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Re. this new paragraph:
I had a little bit of an "oh dear" reaction, for three reasons.
In general I think it is correct to mention development as a prominent trait of classical music, but I'd like to see it done less contentiously than in the above paragraph. I will ponder what might be the right way to proceed and encourage other editors to do so. Cheers, Opus33 18:30, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I didn't expect that paragraph to be so controversial. I will do my best to address the concerns of Hyacinth and Opus33:
The Musical development article is a stub, which I may expand, after hashing these issues out a bit on this talk page.
I more or less acknowledged in the paragraph that not all Classical music undergoes development, by including the phrase "This can lend Classical music a quality of profundity..." Perhaps it were appropriate to include a disclaimer that some music that is called classical is intended only as entertainment -- but that may mean that the Mozart and Schubert dances were really popular music. As far as jazz is concerned, I have played it professionally, and it is true that improvisers will play around with motives, in a way generally thought of as "witty." However, that is not the same as the sort of sustained, rigorous development that you find in a Bach fugue, where each tiny modification is calculated toward achieving the final effect. It may be arguable whether this is completely unique in Classical music, but I am familiar with many genres -- Indian classical music, for example, as well as jazz -- and I can think of nothing comparable to the Bach fugue example, or the late quartets of Beethoven, which Norbert Brainin of the Amadeus Quartet once described as unique not only in the realm of music, but in all art.
Finally, I don't think that many people who are deeply familiar with music in general will argue that there is no qualitative difference between Classical and various other genres. Attributing it to "complexity" is obviously unsatisfactory. There are numerous pieces by Frank Zappa or the Mahavishnu Orchestra that are considerably more complex than Mozart's Ave verum corpus, but the latter is more poetic, and yes, profound. -- Herschelkrustofsky 21:28, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
While I also agree, personally, on the "profundity"; I definitely see the point in Opus33's and Hyacinth's replies. In addition, while I can understand the desire to find something which explains the obvious difference between classical music and other music, I don't think that "musical development" is it. I may be wrong, but I don't think that this is the outstanding distinguishing feature of a lot of great contemporary works (say, the later works of Luigi Nono, for example.) And, for what it's worth, Adorno critisized Wagner for his lack of musical development.
I think the problem arises from the fact that there are two orthogonal criteria for what is "classical music" (in the broad sense of the word): (1) music coming from a specific musical tradition which is socially practised in a particular way (musical performances where the audience remains sitting quiet). (2) music with certain inherent aesthetical qualities that require a particular mode of individual perception (i.e. music as an art).
The problem is that (1), being the "hard" distinguishing feature, is dissatisfactory, because it fails to explain the inherit qualities typical for this type of music as expressed in (2). Unfortunately, (2) is not necessarily confined to (1) and vice versa. (Frank Zappa has already been mentioned. No, personally I don't like Zappa at all, but I have to admit that there is some validity in some people's claim that some of Zappa's works are to be acknowledged as art. He crossed the border, anyways.)
So what? I think it's perfectly o.k. to live with this ambuigity and explain it rather than looking for an absolute criterion that forces both together. Such a criterion (as "musical development") is always bound to fail at some point, because art, being art, may always at some point transcend any such criterion.
-- Utis 10:26, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have re-written the paragraph in a way that I hope conforms to NPOV. I think that there must be an effective way of indentifying the distinction between Classical and other forms of music, but I agree, it is very tricky because it enters into territory which, correctly or not, is considered very subjective, such as, "what is Art?" In the process of rewriting this paragraph, I visited a lot of Wikipedia pages that I had hitherto not been to, such as Art, Idea, and Aesthetics -- and I found them all highly unsatisfactory. I suppose that these concepts may be inherently "encyclopedia-unfriendly."
Incidentally, although I'm the one who brought up Frank Zappa, I disagree that his music should be acknowledged as art. I do think that it should be acknowledged as complex.
Also, I linked the paragraph on development to the sub-heading on Classical music and folk music, because the relationship between the two helps to clarify the role of musical development. Although I didn't say so in my edit, all Classical music has its roots in some sort of folk music -- Classical music listeners are accustomed to German folk music as transformed by centuries of German composers, and a bit less so to Czech, Hungarian or American folk music similarly transformed. -- Herschelkrustofsky 12:34, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I didn't actually avoid "irony" -- I moved it to Musical development. "Paradox," on the other hand, I avoided, coming to agree with Opus33 that it was probably too outré for an encyclopedia -- it may constitute original research. I replaced the super-vague "poetic" with a specific quote from Schumann (although, to my mind, "poetic" ought to be a rather precise term, connoting mental activity in a higher mode than the merely logical or symbolic, such as, if I may indulge my POV, Wagner.)
I'd like to disagree with Hyacinth on equating "profundity" with "art." I think most readers would disagree that there is a greater degree of subjectivity in the definition of "art" (that does not mean that I personally would agree.) I think the operative phrase here is "a more complex relationship between emotions and ideas," which I do not think is necessarily insulting to pop music. I believe (having been there and done that) that most practioners of pop music believe that their main objective is to express emotions of a personal sort, rather than to make universal and world-historic observations about Man and Nature. Of course, there is plenty of music defined as Classical that is rather pedestrian as well -- but the exceptions are, well, exceptional. -- Herschelkrustofsky 20:58, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I agree entirely that this ought to be moved into the "nature of classical music section" -- although, part of the nature of classical music would be found in that which distinguishes it from other kinds of music. It's a subtle and contentious question, perhaps roughly analogous to the distinction between poetry and prose (an analogy for which I apologize in advance to anyone who finds it offensive). Incidentally, the Schumann quote, in context, is where he is complaining (privately, to Clara) about the mundane nature of much of what passed for classical music in his day, as opposed to his own attempts to compose something more meaningful.
One comment on Opus33's edit: I don't see posing modulation as one of the "other differences in complexity," since it usually takes place in the service of development.
This is an interesting editing task that will hopefully be a successful team effort. -- Herschelkrustofsky 00:30, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
-- Utis 09:41, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The article discusses Western classical music as if everything that were true about it were also true of all classical musics. To fix this, I think that this article should be split, so that whats true of most classical music is under 'classical music', and that which is specific to Western classical music is described under 'Western classical music'.
-- Johnkarp 08:40, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think that the disclaimer at the start of the article is quite adequate:
-- Herschelkrustofsky 14:55, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have two concerns here: ethnocentric bias, and practical issues.
Ethnocentrism: if a user looks up 'classical music' and comes away with the idea that its only a Western phenomenon, I think we'll have failed in giving information on 'classical music'.
Practical concerns: now where does one put info about classical music in general, now that 'classical music' is taken up? There's a similar problem for 'algebra'. What most people think of as 'algebra' is actually only a certain kind of algebra called 'elementary algebra'. Possible solutions they could have done:
The second way was chosen. For similar reasons, I think the article on classical music should be called 'classical music' and the article on western classical music should be called 'western classical music'.
-- Johnkarp 16:10, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
So how do people feel about it now? -- Johnkarp 05:33, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think there is a need for further disambiguation here. The "Classical" in the European/Western tradition is not just a reference to "serious music with a long formal tradition," but also a specific philosophical reference to the Greek classical period, one might say to Socrates. Perhaps this should be incorporated, carefully, in the "nature of Classical music" section. The same does not apply to art music of other cultures. I think it would be misleading to say that European/Western/etc. Classical music is simply one among many classical traditions. -- Herschelkrustofsky 13:58, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Of course Arabic, Chinese and Indian music have their own philosophical traditions. But the philosophies of say, Ibn Sina, Confucius or the Vedas are generally not called "Classical philosophy" -- that is usually (but not always -- see Classical) reserved for Greece (and probably should extend to the Egyptians who paved the way for the Greeks.) So, I am referring to a definition of "Classical" other than the ones you cite from Merriam-Webster -- although I agree with your proposal. -- Herschelkrustofsky 20:21, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hm, maybe. I am not convinced about the latter, but I don't want to start nitpicking. It's not as if I particularly liked the term "classical music", it's just that I find the alternatives worse (including "art music", much as I'd prefer that term myself). "European influenced classical music" or "The classical music tradition which started in Europe" would be precise, but I don't think that people would easily find it, if they are just vaguely looking for "Like Mozart or Prokofiev. You know. With orchestra, or with strings or piano. Stuff like 'the spring offering'"
"Western classical music" is the least worse option in this respect. But I am really a bit concerned about Eastern composers here. Would it be appropriate to say "Toshio Hosokawa writes Western classical music, but he does not write Western music."? If so, then I think "Western classical music" might be o.k.. It sounds rather awkward in my ears, though.
--- Utis 14:27, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Why is there no introduction? There was one once. Hyacinth 01:40, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Re. this new paragraph:
I had a little bit of an "oh dear" reaction, for three reasons.
In general I think it is correct to mention development as a prominent trait of classical music, but I'd like to see it done less contentiously than in the above paragraph. I will ponder what might be the right way to proceed and encourage other editors to do so. Cheers, Opus33 18:30, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I didn't expect that paragraph to be so controversial. I will do my best to address the concerns of Hyacinth and Opus33:
The Musical development article is a stub, which I may expand, after hashing these issues out a bit on this talk page.
I more or less acknowledged in the paragraph that not all Classical music undergoes development, by including the phrase "This can lend Classical music a quality of profundity..." Perhaps it were appropriate to include a disclaimer that some music that is called classical is intended only as entertainment -- but that may mean that the Mozart and Schubert dances were really popular music. As far as jazz is concerned, I have played it professionally, and it is true that improvisers will play around with motives, in a way generally thought of as "witty." However, that is not the same as the sort of sustained, rigorous development that you find in a Bach fugue, where each tiny modification is calculated toward achieving the final effect. It may be arguable whether this is completely unique in Classical music, but I am familiar with many genres -- Indian classical music, for example, as well as jazz -- and I can think of nothing comparable to the Bach fugue example, or the late quartets of Beethoven, which Norbert Brainin of the Amadeus Quartet once described as unique not only in the realm of music, but in all art.
Finally, I don't think that many people who are deeply familiar with music in general will argue that there is no qualitative difference between Classical and various other genres. Attributing it to "complexity" is obviously unsatisfactory. There are numerous pieces by Frank Zappa or the Mahavishnu Orchestra that are considerably more complex than Mozart's Ave verum corpus, but the latter is more poetic, and yes, profound. -- Herschelkrustofsky 21:28, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
While I also agree, personally, on the "profundity"; I definitely see the point in Opus33's and Hyacinth's replies. In addition, while I can understand the desire to find something which explains the obvious difference between classical music and other music, I don't think that "musical development" is it. I may be wrong, but I don't think that this is the outstanding distinguishing feature of a lot of great contemporary works (say, the later works of Luigi Nono, for example.) And, for what it's worth, Adorno critisized Wagner for his lack of musical development.
I think the problem arises from the fact that there are two orthogonal criteria for what is "classical music" (in the broad sense of the word): (1) music coming from a specific musical tradition which is socially practised in a particular way (musical performances where the audience remains sitting quiet). (2) music with certain inherent aesthetical qualities that require a particular mode of individual perception (i.e. music as an art).
The problem is that (1), being the "hard" distinguishing feature, is dissatisfactory, because it fails to explain the inherit qualities typical for this type of music as expressed in (2). Unfortunately, (2) is not necessarily confined to (1) and vice versa. (Frank Zappa has already been mentioned. No, personally I don't like Zappa at all, but I have to admit that there is some validity in some people's claim that some of Zappa's works are to be acknowledged as art. He crossed the border, anyways.)
So what? I think it's perfectly o.k. to live with this ambuigity and explain it rather than looking for an absolute criterion that forces both together. Such a criterion (as "musical development") is always bound to fail at some point, because art, being art, may always at some point transcend any such criterion.
-- Utis 10:26, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have re-written the paragraph in a way that I hope conforms to NPOV. I think that there must be an effective way of indentifying the distinction between Classical and other forms of music, but I agree, it is very tricky because it enters into territory which, correctly or not, is considered very subjective, such as, "what is Art?" In the process of rewriting this paragraph, I visited a lot of Wikipedia pages that I had hitherto not been to, such as Art, Idea, and Aesthetics -- and I found them all highly unsatisfactory. I suppose that these concepts may be inherently "encyclopedia-unfriendly."
Incidentally, although I'm the one who brought up Frank Zappa, I disagree that his music should be acknowledged as art. I do think that it should be acknowledged as complex.
Also, I linked the paragraph on development to the sub-heading on Classical music and folk music, because the relationship between the two helps to clarify the role of musical development. Although I didn't say so in my edit, all Classical music has its roots in some sort of folk music -- Classical music listeners are accustomed to German folk music as transformed by centuries of German composers, and a bit less so to Czech, Hungarian or American folk music similarly transformed. -- Herschelkrustofsky 12:34, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I didn't actually avoid "irony" -- I moved it to Musical development. "Paradox," on the other hand, I avoided, coming to agree with Opus33 that it was probably too outré for an encyclopedia -- it may constitute original research. I replaced the super-vague "poetic" with a specific quote from Schumann (although, to my mind, "poetic" ought to be a rather precise term, connoting mental activity in a higher mode than the merely logical or symbolic, such as, if I may indulge my POV, Wagner.)
I'd like to disagree with Hyacinth on equating "profundity" with "art." I think most readers would disagree that there is a greater degree of subjectivity in the definition of "art" (that does not mean that I personally would agree.) I think the operative phrase here is "a more complex relationship between emotions and ideas," which I do not think is necessarily insulting to pop music. I believe (having been there and done that) that most practioners of pop music believe that their main objective is to express emotions of a personal sort, rather than to make universal and world-historic observations about Man and Nature. Of course, there is plenty of music defined as Classical that is rather pedestrian as well -- but the exceptions are, well, exceptional. -- Herschelkrustofsky 20:58, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I agree entirely that this ought to be moved into the "nature of classical music section" -- although, part of the nature of classical music would be found in that which distinguishes it from other kinds of music. It's a subtle and contentious question, perhaps roughly analogous to the distinction between poetry and prose (an analogy for which I apologize in advance to anyone who finds it offensive). Incidentally, the Schumann quote, in context, is where he is complaining (privately, to Clara) about the mundane nature of much of what passed for classical music in his day, as opposed to his own attempts to compose something more meaningful.
One comment on Opus33's edit: I don't see posing modulation as one of the "other differences in complexity," since it usually takes place in the service of development.
This is an interesting editing task that will hopefully be a successful team effort. -- Herschelkrustofsky 00:30, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
-- Utis 09:41, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The article discusses Western classical music as if everything that were true about it were also true of all classical musics. To fix this, I think that this article should be split, so that whats true of most classical music is under 'classical music', and that which is specific to Western classical music is described under 'Western classical music'.
-- Johnkarp 08:40, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think that the disclaimer at the start of the article is quite adequate:
-- Herschelkrustofsky 14:55, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I have two concerns here: ethnocentric bias, and practical issues.
Ethnocentrism: if a user looks up 'classical music' and comes away with the idea that its only a Western phenomenon, I think we'll have failed in giving information on 'classical music'.
Practical concerns: now where does one put info about classical music in general, now that 'classical music' is taken up? There's a similar problem for 'algebra'. What most people think of as 'algebra' is actually only a certain kind of algebra called 'elementary algebra'. Possible solutions they could have done:
The second way was chosen. For similar reasons, I think the article on classical music should be called 'classical music' and the article on western classical music should be called 'western classical music'.
-- Johnkarp 16:10, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
So how do people feel about it now? -- Johnkarp 05:33, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think there is a need for further disambiguation here. The "Classical" in the European/Western tradition is not just a reference to "serious music with a long formal tradition," but also a specific philosophical reference to the Greek classical period, one might say to Socrates. Perhaps this should be incorporated, carefully, in the "nature of Classical music" section. The same does not apply to art music of other cultures. I think it would be misleading to say that European/Western/etc. Classical music is simply one among many classical traditions. -- Herschelkrustofsky 13:58, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Of course Arabic, Chinese and Indian music have their own philosophical traditions. But the philosophies of say, Ibn Sina, Confucius or the Vedas are generally not called "Classical philosophy" -- that is usually (but not always -- see Classical) reserved for Greece (and probably should extend to the Egyptians who paved the way for the Greeks.) So, I am referring to a definition of "Classical" other than the ones you cite from Merriam-Webster -- although I agree with your proposal. -- Herschelkrustofsky 20:21, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Hm, maybe. I am not convinced about the latter, but I don't want to start nitpicking. It's not as if I particularly liked the term "classical music", it's just that I find the alternatives worse (including "art music", much as I'd prefer that term myself). "European influenced classical music" or "The classical music tradition which started in Europe" would be precise, but I don't think that people would easily find it, if they are just vaguely looking for "Like Mozart or Prokofiev. You know. With orchestra, or with strings or piano. Stuff like 'the spring offering'"
"Western classical music" is the least worse option in this respect. But I am really a bit concerned about Eastern composers here. Would it be appropriate to say "Toshio Hosokawa writes Western classical music, but he does not write Western music."? If so, then I think "Western classical music" might be o.k.. It sounds rather awkward in my ears, though.
--- Utis 14:27, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Why is there no introduction? There was one once. Hyacinth 01:40, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)