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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Nominator's note: this is my first effort to promote a good quality article. I'm aware the article can always stand to improve. I solicited the help of outside editors to do some copyediting, but I didn't get as much help as I would have liked. I've tried to change all the sources to ones that are widely considered reliable, but there has been some resistance to removing some references. So I've decided to be WP:BOLD and nominate in spite of this article's few weaknesses. I am optimistic that with a little patience and a lot of constructive criticism, this article is not very far off from GA status. I'll be doing whatever I can to address your criticisms. Thanks! Randomran ( talk) 02:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
This article just hit "good article" status. I'm going to take a closer look at the FA requirements over the next few days and bring the article up to that standard. I think it's already there in a lot of ways. But we'll see. Randomran ( talk) 17:00, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
As promised, I tentatively started a draft in which I've edited the article for style (I'm not concerning myself with content, as I don't have time currently to do the research). However, I feel hesitant about including it, as a lot of removal of material is involved. I feel that a lot of points are being made that aren't relevant to the article, or were just added because you found a reference that says it. I'll reply later when I have soething more concrete. SharkD ( talk) 18:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I notice the section about tech trees once again has the FreeOrion image, which I replaced with one from Civ 3 because at thumb size the FreeOrion image has too little contrast for the structure to be visible , and it's pretty hard to read when enlarged - it's not even good at full size when you play the game. So why not use the Civ 3 tech tree image?
I also notice that in "History" the image of the mid-1990s OS/2 version of Gal Civ has been replaced with one of Sid Meier. While I think Meier has a fair claim to be considered the greatest game designer of them all†, I think the OS/2 version of Gal Civ was more relevant because: it shows the birth of another long-running series that has always been highly regarded; the article is about "4X" in general, not about the Civ series or Sid M.
†My other nomination would be Blizzard, for consistently high success with the -Craft series and Diablo, but I think Meier should win by half a length.
The point about Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg needs to be resolved vey soon, as it is in danger of being deleted as an orphan. -- Philcha ( talk) 08:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
With respect to http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/galacticcivilizations?q=Galactic%20Civilizations in this version, the source does not seem to support:
Jappalang ( talk) 07:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Congratulations to everyone who helped this article reach FA-Status, from the most detailed research to the smallest copy-edit. We all did our part nicely! I have no idea what the next step is, but I guess we'll keep updating the history accordingly. (I get the feeling that Sins of a Solar Empire will get a few awards, if it doesn't get overshadowed by a release for StarCraft II.) Randomran ( talk) 01:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The article is a lot less bloated now than it was before. Congrats! SharkD ( talk) 14:54, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
"Gaming authorities such as 1UP.com have stated that 4X games are distinguished by their greater complexity and scale,[8] and their intricate use of diplomacy beyond the standard "friend or foe" seen in other strategy games."
Have 1UP published academic works on the topic? What justifies the moniker "authoritiesfapfapfap"? I thought they just review stuff and hand out prizes. Also, the word "authorities" is plural, yet there is only one reference to support the statement.
Also, I'm surprised Trade Wars is not mentioned. SharkD ( talk) 15:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Just came across this game. I'm not sure whether it could be called a 4X game. All the planets are initially visible (kind of like Space Empires, except without the inter-system travel), so the "Exploration" part would depend on what sorts of things are discovered when first visiting a planet. I.e. these could include: alien races/artefacts, resources, enemy installations, etc. SharkD ( talk) 10:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I placed a dubious template after source 15 upon reading the reviewers comments. It is my belief that the statement is not adequately supported by the source as there were multiple reasons cited for the low, middling and high scores, including interface and more notably AI problems (including enemy AI noted). As the AI when listed without that can include the enemy AI using that to support the statement is also dubious. 陣 内 Jinnai 21:24, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Last time I worked on this we got a lot of grief about use of FUR images, including a diplomacy img from Gal Civ or SE IV. Now the artcile has a diplomacy img from SoaSE, which is an RTS-4X hybrid. To avoid controversy, the article should use an img from a mainline 4X game, e.g. the one that came in for so much griping. -- Philcha ( talk) 10:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to have to throw my two cents in and say SoaSE is much more of a hybrid than a 4x. While the main author here evidently holds SoaSE in great esteem (which I can't disagree with, it's a very innovative game) SoaSE also seems to lean more to the RTS than the 4x side of things, which makes it a bit less appropriate here. I'd also appreciate some MORE distinguishment for SoaSE in this article: it is in fact a hybrid. Now that said, I went out, bought it, and played it, and enjoyed it as a result of this article and the author's high esteem thinking it WAS a rather innovative 4x with some RTS, instead of the other way around, a heavily leaning RTS hybrid. I'm not saying it has a lot of 4x elements, but it certainly isn't primarily 4x.
I copied and extended the table in List of strategy video games and created a new list: Chronology of 4X video games. You might want to check over it to see if there are any games that shouldn't be listed. SharkD ( talk) 02:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
strongly suggest adding this chronology to the main page for 4x games —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.78.203.56 ( talk) 19:16, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
I also notice a distinct lack of the rather popular 'Total War' series. Creative Assembly pretty much own the 4x world right now, it would be remiss not to at least mention them. -- 69.92.84.59 ( talk) 16:42, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I would go further stating that this article is written and maintained by either fans of Sword of the Stars or employees of Kereberos itself. I added S:TW in but it was deleted by the Sins of a Solar Empire douchelords who have turned portions of this into pretty much an advertisement for the game. Please note, Sins of a solar empire was NOT the first 4x game to have real time combat, Shogun Total War came out long before. What's more "the genre was refreshed by the appearance of Sword of the Stars[64], featuring a combination of a turn based strategy part and real-time tactical combat phase, both in 3D. Sword of the Stars was the first 4X game to offer a physical simulation in battles. Other unique features combined with reliable support enabled Sword of the Stars to quickly grow a loyal fan base." This is a ridiculous fanboy statement, especially in light of Total War's dominance of the 4x genre for the last decade. This article is written and maintained by fans of Sword of the Stars. littlemute ( talk) 16:47, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I was also suprised that rome: total war was mentioned, but shogun wasn't (since it was the first and the series and (apparently) it came out before sword of the starts. Is there a reason given why it was deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.90.226 ( talk) 17:44, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
How about having a sub-section for each of the 4Xs; for example:
There is already a bullet-list, but since this article's title is 4X, perhaps more attention should be given to the Xs, and a little less to which games are/aren't "4X", etc. Besides, with a concise explanation of each, a reader can decide what game(s) "qualify". Also: moving some otherwise extraneous info from other sections to here, would tidy-up the other sections a bit.
There aren't any examples that I can veritably cite at the moment, but the term '4X' has been used by game producers in ads, promos, packaging, etc. (This should remove ambiguity as far as definition for those specific games). I know Sid uses the term in promos, etc. Providing an example or two for this article might help as far as defining the term, and provide some etymological background. ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 ( talk) 19:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
I had a couple of minor issues.
Any ideas? Thanks.— RJH ( talk) 15:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
This sentence: 4X games do not typically feature a campaign or scripted narrative, as this would interfere with the freedom of building a massive empire over multiple hours of gameplay.[18] cites a review of a single game. In my experience, many, if not most, do have a mode for campaign(s); or sometimes individual missions/scenarios. Often, these are included in an expansion pack; or can be downloaded as player-created scenarios, etc. The use of "feature" in the sentence might be accurate, but is somewhat weasel-deceptive. ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 ( talk) 20:04, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I'll start the ball rolling, re: Idea: (above):
Sorry about cluttering this page with a draft, but as an non-registered user, I don't have a permanent sandbox or whatever to link to. ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 ( talk) 21:20, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
You explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate. Why isn't it included?
-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.152.230 ( talk) 01:49, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm surprised that Classic Empire isn't included on here. It is the first 4x game, predates Civilization by nearly two decades, and includes nearly all of the features found in later games. 14.201.88.100 ( talk) 00:53, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
They are called "Civ-style" or "Civilization-style" games. Nobody calls them 4X style games, that is ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.221.255.62 ( talk) 15:19, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
I think Europa universalis series should be included in this article,particlarly in the history of the development of 4x games. Could some "historian" fill that part please? EU3 is as good as Civ4 for many niche players and deserves a mention here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.61.83.61 ( talk) 21:39, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
EU is a great series, but is a prime example of the Grand Strategy genre, not the 4x genre. EU includes all of the "X"s in 4X, but is much more complex and detailed, as are the other Paradox Interactive games running on similar engines. 14.201.88.100 ( talk) 00:50, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Also surprised not to see a mention of the EU series here. Anyway, here are some sources mentioning EU as a 4X game: [1] [2]. – Elisson • T • C • 16:43, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Would this article benefit from the addition of a list or table of games that meet the criteria for inclusion in this class of games?
For Example:
Title | Developer | Publisher | Genre | Year Released | Year Last Updated | Latest Version | Still in Production | Platform(s) | Mode |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Example | Example | Example | Example | Example | Example | Example | Example | Example | Example |
Zentinal ( talk) 21:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
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Hi, while I was reading through this, it seemed like the opening to the article was probably a bit too long for the initial summary, and some things were repeated several times throughout the article. Additionally, it seems as though some games are mentioned a bit too frequently throughout the article (particularly Galactic Civilizations and Master of Orion), and the layout could really use some condensing and re-ordering overall. This doesn't seem even close to Featured Article status anymore. 216.113.160.68 ( talk) 05:27, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
Is there such thing as a first person 4X game? *Dual Universe* — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:601:9200:1D0:8856:5208:B526:57C2 ( talk) 19:33, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
4X#Complexity
Currently: "4X games are known for their complex gameplay[16][17] and strategic depth"
Assuming we measure "complexity" by "number of possible moves", a game like Civilization IV certainly contains more possible moves/decisions then chess does. So technically speaking it could be called more complex then chess. Then again, maybe it is so complex, that most players don't bother with the complexity, but simply take decisions based on the current phase of the moon. Especially the concealment takes a lot of complexity out of any game. User:ScotXW t@lk 14:43, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
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It doesn't tell me when this term was invented. I've never heard of it before, so I presume it's pretty new. Yet the history section makes it sound like it's as old as video games. 124.190.192.20 ( talk) 08:16, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
Judging by the last time this section was updated, I was wondering if an update of influential 4X games in the market. Or if a simple list of prevoyant 4X games would be worth introducing. -- EnigmaticWikiwriter ( talk) 01:16, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 3 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): EnigmaticWikiwriter.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 13:07, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Nominator's note: this is my first effort to promote a good quality article. I'm aware the article can always stand to improve. I solicited the help of outside editors to do some copyediting, but I didn't get as much help as I would have liked. I've tried to change all the sources to ones that are widely considered reliable, but there has been some resistance to removing some references. So I've decided to be WP:BOLD and nominate in spite of this article's few weaknesses. I am optimistic that with a little patience and a lot of constructive criticism, this article is not very far off from GA status. I'll be doing whatever I can to address your criticisms. Thanks! Randomran ( talk) 02:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
This article just hit "good article" status. I'm going to take a closer look at the FA requirements over the next few days and bring the article up to that standard. I think it's already there in a lot of ways. But we'll see. Randomran ( talk) 17:00, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
As promised, I tentatively started a draft in which I've edited the article for style (I'm not concerning myself with content, as I don't have time currently to do the research). However, I feel hesitant about including it, as a lot of removal of material is involved. I feel that a lot of points are being made that aren't relevant to the article, or were just added because you found a reference that says it. I'll reply later when I have soething more concrete. SharkD ( talk) 18:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I notice the section about tech trees once again has the FreeOrion image, which I replaced with one from Civ 3 because at thumb size the FreeOrion image has too little contrast for the structure to be visible , and it's pretty hard to read when enlarged - it's not even good at full size when you play the game. So why not use the Civ 3 tech tree image?
I also notice that in "History" the image of the mid-1990s OS/2 version of Gal Civ has been replaced with one of Sid Meier. While I think Meier has a fair claim to be considered the greatest game designer of them all†, I think the OS/2 version of Gal Civ was more relevant because: it shows the birth of another long-running series that has always been highly regarded; the article is about "4X" in general, not about the Civ series or Sid M.
†My other nomination would be Blizzard, for consistently high success with the -Craft series and Diablo, but I think Meier should win by half a length.
The point about Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg needs to be resolved vey soon, as it is in danger of being deleted as an orphan. -- Philcha ( talk) 08:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
With respect to http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/galacticcivilizations?q=Galactic%20Civilizations in this version, the source does not seem to support:
Jappalang ( talk) 07:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Congratulations to everyone who helped this article reach FA-Status, from the most detailed research to the smallest copy-edit. We all did our part nicely! I have no idea what the next step is, but I guess we'll keep updating the history accordingly. (I get the feeling that Sins of a Solar Empire will get a few awards, if it doesn't get overshadowed by a release for StarCraft II.) Randomran ( talk) 01:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The article is a lot less bloated now than it was before. Congrats! SharkD ( talk) 14:54, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
"Gaming authorities such as 1UP.com have stated that 4X games are distinguished by their greater complexity and scale,[8] and their intricate use of diplomacy beyond the standard "friend or foe" seen in other strategy games."
Have 1UP published academic works on the topic? What justifies the moniker "authoritiesfapfapfap"? I thought they just review stuff and hand out prizes. Also, the word "authorities" is plural, yet there is only one reference to support the statement.
Also, I'm surprised Trade Wars is not mentioned. SharkD ( talk) 15:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Just came across this game. I'm not sure whether it could be called a 4X game. All the planets are initially visible (kind of like Space Empires, except without the inter-system travel), so the "Exploration" part would depend on what sorts of things are discovered when first visiting a planet. I.e. these could include: alien races/artefacts, resources, enemy installations, etc. SharkD ( talk) 10:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I placed a dubious template after source 15 upon reading the reviewers comments. It is my belief that the statement is not adequately supported by the source as there were multiple reasons cited for the low, middling and high scores, including interface and more notably AI problems (including enemy AI noted). As the AI when listed without that can include the enemy AI using that to support the statement is also dubious. 陣 内 Jinnai 21:24, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Last time I worked on this we got a lot of grief about use of FUR images, including a diplomacy img from Gal Civ or SE IV. Now the artcile has a diplomacy img from SoaSE, which is an RTS-4X hybrid. To avoid controversy, the article should use an img from a mainline 4X game, e.g. the one that came in for so much griping. -- Philcha ( talk) 10:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to have to throw my two cents in and say SoaSE is much more of a hybrid than a 4x. While the main author here evidently holds SoaSE in great esteem (which I can't disagree with, it's a very innovative game) SoaSE also seems to lean more to the RTS than the 4x side of things, which makes it a bit less appropriate here. I'd also appreciate some MORE distinguishment for SoaSE in this article: it is in fact a hybrid. Now that said, I went out, bought it, and played it, and enjoyed it as a result of this article and the author's high esteem thinking it WAS a rather innovative 4x with some RTS, instead of the other way around, a heavily leaning RTS hybrid. I'm not saying it has a lot of 4x elements, but it certainly isn't primarily 4x.
I copied and extended the table in List of strategy video games and created a new list: Chronology of 4X video games. You might want to check over it to see if there are any games that shouldn't be listed. SharkD ( talk) 02:54, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
strongly suggest adding this chronology to the main page for 4x games —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.78.203.56 ( talk) 19:16, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
I also notice a distinct lack of the rather popular 'Total War' series. Creative Assembly pretty much own the 4x world right now, it would be remiss not to at least mention them. -- 69.92.84.59 ( talk) 16:42, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I would go further stating that this article is written and maintained by either fans of Sword of the Stars or employees of Kereberos itself. I added S:TW in but it was deleted by the Sins of a Solar Empire douchelords who have turned portions of this into pretty much an advertisement for the game. Please note, Sins of a solar empire was NOT the first 4x game to have real time combat, Shogun Total War came out long before. What's more "the genre was refreshed by the appearance of Sword of the Stars[64], featuring a combination of a turn based strategy part and real-time tactical combat phase, both in 3D. Sword of the Stars was the first 4X game to offer a physical simulation in battles. Other unique features combined with reliable support enabled Sword of the Stars to quickly grow a loyal fan base." This is a ridiculous fanboy statement, especially in light of Total War's dominance of the 4x genre for the last decade. This article is written and maintained by fans of Sword of the Stars. littlemute ( talk) 16:47, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
I was also suprised that rome: total war was mentioned, but shogun wasn't (since it was the first and the series and (apparently) it came out before sword of the starts. Is there a reason given why it was deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.90.226 ( talk) 17:44, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
How about having a sub-section for each of the 4Xs; for example:
There is already a bullet-list, but since this article's title is 4X, perhaps more attention should be given to the Xs, and a little less to which games are/aren't "4X", etc. Besides, with a concise explanation of each, a reader can decide what game(s) "qualify". Also: moving some otherwise extraneous info from other sections to here, would tidy-up the other sections a bit.
There aren't any examples that I can veritably cite at the moment, but the term '4X' has been used by game producers in ads, promos, packaging, etc. (This should remove ambiguity as far as definition for those specific games). I know Sid uses the term in promos, etc. Providing an example or two for this article might help as far as defining the term, and provide some etymological background. ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 ( talk) 19:02, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
I had a couple of minor issues.
Any ideas? Thanks.— RJH ( talk) 15:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
This sentence: 4X games do not typically feature a campaign or scripted narrative, as this would interfere with the freedom of building a massive empire over multiple hours of gameplay.[18] cites a review of a single game. In my experience, many, if not most, do have a mode for campaign(s); or sometimes individual missions/scenarios. Often, these are included in an expansion pack; or can be downloaded as player-created scenarios, etc. The use of "feature" in the sentence might be accurate, but is somewhat weasel-deceptive. ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 ( talk) 20:04, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I'll start the ball rolling, re: Idea: (above):
Sorry about cluttering this page with a draft, but as an non-registered user, I don't have a permanent sandbox or whatever to link to. ~Eric F 184.76.225.106 ( talk) 21:20, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
You explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate. Why isn't it included?
-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.24.152.230 ( talk) 01:49, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm surprised that Classic Empire isn't included on here. It is the first 4x game, predates Civilization by nearly two decades, and includes nearly all of the features found in later games. 14.201.88.100 ( talk) 00:53, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
They are called "Civ-style" or "Civilization-style" games. Nobody calls them 4X style games, that is ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.221.255.62 ( talk) 15:19, 24 July 2013 (UTC)
I think Europa universalis series should be included in this article,particlarly in the history of the development of 4x games. Could some "historian" fill that part please? EU3 is as good as Civ4 for many niche players and deserves a mention here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.61.83.61 ( talk) 21:39, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
EU is a great series, but is a prime example of the Grand Strategy genre, not the 4x genre. EU includes all of the "X"s in 4X, but is much more complex and detailed, as are the other Paradox Interactive games running on similar engines. 14.201.88.100 ( talk) 00:50, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
Also surprised not to see a mention of the EU series here. Anyway, here are some sources mentioning EU as a 4X game: [1] [2]. – Elisson • T • C • 16:43, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Would this article benefit from the addition of a list or table of games that meet the criteria for inclusion in this class of games?
For Example:
Title | Developer | Publisher | Genre | Year Released | Year Last Updated | Latest Version | Still in Production | Platform(s) | Mode |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Example | Example | Example | Example | Example | Example | Example | Example | Example | Example |
Zentinal ( talk) 21:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
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Hi, while I was reading through this, it seemed like the opening to the article was probably a bit too long for the initial summary, and some things were repeated several times throughout the article. Additionally, it seems as though some games are mentioned a bit too frequently throughout the article (particularly Galactic Civilizations and Master of Orion), and the layout could really use some condensing and re-ordering overall. This doesn't seem even close to Featured Article status anymore. 216.113.160.68 ( talk) 05:27, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
Is there such thing as a first person 4X game? *Dual Universe* — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:601:9200:1D0:8856:5208:B526:57C2 ( talk) 19:33, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
4X#Complexity
Currently: "4X games are known for their complex gameplay[16][17] and strategic depth"
Assuming we measure "complexity" by "number of possible moves", a game like Civilization IV certainly contains more possible moves/decisions then chess does. So technically speaking it could be called more complex then chess. Then again, maybe it is so complex, that most players don't bother with the complexity, but simply take decisions based on the current phase of the moon. Especially the concealment takes a lot of complexity out of any game. User:ScotXW t@lk 14:43, 19 February 2017 (UTC)
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It doesn't tell me when this term was invented. I've never heard of it before, so I presume it's pretty new. Yet the history section makes it sound like it's as old as video games. 124.190.192.20 ( talk) 08:16, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
Judging by the last time this section was updated, I was wondering if an update of influential 4X games in the market. Or if a simple list of prevoyant 4X games would be worth introducing. -- EnigmaticWikiwriter ( talk) 01:16, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
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