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I have edited the formerly cham inhabited places with albnaian names in the lead, along with their greek form. The reason I edited them is WP:NCGN which states that "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted". The sources we have shows that there was a minority in the towns and villages, so there is "a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place". It is the same reason that the names are used in Vlora, Berat, Durres, etc, were no greeks live, but there was a ancient greek colony in there. So we shopuld start a disccusion in order to find a solution, avoiding double standards. balkanian ( talk) 12:58, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
The Miranda Vickers source doesn't help very much, it's basically a description of the modern dispute with little information of the past, it doesn't state any figures either apart from the 14.000 that live in Saranda, no evidence as to whether Chams were a historical majority in any place. Not much about the history of the region in general. Another thing is how much credibility we should give to an article that is published by a military college. The wiki articles of the cities and towns in Albania you are referring to have an extensive and properly sourced history section as Ioannina or Epirus (region). Anyway i can see that in Durres for example there is a same problem, the arguement for the deletion of the Greek name there is that it is not officially recognized by the state although its history is clearly documented. I see no reason not to add the names the Turkish and Jewish populations also used following the same wikipedia policies. As for the modern Albanian speaking element in Epirus in Cham Albanians there's a source that states that if they exist at all they are very hard to find. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zakronian ( talk • contribs) 17:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
In Berat and Vlore the greek names are in the lead. In Durres page there is a name section, and thats why there is no name in the lead, neither the Albanian one. In Thesprotia region and in norther part of Preveza prefecture, there were at least 1/3 muslim chams, and we do not know what was the number of orthodox albanians. Please see the study of a greek historian, Γ. Κτιστάκης. He states that there were about 20.000 muslimm chams, in a region that had a population of 70.000. and that there is no official number of orthodox albanians, exept the italian occupation cnesus. "Το 1923 στην Τσαμουριά ζούσαν 20.319 μουσουλμάνοι που είχαν τα αλβανικά ως μητρική γλώσσα19. Το 1925 η αλβανική κυβέρνηση έδωσε τον αριθμό των 25.000 μουσουλμάνων20. Από την απογραφή του 1928 προέκυψε ότι στην Ήπειρο ζούσαν 17.008 μουσουλμάνοι αλβανικής γλώσσας21. Το 1938 αναφέρθηκαν από την Γενική Διοίκηση Ηπείρου 17.311 αλβανομουσουλμάνοι στην περιοχή22. Η επεξεργασία των αποτελεσμάτων του 1940 δεν ολοκληρώθηκε ποτέ αλλά σύμφωνα με μία πηγή οι μουσουλμάνοι της περιοχής ανέρχονταν σε 16.66123. Σύμφωνα με μία άλλη -πιο αξιόπιστη- πηγή, οι μουσουλμάνοι ανέρχονταν σε 21.000 έως 22.00024. Τέλος, οι ιταλοί υπολόγισαν το 1941, κατά τρόπο όμως υπερβολικό, ότι στην περιοχή κατοικούσαν 26.000 χριστιανοί Αλβανοί Τσάμηδες, 28.000 μουσουλμάνοι Αλβανοί Τσάμηδες έναντι μόνο 20.000 Ελλήνων25". Even if there were only 25%, which is the lowest number, there surely was a large minority. balkanian ( talk) 11:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
We are talking about a certain region. Thesprotia and Preveza, which consist Chameria. The auther explains that they lived in the all region, and most of all he is anti-cham. You can find the hole work here. they were minority in some towns, and majority in some others, but the fact is that they were, they existed and according to WP:NCGN their name should be in the lead. balkanian ( talk) 19:34, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
[blog.aacl.com/document-of-the-committee-of-cham-albanians this] is the document of Cham Anti-fascist Committee, conducted in 1946, when they were expelled. You can read there were they were majority, or big minority. 217.24.247.227 ( talk) 12:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Please also read this: "Στην διάρκεια του Β' Παγκοσμίου Πολέμου η περιοχή υπέφερε από τα στρατεύματα κατοχής τα οποία κατέστρεψαν εντελώς την Ηγουμενίτσα και συνεργάζονταν με ντόπιους Αλβανοτσάμηδες. Η εκδίωξη τους μετά την απελευθέρωση έφερε ανακατατάξεις και νέους πληθυσμούς από τα ορεινά της Θεσπρωτίας και άλλα μέρη της Ελλάδας, οι οποίοι πύκνωσαν τον πληθυσμό της Ηγουμενίτσας." It is from Igoumenitsa`s official page, igoumenitsa.gr. It says that when chams were expelled there was a riconfiguring of population. balkanian ( talk) 12:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
"Parapotamos was inhabited by Muslim Turk-Albanians until 1944 who were driven off by the rebels (who it is known that they had joined the conquerors)." the official site of the municipality, www.parapotamos.gr balkanian ( talk) 12:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Official site of sagiada, sagiada.gr:"Από το 1950 με πυρήνα λίγα σπίτια που φτιάχτηκαν από το κράτος , δημιουργήθηκε το καινούριο χωριό κοντά στη θάλασσα και τον κάμπο που από τα χέρια των Αλβανοτσάμηδων πέρασε σ’ αυτούς και άλλους πρόσφυγες από την Ήπειρο. " balkanian ( talk) 13:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
e-sivota.gr:"Το 1850 κατοικούνταν από 40 τουρκοτσιάμικες οικογένειες. Παράγει λάδι, βελανίδια και ψάρια. Ονομαζόταν Μούρτος από το όνομα κάποιου προκρίτου ο οποίος φορολογούσε και λαφυραγωγούσε τα διερχόμενα εμπορικά πλοία επί τουρκοκρατίας. Σήμερα κατοικείται από Έλληνες που ροβόλησαν από τα ορεινά χωριά της Ηπείρου." balkanian ( talk) 13:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
in igoumenitsa.gr only Graikohori village is specifically mentioned to have a decreased population due to the leave of Chams. In the demographics archive it is clearly stated that Igoumenitsa's population increased while the whole of Thesprotia saw a decrease by 31%, all these from 1913 till 1951. Note that the decrease is not and cannot be attributed only to Chams, many leftists left for bigger cities to avoid persecution and discrimination after the civil war.
in sagiada.gr before the paragraph you copy-pasted here it says : "Το 1943 οι Γερμανοί μαζί με τους Αλβανοτσάμηδες του γειτονικού μουσουλμανικού χωριού Λιόψη, έκαψαν το χωριό και οι κάτοικοί του σκορπίστηκαν στα χωριά προς τα βόρεια ενώ όταν τέλειωσε ο πόλεμος οδηγήθηκαν από το στρατό στην Κέρκυρα για την περίοδο του εμφύλιου. Γύρισαν λίγο πριν τη λήξη τους αλλά δεν τους επέτρεψαν να κατοικήσουν στο παλιό χωριό αλλά σε καλύβες στην παραλία."
From the two paragraphs we understand that the old village was destroyed by the Germans in collaboration with the Chams that inhabited the nearby village of Liopsi. The new village was created near the sea and a part of the land used was fields owned by Chams. So no Cham village existed in the new location, only plains, and we know that because of their religion they had the biggest and best pieces of land from the Ottoman period although they were an overall minority, a part of their land was confiscated before WW2 but anyway, i just mentioned it as a hint.
in parapotamos.gr : we can conclude that the village was inhabited by Chams, and they probably were a majority.
There is no article for Sivota, the site states that in 1850 it was a small Cham village. Should we link Sivota with some other place ?
To my understanding only Parapotamos should have an Albanian name in the lead, funny, it's the only name that's completely different, all the other are clear transliterations or are closely connected with the Greek ones. I refrain from any further changes to the names for now, if you find any serious book about the issue please mention it here. I don't think the name additions you propose will stand for long. -- Zakronian ( talk) 01:24, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
On syvota, see e-syvota.gr and see the history section. On the other hand, on Igoumenitsa, there is a reference too. It says that there were albanians in Igoumenitsa (who collaborated with nazi). About Sagiada, the village was rebuilt nearby, but it is not a new village, it is a rebuilt village. On Parapotamos, we can conculde that the village was entirely albanian, by the way. This are official greek sources, but I agree with you that they are not reliable. But, they would not increase the number of chams, they would decrease it, so they may be referenced in here. I don`t know if I made my point clear? balkanian ( talk) 12:13, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
About Parapotamos, the official site of the municipality states that, so if you do not want to add the albanian name in wiki, ask the municipality to get rid of the sentence (joke). More references: In the town of Igoumenitsa, Albanian language is still spoken, by a minority of population. by miranda vickers and james pettifer. [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido ( talk • contribs) 15:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
About Filiates: The muslim albanian town of Filiates. Badlands - Borderlands: A History of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania - Page 120, Tom Winnifirth, ISBN 0715632019, 9780715632017 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido ( talk • contribs) 15:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
"The market towns of Filiates and Paramythia were mainly Albanian in speech", and this is by your loved NGL Hammond, in his book "Epirus: The Geography, the Ancient Remains, the History and Topography of Epirus and Adjacent Areas", page 27 balkanian ( talk) 15:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so we agreed about Filiates and Paramythia, sourced with Hammond, don`t we? About Parapotamos, I got your point, but the official site of the municipality in its history section, says about the chams. This site, contains history about the municipality, not just the village, or town. So, cham albanians are mentioned in municipality level, and the name is relevant. About Igoumenitsa, we have tow reasons to add the name. FIrstly, that there was an albanian minority (the chams), for whom we do not have a source about the number. and secondly, there is still an albanian-speaking (maybe having a greek seld identification), so the name should be added as local variant of the town. 217.24.247.227 ( talk) 15:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC) The above one is me. balkanian ( talk) 16:36, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
I know about "Kapodistria plan", but this is not my point. My point is that if a official website of a municipality states that "Parapotamos was inhabited by cham albanians", then "Parapotamos" would refer to the municipality, not only to the village, because it is the historical section of the municipalities website. about Igoumenitsa, the source states that there is still albanian speaking minority. We cannot assume that this is small or big minority, but we can assume that there is a minority. If there is a minority according to WP:NCGN, we should mention the name. balkanian ( talk) 10:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
About Igoumenitsa see also this, this and a lot of others. balkanian ( talk) 11:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
We have tow references. The first states that there was a large albanian minority in Igoumenitsa, and the second that the albanian language is still used in the town. For every one of this reasons the name should be included as per WP:NCGN balkanian ( talk) 16:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Nope, its not them. It is this, which is a study about albanians in Greece, by James Pettifer and Miranda Vickers, and the first you mentioned, which is not out of topic, but a historical book. balkanian ( talk) 17:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
There is an attempt for POV pushing by User:Factuarius, with sources like ELSME, which for sure is not a RS. He delets secondary RS, replacing them with ELSME, in order to make the article in compliance with Greek nationalistic POV. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 15:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
ELSME is an NGO, and the article has no single source. Thats why it is unreliable. There are plenty of sources that you deleted, like Mark Mazower, Georgia Kresti, etc etc, living an article from a NGO, without any source in it. And thats because, it just concludes on your point of view. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 16:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Which four? ELSME is an NGO and publishes a magazine, called PROVLIMATISMI, from which you took that reference. You do not even know where your source was written, what can I say? Balkanian`s word ( talk) 16:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
The other source is Eleytheria Manta, which is in Cham Albanians and Miranda Vickers, which is accused by your fellow editors as an albanian nationalist lol. So, a summary of Cham Albanians in here, is just the best we can do, if we want to avoid POV. But, you dont. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 16:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
"Until the Second World War, the town and the wider area had a mixed population of Greeks and Cham Albanians. During the Axis Occupation of Greece (1941-1944), some local Chams actively collaborated with the occupation forces, forming the Këshilla organization and participating in anti-partisan sweeps and reprisals. [1] Others however joined the Greek Resistance, fighting in the ranks of the leftist Greek People's Liberation Army (ELAS), while the majority remained uninvolved. Nevertheless, in 1944, as the Germans withdrew from Greece, the right-wing EDES guerrillas accused the entire Muslim Cham population of collaborationism, and consequently expelled them to Albania as a collective punishment. [2] [3]"
What do you think? Constantine ✍ 17:08, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Factuarius you are one inch from breaking the 3RE rule, so let us discuss the matter and if you can provide us with english reliable sources then all changes will be accepted-- Sarandioti ( talk) 17:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
The issues about Factuarius's sources are 2: a) they are from a greek organization, whose history shows clearly that it certainly is NOT NPOV, therefore it is NOT reliable by wikipedia standards b)this is merely a translation from a greek source.Factuarius, please find an ENGLISH source, and then we can discuss this. You said this is a "matter between us". This is not an albanian-greek issue, this is an ENCYCLOPEDIA which we all try to maintain NPOV. Bear that in mind. -- Sarandioti ( talk) 18:26, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Constantine I will get more sources about the greek victims. And I will also insist in mention also their active participation in the Holocaust against the Jewish of the area (also official documented):
"Muslim Cham units also played an active part in the Holocaust in Greece, including the round-up and expulsion to Auschwitz and Birkenau of the 2,000-strong Romaniote Greek-Jewish community of Ioannina in April 1944." [Mazower, Mark. "Inside Hitler's Greece: The Experience of Occupation, 1941-44". Yale University Press, 1993, ISBN 0300089236.] -- Factuarius ( talk) 18:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the trimmed version, unless it's something more specific concerning the town. The articles are relatively small anyway. Alexikoua ( talk) 06:38, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Just a note: Mazower puts for reasons for their expulsion:
So, if we want to put the reasons in one sentence, it should be the four of them, not just one of them. Thanks, Balkanian`s word ( talk) 16:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
"Town X was home to a Cham Albanian community until the end of World War II, when they were expelled to Albania by the EDES resistance as a collective punishment for the collaboration of some Chams with the Axis occupation forces and the rival communist EAM-ELAS resitance group." That should cover it. -- Athenean ( talk) 18:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
References
About their active part in the Holocaust in Epirus, I made an inquire to the Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece. I hope to have an official position about that soon to clear the matter. About the Greeks the expression “some of them” is totally misleading. From a community of 15 or even 18,000 people 2,109 of them convicted for atrocities during the occupation by name from the official legal system of the state. 2,109 out of a population of 18,000 is not some, is nearly everybody could take arms (the most efficient conscription rate of the era was 8:1 both in France, Germany and USSR). What EDES or EAM could have with them is one issue, you can say whatever you want. What the official State had with them is an other issue. If it's too much to mention both issues we cannot omit the official one. It is so clear that most of them took their families and took the way to Albania just to avoid persecution for what they had done during the occupation. So, the expression “some” must go or the numbers of the convicted against that of the population must mentioned in order not to mislead the reader, and the “fleeing the country to avoid legal persecution” must added. I cannot imagine how we can override their legal-problem reasons in fleeing. Am I wrong? -- Factuarius ( talk) 01:09, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
According to the official greek census of 1940 there were 16,600, according the prewar League of Nations estimations 20,000. No, they were convicted for collaboration and atrocities (conviction nr. 344/23-4-1945 του Ειδικού Δικαστηρίου δοσιλόγων Ιωαννίνων, and the subsequent named convictions after). Also according to a US-officer report many left the country with german transportation means during their retreat from Greece. The ELAS-fighters' number is grossly overestimated, many of them, before going to ELAS, actually took active part in the atrocities. The figures 2,109 and 1,000 are not about two diferent groups of people as you believe. They went to ELAS after 1943 only to escape the legal consequences after the nearing end of the war and ELAS took them, as you know, because of its local conflict with EDES and the urgent need in eliminating EDES in Epirus (it was a similar story with the members of the SNOF). Make no mistake, they preferred to go to ELAS and not to EDES because everybody in Greece knew after the Psaros incident that EDES had not a single chance to survive in Epirus after the liberation (as indeed happened) and not because of their democratic, progressive and national liberating feelings. Their opportunistic policies just lead them to ride on the false horse for a second time, this time to avoid persecution for what they did riding the Axis horse. Thats the real story about, all the others are just to hide it. If you have a sound reason in preferring to hide it let me know and maybe I can agree with you. -- Factuarius ( talk) 10:21, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
OK, I believe the official greek census of 16,600 or the (not friendly on that) League of Nations 20,000 figure and if I have to accept another figure I will stay in the ridiculous “Chameria Association” figure of 35,000. I will never accept your 50,000 figure you insisting Constantine. But I am alone on that. I am sure that very soon you will find at least two fellow participants to agree with you, so I am a minority for sure on the issue. Do -both of you- whatever you want with the article, put 50,000, write nothing about their collaboration with the nazis, note nothing about their convictions, saying nothing about their atrocities and explain in detail how those beasts the greeks suddenly took knifes to butcher them. I am out. Congratulations, you sold the problem now everybody can learn what really happened. Bye -- Factuarius ( talk) 14:26, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
"Αντίθετα από τον ΕΔΕΣ, το EAM τήρησε μια περίεργη στάση σε σχέση με τους Τσάμηδες. Επιχείρησε επανειλημμένα ανοίγματα που βασίζονταν στον μάλλον πλασματικό διαχωρισμό «μιας δράκας προδοτών» από την πλειοψηφία του πληθυσμού -πλασματικό στον βαθμό που ο παραδοσιακός αυτός πληθυσμός ακολουθούσε τους ηγέτες του και έδειχνε μια προτίμηση προς την κατοχική διοίκηση ακόμη και όταν δεν συμμετείχε άμεσα σε πράξεις βίας. Για αυτόν τον λόγο η τακτική του EAM δεν έγινε κατανοητή ούτε από τον τοπικό ελληνικό πληθυσμό ούτε από τα ίδια του τοπικά στελέχη που ανέφεραν στις εσωτερικές τους εκθέσεις τις οποίες παραθέτει η Μαντά ότι «η παμψηφία σχεδόν των αρβανιτάδων Τσάμηδων της περιοχής είχε ταχθή ανεπιφύλαχτα με το μέρος του κατακτητή και ωργάνωνε δολοφονικές επιδρομές ενάντια στα ελληνικά χωριά». Ο ΕΛΑΣ τελικά στρατολόγησε γύρω στους 300 ως 500 Τσάμηδες που συμμετείχαν στις εμφύλιες συγκρούσεις με τον ΕΔΕΣ τον Δεκέμβριο του '44. H επικράτηση του ΕΛΑΣ συνοδεύτηκε από την επιστροφή 3.000 ως 5.000 Τσάμηδων στη Θεσπρωτία. H τελική όμως έκβαση των Δεκεμβριανών οδήγησε σε νέες διώξεις από τους οπλαρχηγούς του ΕΔΕΣ και στην τελική εκδίωξή τους." ΣΤΑΘΗΣ ΚΑΛΥΒΑΣ καθηγητής Πολιτικής Επιστήμης στο Πανεπιστήμιο Yale, το ΒΗΜΑ Κυριακή 4 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 (Ένας ακόμα φασίστας εθνικιστής στο Βήμα) -- Factuarius ( talk) 14:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
The above is from a "book written by historian you fellow participant: E.K.Manta "Muslim Albanians in Greece. The Chams of Epirus (1923 - 2000)" according documents from (the very friedly then) ELLAS. So, are you OK? The nr. of the convictions are OK? The numbers of the Chams in the wikipedia's their expulsion article as it is documented is it OK? All we need more is a standard calculator and enough honesty to say the truth here and there. Is this OK?-- Factuarius ( talk) 17:44, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
The number is exactly the issue I wonder how can I put it to understanding it. If almost all able men of almost every family had took the (german) arms and starting burning and killing hand-to-hand with the germans who could be so idiot to stay after the germans left the country. Thus they had also to flee. "most of them to avoid legal persecution for atrocities committed in collaboration with the Nazi occupational forces" Balkanian`s understand it very well I understand it very well how you cannot? The numbers are the key of the issue of understanding what really happened, you and the reader.-- Factuarius ( talk) 18:02, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Is this your answer on what I am asking you? -- Factuarius ( talk) 19:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
I gave you the necessary sources for the story at 17:44 what else do you want, to give you? The articles are not copy-pastings from books especially the books you like. They have also logic and indeed I will go to the Cham Albanians article I have already inform you about that. Now are you going to answer my question so to close the issue here?-- Factuarius ( talk) 19:59, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
What truth did I mention truth? I mention logic. Do you disagree? Stop terrorizing me with links. I only mention logic. Now can you answer me what directly I am asking you in order to agree with you in everything and to give us an end to this long discussion? -- Factuarius ( talk) 20:09, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Athenean do you really believe that the discussion is about the article's link? What he is trying is to put the expression Expulsion in the phrase even as a link. Whose idea was it of Taulant23, Sarandioti or yours Balkanian`s word? -- Factuarius ( talk) 20:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
The phrace:
"Igoumenitsa was home of a minority community of Cham Albanians, until 1944 when they forced to leave the country to avoid legal persecution for large scalled atrocities committed in collaboration with the Nazi occupational forces during Axis occupation of Greece"
The word "forced" added to content Balkans. I am not agree in omit colaboration. And I don't agree to say nothing about the reason of their elimination from the community. If it was just "ethnic cleaning" why greeks didn't do it before 1944? -- Factuarius ( talk) 10:09, 7 June 2009 (UTC)--
Or I have no problem in agree to go to the Balkanian`s phrase "Until the Second World War, Igoumenitsa was home to a community of Cham Albanians." with the link he wished for the Expulsion of Cham Albanians, when Balkanian`s will answer my question in how according his opinion they could believe to escape legal persecutions for their collaboration and atrocities committed If they stayed. The numbers indicating that almost every family had men involved in collaboration and atrocities. Just give me that. We cannot totaly ban common sence from the article because we just don't like it ---- Factuarius ( talk) 10:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)\
This is not an answer is the denial of the question. First, as we have discuss it a day now the collaborators were not “a minority” where almost all combat-able males of its community, if you don't believe it I told you to confirm it with a calculator. Second, I agree that the best was to stay and pay for their crimes, problem is they disagreed with us, so this is not an answer. Third, your argument that their sons may have became prime ministers is “η μπάλα στην εξέδρα”. Εven the prime minister Konstantinos Logothetopoulos convicted for life's prison just for his collaboration without having made any atrocities as was their case, be more informed about. Rallis was more of a persona of English (even Germans knew it) as was the case with Damaskinos than of the Germans, read more about it. Now, do you have any better ideas in answering or we will continue to play around.-- Factuarius ( talk) 15:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Why have you answer any? You are always playing with the words. I am not completely idiot to play me in such a way. Off course the collaborators where a minority against their community, every army is a minority against its people, babies women and grandmothers cannot fight, collaborate or make atrocities, the combat-able men do such things, But these particular men where not idiots to stay and prosecuted, when the easy solution was a day long. I am not the person to answer why after what they had done against the unarmed civilians during the occupation they preferred to take their families with them. Ask them. By the way do you really have Manda's book? have you really read it? Do you find it reliable? Because I am going to use it extensively in some articles, so I am happy in seen you to use her.-- Factuarius ( talk) 16:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
«η παμψηφία σχεδόν των αρβανιτάδων Τσάμηδων της περιοχής είχε ταχθή ανεπιφύλαχτα με το μέρος του κατακτητή και ωργάνωνε δολοφονικές επιδρομές ενάντια στα ελληνικά χωριά» Manda-- Factuarius ( talk) 16:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
With lies upon lies nobody can expect to go far. Except you. No, as the other half of the Manda's phrase you don't want to mention, indicates, this report is not from EDES but from the friedly EAM. For the english users you are trying to mislead so shameless, this is her complete phrace:
-- Factuarius ( talk) 07:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Greek source = POV source. Let's move on. If u want to continue this, there's always the sandbox --
Sarandioti (
talk) 07:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC) Sorry user blocked as sockpuppet.
Alexikoua (
talk)
05:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Interesting facts, it can be added on Chami article. I believe Manda said something about the Cham burning of Igoumenitsa, can u check out? This could fit in here. Alexikoua ( talk) 05:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Do you ask? So you don't have the book? How you used it before? Not only endorse that almost unanimously (not just the majority) Chams collaborated, but she is proving it by providing the confidential reports of the EAM officers protesting to their HQ for its opportunistic Cham-friendly policy, which could have not been understood by the local Greek population, nor from them. Since «almost unanimously Albanian Tsami of the area, prescribed unpreservedly with the part of the conqueror and organized murderous raids against the Greek villages.» Buy the book.-- Factuarius ( talk) 13:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
You had to think about the "consensus" before used her. And also this is Igoumenitsa's talk. I will start a new discussion about the sources matter in the Cham Albanians talk section, hoping to find support for a limited use of local sources. Will see. -- Factuarius ( talk) 16:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Why not discuss these facts, the article has gaps on the WWii section. I can't understand why Manda sould not mentioned as supporting material. Also Vickers states it clear:[
[6]
Want to know more?
Manda is also used as an rs by Vickers and the article has already Greek and Albanian sources as supporting material.
Alexikoua (
talk)
16:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
It's her position based among others to the confidential reports of the EAM officers READ THE BOOK! -- Factuarius ( talk) 17:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Welcome back. What strong POV? You have a consensus? With who and in what article? In every article in wikipedia? To this one? I don't thing so, I find no such consensus agreement all over the discussion page. See by yourself. I also found that in the Cham's discussion page you also mention a consensus about authors in some 20 times but a more detailed reading of all postings shown that this is more of a invention of yours and nobody agreed about it in the first place. Which is also the reason that this article has 23 greek sources, including some of yours or other fellow albanian users. What you are doing is to repeat the same story here as there. The problem is that unlike there, this discussion page is relatively small and everyone can easily find out that there was no such consensus agreement except in your imagination. For everyone who has the time I also suggest to go to the Chams discussion page to find out how by repeating that supposed "consensus" over the sources, everybody at last accepted that as a fact, without anyone having agreed about in first place. -- Factuarius ( talk) 16:48, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
No, what your link shows is one user (Alexikoua) only partly agreed. Explain "all". Also this is Igoumenitsa's article and still you are to explain where is the consensus you are mentioning here. You are also wrong when you say that every greek source in Chams article is not about WW2. Read them again. Also you are wrong saying that I put a note from Manta about WW2. It is about the prewar situation. Also you are misleading by saying me to propose something NPOV since I put both Owen Pearson and Bernd J. Fischer which are not greek authors and you also deleted my paragraph. I suggesting to stop lying and stop deleting and saying "goto the discussion". We are discussing here 15 days and you have dismised everything being totaly absent a week now. -- Factuarius ( talk) 17:32, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I removed the propaganda which I never heard about Chams burning their own city, The city was burned by zerva's troops in 1944 who came to terrorize the population there which were Ethnic albanian chams and ethnically cleans the city but whole part of Southern Epir (Chameria) please if anyone wants to make propaganda against poor innocent people that got nothing to do with nazi germans go in some other sites not in Wiki which is supposed to be a serious site not a HATE site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.99.251.53 ( talk) 17:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
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It's weird to claim that a person was born in this settlement while the correspondent article does not cite this fact. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:41, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
The following edit claimed it to be Arvanitika dialect [7] and then the other edit changed it to a nameless dialect, [8] while in the edit summary the editor claimed that it is Cham dialect. The quote from the source and the page number are missing and wouldn't be verified. So we don't know if it is Arvanitika, or Cham? The edit was reinstated without consensus and without providing the necessary information required for verification.
I want WP:GOODFAITH believe that Alltan's ignoring of the "No consensus for this edit" [9] was merely a mistake of the moment and not a sign suggesting a persistent behavior of ignoring the importance of seeking consensus for disputed edits. The unverified edit will be removed again as there is no consensus for inclusion unless the editor provides the necessary quote and page number for verification. If the edit is reinstated without seeking WP:CONSENSUS by providing the quote and page number necessary for WP:VERIFICATION. then this will be considered disruptive case of brute-forcing at the expense of WP:ONUS and I will inform admin Cullen.
Edit: Added {{which}} tag as well [10]. - ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 23:39, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
To the south in Greece, there are traditional settlements of Camerian dialect speakers, in particular around Igoumenitsa and Parga in Epirus.. Since he speaks of multiple settlements, he is doubtless referring to Margariti, Agia, Ammoudia, etc. But he doesn't say in Parga or Igoumenitsa itself. Khirurg ( talk) 21:54, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
@ AlexBachmann: which source (i e. the book title, author and page) does say "In a town such as Igoumenitsa (Albanian Goumenitsa), the Albanian language is still spoken by a minority of inhabitants"? Ktrimi991 ( talk) 22:00, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
If there are three or more alternative names, or if there is something notable about the names themselves, they may be moved to and discussed in a separate section with a title such as "Names" or "Etymology".. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 22:17, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
Nevertheless, other names, especially those used significantly often (say, 10% of the time or more) in the available English literature on a place, past or present, should be mentioned in the article, as encyclopedic information. Two or three alternative names can be mentioned in the first line of the article; it is general Wikipedia practice to bold them so they stand out. If there are more names than this, or the lead section is cluttered, a separate paragraph on the names of the place is often a good idea.It's clearly not the case here, and even more so in Parga. But I'm talking to someone who did this. Khirurg ( talk) 22:40, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted." In light of this, then the Albanian name should be permitted on lede. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 12:00, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
I am disappointed now to find that there have been inconsistencies ("double standards") in the Naming Convention's application among towns in the two Topic Areas. I recommend that editors who asked for the application of the general guideline here: "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted
.", to do the same for other cities in the area, such as
Gjirokaster. Or else I will believe this to be a
WP:BadFaith case of
Double Standards. I don't even want to read the past conversations on those article's talk pages and rather propose here a
Gordian knot-cutting proposal that everybody involved in this dispute, respects the guideline, and thus, add Albanian names in Greek towns where Albanian populations are still living, and add Greek names in Albanian towns where Greek populations are still living. Who does agree with me in keeping the articles in an area consistent with each other and in line with the
Wikipedia's Naming Conventions regarding Alternate Names? ---
❖ SilentResident ❖ (
talk ✉ |
contribs ✎)
08:49, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
Ethnic minorities are also found in Greece and are fully recognized.are you kidding me right now? Also, Albania's minority rights are not comparable to Greece's by any means.
are you kidding me right now? Also, Albania's minority rights are not comparable to Greece's by any means. Perhaps Turkey's are." I am presenting here the Civil Liberties and Religious Freedom Indexes for the year 2021 so that the Wikipedia community can assess them and see how Super Dromaeosaurus's statements about the human rights/religious rights situation in countries is indeed as comparable as the editor claims to be:
The name section appears in need of corrections & upgrades since the current text isn't supported by the available inline refenrence. Alexikoua ( talk) 02:40, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Speaking Albanian, for example, is not a predictor with respect to other matters of identity .. There are also long standing Christian Albanian (or Arvanitika speaking) communities both in Epirus and the Florina district of Macedonia with unquestioned identification with the Greek nation.Totally different situation from the Greeks in Albania, who identify as Greeks. Khirurg ( talk) 15:55, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
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I have edited the formerly cham inhabited places with albnaian names in the lead, along with their greek form. The reason I edited them is WP:NCGN which states that "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted". The sources we have shows that there was a minority in the towns and villages, so there is "a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place". It is the same reason that the names are used in Vlora, Berat, Durres, etc, were no greeks live, but there was a ancient greek colony in there. So we shopuld start a disccusion in order to find a solution, avoiding double standards. balkanian ( talk) 12:58, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
The Miranda Vickers source doesn't help very much, it's basically a description of the modern dispute with little information of the past, it doesn't state any figures either apart from the 14.000 that live in Saranda, no evidence as to whether Chams were a historical majority in any place. Not much about the history of the region in general. Another thing is how much credibility we should give to an article that is published by a military college. The wiki articles of the cities and towns in Albania you are referring to have an extensive and properly sourced history section as Ioannina or Epirus (region). Anyway i can see that in Durres for example there is a same problem, the arguement for the deletion of the Greek name there is that it is not officially recognized by the state although its history is clearly documented. I see no reason not to add the names the Turkish and Jewish populations also used following the same wikipedia policies. As for the modern Albanian speaking element in Epirus in Cham Albanians there's a source that states that if they exist at all they are very hard to find. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zakronian ( talk • contribs) 17:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
In Berat and Vlore the greek names are in the lead. In Durres page there is a name section, and thats why there is no name in the lead, neither the Albanian one. In Thesprotia region and in norther part of Preveza prefecture, there were at least 1/3 muslim chams, and we do not know what was the number of orthodox albanians. Please see the study of a greek historian, Γ. Κτιστάκης. He states that there were about 20.000 muslimm chams, in a region that had a population of 70.000. and that there is no official number of orthodox albanians, exept the italian occupation cnesus. "Το 1923 στην Τσαμουριά ζούσαν 20.319 μουσουλμάνοι που είχαν τα αλβανικά ως μητρική γλώσσα19. Το 1925 η αλβανική κυβέρνηση έδωσε τον αριθμό των 25.000 μουσουλμάνων20. Από την απογραφή του 1928 προέκυψε ότι στην Ήπειρο ζούσαν 17.008 μουσουλμάνοι αλβανικής γλώσσας21. Το 1938 αναφέρθηκαν από την Γενική Διοίκηση Ηπείρου 17.311 αλβανομουσουλμάνοι στην περιοχή22. Η επεξεργασία των αποτελεσμάτων του 1940 δεν ολοκληρώθηκε ποτέ αλλά σύμφωνα με μία πηγή οι μουσουλμάνοι της περιοχής ανέρχονταν σε 16.66123. Σύμφωνα με μία άλλη -πιο αξιόπιστη- πηγή, οι μουσουλμάνοι ανέρχονταν σε 21.000 έως 22.00024. Τέλος, οι ιταλοί υπολόγισαν το 1941, κατά τρόπο όμως υπερβολικό, ότι στην περιοχή κατοικούσαν 26.000 χριστιανοί Αλβανοί Τσάμηδες, 28.000 μουσουλμάνοι Αλβανοί Τσάμηδες έναντι μόνο 20.000 Ελλήνων25". Even if there were only 25%, which is the lowest number, there surely was a large minority. balkanian ( talk) 11:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
We are talking about a certain region. Thesprotia and Preveza, which consist Chameria. The auther explains that they lived in the all region, and most of all he is anti-cham. You can find the hole work here. they were minority in some towns, and majority in some others, but the fact is that they were, they existed and according to WP:NCGN their name should be in the lead. balkanian ( talk) 19:34, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
[blog.aacl.com/document-of-the-committee-of-cham-albanians this] is the document of Cham Anti-fascist Committee, conducted in 1946, when they were expelled. You can read there were they were majority, or big minority. 217.24.247.227 ( talk) 12:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Please also read this: "Στην διάρκεια του Β' Παγκοσμίου Πολέμου η περιοχή υπέφερε από τα στρατεύματα κατοχής τα οποία κατέστρεψαν εντελώς την Ηγουμενίτσα και συνεργάζονταν με ντόπιους Αλβανοτσάμηδες. Η εκδίωξη τους μετά την απελευθέρωση έφερε ανακατατάξεις και νέους πληθυσμούς από τα ορεινά της Θεσπρωτίας και άλλα μέρη της Ελλάδας, οι οποίοι πύκνωσαν τον πληθυσμό της Ηγουμενίτσας." It is from Igoumenitsa`s official page, igoumenitsa.gr. It says that when chams were expelled there was a riconfiguring of population. balkanian ( talk) 12:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
"Parapotamos was inhabited by Muslim Turk-Albanians until 1944 who were driven off by the rebels (who it is known that they had joined the conquerors)." the official site of the municipality, www.parapotamos.gr balkanian ( talk) 12:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Official site of sagiada, sagiada.gr:"Από το 1950 με πυρήνα λίγα σπίτια που φτιάχτηκαν από το κράτος , δημιουργήθηκε το καινούριο χωριό κοντά στη θάλασσα και τον κάμπο που από τα χέρια των Αλβανοτσάμηδων πέρασε σ’ αυτούς και άλλους πρόσφυγες από την Ήπειρο. " balkanian ( talk) 13:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
e-sivota.gr:"Το 1850 κατοικούνταν από 40 τουρκοτσιάμικες οικογένειες. Παράγει λάδι, βελανίδια και ψάρια. Ονομαζόταν Μούρτος από το όνομα κάποιου προκρίτου ο οποίος φορολογούσε και λαφυραγωγούσε τα διερχόμενα εμπορικά πλοία επί τουρκοκρατίας. Σήμερα κατοικείται από Έλληνες που ροβόλησαν από τα ορεινά χωριά της Ηπείρου." balkanian ( talk) 13:09, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
in igoumenitsa.gr only Graikohori village is specifically mentioned to have a decreased population due to the leave of Chams. In the demographics archive it is clearly stated that Igoumenitsa's population increased while the whole of Thesprotia saw a decrease by 31%, all these from 1913 till 1951. Note that the decrease is not and cannot be attributed only to Chams, many leftists left for bigger cities to avoid persecution and discrimination after the civil war.
in sagiada.gr before the paragraph you copy-pasted here it says : "Το 1943 οι Γερμανοί μαζί με τους Αλβανοτσάμηδες του γειτονικού μουσουλμανικού χωριού Λιόψη, έκαψαν το χωριό και οι κάτοικοί του σκορπίστηκαν στα χωριά προς τα βόρεια ενώ όταν τέλειωσε ο πόλεμος οδηγήθηκαν από το στρατό στην Κέρκυρα για την περίοδο του εμφύλιου. Γύρισαν λίγο πριν τη λήξη τους αλλά δεν τους επέτρεψαν να κατοικήσουν στο παλιό χωριό αλλά σε καλύβες στην παραλία."
From the two paragraphs we understand that the old village was destroyed by the Germans in collaboration with the Chams that inhabited the nearby village of Liopsi. The new village was created near the sea and a part of the land used was fields owned by Chams. So no Cham village existed in the new location, only plains, and we know that because of their religion they had the biggest and best pieces of land from the Ottoman period although they were an overall minority, a part of their land was confiscated before WW2 but anyway, i just mentioned it as a hint.
in parapotamos.gr : we can conclude that the village was inhabited by Chams, and they probably were a majority.
There is no article for Sivota, the site states that in 1850 it was a small Cham village. Should we link Sivota with some other place ?
To my understanding only Parapotamos should have an Albanian name in the lead, funny, it's the only name that's completely different, all the other are clear transliterations or are closely connected with the Greek ones. I refrain from any further changes to the names for now, if you find any serious book about the issue please mention it here. I don't think the name additions you propose will stand for long. -- Zakronian ( talk) 01:24, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
On syvota, see e-syvota.gr and see the history section. On the other hand, on Igoumenitsa, there is a reference too. It says that there were albanians in Igoumenitsa (who collaborated with nazi). About Sagiada, the village was rebuilt nearby, but it is not a new village, it is a rebuilt village. On Parapotamos, we can conculde that the village was entirely albanian, by the way. This are official greek sources, but I agree with you that they are not reliable. But, they would not increase the number of chams, they would decrease it, so they may be referenced in here. I don`t know if I made my point clear? balkanian ( talk) 12:13, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
About Parapotamos, the official site of the municipality states that, so if you do not want to add the albanian name in wiki, ask the municipality to get rid of the sentence (joke). More references: In the town of Igoumenitsa, Albanian language is still spoken, by a minority of population. by miranda vickers and james pettifer. [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido ( talk • contribs) 15:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
About Filiates: The muslim albanian town of Filiates. Badlands - Borderlands: A History of Northern Epirus/Southern Albania - Page 120, Tom Winnifirth, ISBN 0715632019, 9780715632017 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arditbido ( talk • contribs) 15:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
"The market towns of Filiates and Paramythia were mainly Albanian in speech", and this is by your loved NGL Hammond, in his book "Epirus: The Geography, the Ancient Remains, the History and Topography of Epirus and Adjacent Areas", page 27 balkanian ( talk) 15:43, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so we agreed about Filiates and Paramythia, sourced with Hammond, don`t we? About Parapotamos, I got your point, but the official site of the municipality in its history section, says about the chams. This site, contains history about the municipality, not just the village, or town. So, cham albanians are mentioned in municipality level, and the name is relevant. About Igoumenitsa, we have tow reasons to add the name. FIrstly, that there was an albanian minority (the chams), for whom we do not have a source about the number. and secondly, there is still an albanian-speaking (maybe having a greek seld identification), so the name should be added as local variant of the town. 217.24.247.227 ( talk) 15:07, 31 August 2008 (UTC) The above one is me. balkanian ( talk) 16:36, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
I know about "Kapodistria plan", but this is not my point. My point is that if a official website of a municipality states that "Parapotamos was inhabited by cham albanians", then "Parapotamos" would refer to the municipality, not only to the village, because it is the historical section of the municipalities website. about Igoumenitsa, the source states that there is still albanian speaking minority. We cannot assume that this is small or big minority, but we can assume that there is a minority. If there is a minority according to WP:NCGN, we should mention the name. balkanian ( talk) 10:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
About Igoumenitsa see also this, this and a lot of others. balkanian ( talk) 11:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
We have tow references. The first states that there was a large albanian minority in Igoumenitsa, and the second that the albanian language is still used in the town. For every one of this reasons the name should be included as per WP:NCGN balkanian ( talk) 16:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Nope, its not them. It is this, which is a study about albanians in Greece, by James Pettifer and Miranda Vickers, and the first you mentioned, which is not out of topic, but a historical book. balkanian ( talk) 17:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
There is an attempt for POV pushing by User:Factuarius, with sources like ELSME, which for sure is not a RS. He delets secondary RS, replacing them with ELSME, in order to make the article in compliance with Greek nationalistic POV. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 15:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
ELSME is an NGO, and the article has no single source. Thats why it is unreliable. There are plenty of sources that you deleted, like Mark Mazower, Georgia Kresti, etc etc, living an article from a NGO, without any source in it. And thats because, it just concludes on your point of view. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 16:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Which four? ELSME is an NGO and publishes a magazine, called PROVLIMATISMI, from which you took that reference. You do not even know where your source was written, what can I say? Balkanian`s word ( talk) 16:49, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
The other source is Eleytheria Manta, which is in Cham Albanians and Miranda Vickers, which is accused by your fellow editors as an albanian nationalist lol. So, a summary of Cham Albanians in here, is just the best we can do, if we want to avoid POV. But, you dont. Balkanian`s word ( talk) 16:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
"Until the Second World War, the town and the wider area had a mixed population of Greeks and Cham Albanians. During the Axis Occupation of Greece (1941-1944), some local Chams actively collaborated with the occupation forces, forming the Këshilla organization and participating in anti-partisan sweeps and reprisals. [1] Others however joined the Greek Resistance, fighting in the ranks of the leftist Greek People's Liberation Army (ELAS), while the majority remained uninvolved. Nevertheless, in 1944, as the Germans withdrew from Greece, the right-wing EDES guerrillas accused the entire Muslim Cham population of collaborationism, and consequently expelled them to Albania as a collective punishment. [2] [3]"
What do you think? Constantine ✍ 17:08, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Factuarius you are one inch from breaking the 3RE rule, so let us discuss the matter and if you can provide us with english reliable sources then all changes will be accepted-- Sarandioti ( talk) 17:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
The issues about Factuarius's sources are 2: a) they are from a greek organization, whose history shows clearly that it certainly is NOT NPOV, therefore it is NOT reliable by wikipedia standards b)this is merely a translation from a greek source.Factuarius, please find an ENGLISH source, and then we can discuss this. You said this is a "matter between us". This is not an albanian-greek issue, this is an ENCYCLOPEDIA which we all try to maintain NPOV. Bear that in mind. -- Sarandioti ( talk) 18:26, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Constantine I will get more sources about the greek victims. And I will also insist in mention also their active participation in the Holocaust against the Jewish of the area (also official documented):
"Muslim Cham units also played an active part in the Holocaust in Greece, including the round-up and expulsion to Auschwitz and Birkenau of the 2,000-strong Romaniote Greek-Jewish community of Ioannina in April 1944." [Mazower, Mark. "Inside Hitler's Greece: The Experience of Occupation, 1941-44". Yale University Press, 1993, ISBN 0300089236.] -- Factuarius ( talk) 18:31, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the trimmed version, unless it's something more specific concerning the town. The articles are relatively small anyway. Alexikoua ( talk) 06:38, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Just a note: Mazower puts for reasons for their expulsion:
So, if we want to put the reasons in one sentence, it should be the four of them, not just one of them. Thanks, Balkanian`s word ( talk) 16:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
"Town X was home to a Cham Albanian community until the end of World War II, when they were expelled to Albania by the EDES resistance as a collective punishment for the collaboration of some Chams with the Axis occupation forces and the rival communist EAM-ELAS resitance group." That should cover it. -- Athenean ( talk) 18:06, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
References
About their active part in the Holocaust in Epirus, I made an inquire to the Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece. I hope to have an official position about that soon to clear the matter. About the Greeks the expression “some of them” is totally misleading. From a community of 15 or even 18,000 people 2,109 of them convicted for atrocities during the occupation by name from the official legal system of the state. 2,109 out of a population of 18,000 is not some, is nearly everybody could take arms (the most efficient conscription rate of the era was 8:1 both in France, Germany and USSR). What EDES or EAM could have with them is one issue, you can say whatever you want. What the official State had with them is an other issue. If it's too much to mention both issues we cannot omit the official one. It is so clear that most of them took their families and took the way to Albania just to avoid persecution for what they had done during the occupation. So, the expression “some” must go or the numbers of the convicted against that of the population must mentioned in order not to mislead the reader, and the “fleeing the country to avoid legal persecution” must added. I cannot imagine how we can override their legal-problem reasons in fleeing. Am I wrong? -- Factuarius ( talk) 01:09, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
According to the official greek census of 1940 there were 16,600, according the prewar League of Nations estimations 20,000. No, they were convicted for collaboration and atrocities (conviction nr. 344/23-4-1945 του Ειδικού Δικαστηρίου δοσιλόγων Ιωαννίνων, and the subsequent named convictions after). Also according to a US-officer report many left the country with german transportation means during their retreat from Greece. The ELAS-fighters' number is grossly overestimated, many of them, before going to ELAS, actually took active part in the atrocities. The figures 2,109 and 1,000 are not about two diferent groups of people as you believe. They went to ELAS after 1943 only to escape the legal consequences after the nearing end of the war and ELAS took them, as you know, because of its local conflict with EDES and the urgent need in eliminating EDES in Epirus (it was a similar story with the members of the SNOF). Make no mistake, they preferred to go to ELAS and not to EDES because everybody in Greece knew after the Psaros incident that EDES had not a single chance to survive in Epirus after the liberation (as indeed happened) and not because of their democratic, progressive and national liberating feelings. Their opportunistic policies just lead them to ride on the false horse for a second time, this time to avoid persecution for what they did riding the Axis horse. Thats the real story about, all the others are just to hide it. If you have a sound reason in preferring to hide it let me know and maybe I can agree with you. -- Factuarius ( talk) 10:21, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
OK, I believe the official greek census of 16,600 or the (not friendly on that) League of Nations 20,000 figure and if I have to accept another figure I will stay in the ridiculous “Chameria Association” figure of 35,000. I will never accept your 50,000 figure you insisting Constantine. But I am alone on that. I am sure that very soon you will find at least two fellow participants to agree with you, so I am a minority for sure on the issue. Do -both of you- whatever you want with the article, put 50,000, write nothing about their collaboration with the nazis, note nothing about their convictions, saying nothing about their atrocities and explain in detail how those beasts the greeks suddenly took knifes to butcher them. I am out. Congratulations, you sold the problem now everybody can learn what really happened. Bye -- Factuarius ( talk) 14:26, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
"Αντίθετα από τον ΕΔΕΣ, το EAM τήρησε μια περίεργη στάση σε σχέση με τους Τσάμηδες. Επιχείρησε επανειλημμένα ανοίγματα που βασίζονταν στον μάλλον πλασματικό διαχωρισμό «μιας δράκας προδοτών» από την πλειοψηφία του πληθυσμού -πλασματικό στον βαθμό που ο παραδοσιακός αυτός πληθυσμός ακολουθούσε τους ηγέτες του και έδειχνε μια προτίμηση προς την κατοχική διοίκηση ακόμη και όταν δεν συμμετείχε άμεσα σε πράξεις βίας. Για αυτόν τον λόγο η τακτική του EAM δεν έγινε κατανοητή ούτε από τον τοπικό ελληνικό πληθυσμό ούτε από τα ίδια του τοπικά στελέχη που ανέφεραν στις εσωτερικές τους εκθέσεις τις οποίες παραθέτει η Μαντά ότι «η παμψηφία σχεδόν των αρβανιτάδων Τσάμηδων της περιοχής είχε ταχθή ανεπιφύλαχτα με το μέρος του κατακτητή και ωργάνωνε δολοφονικές επιδρομές ενάντια στα ελληνικά χωριά». Ο ΕΛΑΣ τελικά στρατολόγησε γύρω στους 300 ως 500 Τσάμηδες που συμμετείχαν στις εμφύλιες συγκρούσεις με τον ΕΔΕΣ τον Δεκέμβριο του '44. H επικράτηση του ΕΛΑΣ συνοδεύτηκε από την επιστροφή 3.000 ως 5.000 Τσάμηδων στη Θεσπρωτία. H τελική όμως έκβαση των Δεκεμβριανών οδήγησε σε νέες διώξεις από τους οπλαρχηγούς του ΕΔΕΣ και στην τελική εκδίωξή τους." ΣΤΑΘΗΣ ΚΑΛΥΒΑΣ καθηγητής Πολιτικής Επιστήμης στο Πανεπιστήμιο Yale, το ΒΗΜΑ Κυριακή 4 Δεκεμβρίου 2005 (Ένας ακόμα φασίστας εθνικιστής στο Βήμα) -- Factuarius ( talk) 14:47, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
The above is from a "book written by historian you fellow participant: E.K.Manta "Muslim Albanians in Greece. The Chams of Epirus (1923 - 2000)" according documents from (the very friedly then) ELLAS. So, are you OK? The nr. of the convictions are OK? The numbers of the Chams in the wikipedia's their expulsion article as it is documented is it OK? All we need more is a standard calculator and enough honesty to say the truth here and there. Is this OK?-- Factuarius ( talk) 17:44, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
The number is exactly the issue I wonder how can I put it to understanding it. If almost all able men of almost every family had took the (german) arms and starting burning and killing hand-to-hand with the germans who could be so idiot to stay after the germans left the country. Thus they had also to flee. "most of them to avoid legal persecution for atrocities committed in collaboration with the Nazi occupational forces" Balkanian`s understand it very well I understand it very well how you cannot? The numbers are the key of the issue of understanding what really happened, you and the reader.-- Factuarius ( talk) 18:02, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Is this your answer on what I am asking you? -- Factuarius ( talk) 19:46, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
I gave you the necessary sources for the story at 17:44 what else do you want, to give you? The articles are not copy-pastings from books especially the books you like. They have also logic and indeed I will go to the Cham Albanians article I have already inform you about that. Now are you going to answer my question so to close the issue here?-- Factuarius ( talk) 19:59, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
What truth did I mention truth? I mention logic. Do you disagree? Stop terrorizing me with links. I only mention logic. Now can you answer me what directly I am asking you in order to agree with you in everything and to give us an end to this long discussion? -- Factuarius ( talk) 20:09, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
Athenean do you really believe that the discussion is about the article's link? What he is trying is to put the expression Expulsion in the phrase even as a link. Whose idea was it of Taulant23, Sarandioti or yours Balkanian`s word? -- Factuarius ( talk) 20:31, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
The phrace:
"Igoumenitsa was home of a minority community of Cham Albanians, until 1944 when they forced to leave the country to avoid legal persecution for large scalled atrocities committed in collaboration with the Nazi occupational forces during Axis occupation of Greece"
The word "forced" added to content Balkans. I am not agree in omit colaboration. And I don't agree to say nothing about the reason of their elimination from the community. If it was just "ethnic cleaning" why greeks didn't do it before 1944? -- Factuarius ( talk) 10:09, 7 June 2009 (UTC)--
Or I have no problem in agree to go to the Balkanian`s phrase "Until the Second World War, Igoumenitsa was home to a community of Cham Albanians." with the link he wished for the Expulsion of Cham Albanians, when Balkanian`s will answer my question in how according his opinion they could believe to escape legal persecutions for their collaboration and atrocities committed If they stayed. The numbers indicating that almost every family had men involved in collaboration and atrocities. Just give me that. We cannot totaly ban common sence from the article because we just don't like it ---- Factuarius ( talk) 10:51, 7 June 2009 (UTC)\
This is not an answer is the denial of the question. First, as we have discuss it a day now the collaborators were not “a minority” where almost all combat-able males of its community, if you don't believe it I told you to confirm it with a calculator. Second, I agree that the best was to stay and pay for their crimes, problem is they disagreed with us, so this is not an answer. Third, your argument that their sons may have became prime ministers is “η μπάλα στην εξέδρα”. Εven the prime minister Konstantinos Logothetopoulos convicted for life's prison just for his collaboration without having made any atrocities as was their case, be more informed about. Rallis was more of a persona of English (even Germans knew it) as was the case with Damaskinos than of the Germans, read more about it. Now, do you have any better ideas in answering or we will continue to play around.-- Factuarius ( talk) 15:36, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Why have you answer any? You are always playing with the words. I am not completely idiot to play me in such a way. Off course the collaborators where a minority against their community, every army is a minority against its people, babies women and grandmothers cannot fight, collaborate or make atrocities, the combat-able men do such things, But these particular men where not idiots to stay and prosecuted, when the easy solution was a day long. I am not the person to answer why after what they had done against the unarmed civilians during the occupation they preferred to take their families with them. Ask them. By the way do you really have Manda's book? have you really read it? Do you find it reliable? Because I am going to use it extensively in some articles, so I am happy in seen you to use her.-- Factuarius ( talk) 16:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
«η παμψηφία σχεδόν των αρβανιτάδων Τσάμηδων της περιοχής είχε ταχθή ανεπιφύλαχτα με το μέρος του κατακτητή και ωργάνωνε δολοφονικές επιδρομές ενάντια στα ελληνικά χωριά» Manda-- Factuarius ( talk) 16:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
With lies upon lies nobody can expect to go far. Except you. No, as the other half of the Manda's phrase you don't want to mention, indicates, this report is not from EDES but from the friedly EAM. For the english users you are trying to mislead so shameless, this is her complete phrace:
-- Factuarius ( talk) 07:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
Greek source = POV source. Let's move on. If u want to continue this, there's always the sandbox --
Sarandioti (
talk) 07:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC) Sorry user blocked as sockpuppet.
Alexikoua (
talk)
05:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Interesting facts, it can be added on Chami article. I believe Manda said something about the Cham burning of Igoumenitsa, can u check out? This could fit in here. Alexikoua ( talk) 05:16, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Do you ask? So you don't have the book? How you used it before? Not only endorse that almost unanimously (not just the majority) Chams collaborated, but she is proving it by providing the confidential reports of the EAM officers protesting to their HQ for its opportunistic Cham-friendly policy, which could have not been understood by the local Greek population, nor from them. Since «almost unanimously Albanian Tsami of the area, prescribed unpreservedly with the part of the conqueror and organized murderous raids against the Greek villages.» Buy the book.-- Factuarius ( talk) 13:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
You had to think about the "consensus" before used her. And also this is Igoumenitsa's talk. I will start a new discussion about the sources matter in the Cham Albanians talk section, hoping to find support for a limited use of local sources. Will see. -- Factuarius ( talk) 16:03, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Why not discuss these facts, the article has gaps on the WWii section. I can't understand why Manda sould not mentioned as supporting material. Also Vickers states it clear:[
[6]
Want to know more?
Manda is also used as an rs by Vickers and the article has already Greek and Albanian sources as supporting material.
Alexikoua (
talk)
16:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
It's her position based among others to the confidential reports of the EAM officers READ THE BOOK! -- Factuarius ( talk) 17:30, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Welcome back. What strong POV? You have a consensus? With who and in what article? In every article in wikipedia? To this one? I don't thing so, I find no such consensus agreement all over the discussion page. See by yourself. I also found that in the Cham's discussion page you also mention a consensus about authors in some 20 times but a more detailed reading of all postings shown that this is more of a invention of yours and nobody agreed about it in the first place. Which is also the reason that this article has 23 greek sources, including some of yours or other fellow albanian users. What you are doing is to repeat the same story here as there. The problem is that unlike there, this discussion page is relatively small and everyone can easily find out that there was no such consensus agreement except in your imagination. For everyone who has the time I also suggest to go to the Chams discussion page to find out how by repeating that supposed "consensus" over the sources, everybody at last accepted that as a fact, without anyone having agreed about in first place. -- Factuarius ( talk) 16:48, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
No, what your link shows is one user (Alexikoua) only partly agreed. Explain "all". Also this is Igoumenitsa's article and still you are to explain where is the consensus you are mentioning here. You are also wrong when you say that every greek source in Chams article is not about WW2. Read them again. Also you are wrong saying that I put a note from Manta about WW2. It is about the prewar situation. Also you are misleading by saying me to propose something NPOV since I put both Owen Pearson and Bernd J. Fischer which are not greek authors and you also deleted my paragraph. I suggesting to stop lying and stop deleting and saying "goto the discussion". We are discussing here 15 days and you have dismised everything being totaly absent a week now. -- Factuarius ( talk) 17:32, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
I removed the propaganda which I never heard about Chams burning their own city, The city was burned by zerva's troops in 1944 who came to terrorize the population there which were Ethnic albanian chams and ethnically cleans the city but whole part of Southern Epir (Chameria) please if anyone wants to make propaganda against poor innocent people that got nothing to do with nazi germans go in some other sites not in Wiki which is supposed to be a serious site not a HATE site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.99.251.53 ( talk) 17:58, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
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It's weird to claim that a person was born in this settlement while the correspondent article does not cite this fact. Alexikoua ( talk) 20:41, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
The following edit claimed it to be Arvanitika dialect [7] and then the other edit changed it to a nameless dialect, [8] while in the edit summary the editor claimed that it is Cham dialect. The quote from the source and the page number are missing and wouldn't be verified. So we don't know if it is Arvanitika, or Cham? The edit was reinstated without consensus and without providing the necessary information required for verification.
I want WP:GOODFAITH believe that Alltan's ignoring of the "No consensus for this edit" [9] was merely a mistake of the moment and not a sign suggesting a persistent behavior of ignoring the importance of seeking consensus for disputed edits. The unverified edit will be removed again as there is no consensus for inclusion unless the editor provides the necessary quote and page number for verification. If the edit is reinstated without seeking WP:CONSENSUS by providing the quote and page number necessary for WP:VERIFICATION. then this will be considered disruptive case of brute-forcing at the expense of WP:ONUS and I will inform admin Cullen.
Edit: Added {{which}} tag as well [10]. - ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 23:39, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
To the south in Greece, there are traditional settlements of Camerian dialect speakers, in particular around Igoumenitsa and Parga in Epirus.. Since he speaks of multiple settlements, he is doubtless referring to Margariti, Agia, Ammoudia, etc. But he doesn't say in Parga or Igoumenitsa itself. Khirurg ( talk) 21:54, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
@ AlexBachmann: which source (i e. the book title, author and page) does say "In a town such as Igoumenitsa (Albanian Goumenitsa), the Albanian language is still spoken by a minority of inhabitants"? Ktrimi991 ( talk) 22:00, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
If there are three or more alternative names, or if there is something notable about the names themselves, they may be moved to and discussed in a separate section with a title such as "Names" or "Etymology".. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 22:17, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
Nevertheless, other names, especially those used significantly often (say, 10% of the time or more) in the available English literature on a place, past or present, should be mentioned in the article, as encyclopedic information. Two or three alternative names can be mentioned in the first line of the article; it is general Wikipedia practice to bold them so they stand out. If there are more names than this, or the lead section is cluttered, a separate paragraph on the names of the place is often a good idea.It's clearly not the case here, and even more so in Parga. But I'm talking to someone who did this. Khirurg ( talk) 22:40, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted." In light of this, then the Albanian name should be permitted on lede. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ( talk ✉ | contribs ✎) 12:00, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
I am disappointed now to find that there have been inconsistencies ("double standards") in the Naming Convention's application among towns in the two Topic Areas. I recommend that editors who asked for the application of the general guideline here: "Relevant foreign language names (one used by at least 10% of sources in the English language or that is used by a group of people which used to inhabit this geographical place) are permitted
.", to do the same for other cities in the area, such as
Gjirokaster. Or else I will believe this to be a
WP:BadFaith case of
Double Standards. I don't even want to read the past conversations on those article's talk pages and rather propose here a
Gordian knot-cutting proposal that everybody involved in this dispute, respects the guideline, and thus, add Albanian names in Greek towns where Albanian populations are still living, and add Greek names in Albanian towns where Greek populations are still living. Who does agree with me in keeping the articles in an area consistent with each other and in line with the
Wikipedia's Naming Conventions regarding Alternate Names? ---
❖ SilentResident ❖ (
talk ✉ |
contribs ✎)
08:49, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
Ethnic minorities are also found in Greece and are fully recognized.are you kidding me right now? Also, Albania's minority rights are not comparable to Greece's by any means.
are you kidding me right now? Also, Albania's minority rights are not comparable to Greece's by any means. Perhaps Turkey's are." I am presenting here the Civil Liberties and Religious Freedom Indexes for the year 2021 so that the Wikipedia community can assess them and see how Super Dromaeosaurus's statements about the human rights/religious rights situation in countries is indeed as comparable as the editor claims to be:
The name section appears in need of corrections & upgrades since the current text isn't supported by the available inline refenrence. Alexikoua ( talk) 02:40, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
Speaking Albanian, for example, is not a predictor with respect to other matters of identity .. There are also long standing Christian Albanian (or Arvanitika speaking) communities both in Epirus and the Florina district of Macedonia with unquestioned identification with the Greek nation.Totally different situation from the Greeks in Albania, who identify as Greeks. Khirurg ( talk) 15:55, 14 June 2023 (UTC)