the dovecotes flying, but that is problematic, as experienced editors on all sides should recognize and I suggest we all try to adjust it slightly. My suggestion is to make it all conditional, as the if clause allows us to. I.e.
(A)If the area and population of East Jerusalem were included, it would be the largest city, in both population and area, under Israel's administration,[
(b)Were East Jerusalem, which Israel administersm to be incorporated into Israel, it would be Israel's largest city
Etc. Those two give the idea, but neither is very satisfactory, because the Western part is not 'administered by Israel' but is an integral and inalienable part of the state of Israel, something which cannot be said of East Jerusalem, which is administered by Israel, considered by Israel annexed, but not accepted as being, according to modern international law re state formation, as our sentence says, part of an Israeli city.
I'm not going to change it. I don't want a huge repeat of the technical debates. I won't even participate if one opens up, and strongly recommend people not to do that- I am just asking for creative solutions to iron out a rather ambiguous phrasing. It's a 14 piper problem, and may need some weeks of grammatical tinkering to get right. Nishidani ( talk) 14:05, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
If the area and population of East Jerusalem, under Israeli administration, is included, it is the largest city in both Israel and the West Bank.
"When led to pray at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the holiest site for Christians, the caliph Umar refused to pray in the church so that Muslims would not request converting the church to a mosque." I am fairly sure I was told this has no basis in historical record, either by the tour guide, or from reading an informative notice by the Mosque of Umar.
Rich
Farmbrough,
18:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC).
The vectorized East Jerusalem map in this article has two problems:
I propose to reinstate the original jpg map until an appropriate vectorized map is provided.-- 84.108.213.97 ( talk) 10:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Does anybody know why the Armenians have their own quarter in Jerusalem, when they are a Christian denomination?-- Splashen ( talk) 21:28, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
"The international community has rejected the annexation as illegal and treats East Jerusalem as Palestinian territory held by Israel under military occupation.[17][18][19][20] The international community does not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, and the city hosts no foreign embassies."
First of all, it's 3/4 false, then - it's was clearly written in an unneutral manner. People, be mature enough and replace it with something neutral, as it is suppoused to be, as Wikipedia is intended to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.166.126.89 ( talk) 15:54, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, it is Israel's largest city[1] in both population and area,[
I don't want to set the pigeons in the dovecotes flying, but that is problematic, as experienced editors on all sides should recognize and I suggest we all try to adjust it slightly. My suggestion is to make it all conditional, as the if clause allows us to. I.e.
(A)If the area and population of East Jerusalem were included, it would be the largest city, in both population and area, under Israel's administration,[
(b)Were East Jerusalem, which Israel administersm to be incorporated into Israel, it would be Israel's largest city
Etc. Those two give the idea, but neither is very satisfactory, because the Western part is not 'administered by Israel' but is an integral and inalienable part of the state of Israel, something which cannot be said of East Jerusalem, which is administered by Israel, considered by Israel annexed, but not accepted as being, according to modern international law re state formation, as our sentence says, part of an Israeli city.
I'm not going to change it. I don't want a huge repeat of the technical debates. I won't even participate if one opens up, and strongly recommend people not to do that- I am just asking for creative solutions to iron out a rather ambiguous phrasing. It's a 14 piper problem, and may need some weeks of grammatical tinkering to get right. Nishidani ( talk) 14:05, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
If the area and population of East Jerusalem, under Israeli administration, is included, it is the largest city in both Israel and the West Bank.
With the area and population of East Jerusalem included, it is the largest and most populous Israeli city,[1]
Reading above... "a few weeks" to work out a grammatical problem and active remedies since 2008; I see there are many overlapping sources of contention here :-)
The very beginning of the article could be written more clearly (style, not substance), and with clearer ordering of the different areas in which the city is significant (age, historical, religious significance; modern political significance). That would help highlight them each in turn.
At present the historical and religious significance aren't mentioned in the first paragraph, the Old City is mentioned a few times but not defined in the lede, and the World Heritage Site status is presented in a confusing way [the recognition as a site is more significant than the addition to the endangered list; both suggested by Jordan around the same time]. In addition, footnotes make it hard to read; making it slightly easier, 1+2 could be clustered at the end of the second clause and 6+7 should not be separated by a comma.
(Finally, "home to sites of key religious importance" seems to dramatically understate the unusual magnitude and concentration of holy sites in the Old City, but I couldn't come up with an improvement without unwanted overtones, and would want a citation for a claim that this is globally exceptional.)
Below is a suggested a reorganization of the first three paragraphs to address these issues. Edits and comments welcome.
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.[iii] If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, it is Israel's largest city[1] in both population and area,[2] with a population of 763,800 residents over an area of 125.1 km2 (48.3 sq mi).[3][4][iv] Located in the Judean Mountains, between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea, modern Jerusalem has grown far beyond the boundaries of the Old City.
Jerusalem is a holy city to the three major Abrahamic religions— Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In Judaism, Jerusalem has been the holiest city since, according to the Hebrew Bible, King David of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel in c. 1000 BCE, and his son Solomon commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.[5] In Christianity, Jerusalem has been a holy city since, according to the New Testament, Jesus was crucified in c.33 C.E.[6],[7] and 300 years later Saint Helena identified the pilgrimage sites of Jesus' life. In Sunni Islam, Jerusalem is the third-holiest city.[8][9] It became the first Qibla, the focal point for Muslim prayer (Salah) in 610 CE,[10] and, according to Islamic tradition, Muhammad made his Night Journey there ten years later.[11][12] As a result, and despite having an area of only 0.9 square kilometres (0.35 sq mi),[13] the Old City is home to sites of key religious importance, among them the Temple Mount, the Western Wall, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque.
During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.[14] The oldest part of the city was settled in the 4th millennium BCE, making Jerusalem one of the oldest cities in the world.[15] The old walled city, a World Heritage site, has been traditionally divided into four quarters, although the names used today—the Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters—were introduced in the early 19th century.[16] The Old City was nominated for inclusion on the List of World Heritage in Danger by Jordan in 1982.[17]
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such,[iii] and one of the oldest cities in the world.[15] It is located in the Judean Mountains, between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea. If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, it is Israel's largest city in both population and area,[1][2] with a population of 763,800 residents over an area of 125.1 km2 (48.3 sq mi).[3][4][iv] Jerusalem is also a holy city to the three major Abrahamic religions — Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.[14] The oldest part of the city was settled in the 4th millennium BCE.[15] In 1538, walls were built around Jerusalem under Suleiman the Magnificent. Today those walls define the Old City which has been traditionally divided into four quarters -- known since the early 19th century as the Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters.[16] The Old City became a World Heritage site in 1981, and is on the List of World Heritage in Danger.[17] Modern Jerusalem has grown far beyond its boundaries.
In Judaism, Jerusalem has been the holiest city since, according to the Hebrew Bible, King David of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel in c. 1000 BCE, and his son Solomon commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.[5] In Christianity, Jerusalem has been a holy city since, according to the New Testament, Jesus was crucified in c.33 C.E.,[6][7] and 300 years later Saint Helena identified the pilgrimage sites of Jesus' life. In Sunni Islam, Jerusalem is the third-holiest city.[8][9] It became the first Qibla, the focal point for Muslim prayer (Salah) in 610 CE,[10] and, according to Islamic tradition, Muhammad made his Night Journey there ten years later.[11][12] As a result, despite having an area of only 0.9 square kilometres (0.35 sq mi),[13] the Old City is home to sites of key religious importance, among them the Temple Mount, the Western Wall, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque.
The parenthesis after the name makes the first sentence hard to read, with two languages + translit. + audio-help-linkspam. Thoughts? – SJ + 00:38, 18 March 2012
Current text:
Jerusalem ( Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם , Yerushaláyim; Arabic: القُدس , al-Quds)
A simpler option:
Jerusalem ( Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس al-Quds )
Then you can include the inline-audio template elsewhere in the article to provide help/info links if necessary.
The first two endnotes should apparently be linked after the url for the city's website and after the pronunciation in the lede sentence, but are not - right now neither is actually referenced in the body text. I'm inclined to put them back, if there is no objection. – SJ + 07:41, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
This page really takes a long time to load, when reading on a slow connection or when one has to edit more than a section at once! Have there been discussions about further delegating more information to the detail articles? Of course then I look at {{ jerusalem large}} and think about how much is already being left out :-) – SJ + 02:40, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
180 000 bytes. My laptop have problems with it.-- Ezzex ( talk) 16:41, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
In Judaism, Jerusalem has been the holiest city since, according to the Hebrew Bible, King David of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel in c.1000 BCE,
There is a Dubious tag, but I don't see any discussion. I assume the Dubious tag is intended to refer to the somewhat propagandish nature of the not-praying-in-the-church story.
I found a citation. Gibbon doesn't seem like a patently dubious source. I'm tempted to take down the Dubious tag, but for the residual qualms about this anecdote straying too far from the main topic, which here means the history of a city. Wcoole ( talk) 21:03, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Evidance : http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/341/684.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masterjohn1881 ( talk • contribs) 18:18, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
The Jerusalem Municipality is approving the construction of multiple skyscrapers and high-rise buildings, which will completely change the face of the city. Where would be a good place within this article that I could put it in?-- RM ( Be my friend) 20:11, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Tiamet recently amended the lead to read:-
This was reverted to the original without the "designated". I actually think Tiamut's wording is better in terms of NPOV and neutral language. The current wording gives undue weight to the minority position, which is Israel's. Dlv999 ( talk) 22:54, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
I reverted the recent reorganization of the lead for the following reasons:
We can start with these. More later, maybe. No More Mr Nice Guy ( talk) 23:27, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
dlv999 has asked for the source there if anyone else is interested the source is here [2]-- Shrike ( talk) 19:17, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Urshalim is an official name of the city, used in the form Urshalim-Al Quds by the Israeli government. It is also the name used in Arabic versions of the Bible. If you're reading this, you will know the incredibly high importance that the Israeli state, the Arabic language, and the Bible have in the area. Could this name therefore be added to the introduction/infobox? Any opposition? Wigiz ( talk) 10:24, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
In Judaism, Jerusalem has been the holiest city since, according to the Hebrew Bible, King David of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel in c.1000 BCE, and his son, King Solomon, commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.
I made this change (and the same to Christian and Muslim), since noone else did. I should note however that I agree with Nishidani that it is still not technically correct, as it is mixing up the Mosaic religion of the Israelites and the later Judaism of the Jews. This confusion is a problem across wikipedia, so I don't think it can be solved easily here. Oncenawhile ( talk) 18:15, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Writing Historical development of Church of England dioceses#Colonial dioceses, I am listing a diocese's country next to it. What should one list as Jerusalem's "country"? Israel/Palestine? Can you help me, Jerusalem experts? D B D 23:04, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Partial revert by Hertz1888 http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Jerusalem&diff=499571659&oldid=499561809
From existing article source: 21 http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/ch12.pdf "In a resolution adopted on 1 December 2000, the Assembly determined that the decision of Israel to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration on the Holy City of Jerusalem was illegal and, therefore, null and void." Being "null and void" does not equate with a successful annexation. Readers should be fully informed of the actual de jure status talknic ( talk) 09:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Hertz1888 -- Removal of "UNSC" from "The international community and the UNSC have"
The International Community is not the UNSC. The UNSC only has only 15 representative members. The International Community is the
Comity of Nations. It includes states outside the UN.
This can be seen in the order in which states (such as Israel) become UN Members. 1) they declare. 2) they are recognized by the majority of the
"comity of nations" (there is no vote, some UN Members don't recognize each other, they are never the less members because a majority of the Comity of Nations first recognized them before they could be recommended by the UNSC). 3) Recommended or not by the UNSC, by a vote, for admission to the UN. 4) Admitted or not by an UNGA vote, as UN Members.
talknic (
talk)
15:01, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
the project of Kiryat HaLeom are planned to be finished in 20 years and including the all Government buildings and national institutions in one area. the israeli government signed an agreement with a Dutch architectural firm that will plan the whole area and finis him in 20 years process. At the same time an Israeli architects plans to rebellion of the project of entrance to the city in 5 years that should connect to Kiryat HaLeom from the northern side. a new government buildings that planned: Office of the Prime Minister, National Headquarters of the Israel Police, State Comptroller of Israel building, National Library of Israel, National Archives Building of israel, National Gallery building of Israel, and a building for the Israel guest House. a National boulevard will across the israeli parlament building to the National square including pedestrian streets and many parking spaces
פארוק ( talk) 20:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Two large projects funded by the Israeli government that planned to build on the southern promenade overlooking the Old City walls.
1 =>> World Bible Center - an international research and study of the bible.
2 =>> World Kabbalah Center - a world center to Kabbalah studies, copy of the Rabby Moshe Chaim Luzzatto Synagogue in Italy.
פארוק ( talk) 11:59, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
The first sentence of the article states that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such." How is the bigoted opinion of a bunch of foreigners important enough to be mentioned in the first sentence? It is a bit of trivia that should be mentioned somewhere further down in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yehuditeman ( talk • contribs) 04:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
I too also wonder why Jerusalem's Wikipedia page says AT THE VERY TOP of the page in the VERY first sentence that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel when the White House of the United States does not recognize it as so? If the United States is Israel's closest ally and we do not recognize this to be true, why does this Wikipedia page say this? I donated $100 bucks to Wikipedia because I believed it to be neutral and unbiased towards any religion, political organization or bordered landmass. Yet here I see the very first thing is BLATANT pro-zionist propaganda. This is very disheartening and makes me question if this website has been operationally subverted by zionists.
Make no mistake I am neither pro-islamic, nor pro-jewish. I am neither pro Palestinian nor pro-Israeli. I hate both of these shitbags equally. What I do wonder is if Wikipedia is interested in truth and unbiased logic and rational discourse or if this website has been compromised and is no longer a reliable source of information. ( 75.181.132.184)
Sorry mate, but the USA does not decide what is or is not Israel's capital just as Israel does not decide what is or is not the USA's capital. Nor is the UN an impartial body, it is merely an amalgamation of the partialities of its members. Since each country decides itself what its capital should be, the current sentence - given its prominence within the article - comes across as rather petty/bitter and reflects badly on Wikipedia. By all means go on to mention that some people in the world do not like the fact that Jerusalem is Israel's capital however that dislike does not change the fact it is the capital of Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.14.8 ( talk) 12:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
I really do not want to talk about politics. But someone here all the time delete entire rows from the article and replaced them with rows of a state that does not exist yet. and also delet pictures of israel and replace them with pictures of country that does not exist yet. פארוק ( talk) 18:30, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
Here is my proposal for a new lead for this article. It addresses all the concerns raised on this page about the "capital or no capital" status, the issue of Palestinian capitalness, in addition to all the concerns that have been raised over the years. The proposal is from a year-old archive - not surprising since none of the arguments raised on this page so far differ by the slightest jot or tittle from those raised in the past. For that reason, too, this proposal will be seen as unacceptable in the eyes of almost everyone:
-- Ravpapa ( talk) 15:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, it is Israel's largest city in both population and area,[2][3] with a population of 801,000 residents[4] over an area of 125.1 km2 (48.3 sq mi).[
Although East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights have been brought directly under Israeli law, by acts that amount to annexation, both of these areas continue to be viewed by the international community as occupied, and their status as regards the applicability of international rules is in most respects identical to that of the West Bank and Gaza.. Though Roberts also says, on page 59, was formally annexed on July 30, 1980. nableezy - 18:00, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
'According to general international law, annexation can only take place by conclusion of a peace treaty which provides for the cession of an occupied territory to the occupying State, or as a result of debellatio, i.e. the disintegration of an enemy State.'Fania Domb,'The Separation Fence in the ICJ and the HCJ,' in Michael N. Schmitt, Jelena Pejic, (eds.) International Law and Armed Conflict: Exploring the Faultlines : Essays in Honour of Yoram Dinstein, Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 2007 p.517.
Those editors who believe that we are nearing consensus on the lead are, as they know, sorely mistaken. The moment anyone tries to make an actual edit to the article page, the pro-Israeli opponents of change will swoop down with arb-barbed talons to restore the woeful status quo.
The status quo, sanctified by hundreds of thousands of archived talk-page words, is, alas, the best that this committee can come up with. The pro-Israel campers have deified "capital" into a mountain range, and the anti-Israeli campers have added a rider and an exegetical footnote that points out the absurdity of that word. Fortunately, I doubt that any reader has ever read that footnote, and most readers, stymied by that Henry Jamesian first sentence, probably scurry to the online Britannica to read about the world's most contentious city.
In the classical meaning of zugzwang, any move a player makes results in a loss. But in this game, it is not the players that lose: whatever either side does, it is the reader who loses. -- Ravpapa ( talk) 05:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
"All I am looking for is the inclusion of Palestine's declaration of Jerusalem as capital of the currently existing State of Palestine. " - We clearly state in the introduction that the palestinians claim Jerusalem as their capital of a future Palestinian state. That covers the issue is a reasonable and balanced way. No change is needed or justified.
BritishWatcher (
talk)
08:31, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Can somebody please tell me why exactly the fact that Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine should not be included in the lead of the article? I know of one discussion on the topic ( here), but the major push back there is the thoroughly false claim that a state called Palestine does not exist. So, can somebody tell me why Israel's claim that Jerusalem is their capital should be included but Palestine's should not? ZScarpia's edit summary is spot-on in my view. A (large) number of users have objected to any clarification of Jerusalem's status as capital on the basis that states have a right to choos their own capital, regardless of whether or not that capital is even in the recognized territory of that state or held under belligerent occupation. Why exactly does that same argument not apply to Palestine? nableezy - 23:41, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
@NMMNG, I dont necessarily agree with the edit, but I dispute your characterization of the edit summary. But would you care to comment on if you feel that the declaration of Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine should be in the lead, and, if not, why not? nableezy - 06:47, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Isn't the lead suppose to summarise the entire article anyway? So if there is content in the article about Palestine and Israel, then a brief summary mention in the lead should also be included. Wesley Mouse 08:28, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
That Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine is very notable information and should definitely be in the lead of the article. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 14:44, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
@NNMNG: it's addressed in the lead already? Really? Where? Because I do not see any mention of Jerusalem having already been declared the capital of the current state called Palestine. nableezy - 17:08, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
@Hertz1888, 00:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC): "Recognition by others is not essential. Nableezy and ZScarpia are fighting the dictionary definition." Incorrect. Nableezy and ZScarpia would like the article to reflect what all the reliable sources say but, failing that, that consistent logic is applied. It is actually other editors, you included by the look of things, who have argued about dictionary definitions and the nature of what a capital is in order to include a statement that Jerusalem is, as an absolute fact, Israel's capital, overriding, contrary to Wikipedia's policies, all the reliable sources that state the contrary. ← ZScarpia 18:58, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Any thoughts? Evanh2008 ( talk| contribs) 03:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)Jerusalem ... is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such,[ii] as well as the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine. It is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is located in the Judean Mountains, between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea. If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, the city is larger than any other in Palestine or Israel, with a population of 801,000 residents over an area of 125.1 km2. Jerusalem is also a holy city to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Wait a second, you cant say things like Jerusalem straddles a border. It doesnt, the Green Line separates Israel proper from the occupied Palestinian territories, it does not separate the state of Israel from the state of Palestine. That border has yet to be drawn, and until a peace treaty establishes such a border we cant say that one exists. Israel has a border with Jordan and a border with Egypt, it does not yet have one with Palestine. There are a lot of technical issues here that cannot be glossed over. I think the solution is removing is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such, from the first sentence and moving it to a paragraph dedicated to the political status of the city. In my perfect world, that paragraph would include such things as Jerusalem straddling the Green Line, having been declared capital by Israel following the 1948 War, EJ being captured and occupied in 67, the 1980 Jerusalem Law and its rejection by the international community, and the 1988 declaration by Palestine, and finally something like the status of Jerusalem continues to be among the most disputed issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We dont need to, and shouldnt, dumb things down, and we dont need to lead the article on some 5000 years of history with a comparatively recent political dispute. nableezy - 04:08, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I agree that the Palestinian claim should be given equal weight, and should be higher up in the lede. It is POV to leave it where it is. 78.40.152.129 ( talk) 11:40, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
The lead states facts. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but that is not internationally recognised.
(Reply to Nishidani): This is again where the distinction between legal sovereignty and actual sovereignty comes in. The Oxford English Dictionary defines the adjective "sovereign" as "possessing supreme or ultimate power ... (of a nation or its affairs) acting or done independently and without outside interference". By this definition, the answer to your question regarding the nations occupied by Nazi Germany is no, they were not sovereign states in point of fact. Though they may have been sovereign according to international law, they were not sovereign because they did not possess "supreme or ultimate power" within their own borders, and their governments, where extant, did not act "independently and without outside interference". Evanh2008 ( talk| contribs) 03:05, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
What follows is my counter-proposal for a revision to the first paragraph of the lead, for which several people have expressed support. I believe it addresses the issue of weight in respect to the status of capital for either state, while also upholding the previous consensus that states can declare their own capitals. The remainder of the lead should remain unchanged, with the probable exception of the fifth paragraph, which should probably be removed in favor of the updated first sentence. I've titled this section "Alternative proposal 1" to allow for other proposals that may be made later down the road.
~ Evanh2008 ( talk| contribs) 22:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, the city is larger in both population and area than any other in Palestine or Israel, with a population of 801,000 residents
If one includes East Jerusalem, it forms the largest city in Israel/Palestine, with a population of 801,000.
This is not about whos claim to Jerusalem is more legitimate or not, it is about who controls Jerusalem, and which is the sovereign state that actually treats it as its capital. Palestinians do not have a sovereign state, do not control the territory, and they do not treat it as their capital. That is why it is undue weight to act as though its the capital of Israel and proclaimed capital of Palestine in equal terms in the same sentence. There is a clear difference between the two and that has to be reflected. The introduction needs to make clear that Palestinians claim Jerusalem as the capital of their future state, but it already does that in the more appropriate part of the lead after a paragraph explaining the status of Jerusalem is controversial etc. BritishWatcher ( talk) 10:31, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
The proposal is unacceptable per BritishWatcher. The only modification that may be done to the current lead is removing the "though not internationally recognized as such" clause, which is kind of TRIVIA, is UNDUE, and doesn't belong in the first sentence; the [ii] note sufficiently elaborates the issue. Noon ( talk) 11:24, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
I think this is fine. nableezy - 15:06, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
aice
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 |
Way back in this thread I suggested reframing the opening paragraph so that it went something like this:
My feeling is that the current opening represents suffers from WP:RECENTISM and that, like Rome, Jerusalem is more important for its past than its present and that further it is this historic significance that makes its present quite such a knotty problem. Having said that, I do still include quite a lot of the present there but at least the religious dimension gets in first, as does the notion that it is ancient and that the current dispute isn't the first one over the city. In the previous discussion, Okedem was the person who was most set against it, Nableezy wanted some tweaks and David Tombe was quite enthisiastic. There has been a fair churn in who is active here, so I wonder what the present editors here think.-- Peter cohen ( talk) 23:52, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
This 'Friday, April 3rd, 33' shouldn't be there, since it is only Newton's guess, and certainly the putative date is not indicated in the New Testament. Sandars has a long discussion on the various possibilities broached over the centuries. It should be removed. Nishidani ( talk) 06:45, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, it is Israel's largest city[1] in both population and area,[
I don't want to set the pigeons in the dovecotes flying, but that is problematic, as experienced editors on all sides should recognize and I suggest we all try to adjust it slightly. My suggestion is to make it all conditional, as the if clause allows us to. I.e.
(A)If the area and population of East Jerusalem were included, it would be the largest city, in both population and area, under Israel's administration,[
(b)Were East Jerusalem, which Israel administersm to be incorporated into Israel, it would be Israel's largest city
Etc. Those two give the idea, but neither is very satisfactory, because the Western part is not 'administered by Israel' but is an integral and inalienable part of the state of Israel, something which cannot be said of East Jerusalem, which is administered by Israel, considered by Israel annexed, but not accepted as being, according to modern international law re state formation, as our sentence says, part of an Israeli city.
I'm not going to change it. I don't want a huge repeat of the technical debates. I won't even participate if one opens up, and strongly recommend people not to do that- I am just asking for creative solutions to iron out a rather ambiguous phrasing. It's a 14 piper problem, and may need some weeks of grammatical tinkering to get right. Nishidani ( talk) 14:05, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
If the area and population of East Jerusalem, under Israeli administration, is included, it is the largest city in both Israel and the West Bank.
"When led to pray at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the holiest site for Christians, the caliph Umar refused to pray in the church so that Muslims would not request converting the church to a mosque." I am fairly sure I was told this has no basis in historical record, either by the tour guide, or from reading an informative notice by the Mosque of Umar.
Rich
Farmbrough,
18:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC).
The vectorized East Jerusalem map in this article has two problems:
I propose to reinstate the original jpg map until an appropriate vectorized map is provided.-- 84.108.213.97 ( talk) 10:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Does anybody know why the Armenians have their own quarter in Jerusalem, when they are a Christian denomination?-- Splashen ( talk) 21:28, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
"The international community has rejected the annexation as illegal and treats East Jerusalem as Palestinian territory held by Israel under military occupation.[17][18][19][20] The international community does not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, and the city hosts no foreign embassies."
First of all, it's 3/4 false, then - it's was clearly written in an unneutral manner. People, be mature enough and replace it with something neutral, as it is suppoused to be, as Wikipedia is intended to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.166.126.89 ( talk) 15:54, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, it is Israel's largest city[1] in both population and area,[
I don't want to set the pigeons in the dovecotes flying, but that is problematic, as experienced editors on all sides should recognize and I suggest we all try to adjust it slightly. My suggestion is to make it all conditional, as the if clause allows us to. I.e.
(A)If the area and population of East Jerusalem were included, it would be the largest city, in both population and area, under Israel's administration,[
(b)Were East Jerusalem, which Israel administersm to be incorporated into Israel, it would be Israel's largest city
Etc. Those two give the idea, but neither is very satisfactory, because the Western part is not 'administered by Israel' but is an integral and inalienable part of the state of Israel, something which cannot be said of East Jerusalem, which is administered by Israel, considered by Israel annexed, but not accepted as being, according to modern international law re state formation, as our sentence says, part of an Israeli city.
I'm not going to change it. I don't want a huge repeat of the technical debates. I won't even participate if one opens up, and strongly recommend people not to do that- I am just asking for creative solutions to iron out a rather ambiguous phrasing. It's a 14 piper problem, and may need some weeks of grammatical tinkering to get right. Nishidani ( talk) 14:05, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
If the area and population of East Jerusalem, under Israeli administration, is included, it is the largest city in both Israel and the West Bank.
With the area and population of East Jerusalem included, it is the largest and most populous Israeli city,[1]
Reading above... "a few weeks" to work out a grammatical problem and active remedies since 2008; I see there are many overlapping sources of contention here :-)
The very beginning of the article could be written more clearly (style, not substance), and with clearer ordering of the different areas in which the city is significant (age, historical, religious significance; modern political significance). That would help highlight them each in turn.
At present the historical and religious significance aren't mentioned in the first paragraph, the Old City is mentioned a few times but not defined in the lede, and the World Heritage Site status is presented in a confusing way [the recognition as a site is more significant than the addition to the endangered list; both suggested by Jordan around the same time]. In addition, footnotes make it hard to read; making it slightly easier, 1+2 could be clustered at the end of the second clause and 6+7 should not be separated by a comma.
(Finally, "home to sites of key religious importance" seems to dramatically understate the unusual magnitude and concentration of holy sites in the Old City, but I couldn't come up with an improvement without unwanted overtones, and would want a citation for a claim that this is globally exceptional.)
Below is a suggested a reorganization of the first three paragraphs to address these issues. Edits and comments welcome.
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such.[iii] If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, it is Israel's largest city[1] in both population and area,[2] with a population of 763,800 residents over an area of 125.1 km2 (48.3 sq mi).[3][4][iv] Located in the Judean Mountains, between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea, modern Jerusalem has grown far beyond the boundaries of the Old City.
Jerusalem is a holy city to the three major Abrahamic religions— Judaism, Christianity and Islam. In Judaism, Jerusalem has been the holiest city since, according to the Hebrew Bible, King David of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel in c. 1000 BCE, and his son Solomon commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.[5] In Christianity, Jerusalem has been a holy city since, according to the New Testament, Jesus was crucified in c.33 C.E.[6],[7] and 300 years later Saint Helena identified the pilgrimage sites of Jesus' life. In Sunni Islam, Jerusalem is the third-holiest city.[8][9] It became the first Qibla, the focal point for Muslim prayer (Salah) in 610 CE,[10] and, according to Islamic tradition, Muhammad made his Night Journey there ten years later.[11][12] As a result, and despite having an area of only 0.9 square kilometres (0.35 sq mi),[13] the Old City is home to sites of key religious importance, among them the Temple Mount, the Western Wall, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque.
During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.[14] The oldest part of the city was settled in the 4th millennium BCE, making Jerusalem one of the oldest cities in the world.[15] The old walled city, a World Heritage site, has been traditionally divided into four quarters, although the names used today—the Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters—were introduced in the early 19th century.[16] The Old City was nominated for inclusion on the List of World Heritage in Danger by Jordan in 1982.[17]
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such,[iii] and one of the oldest cities in the world.[15] It is located in the Judean Mountains, between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea. If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, it is Israel's largest city in both population and area,[1][2] with a population of 763,800 residents over an area of 125.1 km2 (48.3 sq mi).[3][4][iv] Jerusalem is also a holy city to the three major Abrahamic religions — Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.[14] The oldest part of the city was settled in the 4th millennium BCE.[15] In 1538, walls were built around Jerusalem under Suleiman the Magnificent. Today those walls define the Old City which has been traditionally divided into four quarters -- known since the early 19th century as the Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters.[16] The Old City became a World Heritage site in 1981, and is on the List of World Heritage in Danger.[17] Modern Jerusalem has grown far beyond its boundaries.
In Judaism, Jerusalem has been the holiest city since, according to the Hebrew Bible, King David of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel in c. 1000 BCE, and his son Solomon commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.[5] In Christianity, Jerusalem has been a holy city since, according to the New Testament, Jesus was crucified in c.33 C.E.,[6][7] and 300 years later Saint Helena identified the pilgrimage sites of Jesus' life. In Sunni Islam, Jerusalem is the third-holiest city.[8][9] It became the first Qibla, the focal point for Muslim prayer (Salah) in 610 CE,[10] and, according to Islamic tradition, Muhammad made his Night Journey there ten years later.[11][12] As a result, despite having an area of only 0.9 square kilometres (0.35 sq mi),[13] the Old City is home to sites of key religious importance, among them the Temple Mount, the Western Wall, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque.
The parenthesis after the name makes the first sentence hard to read, with two languages + translit. + audio-help-linkspam. Thoughts? – SJ + 00:38, 18 March 2012
Current text:
Jerusalem ( Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם , Yerushaláyim; Arabic: القُدس , al-Quds)
A simpler option:
Jerusalem ( Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם Yerushaláyim ; Arabic: القُدس al-Quds )
Then you can include the inline-audio template elsewhere in the article to provide help/info links if necessary.
The first two endnotes should apparently be linked after the url for the city's website and after the pronunciation in the lede sentence, but are not - right now neither is actually referenced in the body text. I'm inclined to put them back, if there is no objection. – SJ + 07:41, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
This page really takes a long time to load, when reading on a slow connection or when one has to edit more than a section at once! Have there been discussions about further delegating more information to the detail articles? Of course then I look at {{ jerusalem large}} and think about how much is already being left out :-) – SJ + 02:40, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
180 000 bytes. My laptop have problems with it.-- Ezzex ( talk) 16:41, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
In Judaism, Jerusalem has been the holiest city since, according to the Hebrew Bible, King David of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel in c.1000 BCE,
There is a Dubious tag, but I don't see any discussion. I assume the Dubious tag is intended to refer to the somewhat propagandish nature of the not-praying-in-the-church story.
I found a citation. Gibbon doesn't seem like a patently dubious source. I'm tempted to take down the Dubious tag, but for the residual qualms about this anecdote straying too far from the main topic, which here means the history of a city. Wcoole ( talk) 21:03, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
Evidance : http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART2/341/684.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masterjohn1881 ( talk • contribs) 18:18, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
The Jerusalem Municipality is approving the construction of multiple skyscrapers and high-rise buildings, which will completely change the face of the city. Where would be a good place within this article that I could put it in?-- RM ( Be my friend) 20:11, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Tiamet recently amended the lead to read:-
This was reverted to the original without the "designated". I actually think Tiamut's wording is better in terms of NPOV and neutral language. The current wording gives undue weight to the minority position, which is Israel's. Dlv999 ( talk) 22:54, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
I reverted the recent reorganization of the lead for the following reasons:
We can start with these. More later, maybe. No More Mr Nice Guy ( talk) 23:27, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
dlv999 has asked for the source there if anyone else is interested the source is here [2]-- Shrike ( talk) 19:17, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Urshalim is an official name of the city, used in the form Urshalim-Al Quds by the Israeli government. It is also the name used in Arabic versions of the Bible. If you're reading this, you will know the incredibly high importance that the Israeli state, the Arabic language, and the Bible have in the area. Could this name therefore be added to the introduction/infobox? Any opposition? Wigiz ( talk) 10:24, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
In Judaism, Jerusalem has been the holiest city since, according to the Hebrew Bible, King David of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel in c.1000 BCE, and his son, King Solomon, commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.
I made this change (and the same to Christian and Muslim), since noone else did. I should note however that I agree with Nishidani that it is still not technically correct, as it is mixing up the Mosaic religion of the Israelites and the later Judaism of the Jews. This confusion is a problem across wikipedia, so I don't think it can be solved easily here. Oncenawhile ( talk) 18:15, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Writing Historical development of Church of England dioceses#Colonial dioceses, I am listing a diocese's country next to it. What should one list as Jerusalem's "country"? Israel/Palestine? Can you help me, Jerusalem experts? D B D 23:04, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Partial revert by Hertz1888 http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Jerusalem&diff=499571659&oldid=499561809
From existing article source: 21 http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/ch12.pdf "In a resolution adopted on 1 December 2000, the Assembly determined that the decision of Israel to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration on the Holy City of Jerusalem was illegal and, therefore, null and void." Being "null and void" does not equate with a successful annexation. Readers should be fully informed of the actual de jure status talknic ( talk) 09:23, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Hertz1888 -- Removal of "UNSC" from "The international community and the UNSC have"
The International Community is not the UNSC. The UNSC only has only 15 representative members. The International Community is the
Comity of Nations. It includes states outside the UN.
This can be seen in the order in which states (such as Israel) become UN Members. 1) they declare. 2) they are recognized by the majority of the
"comity of nations" (there is no vote, some UN Members don't recognize each other, they are never the less members because a majority of the Comity of Nations first recognized them before they could be recommended by the UNSC). 3) Recommended or not by the UNSC, by a vote, for admission to the UN. 4) Admitted or not by an UNGA vote, as UN Members.
talknic (
talk)
15:01, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
the project of Kiryat HaLeom are planned to be finished in 20 years and including the all Government buildings and national institutions in one area. the israeli government signed an agreement with a Dutch architectural firm that will plan the whole area and finis him in 20 years process. At the same time an Israeli architects plans to rebellion of the project of entrance to the city in 5 years that should connect to Kiryat HaLeom from the northern side. a new government buildings that planned: Office of the Prime Minister, National Headquarters of the Israel Police, State Comptroller of Israel building, National Library of Israel, National Archives Building of israel, National Gallery building of Israel, and a building for the Israel guest House. a National boulevard will across the israeli parlament building to the National square including pedestrian streets and many parking spaces
פארוק ( talk) 20:19, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Two large projects funded by the Israeli government that planned to build on the southern promenade overlooking the Old City walls.
1 =>> World Bible Center - an international research and study of the bible.
2 =>> World Kabbalah Center - a world center to Kabbalah studies, copy of the Rabby Moshe Chaim Luzzatto Synagogue in Italy.
פארוק ( talk) 11:59, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
The first sentence of the article states that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such." How is the bigoted opinion of a bunch of foreigners important enough to be mentioned in the first sentence? It is a bit of trivia that should be mentioned somewhere further down in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yehuditeman ( talk • contribs) 04:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
I too also wonder why Jerusalem's Wikipedia page says AT THE VERY TOP of the page in the VERY first sentence that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel when the White House of the United States does not recognize it as so? If the United States is Israel's closest ally and we do not recognize this to be true, why does this Wikipedia page say this? I donated $100 bucks to Wikipedia because I believed it to be neutral and unbiased towards any religion, political organization or bordered landmass. Yet here I see the very first thing is BLATANT pro-zionist propaganda. This is very disheartening and makes me question if this website has been operationally subverted by zionists.
Make no mistake I am neither pro-islamic, nor pro-jewish. I am neither pro Palestinian nor pro-Israeli. I hate both of these shitbags equally. What I do wonder is if Wikipedia is interested in truth and unbiased logic and rational discourse or if this website has been compromised and is no longer a reliable source of information. ( 75.181.132.184)
Sorry mate, but the USA does not decide what is or is not Israel's capital just as Israel does not decide what is or is not the USA's capital. Nor is the UN an impartial body, it is merely an amalgamation of the partialities of its members. Since each country decides itself what its capital should be, the current sentence - given its prominence within the article - comes across as rather petty/bitter and reflects badly on Wikipedia. By all means go on to mention that some people in the world do not like the fact that Jerusalem is Israel's capital however that dislike does not change the fact it is the capital of Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.14.8 ( talk) 12:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
I really do not want to talk about politics. But someone here all the time delete entire rows from the article and replaced them with rows of a state that does not exist yet. and also delet pictures of israel and replace them with pictures of country that does not exist yet. פארוק ( talk) 18:30, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
Here is my proposal for a new lead for this article. It addresses all the concerns raised on this page about the "capital or no capital" status, the issue of Palestinian capitalness, in addition to all the concerns that have been raised over the years. The proposal is from a year-old archive - not surprising since none of the arguments raised on this page so far differ by the slightest jot or tittle from those raised in the past. For that reason, too, this proposal will be seen as unacceptable in the eyes of almost everyone:
-- Ravpapa ( talk) 15:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, it is Israel's largest city in both population and area,[2][3] with a population of 801,000 residents[4] over an area of 125.1 km2 (48.3 sq mi).[
Although East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights have been brought directly under Israeli law, by acts that amount to annexation, both of these areas continue to be viewed by the international community as occupied, and their status as regards the applicability of international rules is in most respects identical to that of the West Bank and Gaza.. Though Roberts also says, on page 59, was formally annexed on July 30, 1980. nableezy - 18:00, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
'According to general international law, annexation can only take place by conclusion of a peace treaty which provides for the cession of an occupied territory to the occupying State, or as a result of debellatio, i.e. the disintegration of an enemy State.'Fania Domb,'The Separation Fence in the ICJ and the HCJ,' in Michael N. Schmitt, Jelena Pejic, (eds.) International Law and Armed Conflict: Exploring the Faultlines : Essays in Honour of Yoram Dinstein, Martinus Nijhoff Publishers, 2007 p.517.
Those editors who believe that we are nearing consensus on the lead are, as they know, sorely mistaken. The moment anyone tries to make an actual edit to the article page, the pro-Israeli opponents of change will swoop down with arb-barbed talons to restore the woeful status quo.
The status quo, sanctified by hundreds of thousands of archived talk-page words, is, alas, the best that this committee can come up with. The pro-Israel campers have deified "capital" into a mountain range, and the anti-Israeli campers have added a rider and an exegetical footnote that points out the absurdity of that word. Fortunately, I doubt that any reader has ever read that footnote, and most readers, stymied by that Henry Jamesian first sentence, probably scurry to the online Britannica to read about the world's most contentious city.
In the classical meaning of zugzwang, any move a player makes results in a loss. But in this game, it is not the players that lose: whatever either side does, it is the reader who loses. -- Ravpapa ( talk) 05:01, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
"All I am looking for is the inclusion of Palestine's declaration of Jerusalem as capital of the currently existing State of Palestine. " - We clearly state in the introduction that the palestinians claim Jerusalem as their capital of a future Palestinian state. That covers the issue is a reasonable and balanced way. No change is needed or justified.
BritishWatcher (
talk)
08:31, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Can somebody please tell me why exactly the fact that Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine should not be included in the lead of the article? I know of one discussion on the topic ( here), but the major push back there is the thoroughly false claim that a state called Palestine does not exist. So, can somebody tell me why Israel's claim that Jerusalem is their capital should be included but Palestine's should not? ZScarpia's edit summary is spot-on in my view. A (large) number of users have objected to any clarification of Jerusalem's status as capital on the basis that states have a right to choos their own capital, regardless of whether or not that capital is even in the recognized territory of that state or held under belligerent occupation. Why exactly does that same argument not apply to Palestine? nableezy - 23:41, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
@NMMNG, I dont necessarily agree with the edit, but I dispute your characterization of the edit summary. But would you care to comment on if you feel that the declaration of Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine should be in the lead, and, if not, why not? nableezy - 06:47, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Isn't the lead suppose to summarise the entire article anyway? So if there is content in the article about Palestine and Israel, then a brief summary mention in the lead should also be included. Wesley Mouse 08:28, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
That Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine is very notable information and should definitely be in the lead of the article. -- Supreme Deliciousness ( talk) 14:44, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
@NNMNG: it's addressed in the lead already? Really? Where? Because I do not see any mention of Jerusalem having already been declared the capital of the current state called Palestine. nableezy - 17:08, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
@Hertz1888, 00:33, 19 August 2012 (UTC): "Recognition by others is not essential. Nableezy and ZScarpia are fighting the dictionary definition." Incorrect. Nableezy and ZScarpia would like the article to reflect what all the reliable sources say but, failing that, that consistent logic is applied. It is actually other editors, you included by the look of things, who have argued about dictionary definitions and the nature of what a capital is in order to include a statement that Jerusalem is, as an absolute fact, Israel's capital, overriding, contrary to Wikipedia's policies, all the reliable sources that state the contrary. ← ZScarpia 18:58, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Any thoughts? Evanh2008 ( talk| contribs) 03:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)Jerusalem ... is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such,[ii] as well as the proclaimed capital of the State of Palestine. It is one of the oldest cities in the world, and is located in the Judean Mountains, between the Mediterranean Sea and the northern edge of the Dead Sea. If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, the city is larger than any other in Palestine or Israel, with a population of 801,000 residents over an area of 125.1 km2. Jerusalem is also a holy city to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Wait a second, you cant say things like Jerusalem straddles a border. It doesnt, the Green Line separates Israel proper from the occupied Palestinian territories, it does not separate the state of Israel from the state of Palestine. That border has yet to be drawn, and until a peace treaty establishes such a border we cant say that one exists. Israel has a border with Jordan and a border with Egypt, it does not yet have one with Palestine. There are a lot of technical issues here that cannot be glossed over. I think the solution is removing is the capital of Israel, though not internationally recognized as such, from the first sentence and moving it to a paragraph dedicated to the political status of the city. In my perfect world, that paragraph would include such things as Jerusalem straddling the Green Line, having been declared capital by Israel following the 1948 War, EJ being captured and occupied in 67, the 1980 Jerusalem Law and its rejection by the international community, and the 1988 declaration by Palestine, and finally something like the status of Jerusalem continues to be among the most disputed issues in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We dont need to, and shouldnt, dumb things down, and we dont need to lead the article on some 5000 years of history with a comparatively recent political dispute. nableezy - 04:08, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I agree that the Palestinian claim should be given equal weight, and should be higher up in the lede. It is POV to leave it where it is. 78.40.152.129 ( talk) 11:40, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
The lead states facts. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but that is not internationally recognised.
(Reply to Nishidani): This is again where the distinction between legal sovereignty and actual sovereignty comes in. The Oxford English Dictionary defines the adjective "sovereign" as "possessing supreme or ultimate power ... (of a nation or its affairs) acting or done independently and without outside interference". By this definition, the answer to your question regarding the nations occupied by Nazi Germany is no, they were not sovereign states in point of fact. Though they may have been sovereign according to international law, they were not sovereign because they did not possess "supreme or ultimate power" within their own borders, and their governments, where extant, did not act "independently and without outside interference". Evanh2008 ( talk| contribs) 03:05, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
What follows is my counter-proposal for a revision to the first paragraph of the lead, for which several people have expressed support. I believe it addresses the issue of weight in respect to the status of capital for either state, while also upholding the previous consensus that states can declare their own capitals. The remainder of the lead should remain unchanged, with the probable exception of the fifth paragraph, which should probably be removed in favor of the updated first sentence. I've titled this section "Alternative proposal 1" to allow for other proposals that may be made later down the road.
~ Evanh2008 ( talk| contribs) 22:37, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
If the area and population of East Jerusalem is included, the city is larger in both population and area than any other in Palestine or Israel, with a population of 801,000 residents
If one includes East Jerusalem, it forms the largest city in Israel/Palestine, with a population of 801,000.
This is not about whos claim to Jerusalem is more legitimate or not, it is about who controls Jerusalem, and which is the sovereign state that actually treats it as its capital. Palestinians do not have a sovereign state, do not control the territory, and they do not treat it as their capital. That is why it is undue weight to act as though its the capital of Israel and proclaimed capital of Palestine in equal terms in the same sentence. There is a clear difference between the two and that has to be reflected. The introduction needs to make clear that Palestinians claim Jerusalem as the capital of their future state, but it already does that in the more appropriate part of the lead after a paragraph explaining the status of Jerusalem is controversial etc. BritishWatcher ( talk) 10:31, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
The proposal is unacceptable per BritishWatcher. The only modification that may be done to the current lead is removing the "though not internationally recognized as such" clause, which is kind of TRIVIA, is UNDUE, and doesn't belong in the first sentence; the [ii] note sufficiently elaborates the issue. Noon ( talk) 11:24, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
I think this is fine. nableezy - 15:06, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
aice
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).